Practise what you preach

Plato says on Nov 5, 2007, 05:31:

Interesting. I've taken JWs to task many times and as a result they don't knock on my door any more. I'm supposedly forsaken or something.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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gringolondinense says on Nov 5, 2007, 05:39:

maybe they dont feel the need to bother you anymore lol!

This article was interesting though, because many doctors I know that have performed kidney transplants tell me that JWs usually accept blood transfusions when they are told they will die without it.

Seems like this woman stuck to her guns though.

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kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 05:40:

I just tell them I'm a Satanist.

Or a Catholic, if I really want to upset them :)

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Plato says on Nov 5, 2007, 05:47:

Indeed. Telling them you're a Catholic is worse since most JWs are former disgruntled Catholics.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 05:52:

I was once in Southampton at the tail end of a JWs rally. The streets were flooded with them as they left the stadium. One thing I noticed was that a very high proportion of family groups had a member who was either physically or mentally handicapped.

I've often wondered since, if joining the JWs, or any other radical sect, is quite often a reaction to human tragedy.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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dwmte7 says on Nov 5, 2007, 06:08:

i, like plato, am catholic. my convictions have absolutely NOTHING to do with my faith or religious beliefs. i neither donate blood nor receive transfusion. also, i neither donate nor receive another's organs. GOD so graciously gave my my portion in this life and--live or die-- i do not alter HIS will with mine. i have went through four surgeries and am up for a fifth and i always stipulate before these surgical procedures. nothing is up for grabs, neither do i accept or want anything.

dwmte

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morphus says on Nov 5, 2007, 06:15:

The funny thing about Jehovah Wittnesses and Catholics is their own religion tells them that the Jews are gods chosen people. Therefore, the only ones going to heaven and yet they still follow the religion.

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gringolondinense says on Nov 5, 2007, 06:27:

"very proportion of family groups had a member who was either physically or mentally handicapped"

thats very strange Kalder. According to the JWs sickening "Watchtower" magazines I get pushed through my door handicapped people are so because they deserve it.

Maybe they believe they do deserve it and go along with the whole thing quite happily.

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dwmte7 says on Nov 5, 2007, 06:43:

karma's karma.........you're bumpin heads if you want to argue that law.

anyone who's travelled in india (for example) finds the rude TRUTH of life's realities, are boldly displayed day in and day out. i.e. the guy with no arms or legs, laying in the street, is by the teachings of hinduism, aware that the guy he's begging from, is also aware, that the reason he's armless and legless, there in the dirt, is because he got himself there.

the fact that ones bad dicisions get them where they are and that dues must be paid, should not harden the heart of other's; favor with GOD comes from serving, cherishing, helping and forgiving his creatures.

the inexhorable (sp) laws of karma are givens. the opportunity of charity are dicisions of free will and every opportunity to do good should be taken.

dwmte

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kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 07:28:

"According to the JWs sickening "Watchtower" magazines I get pushed through my door handicapped people are so because they deserve it."

That's ghastly GL.

Bugger 'karma'.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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morphus says on Nov 5, 2007, 07:31:

LOL..what about ugly people? Do they deserve it too?

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dwmte7 says on Nov 5, 2007, 07:35:

damn, morph...i hope not, or we'll be in a trick.

dwmte

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eywed says on Nov 5, 2007, 07:41:

Love when the JWs use to come to the house. I learned the best way to get rid of them and get put on the do not go there list. I just answer the door naked. I invite them in but they just scurry off not to come back ever again. . Oh the look of horrer on their mugs is priceless.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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dwmte7 says on Nov 5, 2007, 07:54:

hombre...que mas pues? the nerve of that big old guy!

i've on several occassions asked the local JW's and A of GOD why they don't have windows in their churches...ain't GOD the light? duh. none, so far, has an answer.

my wife always invites in the latin missionaries of the above churches into the house and sits down with them and makes tea. then later she complains (to me) that they don't respect her/our catholic beliefs.

well dear, don't envite them in. but when they come around again, same old story...duh

dwmte

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kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 08:53:

Those Latin missionaries can be really, really rude about Catholic beliefs.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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scotty says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:17:

thats a strange religion. man if someone elses blood is gonna save a life go for it.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:35:

Amen.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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dwmte7 says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:54:

scotty...i think i made it clear, it has nothing to do with my religion...it's me, and i don't want anybody elses blood. if it costs my life, well, as i said, nobody gets outta here alive.

dwmte

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Man Tequila says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:38:

Most JWs I have found do indeed stick to their guns and refuse blood products and emergency transfusions. The real ethical crises come when they want to do the same for their six year old.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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scotty says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:48:

well there comes a time in our lives when we must make some serious decisions, some of these decisions are life and death decisions.
if you are in a auto accident and bleeding to death and the doctor says we can give you blood transfusion and you will live and you say "no i wont except blood transfusion". well then you are one dead dude, kiss your ass goodbye.

not me i would say"give me that blood doc!"

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Man Tequila says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:50:

Most JWs do not, and doctors respect that.

But can a six year old make these choices? It has led to several high profile lawsuits.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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podborski says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:57:

it's crystal clear to me...a 6 year is widely recoginized as being unable to make rational decisions, cannot sign legally binding contracts for example, and to condemn a child to death over some irrational belief is unconscionable IMHO.

I'd also say trying to stop a child's blood transfusion would be grounds to have the child removed from parents care, it's the height of irresponsibility, at least as bad as child abuse, but life threatening to boot..

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slguy says on Nov 5, 2007, 17:04:

Amen, Pod.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Man Tequila says on Nov 5, 2007, 23:24:

What if the child was 14? Believe me, these situations arise and lead to big ethical dilemas and lawsuits. We tend to treat first...

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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scotty says on Nov 6, 2007, 04:48:

I used to know this kid about 16, i cant remember the religion they belonged to it wasnt JW. well anyway the kid got real sick, i dont recall what it was but his father wouldnt let him take any medication, or go see a doctor, or anything helpful. All the kid did was drink water, he lost alot of weight i thought he was gonna die, he got pale and sickly.
But he lived and his dad said "see God will not let you die"
i thought to myself man this guy is a jackass he almost lost his son because he wouldnt let him see a doctor. what an ass!

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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gringolondinense says on Nov 6, 2007, 04:51:

I know a guy whos dying of cancer who wont see a doctor anymore,(since he got his diagnosis). He feels that god will take care of him too.

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morphus says on Nov 6, 2007, 05:58:

He's probably better off. Buy him one of those raw vegetable juice extractors.

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podborski says on Nov 6, 2007, 06:52:

I recall vaguely a few of those cases man t. I'd still say it's clear cut up until at LEAST age 18. After that, well, it's debateable.

I think it's a shame if some 19 year old would rather die than have a simple transfusion, but then some young people commit suicide too, not much you can do about it.

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LA_MONA says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:03:

I think we're being too hard on JW's, they are very peaceable and although the door knocking can get annoying they're copying Jesus when he was on earth and the preaching, who else does that on the scale they do???

The bible does say to abstain from blood, the bible is inspired by God so therefore that's why they take it like that. (if you believe in the Bible or God for that matter).

Millions of young men and children die every day due to war and corruption due to loyalty for their country, so in this case the loyalty is to God, (I don't think JW's partake in war) so if you compare the death toll from "religious" wars or wars altogether, (backed by the church) it doesn't even come close.

Personally I think blood transfusions are dangerous, alot of illnesses have been passed through transfusions so they bible might just be right when it says "good health to you".

OK feel free to tear me to shreds...

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

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msaucey says on Nov 6, 2007, 08:43:

I think that you've got a point Mona.... I mean, aside from JW's always trying to knock down the door, they have their believes, just like everyone else.... Just like other groups have beliefs, we may not always agree with their decisions, but who are we to make a judgement call on what's best for others..... I'm on the fence when it comes to a 6 year old needing a blood transfusion, because they don't know any better.... But, JW's aren't the only one's with these types of beliefs...

Isn't circumsition based on the Jewish faith?....

I believe that the Omish, still refuse to go to regular hospital's?....

There's still quite a few Native Americans that prefer to go with a Shamans remedy for Cancer then going for Chemotherapy....

We can't judge others for their beliefs.... That's their choice and the choice they make for their family....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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LA_MONA says on Nov 6, 2007, 08:50:

Thanks msaucey, plus I wouldn't believe the media and what they say about them and how they sensationalize things, next time one knocks I think I'll have questions but like you say I'll give them a chance to answer but I know a few of them anyway, colombian ones here and they are really nice.

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

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slguy says on Nov 6, 2007, 09:34:

So, religious freedom extends to endangering a child's life, who is too young to make an informed decision for himself?

Hmmmm..then maybe those radical Islamists have a point. They believe their holy text tells them to behead non-believers. Maybe we should just chalk it up to "they have a right to their beliefs" next time they behead an american, for not believing as they do.

I know, I know- I'm being over the top. But I honestly don't see it as that huge a gap - except in the case of fundamentalist Christians denying their children appropriate medical care in times of true life-threatening crises - we're talking about a child's life, for god sake. They want to commit indirect suicide for their beliefs when they're really sick, is their call. But a child's life? Sorry. There's right and there's wrong - and endangering a child's life over religious beliefs is just wrong.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 6, 2007, 15:08:

Msaucey, the Amish - even the most conservative or fundamental, go to regular hospitals. I worked a while at a major hospital in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I was based out of the outpatient surgery unit. I saw Amish there pretty much daily. The hospital loved the Amish. They always paid their bills, and they always paid cash.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 6, 2007, 16:32:

Speaking of the Amish, and Indiana, the Wall Street Journal ran an article a year or two ago about rising health care costs. One cost containment example they used was an Amish community in Indiana that "self-insured" (no insurance, paid cash) but also negotiated drug prices and medical procedure prices in advance. The medical community gave them at least a 20% discount for paying in cash and cutting out the middle man (the insurance company). That's how a lot of people used to get their health care and other social welfare benefits - through the various benevolent or fraternal societies that were affiliated with a religious organization or trade union. But then FDR and LBJ came along and it's been downhill ever since. Haha.

The Amish are OK by me - they pay taxes, they vote (I think), they're good environmental stewards, they don't over consume and they don't go door to door trying to sell you their religion. On the downside, they are conscientious objectors to war so they'll never fight to preserve the freedoms they have, but at least they are quiet and consistent about it and their objection is part of a deeply held belief system. I respect that far more than some attention-seeking Hollywood nitwit.

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Man Tequila says on Nov 6, 2007, 19:04:

Conscientious objectors to war oppose war. I would not say that necessarily means they would not fight for their personal freedom if it was directly threatened. But that's the rub, how many Senator's sons are fighting in Iraq?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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scotty says on Nov 7, 2007, 03:40:

I had another friend named Harry, he was about 55 years, he got the same type of cancer i got esophagus cancer one of the most dangerous and deadly .
he called me up and wanted to know what i did to beat cancer. i told him i got surgery. he said "well im not doing that, im going to Bolivia for 6 weeks for a special cleansing program, i will drink juices and herbs and massage, and mineral pools and beat this thing the naturals way.
i told him good luck.

6 weeks later he came back, his 3rd or 4th day back he started spitting up blood and died the next day.
2 1/2 years later and im still alive (surgery or juice/herb) i'll take the surgery.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Nov 7, 2007, 03:43:

My uncle was a 7th day adventist, lived to the age of 88, never had surgery, no deseases, never took medications, always healthy. ate only veggies and fruits. had his wits all the way to the end.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Nov 7, 2007, 03:47:

Mona, the bible says alot of things but let me ask you this. you are crossing the street in London and a English sports car comes flying arounf the corner and hits you dead on. you wake up in the emergency room. the doctor tells you, you have lost alot of blood we are going to give you a transfusion to save your life.
what is your reply " no doctor i dont accept blood transfusion" or are you gonna take the blood and live?
i wonder how many people would be dead today if there was not such a thing as blood banks.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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LA_MONA says on Nov 7, 2007, 03:57:

Scotty, I totally understand your point of view and I agree, if you can somehow save a life go for it, I'm just saying the blood is sometimes infected but...

I'm trying to see it from their point of view..if you have 100% faith that the bible is Gods word, that God has forbade the use of blood, abstain from it totally, if you want to obey God then that's what you do....and who would we be to question what God says?

I've had this conversation before with JW'S and the belief s that soon God will restore the earth to paradise and humans will live without illnesses and be perfect, as God had originally planned, that all the bad things we're seeing is the climax of the end of this bad world that's run by Satan, so if you look at it that way, you're obeying God and will live anyway in the near future.

And JW's do recieve medical care and go to hospitals, the only one thing they don't accept is blood.

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

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morphus says on Nov 7, 2007, 04:55:

"6 weeks later he came back, his 3rd or 4th day back he started spitting up blood and died the next day"

So much for raw juice therapy and cleansing. I guess I'll put a bullet in my head if I get cancer.

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scotty says on Dec 13, 2007, 01:29:

gringolondinese, questions for you: what kind of cancer does your friend have? how long has he had the cancer? what stage is the cancer in right now? is he still alive? if he is have him contact me. I had one of the m ost dangerous cancers there are and lived, have him email me i would like to talk to him. please.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Dec 13, 2007, 01:34:

no morphus, you or anyone else find out you have cancer, IMMEDIATELY see professional help, find out what stage the cancer is in ( stage 1 or 2 you can be cured pretty easy and fast, stage 3 starting to get difficult to cure, stage 4 you are in big trouble, stage 5 you are dead man walking)
i caught my cancer in stage 3 quickly moving into a stage 4, i barely made it in time.
dont put a gun to your head they are coming up with new cures all the time and new tests that can spot cancer early on.
NEVER NEVER GIVE UP THE FIGHT

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Man Tequila says on Dec 14, 2007, 08:48:

Scotty, you are speaking as a survivor of cancer. Morphus is just making a joke, of sorts.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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morphus says on Dec 14, 2007, 09:31:

Hopefully, all the fruits I eat will keep me alive.

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