kill who?

aNdReSk says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:21:

they are the same crap

(even thought i really dislike chavez, i dont want anyone to be killed O_o)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:25:

Chavez is more comparable to Musharraf... with the exception that Musharraf is actually a dictator (not a figure of speech) backed by the US.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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RAAAY says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:26:

agree.........both the same crap....................but thinking that they are " mostly illiterate islamic pakistani fundamentalists " is'nt really correct. These folks are far from illiterate...... Scary thing is, they are very, very intelligent.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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podborski says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:29:

both are equally ignorant, but the only one that is truly evil is the one who acts violently, rather than just talks about it.

so it's pretty clear, as I doubt old Pat is going to strap a bomb on himself and go try to kill chavez. But that's not necessarily true of the islamic terrorists.

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:43:

None of the above.....by far the worst war criminal on the planet and a terrorist by way of starting an illegal war is the moron GEORGE BUSH......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:43:

Same-o, same-o.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Medellin Traveler says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:48:

I say BOTH, illiterate islamic pakistani fundamentalists and pat robertson!

Chelesupercono says, "None of the above.....by far the worst war criminal on the planet and a terrorist by way of starting an illegal war is the moron GEORGE BUSH......"

I would have to put Dick Cheney ahead of Bush on this one, but understand were you're coming from.

Discover Medellin, Antioquia - Colombia www.medellintraveler.com

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sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:49:

Yep, chump Cheney is da champ!

And the top contender Repub. says we will be in Iraq for YEARS!

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:53:

Freedom Fighter? George Bush? I suggest you ask that question of the 2.5mil displaced Iraqis now living in refugee camps what they think.........total bullshit!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:53:

That might be a stretch, GL, but I can see where you're coming from.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:56:

If McCAIN gets in power our country is lost.......I pray that does not happen because if he does, you know we are f^cked.......period

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:06:

Pat Robertson is a dickhead........besides he and GB talk to God at the same time....don't they?

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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diabloblas says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:08:

pakistan has a less than 50 % literacy rate

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:26:

I can read and comprehend very good, thank you......although I sometimes have difficulty with babble such as the crap you write......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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diabloblas says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:52:

there's no doubt that an educated pat robertson is a little off his rocker claiming that god speaks to him

& there's no doubt that the mostly illiterate pakis chanting for the death of salmon ruskie for writing a novel are equally crazy

...the question is: which side should be held most accountable for their actions if somebody takes them up on their requests

...to whom would a western culture court of law give out the biggest sentence

...this is a question i ask myself & family

...i witnessed both parties in person...they both scare me...albeit in a more secure environment when in the presence of the "reverend" stateside than surrounded by islamics in rawalpindi & islamabad

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diabloblas says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:05:

i don't want to debate that answer gringoloid even though i agree with some of it

..i really am trying to pose an honest question that perplexes me & my immediate family...my son says hands down robertson should get the harshest sentence...slam dunk

...me?...i don't know for sure.

...i do believe that randy duke cunningham... the ace fighter pilot of the vietnam era ... should have gotten a heavier sentence than the guy who bribed him...but that didn't happen

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durito says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:24:

Pat Robertson is educated and respected?

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:31:

A war could be called legal in the sense that when one country is attacked by another, there is a clear cut premise for declaring war upon the other. Iraq did not attack the United States at any time, Bush, Cheney and Wolfowitz lied and clearly manipulated the American public with the fear of terrorism to start a war.......

And yes, I do agree, the fact that this moron was twice elected is the worst tragedy to happen in my lifetime. What it says about the voting public is unprintable.....

We all get the death wish......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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aztec says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:50:

What some wild eyed lunatics on this post. You clowns are actually comparing Robertson with Osama bin Muhammad bin 'Awad bin Laden and his followers!

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Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:57:

What? Osama, Pat, & George all butt buddies? Could that be true...? ummmmmm

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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aztec says on Feb 20, 2008, 17:02:

We could certainly use old GIB now. The inmates of the asylum are running loose here with no supervision.

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billyb says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:19:

Did you guys hear about Rushdie's new book? It's called "Buddha, you fat fuck".

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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bufalo says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:41:

knock off Bush, make the world a safer place

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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Medellin Traveler says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:44:

bufalo says, "knock off Bush, make the world a safer place"

NO WAY IN HELL!

This would put Dick Cheney in charge. I may take a bullet to save Bush's life, and mankind as well.

Discover Medellin, Antioquia - Colombia www.medellintraveler.com

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:53:

Gringoloid gives sound advice Bufalo.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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RAAAY says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:57:

We know what Buffalo meant.........." Knock off Bush "....he meant..... knock it off....leave him alone........Bush is good..........he'll make the world a safer place...........

yes ?

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 21:52:

cheles you need to get back on the meds

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 21:59:

the world is run by religious crazies...gringoloid.

hmmm..please tell me which religion is was exactly that Hitler belonged to? How about Kruschev? what crazy religion is it that runs China? Cuba? North korea? shall i continue?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 22:05:

cheles, you said Bush manipulated everyone? wow ! the Libs say he dumb, but yet he was smart enough to fool all those democrats that voted for the war like Hillary did. So either Bush is not dumb after all he is pretty smart (OR) the dems are pretty stupid?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 22:08:

bufalo the secret service will be visiting your home soon.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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RAAAY says on Feb 20, 2008, 22:13:

scotty says on Wednesday February 20th, 2008 22:05:

...... " those democrats that voted for the war like Hillary did "............


There was a vote to go to war....????
You obviously watch too much of FOX news...........Fair and brainwashed

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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aztec says on Feb 21, 2008, 04:10:

huskie, You are just upset he (Wolfowicz) didn't make a pass at you.

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miamimike says on Feb 21, 2008, 04:56:

Cheney is Evil but a Moron Like Bush he is Not! Far from it,,,That said, I would never vote for Cheney but I give the Devil his due,,,

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska

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Medellin Traveler says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:34:

I'm not a religious man, but I pray to gawd every night that there is a hell...and more importantly, that there is room in hell for Dick Cheney!

Discover Medellin, Antioquia - Colombia www.medellintraveler.com

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:55:

"so an atheist is confirming the existence of god" (and a very long ellipsis)

I know I'm drifting off topic--but so are most posts in PBH, so who cares--but would you mind elaborating on this? As a card-carrying atheist, I don't see how I am "confirming the existence of god".

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:12:

......... WHAT ???....................... There's no Santa Claus....??........F**

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:20:

Off the coast of England..............??

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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aztec says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:03:

gringoloid, you have too much free time on your hands.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:04:

Ha ha, gringoloid, you have to read a little bit more about what atheism is about (it's described in the back of our cards). Most mainstream atheists (a la Dawkins) don't believe in God (capital G: It's a proper name) because the question of whether it exists or not is meaningless, just like the question of whether unicorns or fairies exist (are you a unicorn agnostic?). I sure know how the Christian God looks like: It's a bearded old white guy who used to be pretty pissed off but now he's kind of cool. Does that confirm its existence? Ridiculous.

Agnostics, for all I care, are just atheists without the cojones to admit it.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:10:

Sr Tertius..............rubbish.....................if there is no God.............how then do you explain my getting laid on both Saturday and Sunday night......??

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:13:

"how then do you explain my getting laid on both Saturday and Sunday night......??"

Nature is a cruel bitch, but she also provides some pleasures... sometimes two days in a row!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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sloopskipper says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:40:

New mini scandle in U.S.:

THE LONG RUN
For McCain, Self-Confidence on Ethics Poses Its Own Risk
By JIM RUTENBERG, MARILYN W. THOMPSON, DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK and STEPHEN LABATON
As his relationship with a female lobbyist underscores, John McCain’s confidence in his own integrity has sometimes seemed to blind him to potential conflicts of interest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/us/politics/21mccain.html?th&emc=th

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:46:

Didn't Salmon Rushkie win the Iditarod dogsled race last year?

Now, if you're talking about SALMAN RUSHDIE and the fatwa against him, first of all, it wasn't "illiterate pakistanti fundamentalists" who called for his death, it was the Ayatollah Khomeini who was the leader of Iran. Now, you can say a lot of bad things about the Ayatollah for sure, but he most certainly wasn't illiterate.

Pat Robertson is just a yokel.

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Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:49:

An agnostic considers that he/she knows nothing and is open to the possibility that God might exist.

The atheist assures God does not exist.

Therefore, rampant atheists are just as arrogant as smug religious individuals.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:55:

I guess it all depends on what your definition of God is.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:57:

podborski says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:30:

I disagree colombiche. I for example don't believe in a lot of things (leprauchans, bigfoot, angels, santa etc.) but am quite willing to believe if someone shows me a shred of actual proof.

How is that smug?

I don't know how the universe started, but it really doesn't matter to me. I am happy to start with what I know, which is that we are here.

Why spend a lot of time pondering about things that can never be proved/disproved?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:45:

Gringoloid,

Like rocinante, I'm not attempting to define atheism--I'm just pointing at what people like Dawkins and many other atheists (like me) believe (yes, believe) to be self evident: That asking whether God exists or not is like asking whether leprechauns exist or not: It makes no sense, it cannot be proven, there is nothing you can show me that will persuade me otherwise, just like there is nothing I can show anyone to persuade him that 2 plus 2=5, it's not an empirical question, and that's where your confusion stems from. Agnostics confuse uncertainty with senselessness. At least religious people know that what they believe is based on faith, which is fine by me.

"The arrogant Sr Tert thinks he has a monopoly on 'belief system thought'"

Really? Where do I say that? Because I think I'm right on something means I'm "arrogant"? Should I presume that you believe that you are wrong in what you believe? That seems rather confusing to me.

"I have no idea what you are talking about above or how it relates to me."

Your statement, let me remind you, was that "an atheist is confirming the existence of god." That is a false statement, one very different from your later claim "I only say your atheism is a belief system." Of course it is a belief system! Just like veterinary or molecular biology are belief systems. And let me break it to you: Agnosticism is ALSO a belief system. A pretty inconsistent one, but a belief system nonetheless.




In any case, this discussion certainly beats the thread on whether Chavez's farts smell or not.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:47:

Wow, is it possible that pod and I agree on something...? It may be the lunar eclipse yesterday...

"it is only smug if you are enforcing or pushing your belief of non belief of leprauchans on others"

And who's doing that here?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:54:

Gringoloid.

I don't know how to be more clear. Maybe in caps?

I never said that Dawkins' kind of atheism is the only belief system.

I never said that anyone else's beliefs are ridiculous.

I AM saying that you made a ridiculously inaccurate statement about atheism. Am I pushing my beliefs onto you when I point that out? Geez... sorry...

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:03:

I'm sure it'll be the only thing sr t! : )

GL, now we'd have to get into the definition of 'proof' to answer your question.

Let me see if I can put it this way. I think it is possible, very remotely however, that some scientist could find a great, possibly correct, explanation (or proof if you will) for how the universe began.

If so, fabulous, it would be fascinating. I would not be intelligent enough to know whether he was right or not, but with a bit of study, maybe some help from other experts I might be convinced.

So I do think it is possible, just extremely unlikely, that the beginning can be 'proven', and it depends on if you accept as proof an expert's opinion (as I would in some cases), as opposed to having to 'see it' with my own eyes.

Same with UFO's. I don't think they exist. If someone asked me, I'd say no. But is it possible? Sure, and I'd change my mind when I see one up close. But not until then.

Personally, I sure hope they exist, it would be very cool. I'd be the first to volunteer to go to another galaxy. As long as I could take a colombiana with me : )

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RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:06:

Well.............................here's all the PROOF you should need to confirm the existance of....
..............

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:24:

"nos estas jodiendo?"

That was my very same thought. Thanks, rocinante.

Pod,

I'd say there's a fundamental difference between believing in God and believing in UFOs. Someone may show me a UFO, or may collect evidence of their existence, and then I may be persuaded. THAT I can be agnostic about. But God is almost by definition that which cannot be explained: You can only believe in him through faith. I cannot think what would someone have to show me to persuade me of his existence. But if E.T. knocks on my door, I'm willing to consider that he came from outer space.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:57:

"you would have to know what god is to say it does not exist, wouldn't you?"

We're moving in circles.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:36:

Gringoloid. As I said, we're moving in circles. I already argued that atheists (like me, like Dawkins, I think like rocinante too) do not believe in God because, by definition, it cannot be proven to exist. That's not faith: That's derived from a premise of how things are proven to exist.

Basing your belief on evidence (like I do, like you seem to do) is also a belief system.

Address my points in my prior posts and we'll continue.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:46:

phewwwww..... Thank God I'm an atheist ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:00:

Had you read my posts you wouldn't be asking this:

"you don't think god can be proven NOT to exist?"

Answer: NO. What part of "it is not a valid question" is not clear?

If you want to conflate stuborness with open-mindedness, that's your choice. Even the ayatollahs think they're open minded.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:19:

Aristotle was the first dude to try to prove the existence of god through logic. He reasoned that nothing can come from nothing, therefore there must have been somebody behind the curtain to jumpstart existence.

In the Metaphysics he calls this Prime Mover "God," whose only activity is pure thought. It must think of itself only, since it is the most excellent of all things, and "its thinking is a thinking about thinking."

Then came Anselm and Aquinas, who ripped off Aristotle by arguing basically that because we can imagine god, he must exist. The logic flow goes something like this:

God is that entity than which nothing can be greater.
The concept of God exists in human understanding.
God exists in one's mind but not in reality.
The concept of God's existence is understood in one's mind.
If God existed in reality it would be a greater thing than God's existence in the mind.
The final step to God's existence is that God in reality must exist.

Then came Descartes, who used questioning what God is not to try to get at what he is, what the egghead monks and theology geeks call Apophatic theology.

His reasoning, based on perception, goes like this:

Whatever I clearly and distinctly perceive to be contained in the idea of something is true of that thing.

I clearly and distinctly perceive that necessary existence is contained in the idea of God.

Therefore, God exists.

But then the ol Scottish skeptic Hume, who you could say is kind of the founder of modern thought, used similar logic to show that, like Sr T says, the whole point of God is that ya can't prove he exists. In fact ya can't prove that anything like a Prime Mover, or a priori, or like a first principle, can exist. And ya shouldn't try. The logic chain goes like this:

The only way to prove anything a priori is through an opposite contradiction. For example, I am a married bachelor.

The resulting contradiction makes something inconceivable. Obviously it is impossible to have a married bachelor.

It is impossible to comprehend anything not existing. Thus it is inconceivable to imagine anything not existing.

Nothing can be proven to exist a priori, including God.

But then Jay-Z, alias Sean Carter, alias Jigga Man, alias Jay-Hova, rode into town and self-annointed himself God MC, which kind of blew up everybodies spot.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:23:

Gringoloid, unlike you with my posts, at least I read a few sentences into the website.

Briefly: Bullcrap.

The statement (which I presume is the synthesis of their argument), "the laws of physics and chemistry do not explain the existence of information" is a conflation of terms. Information doesn't exist in the same way that my left foot exists, that's why no natural science can "prove" it. Physics and chemistry cannot demonstrate that 2 plus 2 is 4... THERE MUST BE A GOD!!

I like one of the premises: "All codes are created by a conscious mind" By codes this guy means language. I wonder... what conscious mind created English? John English?

The whole "intelligent design" argument has been debunked already so many times, not even its own secular advocates take it seriously anymore. H. Allen Orr's article, Devolution, printed in the New Yorker, provides a good synthesis of the discussion.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:25:

As far as killing someone because God told you to, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, used to slip out at night and park one in somebodies brain pan because his neighbor's dog told him to. D-O-G.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:39:

"Aristotle was the first dude to try to prove the existence of god through logic."

Gato, I think this is Aquinas take on Aristotle, not Aristotle himself.

Here's another contradictory (i.e., meaningless) question: Is the statement "I always lie" true?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:45:

Sr T, no actually Plato, Socrates and Aristotle all have various references to the 'One' (in Greek: To Hen), the ineffable God. And that stuff about the prime mover is from the Nichomachean Ethics, where he did try to logically prove the existence of this God.

But Aquinas and Maimonides certainly ran with it.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:58:

Gato,

I'm not a Aristotle expert at all, but I do have a copy of the Ethics (the Ostwald translation) and I fail to see where that argument is actually advanced. This is a topic that interests me very much, so I'd appreciate it if you can direct me to a book and chapter. I know that older translations assumed that what is now conventionally translated as "the good" (I don't know the original greek word) was God.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:07:

"sorry babe, you ain't got the brains to debate with me"

You should've told me that this was about your insecurities and I'd stop some time ago. I doubt that you "defeated" my argument, because I didn't really have one: Just a bunch of questions that went unanswered.

The argument from the website, gringoloid, is not whether those who created languages have conscious minds but whether they have A SINGLE conscious mind, i.e., that they were planned. I'm no linguist, but my guess is that natural languages--like DNA--are more the product of accumulated accidents selected by an unguided process.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:09:

Sr T,

My bad,

It's in Metaphysics, Lambda section (Chapter 12). Best translation is still probably ol' W.D. Ross's, from back in 1924.

The argument is Aristotle's own one about essences as being the key to substances. If that makes any damn sense.

Averroes' commentary is real good, and you don't have to read the flippin thing in Latin anymore.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:13:

Uh, that's beyond my scope, so I'll take your word for that. Thanks!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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sloopskipper says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:44:

Frisian is the language most closely related to English apart from Scots, . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages#Old_Frisian

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:50:

There is no such thing as a god ,as a Jesus ,Mohammed,or the rest of that shit,its just a continuing of story's started 3000 years before the so called BC,all were born on the 25th,all were visited by 3 wise men or stars ,all born to a virgin,all rise 3 days after death,just so many but the story is all the same .....bollocks

As for all the wars ,its just about power money and now oil,
The USA has in the past ,set up and bomb their own people to start it off,
Every dictator that has come to power the USA has put there,
Now we have bin lardan ,again he works for the USA ,the bush family are in with the larden family,
The day before the wtc 9.11 bin larden was in a hospital ,they knew where he was ,they know now where he is,they are using him and his group,their are no terrorist only the USA,
Now when we say the USA ,its only 5 family's ,its only the Jews, its the Jews that control and run it all,
As for the wtc,
Why would one man a year before buy it,
Why would he set up an insurances for it to be rebuilt if it was knocked now ,unheard off in its 40 years ,
The wtc was not making money,
It was costing too much,
And every one knew it had to get rid of the asbestos ,at a cost of one billion dollars,
The owner only put 15 million dollars down he now has a new building going up and got 7 billion to boot,
Why was the mayor of new York not in his bunker and control room in tower 7,
How come that fell,
How come all the papers for the oil company went with it saving them a 70 billion law suit,
Where did all the gold go ,
Why did they find 235 million of gold in a truck 3 blocks away ,but this is all they found.
Billions went missing.
They named 19 hijackers ,yet 9 of them are alive and well.
Who shut down the wtc power ,
Who ran the air port the planes came from ,
It was the brother of bush. Even the bomb dogs were took away,
Over 100 billion made for these people up to now,
Then we get the war ,
Now who is making billions ,
Bush and halliburton, dick cheney is running bush,bush is just a lap dog,
Some of the names that are behind all the shit going on is Rothschild, Warburg, Rockefeller and Schiff bin lardan bush,and the German banks.
Every thing you can think of is ran and owned by Jews ,the papers the editors the radio the TV ,the phones ,the Jews are tapping the whole of the USA.
And these family's paid and set up Hitler they told him what to do.
Why is Israel being let do just what it wants,
Why do the USA give it 3 billion a year,
Why are they still today setting up more camps on occupied land.
Who is killing most,the USA.
Who has killed most ...the USA...
And just follow the money to see who is doing it.
And if you think the USA and CIA don't do this ,just look at jfk killing ,
Jfk had 4 CIA on his car ,just at the same moment he was turning the CIA in the 1st car called them back ,unheard of,so when jfk got shot not one CIA was on his car ,just take a look,and they were called away not a minute before it went down,they say the shots came all from the book deposit, yet every one on the street ran up the grass to where it came from,they knew a shot came from the street , but the shot that took jfk head off came from inside the car its self,

Its all a big lie .

3 building come down in the same way ,all go to dust ,could not happen.
Millions of people in NYC ,webcams ,phone cams ,video ,but not one good photo of a plane ,
Not one part of all 4 planes were found ,just don't happen.
Cell calls from planes for 25 minutes ,....yes your cell will work on a plane but not at 35000 feet going over 500 miles a hour,some times you cant even get a call while driving,
The ground floor of the pentagon yet not one post knocked down ,not a mark on the grass,and out the 100s of cams they got in and around this building not one photo of a plane.just could not happen.
A plane smashes right into the ground and you get only a 15 feet creator yet the bits were over 4 miles,nothing bigger than a football,just don't happen.
You get a plane down they seal off the area ,and for weeks they investigate ,yet here nothing,they just started to clean up right away ,no photos ,nothing ,not for 411 days did they set up some one from the white house to investigate the whorehouse,and still we got nothing.just what are the people in the USA thinking about,
Why were all bin lardan family flown out the week and day before 9.11
Why did a lot of these people who had flights booked cancel,
Why did so much inside trading go on just on these planes that went down,
Why just on this day were they doing a drill on planes hitting the wtc,a drill on the same thing that was just happening.
How can bush say he was at the school and sew on TV the 1st plane hit ,when the 1st plane hitting was only on TV the next day,no one had photos of the 1st plane till the next morning ,yet bush says he saw it on TV,
No one in NYC sew or photos a plane ,not the TV not the coppers in the air nothing on the second plane,when it was all live ,they were all set up when the second plane hit ,but we get nothing,not one clear photo.
Pilots have tied on the simulator to do the same flight patten as these planes and none could do it,only one hit the wtc in 5 try's,yet they want you to belive these hijackers could.
The speed they were going was faster than planes could go.
All adds up to no planes hit the wtc,no plane hit the pentagon,no plane crashed that day.
I belive in coincidences,does happen ,but when it happens time and time again on this that goes out the window ,it just cant happen,talking of windows ,they were no windows on the thing that hit the wtc ,that you can see.
So no matter what you belive ,its a fact
The USA will kill its own to start things ,they have done it before and will do it again,
The USA and the Jew family's that run it are the true terrorists,and the sooner we all wake up to this the better for the whole world.
And until the terrorists state of Israel is put to an end it will just go on ,
And I end by saying I like obomer but I tell you no matter what the USA white USA is not ready to put a nigger in the white house ,and yes its not the N word that's bollocks ,the word is nigger to all white USA ,they know from past you put a black face in ,then new jobs go to other blacks ,the blacks will bring in more blacks ,its just a fact ,and at the moment black and white has not come in to it ,but it will , it has to because the USA is black and white the USA is racist,and racist on both sides....black and white.and then throw in the racist shit both black and white are giving the poor Mexicans,and you can see why the land of the free is the land of the fucked and damned,and the whole world is sufferings from this shit.the world has to turn on the USA and the big corporatists Mafia killers ,and bring it all down,may be just may be China will come save the day.but it is going to get a lot worst before it gets better,the USA want Iran ,that is the goal,they need it ,and that is coming mark my words......

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:58:

lol ,i just took them thanks

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:07:

"The Jew's Family?"

Some also believe that Jew's drink the blood of Christian children, can turn themselves into cockroaches, and like to enter into 'contact' with unclean animals.

But this is ridiculous, absurd and even, dare I say it...paranoid?

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:13:

follow the facts ,follow the money ,thats all im saying.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:23:

So here is some thing you can all go check for you self its on the net ,
Money halliburton,one silly thing ,a plastic plate the troops need to eat off,

One plate halliburton is billing 22 dollars ,yes 22 dollars for one plastic plate ,but the troops take another plate to put on top of their food ,to keep the dust off so that's 2 plates a meal ,44 dollars a meal 3 times a day 132 dollars per man per day x that by 160.000 and this is just for a bloody plate,

You don't have to be a wiz to carry on from here and see just how much money these gangsters are raking in.
And the world is paying the price for a few.....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:31:

Is Dick Cheney a Jew?

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sloopskipper says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:33:

I just saved it, a second time, as a word doc file, which includes all the avatars, fotos, and links. But it is strange that the version I saved yesterday reported 45 pages, 2128KB, and today 20 some pages and 660KB, atlthough it looks complete. I will do again if the thread continues to run.

If anybody wants it, shoot a private e-mail with an address,

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:35:

There is nothing wrong saying Jew or Jews ,it is what there are ,just the same as you saying I'm English or American ,and they say their so called god was king of the Jews ,even the romans put the sign on his cross king of the jews.so the word means nothing more than it is Jew.

roc,
show me one photo any where of a plane,just one photo of a passenger plane,that they were tracking for over an hour ,that they knew was heading for nyc ,that hit the wtc ,but nothing,not one photo.go out side see a plane coming to wards you take a photo ,you see the whole plane ,you see the logo ,here you see jack shit ,nothing.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:51:

Yes, here we have another myth popular with the 9/11 conspiracy theorists - the confused and muddled belief in the involvement of the Israeli government and, by extension, the ever useful international Jewish conspiracy. This one has been around a long time, for those of you who have just arrived.

According to the true-believers holed up in some attic surrounded by knock -off Nazi paraphanalia, the Mossad warned these Jews about the attacks, and they were able to escape harm. Such rumors again arose after the bombings in the London subway last year. It seems that whatever happens in the world, there are people who will lay the blame at the feet of the Jews. Just because they happen to be conniving by nature and guilty of deicide. So, the thinking goes, if the Jews were warned, they must have caused it.

In the Muslim world, Zionists conspiracies are peddled from millions of mosques and you can buy the "Protocols of the Elder Zion" on street corners. But up until 9/11, in the West this stuff was mostly the province of pathetic neo-Nazi groups, most of whom were repressed homosexuals secretly hoping to get back to the jailhouse showers. But now, a belief in the exaggerated power of pro-Israel Jews in the United States seems to be more common.

Even some smart people have started talking about these theories, but then, delusional thinking has never been confined to the realm of the uneducated. Look at how vigorously the Inquisition pursued witches.

Remember, theories like these preform a useful pyschological function: they allow people to deny their own feelings of vulnerability and impotence. And they prevent people from having to face up to uncomfortable and complicated truths.

Hell, we all need a few illusions in our lives I guess. But maybe not ones that monger hate.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 14:03:

Everyone has their own hatemongering delusions.

The Islamic fundamentalists think they are fighting a Holy War. The First World thinks it is fighting "terror". At least the former, unlike the latter, generally keep their fighting within their own territory.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 14:28:

"the former keep fighting in their own territory because the later is kicking the shit out of them."

Don't think so. Take the Talibans or the Wahhabists. Once they secured power over their own territory, they were rather content. Sure, they bombed an embassy here or there, and attacked a US Navy vessel, but they never quite got to the point of building military bases in Miami or Toronto (AFAIK).

"Had they actually done that, they would have had a lot less problems with the latter."

I don't think it would've mattered: Someone would've figured out a connection between their internal conflicts and national security. It has happened very often: Just look at Colombia.

"Do you subscribe to the "let them fight it out" theory?"

Well, I have a humble little political theory I like to call "keep your fucking guns out of my country" theory. It's based on the idea that people don't like being invaded and colonized, and that they can figure out their own internal disputes by themselves, without anyone else nosing in. I don't know if it also goes by the "let them fight it out" label, but if so, yes, I'm a fervent advocate.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:05:

roc,as i say just a black shape,no photo of a plane ,going well to fast for a plane ,and a plane is like a can of coke,its soft its light,yet this thing punch it way in and then came out the other side ,it exploded on the other side,it was not a passenger plane at all.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:17:

there was no genocide in the sudan ,till the oil company set up and paid for their own army,the balkans was started again by the usa ,

if you cant understand whats going on ,read the book ,or at least watch this video till the end then tell me what you think.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:20:

on the video there is a very good part about Colombia.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:22:

Tomtom is so right on, there's no meaningful distinction between intervening in a genocide and carpet-bombing villages with incendiary ordinance which torches the lungs like rice paper...

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Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:31:

I recommend "La Guia del Perfecto Idiota Latinoamericano".

It is a kick in the nuts to Galeanos' book "Las Venas....".

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:37:

i said it plain enough ,there were no planes that hit the wtc.
and the cell phones ,what a joke ,do you call your mother and say ...hello mum its john smith ,bloody hell your mum would know who it was ,
saddam could do nothing to stop it,he offered bush a live debate ,he said you know bush i got no more weapons the ones you gave me you also bombed ,my doors are open ,we got nothing,you know it...
so what more could he do ,he may have been bad to his own country ,but thats up to them ,



bush was going in no matter what....and its the same with Iran ,

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:43:

From The Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot:

"If trade is theft, according to Galeano, why not launch passionate accusations against Latin Americans for stealing computers and planes from the gringos, televisions and automobiles from the Japanese....Since Latin America imports more than it exports, it's the rest of the world's circulatory system that is at the mercy of the bloody Latin American sting."

"It's a mystery why these thieves (gringo imperialists) in search of others' fortunes spend so much money performing studies, building factories, transporting machinery, technology, and managers, promoting products, distributing goods, and employing workers, not to mention paying the customary bribes....Why don't they just avoid all these costly charades and send in their military forces and carry off our cornucopia once and for all?"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:47:

Soft, like a Coke can?

Will you let me shoot a Coke can at your head at 450 MPH?

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 15:58:

performing studies, building factories, transporting machinery, technology, and managers, promoting products, distributing goods, and employing workers, not to mention paying the customary bribes...

this is just the way they get into the country's ,they put them in debt ,then after they milk them they piss off and fuck up some where else.they have done no good any where ,name some where the yanks have been done good and left it ok ,no where ,it don't happen.

and this is why .

every reason the usa gave for going into the war the Zionists have and do and are braking every one ,but still nothing is done.it is one rule for you another for us ,peace will come in the middle east when and only the Zionists are put in place and the usa stay out.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 16:06:

hollywood ,even if it was full ,it would buckle bend ,it would not come out the other side ,and it would not just vanish into thin air.
and hell the wings on a plane you can walk on them and bust them ,yet these went right in to the wtc ,no way ,the wings would have fall down the front of it ,some part would have ,but nothing did not a single thing,and that no matter have fast it was going is just no possible,and the wtc could have been hit by 3 planes it would not have came down,

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 16:15:

Yes yes let's hand over world hegemony to President Putin so he and his gang of mental midgits can poison more dissidents with radioactive isotopes and butcher journalists, or even better, how about the Chinese, who have set an unbelievable pace of environmental disasters in their own country, and would love to harvest every last natural resource worldwide until we all choke to death on the smog of their economic growth.

The US has plenty of dark figures (Cheney and Henry the K anyone?) and calculates its policies with ruthless self-interest, but the question always has to be, what is the best available option for a hegemonic ideology? Is it crypto-anarchic anti-Semitism, a la Ujay? Not for me, thanks.

I'll take my crass comercialism and like it.

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 16:24:

no build in the world steel ,has ever came down by fire ,not one ,yet here we get not one but 3 all in the same day and wtc 7 was not hit by a plane,it only had a fire on 2 floors ,
spain the building was on fire for 48 hours and it was still standing,other 24 hours 18 hours ,but these less than an hour ,
and they say pancake floors on top of each other ,bollocks,
i know my self even if that happen the inner core would have stayed up ,and if it all went smooth still would have took at the very least 45 seconds,not 15 seconds.
and i know about buildings ,when it came down you should have had a 7 story pile of rubbish at the very least,this is just amazing that not only did it all turn to dust,you end up with a hole not a pile .it just can not happen ,nothing at all adds up on all these 3 building,and that my friend is just not coincidences.all in the same place ,all at the same time ,all owned by the same guy ,and the 1st time ever in the history of steel.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 16:42:

Here is the link to the popular mechanics article which debunked all these myths years ago.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

The debate on this is dead, man. It never really existed except in the feverish minds of a few sallow, wretched, unshaven individuals who never get any action except from hello kitty anime sex dolls.

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 16:49:

And the thing the pentagon ,not only was it impossible for plane to drop down like that ,that fast ,that low ,and not touch a lamp post ,not touch a bit of the grass,and hit the only part of the building where the papers and records for the oil companies were housed,where the records for the drill that day were housed,why not make sure you hit the building by coming down right in the middle of it ,.... And then why not one photo ,when they told old dick ,the plane is 50 miles out ....nothing ....the plane is 40 miles out nothing.... The plane is 20 miles out nothing....the plane is 10 miles out ...still nothing no action no photo no nothing,and again just like the wtc it went in one side and came out the other,and then just like the others it vanished,not one part of it on the out side,and then for the 1st time ever ,4 planes 8 black boxes ,only 6 they say they found ,out of these only one was ok ,and out of this one the only one 7 minutes missing,and all these 1st time ever like magic ,all on the same day.
There is not one pilot in the military or commercial could make this flight,yet a hijacker that could not even land a 2 seater right could ,but not one on this day all 4 could.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 17:32:

Apart from as I say before the second tower was hit they knew it was coming helicopters were in the air yet not one film of a plane ,not one close up with top equipment that they had in use,and all they want to say is the sunlight is showing on the underside of the plane .....what plane.....

Now this rubbish....

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

even if we take that steel loses 50% in heat ,ok ,but this would only be on 4 floors,would do nothing to the rest of the wtc,
most of the fuel would have burnt off ,right away ,
so then they say well all the paper ,bloody hell the walls were gone and so was all the paper ,
the plane knocked off the fireproofing insulation ....yeh right ,on every beam,
then we get this bollocks ....
Rugs, curtains, furniture ,
most never had curtains ,and the windows that did were blinds dont burn,
rugs and carpets 2 of the floors had nothing at all in them ,they were empty,not a thing.
And taking all this into account still no way would it bright down or affect the lower floors in any way ,that steel would have stood up.
Plus you do not get heat from black smoke,so no way could it even have been hot enough to affect the 4 floors it hit ,let alone the other floors.and then do all this in less than an hour ,
A city full of people yet not one got a photo ,not one saw a passenger plane ,the ones that did say it had no windows in it,plus the fact it was going faster than this plane could possible go.
And all the so called experts are all linked in some way to the white house ,
Just ask the people that built the wtc,they tell you 3 planes could have hit it and it would still stand.
Then listen to radio call of the fireman who got to the floor ,and said ,get me 2 lines we can put this out,if a fireman said that this fire was not that hot .
And then last look at the time the fireman said he could put it out ,he had got there ,the fucking thing came down,
How many building have been pulled, bought down, 100s ,but how many even doing it this way turn to dust, not one it just don't happen....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 17:50:

my last on this im posting no more,
the usa so called super power,
got 4 hijacked passenger planes in the air ,got these super duper fighter planes ,that could have got right along side and took photos of the passengers on the planes,they could have videoed the cockpit on these ,but nothing ,not a photo,then on top of this ,hijackers were better pilots, not only did they out smart the super power they hit their targets ,which no other pilot flying today can do,so what can we say ,the super power are just useless,the super power are incompetent,the super power fucked up ,....or is it ...the super power let it happen.or as i say they bloody done it.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 17:57:

hey gringoloid its 9pm now ,phone me please when ever you read this ,thanks.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 18:03:

thats not a 175 too small,no windows in it,not even a logo to be seen ,and this could not possibly fly at 550 miles an hour.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 18:13:

there is just no way this plane could have just sliced though the tower and vanished ,and then come out the other side,if i had a ten pound lump hammer in 5 minutes i could wrack this plane,and you think it could slice steel with no lag .no parts of it falling this side ,just could not happen,unless its magic....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 19:11:

its just not possible for a plane to hit the wtc vanish inside and without a moments loss come right out the other side,its just like the magic bullet that killed jfk that could turn and do all sorts of wonderful things.
and i say bush killed jfk jr jfk son,i say bush and his gangsters killed this boy ,they bought down his plane.....the usa its self is the terrorist,i love going to the usa ,it has got some lovely people ,but all being brain washed,
just ask the don ...thump ...the wtc was a lame duck ,it was not making money ,it was costing too much ,it was not a good deal to even think of buying it,yet one man did,even though on top of it not making money ,the state had said that within 5 years it had to meet standards,and that was going to cost 1 billion dollars,
so who in their right mind would buy a place not making money ,and with 1 billion dollars hanging over it.....
the same guy that just made 7 billion.....and another joke he got paid 2 times for it,he said it was 2 planes 2 attacks ,well if thats not bollocks for you i don't know what is.....
and what were the firemen doing ,the wtc7 ,had a small fire going on in 2 floors ,was in no danger from wtc 1 and 2 they were already down,this building 7 ,was the command central,it had the bunker in it ,it had all the details of a 70 billion dollar rip off from the oil company ,yet not one fireman went or even tried to do any thing at all ,they were told to leave it,then even that came down in its own space,it just does not happen....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 19:48:

Just to many things don't add up ,
If you were going to use an airport you would pick the easiest one ,and that would not be where the president of the USA has his brother in charge, then you want to hit buildings ,again just happens the president of the USA has his brother in charge,
How many airports in the USA ,but it was this one bush was at,
How many times in 40 years was the power shut down in wtc ,not once ,not even when it was bombed,
Yet all that year it was going on and off,
The weekend before it was shut down completely,power ,cameras,every thing ,
Many empty floors were in the wtc ,all the last year ,people were being moved from one floor to the next why,
And is it just possible that the same 2 floors that were shut down the weekend before ,were just the same floors the plane just happened to hit,
Just what are the chances of that,
And just what are the chances ,that on this day of all days you are going to do a drill,
Ok what's the drill,
Oh we are going to pretend a passenger jet has been hijacked and its flown ....lets see where ....I know the wtc ...hows that ... So there are doing a drill on some thing that is so crazy to imagine,and fuck me it happens....how many things has to go on before you know all this could not just happen,then the war starts and every looks away from what is really going on,which is just what they wanted ....and we are nuts for even thinking it,while just the same ones are making billions......follow the money....follow bush and bin lardan they are partners ......
Bauto the woman just been killed ,she said the person that killed bin lardan ,yes that's right ,the person that killed bin lardan is the same that is trying to kill her,now was she right ,is bin lardan dead ......
Don't tell me that a super power with all the satellite shit ,can not find bin lardan a 6foot 6 guy stands out no matter where he is,in a cave ,a tent ,or where he really is at home in Saudi laughing with bush.....or as is said the guy is already dead,
Which ever way you look at it ,they do not want him found....they still need him to carry this shit on......he is a partner for bush.....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 20:13:

When they get together it's like an echo chamber...I guess that's part of the attraction...

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ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 20:50:

and remember this fact when you listen to this shit,never in the history of Iran,has it ever attacked any one .....yes thats right never.....where does the usa think it has a say on Iran and its nuclear power, they are members ,they are a country that has never made an attack ,they are open to checks,they have every right to do what they want,who does the usa think it is....
when the uk are going to build 6 more plants ,the usa are testing more weapons ,that shit about about shooting down a satellite just a cover for testing a new one.
Israeli's nuclear program is out side the un law ,its not open for even a debate ,and its bigger than the uk has....paki ..India china Russia France and loads more all have it ,but the usa think it has a right to say iran cant....
and which is the only bloody country in this world to have used it .....the fucking usa.....

then ask your self this ....is the nuclear weapon any use at all,
the usa has it ,but has never won a war ,and look at the shit its in now ,
paki has it but look they are fucked ,
India has it but doing them no good
Russia has it but still they lost it did them no good,
the jews have it but cant even beat people with sticks and stones,
people with so called box cutters bought the usa to its knees ,so tell me what good is it.....

so get rid of all nuclear weapons every where
keep the usa in the usa
stop the jews in the middle east.make them come in line with the un laws.
force them to give up the land and go back to where they were in 1969,
help the poor Palestinian ,give them there land back ,stop killing them,stop the war crimes on them.
and then as the world start to heal ,lets burn all the bloody churches down and put an end to all this religion shit,put an end to this man made god ,the pope and rome are more corrupt than even Colombia.lets hope there are ufo lets hope there is life on another planet ,excusably if there is ,that in its self will end all this god rubbish.
we don't need religion for any thing,even the usa when they did that fucked up contusion's,they left out all religion,some prick i think in 1952 said lets put in god we trust on the money and flag,who the fuck are they to push that on us....yet you lot took it,time to get rid of it... time to wake up ,even if you believe in your god ,what good is it,if there is a de-vain plan and its gods will ,then why pray to him ,think hes going to change his plans just for you ,every one that prays and says it must be god that done it ,if that were true ,then that would just show the idiot has got no plans ,hes making it all up as he goes along,so believe in what you will but keep it in your own house ,
the biggest killers of all time has been Hitler ,the usa, and if you read that shit book god is top of the list ,the biggest murderous son of whore of all time......i think i just about covered every thing......answer on a post card please address than to gringoloid......

http://www.jukelightning.com

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:19:

I thought the number one killer of all time was Stalin.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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billyb says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:29:

What can one say after a rant like that (except to point out that this is what happens when funding for mental healthcare gets cut)? BTW, do you mean Israel's pre-1967, not 1969 borders? After all conspiracy theories are all about getting the facts right, no Ujay? By poor Palestinians, are you refering to the ones that blow themselves up in buses full of women and children? Oh, and ujay, it's Bin Laden, not Bin Lardan, again , facts are important, even when you are imagining things. You are not doing Gringoloid justice.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:50:

What happened to all the people on the planes that hit, if they were actually substitute planes? Or are they part of the conspiracy?

The WTC had been planted with explosives for a month or more before 911, 4 planes were hijacked, 2 of those hit the 2 large WTC towers, but they really weren't the planes that we think they were, and the real planes had external fuel tanks or munitions mounted on the bottom, but that doesn't matter, because of the explosives in the WTC already, so they must have been a show to make us think that the WTC was destroyed by planes rather than explosives, and this was all done as an excuse to invade Iraq, even though it has done nothing to help our country financially, unless it was actually a Cheney conspiracy because he planned the whole time to profit from anticipated Haliburton contracts.

Did I miss anything?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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billyb says on Feb 21, 2008, 22:00:

RJ, don't forget also that with all these thousands of people need to carry out conspiracy like this and, yet not a single leak beforehand. Oh yeah, another of those pesky facts that just keeping getting in the way of a good conspiracy.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 21, 2008, 22:02:

The questionable object on the bottom of the 767 is the shadow of the bulging undercarriage of the plane. You know, where the landing gear is stowed. And the max speed of a 767 is in the neighborhood of 575 mph or mach .86, give or take. A 767 at full power, in a shallow descent, could easily go faster than that I am sure.

If there was something attached to the plane - why? If it was a substitute plane, wouldn't the cargo hold and passenger compartment hold a sufficient amount of mystery stuff? Or was the external addition just put on for sport? - Like a clue left on purpose to mess with people?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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billyb says on Feb 21, 2008, 22:03:

BTW, I'm curious, to be a real conspiracy, do the jews have to be behind it ultimately?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 00:22:

all can think in your own way ,make up your own mind ,
but i say that them planes were set to remote ,every one on them were already out of it,then the missiles were put in their place,
and if you think the usa would not kill a few hundred your dreaming,
shock and ore ,1st night of bombing killed more,what had these people done ,had these people bombed the usa,was Saddam in any way a treat to the usa ,even if he did has wmd ,they only came from the usa,they set him up with that shit,
were there any terrorists in iraq ,no saddam would have killed them ,but there are a lot there now,
how many people do they say saddam killed ,no where near as many as the usa have killed now is it,
how many were put in containers ,130 to 150 each one over 3000 just took out and shot,while the usa just stood and looked on ,
how many women and kids the usa bombs killed,iraq had done nothing to the usa,
then bush comes on tv and says if saddam and his family don't leave in 48 hours its war, ...so what would have happen if he had left...????so the usa killed and bombed all these people just to get one man,

now the poor Palestinians,yes the ones that blow them selfs up...why...
for 40 fucking years the jews and the usa have been killing them ,they are on their land,they have smashed up just too many towns to list,
they get hit with tanks planes rockets every shit you can think of ,they get there land took ,there homes knocked down,locked in ,airport closed,now they got a sick fucking wall put up ,their kids have no schools ,no play grounds ,no toys ,nothing,and you wonder why they blow them selfs up ,what the fucking hell they got to do ,
they want their land back ,their want their own country ,their want their own life .not the jews not the usa ,their own,if any other country had done or was doing what the jews are doing every one would be up in arms ,the jews and the usa are wrong its that simple....

and don't tell me that if mexico or canada put up a wall round the usa and give you the same shit you would not try do the only thing they can ,they just want their land ,their life ,they just want what was took from them ,they want to stop being killed ,and that is what they fight for ,and they don't bring it to the usa they fight their on their own land,the best way they can,and if you were born here and not the usa ,if you had to put up with this shit day in year after year,don't tell me you would not do the same,

they got no weapons any good ,they got no tanks no planes no army no homes ,and you expect them to fight a war with nothing,so what is left ,they give them selfs ,its not crazy ,its not madness,its a total loss of hope ,it is all they can do ,
and don't try tell me that your kid or a jew kid is worth more than their kids,
but now after 40 years ,after the usa gets its arse kicked yet again in iraq ,after it has to fuck off home again after fucking it all up ,i see the un and Russia and china finally giving the Palestinians the help they should have got,its coming ,but too late for the millions that have been killed,in the name of money power and oil,
so what is the problem in the world....the usa.....

rob ,a 767 even in a descent could not touch 550 ,and any where near 600 would fall apart,yet with the plane going at max a hijacker with a few hours in a 2 seater ,could not only control it but hit just the floors that were shut down,ask any pilot they will tell ,it could not be done.......

http://www.jukelightning.com

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 01:05:

Ujay - my friend who is a pilot told me the speed. If you don't believe that, Google search "cruising speed, Boeing 767." And no, the plane would not break apart at 600 miles per hour. Actually, I'll save you the work; I copied this from a Wilkpedia site:
Cruise speed Mach 0.80 (470 kn, 530 mph, 851 km/h at 35,000 ft cruise altitude)
Maximum Cruise speed Mach 0.86 (493 kn, 568 mph, 913 km/h at 35,000 ft cruise altitude)

The planes were sent on remote control? Then the pilots were actually not murdered? The flight that went down in Pennsylvania didn't really happen ... even with all the cell phone calls by the passengers? Maybe the passengers and crew actually got on the flights that hit the WTC without pilots - and the planes took off without pilots - even though communication is required to be able to take off ... and is recorded by the control tower? The conspiracy must be huge. It would involve 10s of thousands of people.

But the truth doesn't matter. Because 90% of your post Ujay, blames the US and Jews anyway for it happening - we deserved it. Right?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 01:19:

If the US is so sinister, secretive, imperialist, whatever - Why would we not just turn all oil producing areas of the middle east to glass? Everybody hates us anyway. If we wanted, in 30 minutes, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait could be glass parking lots. We are going about things awfully inefficiently and painfully if our motive is what you state. And don't come back with something like, "Well Russia would retaliate." I doubt they would. But if I was wrong, and they did lob a few nukes this way, many wouldn't get off the ground. Those that did, would probably get knocked out of the sky (space) before making it to US airspace. (That is why Russia is so pissed that we took out that falling satellite and why the US took out the satellite. It sure wasn't because of toxic rocket fuel - we proved a point)

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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scotty says on Feb 22, 2008, 03:14:

ujay you crack me up, have you been studying at the University of Rosie Odonnel. snap out it!

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Feb 22, 2008, 03:20:

RJ you are right on target in all catagories.

If the US really wanted to they could take over and lock up and control the oil countries in the middle east and that jerkoff Chavez to, or we could just simply nuke em, but we didnt do either one.

you are right about that satellite to, this was a pre advertised shoot down so that Russia and China and others would be watching to see exactly what we can do from any location in the world. these defense missles can be fired at anytime from anywhere on land, from a plane from a ship from a sub, anywhere and now they know what the score is.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Feb 22, 2008, 03:21:

conspiracy is fun and interesting, but sometimes it gets silly, so silly sometimes that you just have to laugh.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 22, 2008, 05:41:

Face it: You guys "ain't got the brains to debate" with Gringoloid ;)

I don't have the brains or the spare time that mental health institutions afford.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:41:

rob,
If we wanted, in 30 minutes, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait could be glass parking lots. We are going about things awfully inefficiently and painfully if our motive is what you......

as you know the money job has been done here,the usa are keeping in power these so called rulers here,all saudi oil money goes to the usa,the usa then use it,the saudi people are paying a high price to keep a few in power.

the world does not hate Americans,it hates what the white house does in the name of the usa.
the usa is not a happy place ....racist,gangs,god nuts,school shooting,rap shit ,to name just a few ,and yet the usa wants to install this over the world.

take now Iraq,
the country want the usa out,
dont come back and say the government want you to stay,
what government,the puppets the usa put in place ,that will fall the moment you get out,leave today ,leave now ,the killing will stop,then Iraq will sort its self out, they may well have now internal fighting ,but it will be up to them ,it will be internal ,iraq will sort it out ,it will make its own mind up,under saddam they may not have liked it ,but now under the usa is just hell,more hard ship more killing ,nothing working,its fucked,and if you were there you would be fighting the usa,

the same groups here live ok together in Iran,and will do so again if left alone.
but the shit is being made by the jews and the usa,all of it comes from just these 2 .and that is a fact that can not be contested .

the Palestinians,have a case ,in any court in any land they would win,
the jews are not in line with more than 20 laws of the un,but nothing is done ,yet saddam was just 1 so they say and look what happened.when you see what is being done ,its not hard to see where the hate comes from,
the usa could end all this tomorrow,
tell the jews go back to the 1969 line,
leave the Palestinians to its own state ,
leave hamas if thats the government they want ,
let them rule their own land.
only by letting the people of its own country any where ,work it out for them selfs will peace of any kind come.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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Colombiche says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:45:

LOL, he was 20 years too late.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:54:

the uk ,had this land ,what a lot do not know is the uk were gunning down jews trying to land in england,no one wanted them ,so 1948 the uk set in this land for the jew at the cost of the Palestinians,
yes the Palestinians would love to go back to 1948 ,and that would only be right ,
but they have accepted only to go back to 1969,that is all they are asking,
and dont for get the jews were going ahead with nuclear 1st from france,only then did the usa move in and build it for them which brings you to where we are today.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:22:

esanch,
whats your point ,
you could say this for the whole world,the usa the red skins,
the uk the danes the normans the saxons the romans,in 1948 it was the Palestinians,so this is where we are at......

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:30:

muslims esanch is where you make your mistake,
its the Palestinians,keep god and shit out of it,they are all people 1st,not all are muslin....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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billyb says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:53:

Ujay, the Six Day war happened in 1967, not in 1969, again, try to at least get some of your facts (the easy ones) correct.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:10:

who said any thing about the six day war,the papers were signed in 1969 that they would pull back and give the land up,its these papers that is the root of it,i was there in 73 ,i will find the photos put them up ,the ship in with us were unloading tanks ,i took photos of these .

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:20:

no just an old prick that think its time all these killings stopped,for just a few that make money,i was over there when i was in the navy.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 13:26:

ldw,
I am neither Jew, Christian, nor Muslim, but I have a problem with an Islamic holy book whose verse 4:24 says that it would be permissible to take my non Muslim daughter captive and have their way with her against her will.

books say a lot of things,be it karan or the bible or most so called holy books from time gone by,we do not live today or take our morals from any holy book,just like you have done ,people pick and chose which verse they want be it good or bad,

there is always a point to say it could be about religion ,but it seldom ever is ,at the end is just power and money,
but when power is used for evil and greed ,it has to be wrong,
every law we have today is man made law ,by a man or a woman that thinks it should be and it gets on the books and we all have to live by it,its not from a god we live,
as you know i don't believe there is a god or any thing like a god,so there for i don't think there should be any churches .i think its another kind of government to run along side to keep us in line,and at the same time make money its a business ,it brings power,but a god ,i just cant and never will take it in...
this world has just advanced too fast in the last 100 years for its own good,we have things today that years ago were just unimaginable ,we live in a want it now world,moving too fast,we have lost our way ,our morals ,if we ever had any,we are no longer shocked by the most sicken things we do the our selfs,and no god or war is going to put it right.
we do not need 1000s of laws ,even if you take the 10 commandments,you can cut these down ,worship one god is bollocks,dont take the piss out of my name bollocks,
but if we just live by the few left,don't kill, don't steel ,do unto others,honer your mother and father,just these few is all we need,
i don't believe we should need a passport,or a visa ,i would like to see the world as one ,i would like to see the world at peace with its self, will it ever happen ,...no ...not the way it is or going,too much hate in it.
i could go on and on with what i would like to see,but at the end all im trying to say is,
we are here for just a short time,lets make the most of it ,lets stop all these fucking wars ,lets leave this world a better place for them that come behind us,a world at peace,a world that cares for each other,fuck spending money on guns and bombs that just bring hate,spend it on the things that really matter ,the human race.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:07:

as i say you can pick things out from the book ,but like most they do not follow it to the letter ,Muslims on the whole are peace full,most of the problems are and is down to the leaders its power ,not the book.
again as for Pakistani,there never was one till the uk pulled out ,then the power started ,then it went on religion lines or more triable line ,out of that came Pakistani,India ,and the bottom of the heap Bangladesh,
but was never about who was Muslims or not.but now both are nuclear,
so what right has the usa got to try stop Iran.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:32:

see it have it wrong ,no one wants to blow Israel off the map,that was not said ,even thou i feel they got it coming,
i take it you mean iran ,you mean what the usa changed around and said what they thought he said ,
what was said by iran was ...the war mongers of the the Zionists should be stopped by the usa or wiped out.
the Zionists not the jews not israel.
now please post some thing that says wipe israel of the map ...other than from the usa....

http://www.jukelightning.com

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aztec says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:48:

ujay, I must not understand you correctly but Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said on several occasions that Israel and the Jews would be destroyed. And let us not forget he has said the same about the evil USA!

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:50:

no he has not ,show me ,put it up ,
you are just quoting what the usa said he said ,so show me where he has said it...please.

http://www.jukelightning.com

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billyb says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:53:

Yeah Aztec, you have to read Iranian newspapers to get the real "truth". jaja.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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aztec says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:53:

ujay Where do you live and where were you born?

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Monpirri says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:54:

Hellooo? Can someone tell me why this topic is here??? This post should be on the Off Topic section! Where are the moderators?

Rule #2
Stay on topic (Colombia).

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 22, 2008, 15:44:

This thread is now #13 for the most popular PBH thread of all times. With my post now it should tie for #12, and with a few more it could easily make it to the top 10. C'mon guys! We can make it happen! ha ha ha....

I love it that "Chavez wants to ban mini skirts", probably the dumbest thread since I've been in PBH, is #4. But this one... this one is gold!

BTW, I don't know about the rest of his points (in fact, I've barely glanced over the later part of th thread), but ujay seems to be right on one point. Juan Cole, who is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and hates Ahma to the bone, has said that the the whole thing about "making Israel disappear" was a mistranslation. Of course, when you have your own prejudices, who care about what he actually said!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Feb 22, 2008, 16:23:

So T, (or any others) why don't you tell us what Ahma.. really meant, that was mistranslated. Maybe he meant that Israel would cease to exist...on his Xmas (Ramadan?) card list?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 22, 2008, 16:41:

This is Juan Cole's note on the matter. BTW, billy, your snippy humor is not particularly inviting. It's not like I care that much about this BS thread... but I do care to take it to #1!!

"This affair is similar to the attribution to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map." No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said "The occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." Of course Ahamdinejad does wish Israel would disappear, but he is not commander of the armed forces and could not attack it even if he wanted to, which he denies."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 16:43:

http://www.jukelightning.com

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billyb says on Feb 22, 2008, 16:56:

T, just helping you get it to #1.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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aztec says on Feb 22, 2008, 18:38:

Ujay Please answer my question!

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CatGirl says on Feb 22, 2008, 18:43:

Woah great topics, but its one of those threads where you "had to be there" when it all started.

Roc: "My advice, when you want learn any culture or subject, you must begin with clean with NO preconceived notions, prejudices & fears which have often been shaped by our surroundings and culture. Islam is the target TODAY. When one understands one's religion, you will understand and respect all religions because we all experince the same farvor & desires. It is just our narrowness and delusions that we think we are right and all others are wrong."

I like your statements. As I used to be fluent in Arabic, now semi fluent, jajaja
I agree with this line of thinking.

On the note of "understanding another's perspective"
One thing I learned about languages...in order to speak the language you have to understand and think like the culture. I spent a lot of time around this culture, predomiantly Muslim - some Christians. I learned much about understanding and respecting someone else's perspective - (although you dont have to necessarily agree)

On another note- I found that Arabs who embraced the US would lose their accent quickly when they learned English, they would also "think" like an American. I met others that had been in the US for over 20 years and had very heavy accents and kept the mind set of their culture.

But back to religion....I was exposed to incredble hatred for Jews with some of the Muslim Arabs I knew. Almost as if they were taught to think that way from birth - innate. It was passionate and deep..but not rational when asked for specifics. It fed them for some reason. I learned to accept something that I could not change and simply observe the hatred and stay out of it, remain onjective. I also would like to emphasize "some" Muslims.
I found the true pracitcing Muslims that walked the talk - verbalized no hatred towards anyone Jewish and were very open minded, almost embarrassed by those that gave them a bad name.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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podborski says on Feb 22, 2008, 19:41:

the mini skirt thread is #4???


cool!

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 19:42:

Saudi ... and other countries, where if a woman is raped, she is given the death penalty. Where adulterers can be buried chest deep and stoned to death with bricks. Where a woman can be beaten and whipped for not having a family member who is male escort her. Where the penalty for drinking a beer or looking at a Playboy is potentially punishable by death. But where their expats are among the biggest indulger's of drugs, alcohol, and women in the world.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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CatGirl says on Feb 22, 2008, 20:43:

LDW

"Google it."

Yep you can do oodles and oodles of googles. But I hope you are considering the source. As it is limited information. I think I have read many threads here about how afraid people are to go to Colombia....so should I believe everything I google about Colombia?

RJ - Where did you get this information? Egypt and Jordan are more lax. Saudi is fairly extreme but is getting better. Although, I have some doubts about how you are wording that comment, sorry. Have you lived in Saudi Arabia or do you know someone there - RECENT?
That sounds pretty old....mm

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Feb 22, 2008, 21:26:

"the mini skirt thread is #4??? "

And 50 of those posts was Sr T. telling us what a stupid thread it was, jeje.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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CatGirl says on Feb 23, 2008, 02:44:

LDW - you done?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 23, 2008, 06:07:

We're #8 ! And with this post, tied for #7 ! Yeeey!

"And 50 of those posts was Sr T. telling us what a stupid thread it was"

Shit yeah! And not a single thank you note, ha ha!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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CatGirl says on Feb 23, 2008, 09:59:

LDW - I skimmed over your links...sorry this happened, horrible. But 4 Somali wack jobs do not represent the whole of the Arab Nation. Yes, I am sure a devout Muslim would cringe at this propaganda. Additionally, I found the most devout Muslims I knew to be very respectible towards women. They have high expectations of their wives based on their beliefs - again I accept their practices, but do not necessarily agree with everything they do - OK?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 23, 2008, 10:52:

CatGirl, I have never lived in Saudi. My aunt and uncle did for years - worked for Aramco. As recently as 3 months ago, a girl was sentenced to lashings for being raped. That was considered leniency for her crime. It made international news. After pressure from the US and some European countries, she was let out of prison without the lashings. I have seen videos of stonings and beheadings. After seeing my first stoning video, I was in a real dark, depressed mood for a week.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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CatGirl says on Feb 23, 2008, 12:02:

RJ: Thanks for the reply ;). Yes, Saudi is one of the most extreme. I am glad to hear your resource is from the trenches as opposed to the press.
I am a nurse and have worked with many nurses that travel abroad to Saudi. They just follow the rules of the culture, make buckets of money and leave. Never have any problems, but then again they dont live there.

And yes there are horrific acts against human rights all over the world. Korea also has it's extreme and brutal issues too. I have seen horrific videos of things I do not want to put down in words from Korea.
Thanks RJ

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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ujay says on Feb 23, 2008, 12:15:

That's what makes the world so interesting,different cultures way of living life styles food laws,
You may not like it ,but then you don't live there,you are judging it by your standers by your morals by the way you live,
Any country has a right to rule its self the way it wants ,with out interferon from the out side,
No other country has a right to go in and try install their idea of life on them,
Not by war or other means ,and it shows in history that it does not work any way ,
Only the people of that country from the inside can change it , it must be them self's ,it must come from inside ,
So before you run some where down just based on your way of life on your idea of right and wrong ,
Remember when in Rome do as the romans do,
Or just don't go there.......

http://www.jukelightning.com

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billyb says on Feb 23, 2008, 18:45:

T, a belated thanks to you.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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scotty says on Feb 23, 2008, 23:50:

gringoloid, SSDI stands for Social Security Disability Insurance.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 24, 2008, 00:27:

No problem CatGirl. But I sure haven't "been in the trenches" myself. Honestly, I really have no desire to go to any of the strict Muslim countries/theocracies. I actually have a desire not to get anywhere near them. I will admit a fear, an uneasiness, whatever you call it. My family who worked over there finally came back - because of the some of the things they saw (and they were quite sheltered relatively speaking), and because they had already made their millions (I assume). Anyway, I definitely haven't "been there, done that." And I hope I don't. But yes, I got a few kin-folk who spent time "over there", and quite a few friends also who have lived in Saudi, UAE, and Kuwait. Compared to their stories, the stuff I have seen in our nightly news is pretty tame.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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CatGirl says on Feb 24, 2008, 03:08:

LDW
"Rape of non Muslim women is perfectly acceptable to the teachings of the religion. Where they have the means to get away with it, it happens big time"

This part I can agree with you on in regards to my experiences. But it is the result of subjective interpretation of the teachings...warped ones I might add too :0

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Feb 24, 2008, 03:19:

What I don't get is that you guys seem to be insinuating that we tolerate it.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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aztec says on Feb 24, 2008, 07:09:

Europe may not have war, but it already has violence: its political authorities cringe and scurry and evade and lie in the face of actual or threatened violence by its Muslim communities. If its duly-constituted governments abandon their monopoly of violence to self-appointed religious leaders, the likelihood is that a river of blood will flow.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Feb 24, 2008, 08:28:

*Loid, censored?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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aztec says on Feb 24, 2008, 09:08:

England's Daily Mail today: February 24, 2008

'It was my duty to speak out over Islamic extremists'

"A senior Church of England bishop who received death threats in the wake of comments he made about Islamic extremists today insisted it is his "duty" to speak out.

The Bishop of Rochester, The Rt Rev Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, was placed under police protection after writing in a national newspaper in January that Islamic extremists are creating "no-go areas" for non-Muslims in Britain."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_artic...

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gatogris says on Feb 24, 2008, 10:25:

The question that remains unelucidated here is whether the conflict is between religious faiths themselves, cultures (or civilizations, in Huntingdon's paranoid phrase), or whether what we are seeing is an ad hoc cobbled together extremist view point that is flexible enough to be manipulated into brainwashing techniques that suit many disenfranchised, marginalized populations that have been created as an accident of history.

You may not be surprised that I support the latter conclusion.

There is no unified Islamic extremism in the sense of a cohesive ideology. There are ambitious clerics, seeking to generate money and followers. There are enormous populations of disenfranchised youth who are castaways on the shores of the worlds megalopolises, possessed of vague, unfulfilled dreams of grandeur, and some shreds of religious education, but at the same time constantly reminded of their own complete insignifigance in the world order. And there are those who have been victimized by some ugly, unforseen consequence of colonialism or US hegemony.

There is a religious faith which has historically been extraordinarly flexible to interpretation as well as extremely virulent, helping to generate the great (and relatively tolerant) civilizations in Moorish Spain and Suleiman's Ottomon Empire, but also savage kangaroo courts that don't even bother to mask collective sadism, where women are stoned to death for even the insinuation of adultery.

There is also a massive agglomerating force behind Western civilization, as English becomes the world's lingua franca, and Western thinking permeates every part of the mass consumer culture that is aggressively exported into every nook of the world. It should come as no surprise that a conservative blowback has occurred, nor that it should be linked to a religion that generates passionate adherents. The marginalized worker ants of the world's order and a twisted version of an ancient religion are a good match, especially for a young, poorly-educated, ambitious man who is toiling away in relative obscurity as well.

Who were the sad, vicious drones of 9/11? Who composes the butchers of the Mahdi Army? Who were the pathetic outcasts who boarded the subway that morning in London? Does anyone seriously believe that these people have a serious understanding of Islam? That's like saying that the Columbine shooters had a coherent philosophy.

People have always been good at channeling unfocused rage. It has nothing to do with Islam.

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gatogris says on Feb 24, 2008, 10:25:

The question that remains unelucidated here is whether the conflict is between religious faiths themselves, cultures (or civilizations, in Huntingdon's paranoid phrase), or whether what we are seeing is an ad hoc cobbled together extremist view point that is flexible enough to be manipulated into brainwashing techniques that suit many disenfranchised, marginalized populations that have been created as an accident of history.

You may not be surprised that I support the latter conclusion.

There is no unified Islamic extremism in the sense of a cohesive ideology. There are ambitious clerics, seeking to generate money and followers. There are enormous populations of disenfranchised youth who are castaways on the shores of the worlds megalopolises, possessed of vague, unfulfilled dreams of grandeur, and some shreds of religious education, but at the same time constantly reminded of their own complete insignifigance in the world order. And there are those who have been victimized by some ugly, unforseen consequence of colonialism or US hegemony.

There is a religious faith which has historically been extraordinarly flexible to interpretation as well as extremely virulent, helping to generate the great (and relatively tolerant) civilizations in Moorish Spain and Suleiman's Ottomon Empire, but also savage kangaroo courts that don't even bother to mask collective sadism, where women are stoned to death for even the insinuation of adultery.

There is also a massive agglomerating force behind Western civilization, as English becomes the world's lingua franca, and Western thinking permeates every part of the mass consumer culture that is aggressively exported into every nook of the world. It should come as no surprise that a conservative blowback has occurred, nor that it should be linked to a religion that generates passionate adherents. The marginalized worker ants of the world's order and a twisted version of an ancient religion are a good match, especially for a young, poorly-educated, ambitious man who is toiling away in relative obscurity as well.

Who were the sad, vicious drones of 9/11? Who composes the butchers of the Mahdi Army? Who were the pathetic outcasts who boarded the subway that morning in London? Does anyone seriously believe that these people have a serious understanding of Islam? That's like saying that the Columbine shooters had a coherent philosophy.

People have always been good at channeling unfocused rage. It has nothing to do with Islam.

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gatogris says on Feb 24, 2008, 10:26:

Bump

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CatGirl says on Feb 24, 2008, 13:44:

LDW "The interpretations I gave are not mine!! "

I know my dear, I understood ;) reeelaax.....its alll good OK? ...Purrr


LDW: "Do you really seriously think that it is a warped interpretation to suggest that having sex with a woman held captive amounts to rape?"

This comment is proof of how reading comments can be misinterpreted - you are totally missing the ball I threw you. Maybe you need a massage....this is getting too subjective for me...sorry - no offense intended. Kitty is done - ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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ujay says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:13:

what is going on in the world today is just what i have been saying for 30 years,
every one should watch this,

http://www.jukelightning.com

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CatGirl says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:22:

Ujay: Thanks...I heard some horrifically sad stories from Palestinians. They are passionate and have no interest in being oppressed. The so called "reservations" that were allotted to them back in what...the 80's? A joke. Anyways, there are so many sides to this story, you really have to be there for it.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 24, 2008, 23:44:

Gatogris - then where is the widespread condemnation of atrocities? If some scum-bag hangs a black or shoots an Arab in the US, the entire Christian community comes out to show their disgust and to profess their sorrow at the act. When the WTC got attacked on 9-11, the Palestinians were partying in the streets like it was Carnival.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 26, 2008, 22:08:

We have done it before - and I suppose we would do it again ("clean up their shit mess").

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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aztec says on Feb 29, 2008, 12:16:

Europeans are always willing to spend blood from American boys and girls on their causes.

Just look at Afghanistan. They (with the exception of England) are not capable or don't have the courage for meeting their commitments.

Their troops stay in safe areas and will not come to the aid of those doing the heavy fighting.

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