Good! The more you talk about it the more voters will swing to Obama. Keep it up! You are handing the Democrats votes!!!!
Mayor Daly (the son of the former Mayor Daley, a man famous for busting the heads of protesters), does not have a problem with Ayers and worked with him closely:
"I also know Bill Ayers. He worked with me in shaping our now nationally-renowned school reform program. He is a nationally-recognized distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois/Chicago and a valued member of the Chicago community.
I don't condone what he did 40 years ago but I remember that period well. It was a difficult time, but those days are long over. I believe we have too many challenges in Chicago and our country to keep re-fighting 40 year old battles." ~ Mayor Daley
The Board of Directors that the two served on (Obama and Ayers) also included a number of Republicans. It was a group to combat poverty (I know many republicans find that evil in and of itself), and you can not control who you work with just as you can not control who you serve with in Congress.
William Ayers, contrary to Fixed News reports, has expressed regrets for some of the Weather Underground's actions. But Fixed News just likes to say over and over one single phrase "He thinks they didn't do enough." Well, that is correct, but what does it mean?
Here is Ayer's quote: "The one thing I don't regret is opposing the war in Vietnam with every ounce of my being.... When I say, 'We didn't do enough,' a lot of people rush to think, 'That must mean, "We didn't bomb enough shit."' But that's not the point at all. It's not a tactical statement, it's an obvious political and ethical statement. In this context, 'we' means 'everyone.'"
So, he had regrets, doing more does not mean simply "bombing more shit."
More importantly, News stations and a handful of newspapers have all concluded that there was no meaningful connection between the two men. But keep at it and watch all of the independents run to Obama!!!! Thanks!
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
Do you think all the copy and pastes and all the discussion will change any votes? It might be interesting or a diversion for some, but I seriously doubt it changes a single vote.
Re the quote from Dictator Daley as to soundness of his and his father's school system -- only narrow minded true believers will put any credibility in that. Daley cares about Daley, The Machine, taking care of his corrupt family and cronies, and a few signature buildings and parks in the Chicago Loop. Everything else is falling apart, including the El and the schools.
Mayor Daly was a Democrat. So now we have two democrats praising this terrorist and you say this will bring votes to the dems? What kind of logic is this?
So I guess in twenty years when Biden Laden will launch the next generation of US politicians and he presents his candidate for the US Presidency you will say "who cares, that was a long time ago", “talking about it will get him votes great”???
Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master
hahahahhaha now your quoting Daley. That family is so currupt...Anybody ever take the Dan Ryan freeway into the city??? Jesus fucking crist they have been doing construction on that for the past 10 years and pocketing the money. Suddenly i feel alot better about Bill ayers after readying that quote from Daley..
Hey tasco, see the monkey over there...it prevents me from responding to your moronic insinuation in the manner that such a comment deserves. So, please read my mind because I would love to let you know how I feel about you right about now.
The Weather Underground killed how many innocent people? How many innocent people did John McCain kill? What was the government like when the Weather Underground was operating? How many innocent lives were lost in Vietnam, Cambodia, etc? How about September 11th, 1973 and the lives that innocent lives that were lost as a result? Hum...Kent State murders, Freddy Hampton and friends murdered, MLK pressured to commit suicide by the US government, police violence against peaceful protesters as well as against blacks and latinos, spying on civilians, etc. It was not a pretty time. That does not pardon the crimes that were committed by the Weather Underground...and again, I hope you can read my mind, tasco, for insinuating that I am alright with blowing up people. I am not.
I would assume that you are right billyb. I do not think he regrets setting bombs. And he may even wish that the group had set more...I do not know. I do know, however, that it is well documented that the group went to great lengths on most occasions to make sure that buildings were evacuated and that nobody would be in the area so that the bombs would destroy property without resulting in fatalities. Maybe he regrets the occasions where certain members got careless, or failed to be concerned about the lives of innocent people...again, I do not know.
I did not bring up Daley as if he was a patron saint...his father hated the protesters, especially the Weather Underground and groups affiliated with them. His father's most famous contribution to our history is probably his decision to unleash police forces to bash in the skulls of students and protesters. So, what if he was a Democrat? The father, a democrat, was a terrible individual. His son, I do not doubt that he is self-serving.
Every investigation has come to the conclusion that there was/is no meaningful relationship between the two men. So, have fun...FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR!!!!!
Oh, by the way...that little killer of wolves from Alaska, she is married to a man who joined a party that wanted Alaska to be its own country. And she praised the party in a video. So, Todd Palin joined a party whose founder said things like:
"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."
"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government...and I won't be buried under their damn flag..."
So, if she wants to play guilt by association, so be it. There is a ton of mud that can be piled on her and her running mate in this manner. We can talk about Reverend Hagee and Rod Parsley and racists like Rod Quinn that McCain so proudly employs.
So go ahead, talk about an individual that won the Chicago Citizen of the Year award in 1997, a man who is a professor at a respected University, a man who has spent time working on the boards of charities to fight poverty...go ahead and drudge up the same stories that voters already heard during the primaries, but chose Obama over Hillary despite this knowledge. And of course, these stories come up again when McCain is sinking. Sling the mud boys...
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
"The Weather Underground killed how many innocent people? How many innocent people did John McCain kill? "
So you are comparing somebody in the military fighting for his country in a theatre of war chosen by his civilian commanders to a domestic terrorist blowing up his own people and institutions? You don't se a difference there?
"MLK pressured to commit suicide by the US government"
???, so MLK paid James Earl Ray to shoot him in that Memphis motel balcony?
Sure there are differences, billyb...Nevertheless, in many ways, innocent lives are innocent lives to me. Do you think putting on a uniform and obeying the orders of a fallible human being somehow justifies the killing of innocent civilians? Terrorism is an interesting word and it can be applied to the actions of the State. It seems that many feel the actions of the State at the time, even actions against its own people were detestable. And God knows our government certainly supported terrorists and what does that say about its culpability...it all gets kind of muddy doesn't it? But of course we can find ways to glorify the actions of those domestic terrorists in foreign countries and we can find ways to vilify the actions of our own domestic terrorists...in some cases the characterizations are accurate and in others they are exaggerated and or manipulated. Are there differences between the soldier that kills innocent foreign civilians and the domestic terrorist that kills the civilians of his own country...sure, there are differences.
The FBI did all it could to discredit MLK. Thousands of FBI memos concerning King have been released and I believe he is a popular character that has received quite a bit of attention from scholars as well as authors. Of course COINTELPRO was involved in tons of nefarious projects, I just chose MLK because I assumed it would be a well known case. I guess not. Anyway, do a little googling billyb and I am sure you'll find access to a plethora of evidence that illustrates the fact that our government (FBI) sent a letter to MLK days before he was to accept the Nobel Prize that stated that he better commit suicide or they would release evidence that he had an affair.
Here are some excerpts that I found from an article on CNN.
"You are a colossal fraud and an evil, vicious one at that." The letter went on to say, "The American public ... will know you for what you are -- an evil, abnormal beast," and "Satan could not do more."
The letter's threat was ominous, if not specific: "King you are done." Some have theorized the intent of the letter was to drive King to commit suicide in order to avoid personal embarrassment. "King, there is only one thing left for you to do," the letter concluded. "You know what it is ... You better take it before your filthy, abnormal fraudulent self is bared to the nation."
Lovely, considering that Hoover was such a stellar individual.
But to clarify...pressured to commit suicide...understand, billyb? I did not say that he committed suicide...I am aware of April 4th.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
"But to clarify...pressured to commit suicide...understand, billyb?"
LC a better wording might have been, "hoping to pressure him into committing suicide", the way you worded it makes it sound like it was done deal. Also can you show any documnetation that that was the FBI's undisputable intent? Or is this just conjecture on your part, or something you came across whilst googling? I am not denying that they didn't harass him, or worse, but I have never heard this before. BTW, do you readily believe everything you come across when googling?
My parents pressured me to go to college directly out of high school. I did not. That does not change the fact that they pressured me. I assumed that you were aware of what took place on April 4th, but point taken, I could have been more clear. Do I really need to provide you with a document that directly states "hello, my name is J. Edgar Hoover and it is my expressed intention to convince MLK to kill himself"?
The information concerning the MLK case was not uncovered on my part by googling. I googled for you. The CNN website (I know, they are not reputable like FOX News), would probably not fabricate these quotes given that they are easily accessible. I found out about the case while reading scholarly journals and history books that directly quoted the FBI memos. Googling is not bad, one simply has to be critical about the sites the he or she visits. And in this case, I am certain that you will be able to find a reputable source.
Look at scholarly journals and historical books that include good source material, that is where I learned about the case.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
" I assumed that you were aware of what took place on April 4th"
I was aware, but I can't assume that annonymous people on the internet aew aware as well. Having said that I figured you knew, but it did give me pause. I'm not questioning the quotes you gave, as I am well aware of Dr. King's history with the FBI, but I am questioning your assertion that the harassment was intended to pressure him into suicide. It just seems a little far fetched and ludicrous ( more believable would have been that the FBI were the ones who put James Earl up to kill MLK), but we all have our own threshold of acceptance of what we hear.
"Do I really need to provide you with a document that directly states "hello, my name is J. Edgar Hoover and it is my expressed intention to convince MLK to kill himself"?"
Since I am pretty sure that wasn't the purpose, I am also pretty sure that no such document exists, but what I would like is if you could post a document were you read somebody besides you making that same assertion, so we can judge for ourselves how believable the source is.
Hum...you want me to dig up information that I learned years and years ago. Sorry. I will let you research it if you are so interested. If you choose not to...that is no skin off my back. I did not make the assertion above, that was quoted on CNN and they are quoting the letter of which their is a duplicate memo that was found in the FBI files. So, I provided you with one and I am sure if you want to you can find many more.
It sounds far fetched and ludicrous. Yes, it does doesn't it. It sounds far fetched and ludicrous that they would be spending so much time wire-tapping a civil rights leader. It seems far-fetched and ludicrous that they would do the same to a Beatle. It seems far-fetched and ludicrous that they would give LSD to fellow employees without their knowledge. It seems far-fetched and ludicrous that they would infiltrate the peace movement in order to incite acts of violence as a means of discrediting the movement.
Hum...you are pretty sure that was not the FBI's purpose. And the assassination of Fred Hampton? I am sure you will somehow try to rationalize that the purpose of the bullets fired point blank into his brain were not meant to kill him.
Here are some terms for you:
COINTELPRO
MKULTRA
United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities (aka the Church Committee...this is terribly long and dull, thousands of pages but it highlights some of the abuses of our Intelligence Agencies both here and abroad).
I am not a reference librarian nor am I a teacher. If I pointed you to books I doubt you would read them and judging from your comments it seems you are already well on your way to predetermining a conclusion. I hope I am wrong. It would be awesome to hear that you went to some University near by, talked to a reference librarian, looked at both primary and secondary sources, and read the material with an open mind.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
"Hey tasco, see the monkey over there...it prevents me from responding to your moronic insinuation in the manner that such a comment deserves. So, please read my mind because I would love to let you know how I feel about you right about now.
The Weather Underground killed how many innocent people? How many innocent people did John McCain kill?"
It seems a good chance that McCain killed nobody as he had enough trouble just keeping his airplane in the air.
Will `Ace' McCain Flame Out Again?
Insight on the News, March 20, 2000 by Kelly Patricia O'Meara
Over the years he's played many roles and worn many titles, including Navy aviator, prisoner of war, hero, congressman, U.S. senator, Washington insider, maverick outsider and, now, presidential candidate. But the one title of which few are aware is that of "service ace."
John Sidney McCain III is known among many of his Vietnam flight buddies as "Ace" McCain. This title has not been bestowed upon McCain because he destroyed five enemy aircraft. On the contrary: It was five on our side -- in fact, five of his own. Since throwing his hat into the presidential ring, the fact that McCain was graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy nearly at the bottom of his class has been publicized. His star-crossed flying, on the other hand, remains unknown to most.
De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal
LC, understood, no need for you to go on a wild goose chase for documents that probably that in likelyhood don't exist, but if you do come across some credible documentation I would like to see it.
You will note from the below article that the Clintons pardoned Weather Underground terrorists and that Obama never answers a question about his association with Ayers, but instead launches another attack, to avoid saying anything on the subject. A bit like Lcacique that has nothing to say about it, but plenty about McCain and Palin above, which is totally irrelevant to the Obama Ayers association.
"Hillary Clinton, Obama's rival in the tight Democratic race, jumped on the issue - and brought up the fact that Ayers's comments about not regretting his 1970s bombings happened to appear in The New York Times on Sept. 11, 2001. Obama shot back that Clinton's husband had pardoned or commuted the sentences of two other members of the Weather Underground."
De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal
De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal
"SOME have THEORIZED the intent of the letter was to drive King to commit suicide in order to avoid personal embarrassment"
Ok, now I understand why you can't post a credible source for this. I thought you were posting facts, not some unnamed person's THEORIES. Who are these "some" you are refering to anyway?
Are you kidding me? The government does destroy many of its documents, but there is a little thing called the Freedom of Information Act that allows the average citizen to obtain previously classified documents. Ever read the Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability by Peter Kornbluh? Of course not...Well the entire book is comprised of FBI and Government documents detailing US involvement in the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government in Chile. There are tons of documents available to people...but people do not read or care. Go to the library and talk to a reference librarian. Read.
Again, the quote above is from the FBI letter. This is documented all over the place.
Are we discussing Chile, or your assertion that the FBI was trying to get MLK to commit suicide? And you still have not posted anything to that effect, besides your own assertions. It is becoming quite obvious you can't back it up. Thus we get all these peripheral items, such as Chile et al....and this CNN link which has no mention of suicide> Where is the beef? The fact the the FBI acts in nefarious ways is not in question, so you don't need to convince me of that, that is, unless you need to do that to distract from the fact that you can't post anything to back up your suicide assertion.
"Some have theorized the intent of the letter was to drive King to commit suicide in order to avoid personal embarrassment"
Same thing you posted above, but who are these "some" that have "theorized"? Is that your source, "some"? Please tell me you have more than that? Anybody can theorize, do you have anything more substantive than some author stating that "some" have"theorized"? Is that what you base your opinons on?
And here is a quote and link from the US government:
The nature of the Bureau's campaign against Dr. King is vividly illustrated by one incident. Shortly after Director Hoover's press conference in November 1964, in which he referred to Dr. King as the country's "most notorious liar," (50) a package was mailed to Dr. King. It contained an anonymous diatribe against the civil rights leader and a copy of an electronic surveillance tape, apparently to lend credence to threats of exposure of derogatory personal information made in the letter. (51) The committee was unable to locate the original letter, but an apparently authentic copy was found in the files of Assistant Director Sullivan. The final paragraph clearly implied that suicide would be a suitable course of action for Dr. King:
King, there is only one thing left for you to do. You know what it is. You have just 34 days in which to do (this exact number has been selected for a specific reason, it, has definite practical significance). You are done. There is but one way out for you. You better take it before your filthy fraudulent self is bared to the Nation. (52)
In addition to Sullivan's admission of involvement in the scheme in testimony before the Senate select committee.7 (53) the committee received evidence raising the possibility that the package was delivered to Assistant to the Director Belmont prior to mailing.(55) If this was the case, the committee considered it highly likely that Director Hoover had before-the-fact knowledge of the action.
Well, I already gave you this source before (it was a quote, meaning that though it was printed on the CNN website, the original source was the US government).
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
So, our own government explains that the letter CLEARLY implied that King should commit suicide. And, regardless, MLK is quoted as saying that this is exactly how he interpreted the message. Especially, given everything else that had preceded this event.
Oh, billyb...you can lead a horse to water...
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
"The final paragraph clearly implied that suicide would be a suitable course of action for Dr. King"
Tha wasn't part of the documents, but rather an editorial comment based on a "copy" of a supposed document. You are getting closer, but still not enough.
An editorial by the US government which is privy to other documentation. Of course it is not enough...It would not be enough if I did present you with a hand written letter from J. Edgar Hoover...I mean, we couldn't be certain that J. Edgar wrote it. Keep that head buried deep, I am sure it helps you sleep at night.
Well, that supposed document was received by MLK...and others saw it as well...MLK was distraught about the contents and felt that he was being pressured to commit suicide...individuals spoke about it before the copy was found in the office of a government official...Sullivan (FBI) testified before a committee that he wrote and sent the original letter...
Again, bury it deep billyb.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
I know how much you "theorists" hate when logic is injected into one your little pet projects, but let's try some anyways. The instinct for survival is the strongest instinct humans have and we don't give up our lives easily, and certainly not because somebody is sending us "mean" correspondance. Now granted, there are some very weak willed individuals that could conseivably be induced into committing suicide by sending them mail, but then we would have to suppose that MLK was one such weak willed individual, and from most of what we have seen, he most certainly was not weak ( I will of course entartain any arguments that you might want to make as to his weakness). Secondly, it has been generally accepted that the FBI waged a campaign of disinformation against MLK, so unless the FBI really had the goods on MLK (and again, I am willing to hear what you know about that), most of us are in general agreement that the majority of what the FBI put out on MLK was a lie. So given the aforementioned, both the FBI and MLK had to know that they didn't have anything incriminatory on him. The FBI would know that they were sending him false accustions and MLK would know that they were full of shit, so how would either even consider suicide as possible outcome of that correspondence. BTW, I do sleep very well at night knowing that I don't swallow every tale I hear, then again I am not, as some on here, pre-disposed to believe everything as long as it dovetails with my preconceived notions.
I think African Americans, more so than the average Joe Six-Pack, had a reason or two to fear the government - FBI, Police, Justice System, etc. (i.e. Fred Hampton shot dead, but as I said before, that probably was not the FBI's purpose, right?). Let's see, I don't remember MLK's life as being as peachy as most peoples. He lived in a country where he was not afforded the same rights as his fair-skinned brothers and sisters, blacks were being killed and/or mutilated, black churches and homes were being bombed, he experienced police brutality, watched police dogs attack black children, caught a brick to the head on one occasion and rocks and bottles on many others, had crazy white honkies screaming obscenities at him all of the time, he claimed that the government was trying to kill him, and received CONSTANT death threats. Under these kinds of circumstances it is reasonable to believe that a person may be slightly more fragile than the average person. And yes, he seemed like a strong man publicly.
But the point is, MLK has said that he felt pressured to commit suicide. Those who were close to him, family/friends/associates, say that he felt he was being pressured to commit suicide. Scholars who have studied the case say that he was being pressured to commit suicide. And a government committee investigating the actions of our intelligence agency agrees that the government appears to have been pressuring him to commit suicide. Whether or not the FBI actually believed that it would work, who cares?
These are not whacko theorists as you insinuate. His friends and family, a majority of scholars, and the US government.
The FBI, along with the letter, sent audio tapes of MLK (allegedly) having sex with women other than his wife. MLK's wife is the one who opened the package.
To address an earlier comment, I was asked what Chile had to do with anything. Well, billyb implied that incriminating documents are most likely not available or that such documents do not exist. I was simply pointing out that documents, even incriminating ones, do in fact exist...and they do see daylight from time to time.
And tasco, the reason we are not talking about Ayers and Obama is because there is nothing to talk about. Catch up...the majority of Americans are way ahead of you.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
So, I have provided you with a wide variety of sources...how have you supported your argument? Exactly. Maybe you can dig up someone reputable like, I don't know, Hannity to argue the opposite viewpoint.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
You don't believe it and argue that it is not true even though you obviously have never informed yourself about the matter. What kind of logic is that? You were unaware that such a letter even existed. You argue your point without having any evidence or knowledge of the situation so as to provide support for your POV. And somehow I am supposed to believe that my argument is the less credible of the two and that I am naive. Neat.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal
So, what's the real or alleged dirt on MLK? All I've ever read - and I've not read much - is that he cheated during his university days (plagarism), cheated on his wife repeatedly - not the worst crime in the world but worse if you're a pastor - and had some loose associations with cocktail party Commies, but so did a lot of people during those days.
Where oh where is Gringoloid to tell us the real story?
"All I've ever read - and I've not read much - is that he cheated during his university days (plagarism), cheated on his wife repeatedly - not the worst crime in the world but worse if you're a pastor - and had some loose associations with cocktail party Commies"
Are people with common sense supposed to believe that this is enough to induce a man who is strong enough to become the preeminent leader of his people to commit suicide? If you told me that the FBI hired James Earl to kill him, I would believe it, if you told me that they sent him exploding cigars, I would believe it, if you told me they were trying to poison him, I would believe it, but when you tell me that they sent him some nasty letters and they thought that would make him kill himself, well I have some trouble swallowing that. LC, you can post all the alleged copies of supposed originals and their accompanying editorial commentary by somebody whose motivation we do not know, but it still does not pass the smell test, and I am sorry that it gets you so upset that we don't all follow you over that metaphorical cliff.
This was one of many things that "they" did. To completely ignore the reality of Kings tense/difficult life, which was far from pleasant as any ordinary person can see, is convenient. Have you lived for 12 years knowing that you are a target? Has your family ever been threatened? If so, repeatedly for years? Have you ever walked the street and had people walk up to you and punch you in the face and referred to you hatefully? Have you ever had the government refer to you in the media as 'the most notorious liar in the country"? Have you received death threats on a daily basis? Have you lived with the knowledge that the government is watching your every move with the awareness that that they have taken out less "dangerous" people? Have you watched your own people turn on you in favor of more aggressive leaders, booing you and calling you a loser at rallies? You clearly have no idea what struggles and challenges he faced. Everyone close to him has indicated that he was wiped out emotionally, he did not sleep, couldn't eat, he was tense, worried, etc. You think you know how this man felt inside because you have watched the "I have a dream" speech? Give me a break.
The FBI has believed all sorts of things...and whether or not they believed that this tactic would be a slam dunk, in reality, is beside the point. They probably wished he would kill himself, yet been satisfied if it had other effects (i.e. made him less vocal, silenced him, terrified him, etc.). But as I have pointed out, the general consensus is that they wanted him to take his life. And men, under much less stress, have been known to take their own lives. More importantly, he interpreted it as such a message. But I will side with the individuals who have spent their lives researching it, the government that investigated it, and the people who lived it rather than you who thinks they can determine the truth with nothing more than a sense of smell.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
"Has your family ever been threatened? If so, repeatedly for years? "
As a matter of fact, almost on a weekly basis for a few years. Been threatened, kidnapped, shot at, killed, because we refused to pay the vacuna, but that didn't make any of us want to help them out and do ourselves in, instead we eventually sold our beloved ranch. My grandfather was mayor of Pereira when Gaitan was killed and three days after the Bogotazo a mob shot up his house and tried to burn it down (with him. grandma, my mom, a couple of uncles. several grandkids and the domestic help inside), he recieved death threats daily after that, until he resigned, and instead of killing himself, he moved to Cali. Most of the stuff MLK was into was public knowledge, at least in his circle, so what would a few threats to out him mean anyways? So the picture you are painting of MLK, and I assume you know the inner workings of his mental state at the time that the rest of us don't, was such a mess, that the FBI figured a few unfriendly letters would be enough to do the trick? You are so immersed in the trees of you documents that you can't see the forest, the most logical and obvious intent of the harrassment campaign, which was to make him quit the cause, to give up the mantle.
I never said I knew the inner workings of his mind, you implied that you did. And what you said does not match with what everyone around him has said about his state at this time. I referred to what his friends and family have said...and I think they knew him better than you...especially since you admittedly know little about the case. So again, I will trust his family over your assessment. It is slightly foolish to argue that the only thing the man was struggling with was a handful of affairs that were being brought to light. It is also silly to argue that this was the only thing that the FBI was doing at the time to torment MLK.
So you are willing to accept that they would kill him, but not that they would try to encourage him into taking his own life. Again, it does not matter whether or not they thought it would do the trick. What if they sent the letter, purposefully vague, thinking that it would not result in a suicide but hoping that it would scare him? If they wanted him to step down, the logical thing would have been to say..."quit the cause." The obvious intent of the letter? Hum...as I said, most people feel that the message was for him to take his life. Again, these conclusions were reached by people with a lot more knowledge about the issue...so I am sorry...you are going to have to do a better job than just telling me what is logical to you, a person who admittedly knows next to nothing about the issue.
Sorry about the family, I should have known better to go there given that many of my friends from Colombia have had the similar experiences...one even being a relative of Gaitán. Anyway, sorry.
Look billyb, I highly doubt that you'll bring any evidence to the table that will convince me. You are not satisfied with my evidence. We have been here before. Do you feel like dragging out this tiny strain of my original comment? I don't.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
LC, no need to apologize, you meant no harm, as you know it's just a fact of life in Colombia.. I have no evidence or intent to convince you, just saying I'm not convinced, but you are right, let's meet up in another argument ;)
I know I did not offend you and am certain that you were not offended for the reason you acknowledge. I simply sympathize with what your family had to go through, knowing that some of my friends (especially older friends) still have trouble talking about some of the things that they experienced back then.
Mongo, thank you. billyb and I have gone at each other on more than one occasion; however, in most cases we keep it pretty civil. I respect him, even though I think it is strange that he tries to win arguments employing his nose (just kidding, billyb). He is, in all honesty, a cut above most of the people I disagree with here on pbh. For example, I know I could sent down with him, discuss subjects where we have differing opinions, and at the end of it all, still feel happy to buy him a beer and talk passionately about something we both love: Colombia (not that we don't argue about Colombia...jajaja). I cannot say that about everyone here.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal
shit, this is a darn good thread that i just opened by accident..........tinto even asked where i was........i'm flattered.
this is a busy week on wall st.......and you guys know i've been waiting for this week for a long time. funny thing though, i haven't heard from anyone on my long time economic predictions that were totally based in conspiracy theory.
Tasco, do you have an opinion of your own or is your mind controlled by Fixed News?
Ayers was the counterpoint to an extremely violent and corrupt government, he behaved in a poor manner and has regretted certain aspects of his past, he turned himself in and was never convicted, he is a college professor, he won Chicago's citizen of the year award in 1997, he served on a charitable board with Obama that included tons of Republicans and was founded by a friend of Ronald Reagan: William Annenberg, etc. etc. etc. So what?
And please, bring up Reverend Wright again. I agreed with almost everything (but not everything) the man has said...even in the edited clips that play on Faux News. The God Damn America clip is everyone's favorite...please tell me, by utilizing the bible, where it says that God would bless Hiroshima or any such acts that the United States has taken part in. And also, explain to me what is so hard to comprehend about the very logical idea that killing groups of people often causes survivors to harbor negative feelings and desires to retaliate. While you are at it, please defend McCain's religious associate's claims that Katrina and other natural disasters are nothing more than God's way of punishing homosexuals and those who tolerate them. Or his other famous claim (Hagee) that Catholics are the anti-christ. Oh...and Palin's religious leader who claims that being critical of Bush will result in a person being sent to hell.
So, if you are going to play the association game...it is easy to bring up tons of people that are even more directly associated with McCain who has had years and years to acquire a swarthy list of associates. And Palin's closet is looking pretty cluttered with nut jobs as well.
The people bringing this crap up are as acting as stupid as McCain when he brought up temperament. First, even Republicans call McCain erratic and they say he is quick tempered (I am putting it mildly). But McCain perfectly set up Obama, in what had to be the best moment of a boring debate, so that Obama could sock him directly in the chin with "Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" as well as the Korea and Iraq statements that McCain has spit out. Now, idiots want to play the association game and they are simply walking directly into a stronger counter-punch. Have fun!
This tactic will not gain any undecided voters. The reason it is being employed is because the Republicans are seriously in jeopardy of losing their base. The gap is widening...Republicans are knocking McCain for his economic policy ideas and McCain was never appealing to the base in the first place, hence his nutty sidekick. Well, it is falling apart. So, out with the cleverly disguised racism comments and attempts to link Obama with terrorism...and you cheers amongst the ignorant faithful who scream out "kill him [Obama]" at rallies. But that does not play well to Americans whose knuckles are no longer dragging on the cement.
Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!
