kill who?

aNdReSk says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:21:

they are the same crap

(even thought i really dislike chavez, i dont want anyone to be killed O_o)

Sr Tertius says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:25:

Chavez is more comparable to Musharraf... with the exception that Musharraf is actually a dictator (not a figure of speech) backed by the US.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

RAAAY says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:26:

agree.........both the same crap....................but thinking that they are " mostly illiterate islamic pakistani fundamentalists " is'nt really correct. These folks are far from illiterate...... Scary thing is, they are very, very intelligent.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

podborski says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:29:

both are equally ignorant, but the only one that is truly evil is the one who acts violently, rather than just talks about it.

so it's pretty clear, as I doubt old Pat is going to strap a bomb on himself and go try to kill chavez. But that's not necessarily true of the islamic terrorists.

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:43:

None of the above.....by far the worst war criminal on the planet and a terrorist by way of starting an illegal war is the moron GEORGE BUSH......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:43:

Same-o, same-o.

Medellin Traveler says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:48:

I say BOTH, illiterate islamic pakistani fundamentalists and pat robertson!

Chelesupercono says, "None of the above.....by far the worst war criminal on the planet and a terrorist by way of starting an illegal war is the moron GEORGE BUSH......"

I would have to put Dick Cheney ahead of Bush on this one, but understand were you're coming from.

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:49:

Yep, chump Cheney is da champ!

And the top contender Repub. says we will be in Iraq for YEARS!

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:50:

one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:53:

Freedom Fighter? George Bush? I suggest you ask that question of the 2.5mil displaced Iraqis now living in refugee camps what they think.........total bullshit!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

sloopskipper says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:53:

That might be a stretch, GL, but I can see where you're coming from.

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 13:56:

If McCAIN gets in power our country is lost.......I pray that does not happen because if he does, you know we are f^cked.......period

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:00:

I was referring to the OP not to George Bush....or anyone else.

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:02:

George Bush may be your enemy as well as mine........but to Pat Robertson he may be the greatest guy in the world.

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:06:

Pat Robertson is a dickhead........besides he and GB talk to God at the same time....don't they?

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:07:

George Bush, by his own definition is a terrorist.........he has told the press that anyone "who kills women and children is a terrorist." Then his administration that ordered the bombing of Fallujah into dust in 2005 would be considered terrorists.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were 50 million christians or more that support GB.

diabloblas says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:08:

pakistan has a less than 50 % literacy rate

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:09:

cheles....you need some lessons in reading comprehension.

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:26:

I can read and comprehend very good, thank you......although I sometimes have difficulty with babble such as the crap you write......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

diabloblas says on Feb 20, 2008, 14:52:

there's no doubt that an educated pat robertson is a little off his rocker claiming that god speaks to him

& there's no doubt that the mostly illiterate pakis chanting for the death of salmon ruskie for writing a novel are equally crazy

...the question is: which side should be held most accountable for their actions if somebody takes them up on their requests

...to whom would a western culture court of law give out the biggest sentence

...this is a question i ask myself & family

...i witnessed both parties in person...they both scare me...albeit in a more secure environment when in the presence of the "reverend" stateside than surrounded by islamics in rawalpindi & islamabad

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 15:57:

the world is run by religious crazies and always has been and it makes no difference which one is in charge.

pat roberson is respected by whom? neocons? or his weak minded followers?

i've argued this point with the Pope of Iliteracy above, chelspercono, before. There is no difference in religious fanatacism.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam in their combined history equal hate, bigotry, and warmongering. None of these philosophies are better than the other.

diabloblas says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:05:

i don't want to debate that answer gringoloid even though i agree with some of it

..i really am trying to pose an honest question that perplexes me & my immediate family...my son says hands down robertson should get the harshest sentence...slam dunk

...me?...i don't know for sure.

...i do believe that randy duke cunningham... the ace fighter pilot of the vietnam era ... should have gotten a heavier sentence than the guy who bribed him...but that didn't happen

tomtom33 says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:06:

What makes a war legal?

Just think what that makes the Democrats. They were beaten twice by a moron.

I'm no Robertson fan, but I do believe that he recanted his death wish.

durito says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:24:

Pat Robertson is educated and respected?

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:26:

diablo...it is an honest question........and really, i think i gave you an honest answer.

the judeo christian wars against the muslims are based on a total hoax, the Scofield Bible, go ahead and google that term and you will find a hoax beyond belief. this is where Billy graham, Benny Zinn, etc, and all the christian war mongers come from.

the same thing with Islam, the way that it is practiced stands for basically everything I fight in life. i don't thnk we should be there bombing them, but if they had the means, they would be doing the same thing to us.

The 5th commandment says Thou shall not kill.........it doesn't say thou shalt not murder.

The idea that chistians, jews, and muslims spend their time plotting how to murder each other really sickens me. nothing buy a bunch of hypocrites.

so i say the same sentence for both.

huskie says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:28:

You mean Salmon Rushdie? The Indian/English author of the Satanic Verses? Boy I enjoyed that book sooo much, No comparison at all with Mr Roberts, what a jerk and crook, and whos' more educated? Undoubtely Rushdie is , he is brilliant
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:31:

A war could be called legal in the sense that when one country is attacked by another, there is a clear cut premise for declaring war upon the other. Iraq did not attack the United States at any time, Bush, Cheney and Wolfowitz lied and clearly manipulated the American public with the fear of terrorism to start a war.......

And yes, I do agree, the fact that this moron was twice elected is the worst tragedy to happen in my lifetime. What it says about the voting public is unprintable.....

We all get the death wish......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:39:

huskie....i don't think the OP is making that comparison. he is saying if a fundamentalist christian wants to murder chavez and a fundamentalist muslim wants to murder Rushdie, who should get the stiffer sentence?

I'm saying I don't see any difference between the two. Murder is murder.

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:42:

this thread just proves my point......christian, jewish, muslim.....how come so much talk about murder?

aztec says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:50:

What some wild eyed lunatics on this post. You clowns are actually comparing Robertson with Osama bin Muhammad bin 'Awad bin Laden and his followers!

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:54:

aztec...let me guess......you're a christian who hates muslims?

Chelesupercono says on Feb 20, 2008, 16:57:

What? Osama, Pat, & George all butt buddies? Could that be true...? ummmmmm

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

aztec says on Feb 20, 2008, 17:02:

We could certainly use old GIB now. The inmates of the asylum are running loose here with no supervision.

billyb says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:19:

Did you guys hear about Rushdie's new book? It's called "Buddha, you fat fuck".

bufalo says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:41:

knock off Bush, make the world a safer place

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Medellin Traveler says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:44:

bufalo says, "knock off Bush, make the world a safer place"

NO WAY IN HELL!

This would put Dick Cheney in charge. I may take a bullet to save Bush's life, and mankind as well.

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

robi666 says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:47:

Medoblado, are you trying to win the prize for the most stupid post on PBH?

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

gringoloid says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:49:

bufalo....i don-t know if you live in the usa but i would delete your comment above if i were you.

Robert Jorge says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:53:

Gringoloid gives sound advice Bufalo.

RAAAY says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:57:

We know what Buffalo meant.........." Knock off Bush "....he meant..... knock it off....leave him alone........Bush is good..........he'll make the world a safer place...........

yes ?

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 21:52:

cheles you need to get back on the meds

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 21:59:

the world is run by religious crazies...gringoloid.

hmmm..please tell me which religion is was exactly that Hitler belonged to? How about Kruschev? what crazy religion is it that runs China? Cuba? North korea? shall i continue?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 22:05:

cheles, you said Bush manipulated everyone? wow ! the Libs say he dumb, but yet he was smart enough to fool all those democrats that voted for the war like Hillary did. So either Bush is not dumb after all he is pretty smart (OR) the dems are pretty stupid?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

scotty says on Feb 20, 2008, 22:08:

bufalo the secret service will be visiting your home soon.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

RAAAY says on Feb 20, 2008, 22:13:

scotty says on Wednesday February 20th, 2008 22:05:

...... " those democrats that voted for the war like Hillary did "............


There was a vote to go to war....????
You obviously watch too much of FOX news...........Fair and brainwashed

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

huskie says on Feb 21, 2008, 03:38:

Loid I was not really comparing any of them I was just stating that, Roberts is a crook, so is Chavez, as far as Musharraf, he will go in the history pages as a murderer and Bush supporting his corrupted government. I am glad Musharraf is out in the new elections.
I also think that Musharraf was a kiss A$$, but in the end, he will betray the US.
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

huskie says on Feb 21, 2008, 03:44:

I met Wolfowicz when he was Ambassador to Indonesia in the 80's. What a prick!!
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

aztec says on Feb 21, 2008, 04:10:

huskie, You are just upset he (Wolfowicz) didn't make a pass at you.

tomtom33 says on Feb 21, 2008, 04:37:

There was a vote to allow use of force or some such wording. It was tantamount to a vote for war. How some like to parse words.

miamimike says on Feb 21, 2008, 04:56:

Cheney is Evil but a Moron Like Bush he is Not! Far from it,,,That said, I would never vote for Cheney but I give the Devil his due,,,

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." GW Bush

Medellin Traveler says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:34:

I'm not a religious man, but I pray to gawd every night that there is a hell...and more importantly, that there is room in hell for Dick Cheney!

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:39:

scotty........Hitler didn´t run the world......Kruschev didn't run the world.......China doesn't run the world........Cuba doesn't run the world.......North Korea doesn't run the world......shall I continue?

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:44:

Hillary is OUT. I changed my tag line to Obama.I knew it was going to be a democrat but I thought surely Hillary over Obama.

I'll take Obama and you can have any other candidate (McCain, Hillary, Bloomberg) and I'll give you 9 to 5 odds.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:51:

yea, i think i should......Hitlers motivation was from the Thule Society and Theosophy, a religion, that attempted to remove Jewish control of the the Aryan race.

Krushchev was an atheist....................a religion and a belief system............(you must know what god is to say that god doesn't exist), so an atheist is confirming the existence of god...........................Stalin, Comintern, Kruschev were "religious" inspired in trying to bring about world communism.

Cuba and NK are such nothing countries that can run themselves let alone run the world......(???)

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:55:

"so an atheist is confirming the existence of god" (and a very long ellipsis)

I know I'm drifting off topic--but so are most posts in PBH, so who cares--but would you mind elaborating on this? As a card-carrying atheist, I don't see how I am "confirming the existence of god".

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 05:56:

scotty................The Crusades?................the past 1000 years about..................what Crusade are we in now? the 30th?

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:09:

"Krushchev was an atheist....................a religion and a belief system............(you must know what god is to say that god doesn't exist), so an atheist is confirming the existence of god"" G'loid

Mr Loid we disagree. An athiest confirms the existence of god? If I told you Santa Clause existsed and you said "no he doesn't" does that mean you confirm his existence? Please!

An atheist only confirms that the theist accepts god's existence.

You had it right when you said, "you must know what god is to say that god doesn't exist" - an athiest knows what god is, and doesn't confirm the existence of god.

If anything an atheist recognizes the concept of god and confirms the existence of god in the theist's mind.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:12:

......... WHAT ???....................... There's no Santa Claus....??........F**

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:13:

U.S. involvement in World War I was caused by Chaim Weizmann's, Balfour Agreement, where Britain agreed to partition the middle east for a home for zionists.

Weizman discovered how to synthesize acetone, an important product for war and Germany had cornered the market for this product.

Weizmann promised Lord Rothschild that he would use his contacts in the jewish media in the United States to draw america into the war and to give the formula for acetone to the British if they would create a homeland for the jews.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:17:

The US was neutral............until guess what? Before 911, before JFK denied Israel nuclear weapons, before the Pearl Harbor Hoax, there was the Lusitania Hoax.

The Lusitania was 'sent' to a spot off the coast of england where it was torpedoed by german uboats.

The US quickly joined the war.

RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:20:

Off the coast of England..............??

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:23:

World War II was just a continuation of World War I.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:38:

World War II began in March of 1917 when Leon Trotsky left NY, bound for Russia with 20 million in gold from Baron Rothschild, leader of the London banking cartel, to bring about a revolution in Russia.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:49:

glad you asked................i am an agnostic......i do not know whether god exists or not......i don't confirm or deny the existence of god.

if i told you i have a million dollars in cash under my desk right now and you denied my belief.................then you would have to know what a million in cash looks like.

by denying, (or confirming), that i have a million in cash under my desk, you would have to know what is a million dollars.

by denying the existence of god, a person has to 'know' what god to be able to deny it. there fore atheism is a belief system and a religion.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 06:59:

actually atheism is just another creation of the bankers and cabalists, ........dynastic families who own the central banking cartel and dominate industry, culture and government, world wide. The names Rothschild, Warburg, Rockefeller and Schiff will suffice.

War, and modern history in general, is an occult inspired charade designed to destroy civilization by undermining our relationship to God, family, nation and race.

that's why i pick on all of you feminists, multiculturalists, politically correct types.......and why I WAS a revolutionary.

Monopolistic capitalism meeting tolalitarianism cannot come about without the breakdown of western culture, breakdown of borders between countries, breakdown of the family through feminism, loss of hope through the religion of atheism.......

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:01:

sorry Raay, the Irish coast........but the point still stands.........the Lusitania was sent to spot off of Ireland where the german u boats were using as a base. This was the first false flag, or 911, to get us involved in a war.

aztec says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:03:

gringoloid, you have too much free time on your hands.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:04:

Ha ha, gringoloid, you have to read a little bit more about what atheism is about (it's described in the back of our cards). Most mainstream atheists (a la Dawkins) don't believe in God (capital G: It's a proper name) because the question of whether it exists or not is meaningless, just like the question of whether unicorns or fairies exist (are you a unicorn agnostic?). I sure know how the Christian God looks like: It's a bearded old white guy who used to be pretty pissed off but now he's kind of cool. Does that confirm its existence? Ridiculous.

Agnostics, for all I care, are just atheists without the cojones to admit it.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:08:

Of course atheism is a belief system and a religion. Not having any belief system IS a belief system.

But that wasn't my point to you.

If I told you a I had a zweebie under my desk - you don't know what that is? It's a floating marble that gives me immortality, comes from the planet Zoltar, follows me everywhere and when I squeeze it out pops a million dollars.

There I explained the concept of zweebies. You now know what they are relative to me - a confirmed Zweebologist. Do they exist relative to you? If you deny it exists than that means you are a believer in Zweebies.

Knowing what something is - because it was explained to you; no matter how bizzare - does not mean the denier accepts its existence. We are splitting hairs here but I cannot get behind this statement:

"so an atheist [by denying the existence of god] is confirming the existence of god" - Gringoloid

I'll say it a 3rd time: An atheist only confirms that the theist accepts god's existence.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:10:

Sr Tertius..............rubbish.....................if there is no God.............how then do you explain my getting laid on both Saturday and Sunday night......??

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:13:

"how then do you explain my getting laid on both Saturday and Sunday night......??"

Nature is a cruel bitch, but she also provides some pleasures... sometimes two days in a row!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:31:

Quote: 'An atheist only confirms that the theist accepts god's existence.'

I think that statement is quite limited in describing atheism. The root of the word comes from the Greek, atheos,....which means godless.

I would think that someone describing themselves as an atheist would feel that the biggest part of their haha, "belief", would come from a strong position within themselves that either 'affirms the nonexistence of gods' or 'rejects theism.'

An alcoholic defining his condition as, "i only confirm that others can handle liquor better than I do', would be true, but weak.

and you're certainly right, this is shaving hairs..........that is why i am an agnostic in these matters,..........i don't confirm or deny anything in religion...........and my mind is open.

huskie says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:40:

Raaay. you are so funny, LOL
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

sloopskipper says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:40:

New mini scandle in U.S.:

THE LONG RUN
For McCain, Self-Confidence on Ethics Poses Its Own Risk
By JIM RUTENBERG, MARILYN W. THOMPSON, DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK and STEPHEN LABATON
As his relationship with a female lobbyist underscores, John McCain’s confidence in his own integrity has sometimes seemed to blind him to potential conflicts of interest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/us/politics/21mccain.html?th&emc=th

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:43:

Quote: 'An atheist only confirms that the theist accepts god's existence.' - me

"I think that statement is quite limited in describing atheism" - Mr Loid

You are using my quote out of context which is the only reason I'm posting back. I was not describing the entire creed of atheism in 10 words - only speaking in the context of what we were talking about, namely addressing your, "so an atheist [by denying the existence of god] is confirming the existence of god"

Lets agree the atheist admits to knowing more than the agnostic.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:46:

Didn't Salmon Rushkie win the Iditarod dogsled race last year?

Now, if you're talking about SALMAN RUSHDIE and the fatwa against him, first of all, it wasn't "illiterate pakistanti fundamentalists" who called for his death, it was the Ayatollah Khomeini who was the leader of Iran. Now, you can say a lot of bad things about the Ayatollah for sure, but he most certainly wasn't illiterate.

Pat Robertson is just a yokel.

Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:49:

An agnostic considers that he/she knows nothing and is open to the possibility that God might exist.

The atheist assures God does not exist.

Therefore, rampant atheists are just as arrogant as smug religious individuals.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:49:

Tert......there is an atheistic site i've been on for 7 years, it now has over 130,000 comments in one thread and no one has come come close to defining atheism.

I have no idea what you are talking about above or how it relates to me.

Your Quote ........." I sure know how the Christian God looks like: It's a bearded old white guy who used to be pretty pissed off but now he's kind of cool. Does that confirm its existence? Ridiculous.

You and cheles need some reading lessons..............I don't confirm or deny anybodys belief in god. I don't even believe you need a god for a religion to exist. I only say your atheism is a belief system.

Not being able to confirm or deny the existence of a god has nothing to do with lack of courage......its just a lack of evidence.

Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:55:

I guess it all depends on what your definition of God is.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 21, 2008, 07:57:

Number 1
because the other ones are crazy anyway...

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:02:

Quote: "Lets agree the atheist admits to knowing more than the agnostic."

It is an atheists "belief system" that he knows more than the agnostics." Just like Judeo/Christians think they know more than muslims?

Your belief system is more correct than mine? Your beliefs are correct and everyone elses are wrong? The arrogant Sr Tert thinks he has a monopoly on 'belief system thought'.......The Pope has some kind of belief that God talks through him.........you're all religionists and you're all alike. (atheists, that is)

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:09:

"Number 1
because the other ones are crazy anyway..." Kat

Sounds more like number 2

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:12:

Colombiche......that is exactly it..............that smugness defined as, ----my beliefs "are better" than yours.............the same as any religionist.

The full phrase should be "Fundamentalist Atheist".

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:20:

and btw, i've been 'crucified' by Warren Commission enthusiasts, 911 official story believers, and religionists of all kinds for about 40 years........i can take any thing you can dish out so don't view me as an enemy.............i'm not trying to convince you of anything and really don't care what you believe.

i simply enjoy the debate of comparative religion and how it relates to politcs, wars, and government hoaxes.

podborski says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:30:

I disagree colombiche. I for example don't believe in a lot of things (leprauchans, bigfoot, angels, santa etc.) but am quite willing to believe if someone shows me a shred of actual proof.

How is that smug?

I don't know how the universe started, but it really doesn't matter to me. I am happy to start with what I know, which is that we are here.

Why spend a lot of time pondering about things that can never be proved/disproved?

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:45:

Gringoloid,

Like rocinante, I'm not attempting to define atheism--I'm just pointing at what people like Dawkins and many other atheists (like me) believe (yes, believe) to be self evident: That asking whether God exists or not is like asking whether leprechauns exist or not: It makes no sense, it cannot be proven, there is nothing you can show me that will persuade me otherwise, just like there is nothing I can show anyone to persuade him that 2 plus 2=5, it's not an empirical question, and that's where your confusion stems from. Agnostics confuse uncertainty with senselessness. At least religious people know that what they believe is based on faith, which is fine by me.

"The arrogant Sr Tert thinks he has a monopoly on 'belief system thought'"

Really? Where do I say that? Because I think I'm right on something means I'm "arrogant"? Should I presume that you believe that you are wrong in what you believe? That seems rather confusing to me.

"I have no idea what you are talking about above or how it relates to me."

Your statement, let me remind you, was that "an atheist is confirming the existence of god." That is a false statement, one very different from your later claim "I only say your atheism is a belief system." Of course it is a belief system! Just like veterinary or molecular biology are belief systems. And let me break it to you: Agnosticism is ALSO a belief system. A pretty inconsistent one, but a belief system nonetheless.




In any case, this discussion certainly beats the thread on whether Chavez's farts smell or not.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:46:

pod, it is only smug if you are enforcing or pushing your belief of non belief of leprauchans on others. thats why i call it Fundamentalist Atheism.

religion is about control of people. you can´t break down western culture without breaking down christianity..........just like the Russians did in the early 30s when they removed christianity.

can someone also be happy trying to determine how the universe started?? is it your belief, or a fact that the creation of the universe can 'never be proved or disproved?'

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:47:

Wow, is it possible that pod and I agree on something...? It may be the lunar eclipse yesterday...

"it is only smug if you are enforcing or pushing your belief of non belief of leprauchans on others"

And who's doing that here?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:50:

SrTert pulled out his' Bible' by Richard Dawkins before and gave me a sermon on how his is the only belief system...............of course, Sr tert says anyone elses beliefs are ridiculous. thats smug.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:54:

Gringoloid.

I don't know how to be more clear. Maybe in caps?

I never said that Dawkins' kind of atheism is the only belief system.

I never said that anyone else's beliefs are ridiculous.

I AM saying that you made a ridiculously inaccurate statement about atheism. Am I pushing my beliefs onto you when I point that out? Geez... sorry...

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:56:

To the atheist, asking wether or not god exists is as absurd as asking wether or not lepruchauns exist. In the atheist's humanistic self preceived level headedness the question is not even a valid question. The atheist understands what god and lepruchauns are and what they mean to theists and to Ray. By denying the question, or by answering "no" in no way deems that god and lepruchauns exist in the mind of the atheist.

Always after me Lucky Charms. Better than Cavez farts. Raining here....

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 08:57:

"Richard Dawkins " the author of the 'Selfish Gene' ?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:01:

tert...........i read through my posts..........i don't see where i said,........."an atheist is confirming the existence of god." please put the time of the post on when i said that so i can read it again.

podborski says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:03:

I'm sure it'll be the only thing sr t! : )

GL, now we'd have to get into the definition of 'proof' to answer your question.

Let me see if I can put it this way. I think it is possible, very remotely however, that some scientist could find a great, possibly correct, explanation (or proof if you will) for how the universe began.

If so, fabulous, it would be fascinating. I would not be intelligent enough to know whether he was right or not, but with a bit of study, maybe some help from other experts I might be convinced.

So I do think it is possible, just extremely unlikely, that the beginning can be 'proven', and it depends on if you accept as proof an expert's opinion (as I would in some cases), as opposed to having to 'see it' with my own eyes.

Same with UFO's. I don't think they exist. If someone asked me, I'd say no. But is it possible? Sure, and I'd change my mind when I see one up close. But not until then.

Personally, I sure hope they exist, it would be very cool. I'd be the first to volunteer to go to another galaxy. As long as I could take a colombiana with me : )

RAAAY says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:06:

Well.............................here's all the PROOF you should need to confirm the existance of....
..............

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:11:

"tert...........i read through my posts..........i don't see where i said,........."an atheist is confirming the existence of god." please put the time of the post on when i said that so i can read it again." G'loid

nos estas jodiendo?

We've been discussing this all morning, I've only quoted you 3 times, and you don't remember saying this:

Thursday February 21st, 2008 5:51: "Krushchev was an atheist....................a religion and a belief system............(you must know what god is to say that god doesn't exist), so an atheist is confirming the existence of god"

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:24:

"nos estas jodiendo?"

That was my very same thought. Thanks, rocinante.

Pod,

I'd say there's a fundamental difference between believing in God and believing in UFOs. Someone may show me a UFO, or may collect evidence of their existence, and then I may be persuaded. THAT I can be agnostic about. But God is almost by definition that which cannot be explained: You can only believe in him through faith. I cannot think what would someone have to show me to persuade me of his existence. But if E.T. knocks on my door, I'm willing to consider that he came from outer space.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:44:

ok, thanks.....we're going back to Krushchev.....I thought it was just above....i'm on wi fi and i really didn't even read all those posts when every body jumped in.

when roci said, "of course atheism is a belief system", i thought is was over.

i gave my definition of atheism......'a position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism.' roci gave his and I said it was not encompassing.

i then gave the greek root of atheism, atheos, and I said it means 'godless.'

you would have to know what god is to say it does not exist, wouldn't you?

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:51:

that was also in another part of the thread that was talking about religion and war. my point in that part of the thread was how atheism was being used as part of Comintern to defeat the Jesuits, Protestants, etc.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 09:57:

"you would have to know what god is to say it does not exist, wouldn't you?"

We're moving in circles.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:25:

Sr tert......Quote: Agnosticism is ALSO a belief system.

sorry, wrong again...

If an Atheist says, There is NO GOD. 100% assurance. THAT'S FAITH.

Religionist says , There IS A GOD. 100% assurance. THAT'S FAITH.

Agnostic says, Sure religionist, your claim that God exists or atheist, your claim that god does not exist COULD be true (like any other thing in the universe that is claimed), however until you provide some evidence, I'm not accepting your claims. Once you provide some evidence, I will change my mind. This is not a belief sytem, sorry.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:36:

Gringoloid. As I said, we're moving in circles. I already argued that atheists (like me, like Dawkins, I think like rocinante too) do not believe in God because, by definition, it cannot be proven to exist. That's not faith: That's derived from a premise of how things are proven to exist.

Basing your belief on evidence (like I do, like you seem to do) is also a belief system.

Address my points in my prior posts and we'll continue.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:36:

Dogma is the affirmation of something as truth despite lack of proof for or against it.

It is a characteristic of a belief system.

Atheism (at least STRONG atheism) holds the dogma that God doesn't exist (as opposed to theists who hold that God does exist).

Colombiche says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:46:

phewwwww..... Thank God I'm an atheist ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:50:

what else can I say? I just read for the first time above where you say it is a belief system. that is my only point.

i must be more open minded than you, roci, and dawkins...........

you don't think god can be proven NOT to exist?

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 10:53:

on another thread, I showed where a religionist has been defending the existence of god through science since 2005.

I have never seen a religionist hold on for more that a few weeks on the atheist websites.

let me see if i can find the link.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:00:

Had you read my posts you wouldn't be asking this:

"you don't think god can be proven NOT to exist?"

Answer: NO. What part of "it is not a valid question" is not clear?

If you want to conflate stuborness with open-mindedness, that's your choice. Even the ayatollahs think they're open minded.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:01:

alright, here is the website....

this guy is not saying that there is a god.......he is only saying that humans were created by a conscious mind......or the theory of intelligent design.

http://cosmicfingerprints.com/iidb.htm

LDW says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:11:

You are all missing the point.

Whatever Pat Robertson may have said, his words cannot be supported by the teachings of Jesus.

Whatever those Pakistanis said about Salman Rushdie can be entirely supported by the teachings in islamic literature (Koran and hadith). Actually, many highly literate Pakistanis were calling for the same thing. One was actually a UK resident SOB who had been previosuly knighted by the Queen. In calling for the death of Rushdie, all those noisy obnoxious Muslims were simply obeying the teachings of their prophet.

Both Robertson and those Pakistanis are wrong. The dfference is that those Pakistanis are following the teachings of their Islamic faith, whereas Robertson is not following the teachings of the one he professes to be his lord Jesus.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:19:

tert.....I forgot, no one is allowed to question your faith.....sorry.

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:19:

Aristotle was the first dude to try to prove the existence of god through logic. He reasoned that nothing can come from nothing, therefore there must have been somebody behind the curtain to jumpstart existence.

In the Metaphysics he calls this Prime Mover "God," whose only activity is pure thought. It must think of itself only, since it is the most excellent of all things, and "its thinking is a thinking about thinking."

Then came Anselm and Aquinas, who ripped off Aristotle by arguing basically that because we can imagine god, he must exist. The logic flow goes something like this:

God is that entity than which nothing can be greater.
The concept of God exists in human understanding.
God exists in one's mind but not in reality.
The concept of God's existence is understood in one's mind.
If God existed in reality it would be a greater thing than God's existence in the mind.
The final step to God's existence is that God in reality must exist.

Then came Descartes, who used questioning what God is not to try to get at what he is, what the egghead monks and theology geeks call Apophatic theology.

His reasoning, based on perception, goes like this:

Whatever I clearly and distinctly perceive to be contained in the idea of something is true of that thing.

I clearly and distinctly perceive that necessary existence is contained in the idea of God.

Therefore, God exists.

But then the ol Scottish skeptic Hume, who you could say is kind of the founder of modern thought, used similar logic to show that, like Sr T says, the whole point of God is that ya can't prove he exists. In fact ya can't prove that anything like a Prime Mover, or a priori, or like a first principle, can exist. And ya shouldn't try. The logic chain goes like this:

The only way to prove anything a priori is through an opposite contradiction. For example, I am a married bachelor.

The resulting contradiction makes something inconceivable. Obviously it is impossible to have a married bachelor.

It is impossible to comprehend anything not existing. Thus it is inconceivable to imagine anything not existing.

Nothing can be proven to exist a priori, including God.

But then Jay-Z, alias Sean Carter, alias Jigga Man, alias Jay-Hova, rode into town and self-annointed himself God MC, which kind of blew up everybodies spot.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:23:

Gringoloid, unlike you with my posts, at least I read a few sentences into the website.

Briefly: Bullcrap.

The statement (which I presume is the synthesis of their argument), "the laws of physics and chemistry do not explain the existence of information" is a conflation of terms. Information doesn't exist in the same way that my left foot exists, that's why no natural science can "prove" it. Physics and chemistry cannot demonstrate that 2 plus 2 is 4... THERE MUST BE A GOD!!

I like one of the premises: "All codes are created by a conscious mind" By codes this guy means language. I wonder... what conscious mind created English? John English?

The whole "intelligent design" argument has been debunked already so many times, not even its own secular advocates take it seriously anymore. H. Allen Orr's article, Devolution, printed in the New Yorker, provides a good synthesis of the discussion.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:25:

As far as killing someone because God told you to, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, used to slip out at night and park one in somebodies brain pan because his neighbor's dog told him to. D-O-G.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:29:

LDW, i've read most of the koran.................about 10 years ago..........i may have missed this.......but tell me where it says the murder of rushdie is called for, or is justified by their prophet or prophets. if you say jihad......i don't believe this would be covered under jihad.

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:30:

ayatollahs seem to be about as open minded as you are.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:39:

"Aristotle was the first dude to try to prove the existence of god through logic."

Gato, I think this is Aquinas take on Aristotle, not Aristotle himself.

Here's another contradictory (i.e., meaningless) question: Is the statement "I always lie" true?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:45:

Sr T, no actually Plato, Socrates and Aristotle all have various references to the 'One' (in Greek: To Hen), the ineffable God. And that stuff about the prime mover is from the Nichomachean Ethics, where he did try to logically prove the existence of this God.

But Aquinas and Maimonides certainly ran with it.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:58:

Gato,

I'm not a Aristotle expert at all, but I do have a copy of the Ethics (the Ostwald translation) and I fail to see where that argument is actually advanced. This is a topic that interests me very much, so I'd appreciate it if you can direct me to a book and chapter. I know that older translations assumed that what is now conventionally translated as "the good" (I don't know the original greek word) was God.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 11:59:

Stert....i not only read your posts but i defeated your argument. your problem is not reading............ but understanding. take this quote of yours:

I like one of the premises: "All codes are created by a conscious mind" By codes this guy means language. I wonder... what conscious mind created English? John English?

This is one of the easiest concepts in that whole website and in fact, your question is the stupidest question ever asked of me on this website.

German people in 500AD invaded england and that is where the english language developed.

you can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

tell me something tert.......if these people who i'm sure had conscious minds did not create the english language.....who did?

sorry babe, you ain't got the brains to debate with me......and I'd rather go to the gym and workout.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:07:

"sorry babe, you ain't got the brains to debate with me"

You should've told me that this was about your insecurities and I'd stop some time ago. I doubt that you "defeated" my argument, because I didn't really have one: Just a bunch of questions that went unanswered.

The argument from the website, gringoloid, is not whether those who created languages have conscious minds but whether they have A SINGLE conscious mind, i.e., that they were planned. I'm no linguist, but my guess is that natural languages--like DNA--are more the product of accumulated accidents selected by an unguided process.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:09:

Sr T,

My bad,

It's in Metaphysics, Lambda section (Chapter 12). Best translation is still probably ol' W.D. Ross's, from back in 1924.

The argument is Aristotle's own one about essences as being the key to substances. If that makes any damn sense.

Averroes' commentary is real good, and you don't have to read the flippin thing in Latin anymore.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:13:

Uh, that's beyond my scope, so I'll take your word for that. Thanks!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

LDW says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:39:

gringoloid:

Rushdie is considered an apostate (Murtadeen). He left islam. Verse 4:89 of the KKKoran commands muslims to "seize them and kill them wherever you find them". That applies especially to Rushdie because he published a book about it!!

Other apostates who have published books have had to do so, for fear of their lives, under a "nom de plume". Ibn Warraq is an example.

Also, in Volume 9:57 of the Bukhari hadith, the prophet said "if anyone changes his Islamic religion, kill him".

Also in the bukhari hadith (I can find the reference if you want it), the prophet said "if anyone insults allah or his prophet, kill him". Rushdie was considered to have insulted the prophet.

Also in the bukhari hadith (and I can find the reference if you want it), the prophet said "killing kafirs (i.e., non muslims) is a small matter to us".

The hadith are the traditions and narrations of the prophet. The KKKoran commands muslims to obey the prophet as they would obey allah. Since the KKKoran is exclusively the word of "allah" himself, the most reliable words of the prophet we have are from the hadith. Therefore Muslims must obey the hadith. Their god allah said so. To not do so would apostasy. For example, the command to pray 5 times a day comes from the hadith, and not the KKKoran. Failure to pray 5 times a day is considered by most islamic jurisprudence to be apostasy.

sloopskipper says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:44:

Frisian is the language most closely related to English apart from Scots, . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages#Old_Frisian

ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:50:

There is no such thing as a god ,as a Jesus ,Mohammed,or the rest of that shit,its just a continuing of story's started 3000 years before the so called BC,all were born on the 25th,all were visited by 3 wise men or stars ,all born to a virgin,all rise 3 days after death,just so many but the story is all the same .....bollocks

As for all the wars ,its just about power money and now oil,
The USA has in the past ,set up and bomb their own people to start it off,
Every dictator that has come to power the USA has put there,
Now we have bin lardan ,again he works for the USA ,the bush family are in with the larden family,
The day before the wtc 9.11 bin larden was in a hospital ,they knew where he was ,they know now where he is,they are using him and his group,their are no terrorist only the USA,
Now when we say the USA ,its only 5 family's ,its only the Jews, its the Jews that control and run it all,
As for the wtc,
Why would one man a year before buy it,
Why would he set up an insurances for it to be rebuilt if it was knocked now ,unheard off in its 40 years ,
The wtc was not making money,
It was costing too much,
And every one knew it had to get rid of the asbestos ,at a cost of one billion dollars,
The owner only put 15 million dollars down he now has a new building going up and got 7 billion to boot,
Why was the mayor of new York not in his bunker and control room in tower 7,
How come that fell,
How come all the papers for the oil company went with it saving them a 70 billion law suit,
Where did all the gold go ,
Why did they find 235 million of gold in a truck 3 blocks away ,but this is all they found.
Billions went missing.
They named 19 hijackers ,yet 9 of them are alive and well.
Who shut down the wtc power ,
Who ran the air port the planes came from ,
It was the brother of bush. Even the bomb dogs were took away,
Over 100 billion made for these people up to now,
Then we get the war ,
Now who is making billions ,
Bush and halliburton, dick cheney is running bush,bush is just a lap dog,
Some of the names that are behind all the shit going on is Rothschild, Warburg, Rockefeller and Schiff bin lardan bush,and the German banks.
Every thing you can think of is ran and owned by Jews ,the papers the editors the radio the TV ,the phones ,the Jews are tapping the whole of the USA.
And these family's paid and set up Hitler they told him what to do.
Why is Israel being let do just what it wants,
Why do the USA give it 3 billion a year,
Why are they still today setting up more camps on occupied land.
Who is killing most,the USA.
Who has killed most ...the USA...
And just follow the money to see who is doing it.
And if you think the USA and CIA don't do this ,just look at jfk killing ,
Jfk had 4 CIA on his car ,just at the same moment he was turning the CIA in the 1st car called them back ,unheard of,so when jfk got shot not one CIA was on his car ,just take a look,and they were called away not a minute before it went down,they say the shots came all from the book deposit, yet every one on the street ran up the grass to where it came from,they knew a shot came from the street , but the shot that took jfk head off came from inside the car its self,

Its all a big lie .

3 building come down in the same way ,all go to dust ,could not happen.
Millions of people in NYC ,webcams ,phone cams ,video ,but not one good photo of a plane ,
Not one part of all 4 planes were found ,just don't happen.
Cell calls from planes for 25 minutes ,....yes your cell will work on a plane but not at 35000 feet going over 500 miles a hour,some times you cant even get a call while driving,
The ground floor of the pentagon yet not one post knocked down ,not a mark on the grass,and out the 100s of cams they got in and around this building not one photo of a plane.just could not happen.
A plane smashes right into the ground and you get only a 15 feet creator yet the bits were over 4 miles,nothing bigger than a football,just don't happen.
You get a plane down they seal off the area ,and for weeks they investigate ,yet here nothing,they just started to clean up right away ,no photos ,nothing ,not for 411 days did they set up some one from the white house to investigate the whorehouse,and still we got nothing.just what are the people in the USA thinking about,
Why were all bin lardan family flown out the week and day before 9.11
Why did a lot of these people who had flights booked cancel,
Why did so much inside trading go on just on these planes that went down,
Why just on this day were they doing a drill on planes hitting the wtc,a drill on the same thing that was just happening.
How can bush say he was at the school and sew on TV the 1st plane hit ,when the 1st plane hitting was only on TV the next day,no one had photos of the 1st plane till the next morning ,yet bush says he saw it on TV,
No one in NYC sew or photos a plane ,not the TV not the coppers in the air nothing on the second plane,when it was all live ,they were all set up when the second plane hit ,but we get nothing,not one clear photo.
Pilots have tied on the simulator to do the same flight patten as these planes and none could do it,only one hit the wtc in 5 try's,yet they want you to belive these hijackers could.
The speed they were going was faster than planes could go.
All adds up to no planes hit the wtc,no plane hit the pentagon,no plane crashed that day.
I belive in coincidences,does happen ,but when it happens time and time again on this that goes out the window ,it just cant happen,talking of windows ,they were no windows on the thing that hit the wtc ,that you can see.
So no matter what you belive ,its a fact
The USA will kill its own to start things ,they have done it before and will do it again,
The USA and the Jew family's that run it are the true terrorists,and the sooner we all wake up to this the better for the whole world.
And until the terrorists state of Israel is put to an end it will just go on ,
And I end by saying I like obomer but I tell you no matter what the USA white USA is not ready to put a nigger in the white house ,and yes its not the N word that's bollocks ,the word is nigger to all white USA ,they know from past you put a black face in ,then new jobs go to other blacks ,the blacks will bring in more blacks ,its just a fact ,and at the moment black and white has not come in to it ,but it will , it has to because the USA is black and white the USA is racist,and racist on both sides....black and white.and then throw in the racist shit both black and white are giving the poor Mexicans,and you can see why the land of the free is the land of the fucked and damned,and the whole world is sufferings from this shit.the world has to turn on the USA and the big corporatists Mafia killers ,and bring it all down,may be just may be China will come save the day.but it is going to get a lot worst before it gets better,the USA want Iran ,that is the goal,they need it ,and that is coming mark my words......

www.unionjackedfilms.com

LDW says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:54:

ujay:

Did you forget to take your meds?

ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 12:58:

lol ,i just took them thanks

www.unionjackedfilms.com

Aaron21 says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:03:

Uhh, Ujay... What?

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:05:

ujay......hallellieua!!!!!!!!!!!! I never knew you had it in you!!!!!!!!!!!! Preach, preacher, Preach!!!

too bad this is going to get deleted................now please, i have to go to the gym and its raining like hell outside...........

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:06:

I saved the thread, before the Jews have it deleted.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:07:

"The Jew's Family?"

Some also believe that Jew's drink the blood of Christian children, can turn themselves into cockroaches, and like to enter into 'contact' with unclean animals.

But this is ridiculous, absurd and even, dare I say it...paranoid?

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:10:

why is the truth paranoid?

gringoloid says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:11:

roci.....please save me a copy............this is one of the best threads pbh has ever had.

ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:13:

follow the facts ,follow the money ,thats all im saying.

www.unionjackedfilms.com

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:14:

He has made some good points - too bad there were not done more eloquently and without so much hyperbole. Integrity and credibility went right out the window. Idon't agree with everything, but I do believe Israel has the US in its back pocket.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:14:

Of course.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:23:

So here is some thing you can all go check for you self its on the net ,
Money halliburton,one silly thing ,a plastic plate the troops need to eat off,

One plate halliburton is billing 22 dollars ,yes 22 dollars for one plastic plate ,but the troops take another plate to put on top of their food ,to keep the dust off so that's 2 plates a meal ,44 dollars a meal 3 times a day 132 dollars per man per day x that by 160.000 and this is just for a bloody plate,

You don't have to be a wiz to carry on from here and see just how much money these gangsters are raking in.
And the world is paying the price for a few.....

www.unionjackedfilms.com

rocinante says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:30:

ujay since you have a captive audience can you expand or clarify a bit:

""No one in NYC sew or photos a plane ,not the TV not the coppers in the air nothing on the second plane,when it was all live ,they were all set up when the second plane hit ,but we get nothing,not one clear photo."

I'm not sure I get the whole jist of that. Again you make some good points but you may want to tone it down a bit, cowboy!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:31:

Is Dick Cheney a Jew?

sloopskipper says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:33:

I just saved it, a second time, as a word doc file, which includes all the avatars, fotos, and links. But it is strange that the version I saved yesterday reported 45 pages, 2128KB, and today 20 some pages and 660KB, atlthough it looks complete. I will do again if the thread continues to run.

If anybody wants it, shoot a private e-mail with an address,

ujay says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:35:

There is nothing wrong saying Jew or Jews ,it is what there are ,just the same as you saying I'm English or American ,and they say their so called god was king of the Jews ,even the romans put the sign on his cross king of the jews.so the word means nothing more than it is Jew.

roc,
show me one photo any where of a plane,just one photo of a passenger plane,that they were tracking for over an hour ,that they knew was heading for nyc ,that hit the wtc ,but nothing,not one photo.go out side see a plane coming to wards you take a photo ,you see the whole plane ,you see the logo ,here you see jack shit ,nothing.

www.unionjackedfilms.com

azunoman says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:45:

"Idon't agree with everything, but I do believe Israel has the US in its back pocket."

Uh...I think it is the other way around. We in the US needed a stick in the middle east, they sure as hell didn't want us there personally, hence the US lets Israel off like an errant school child.

Well guess what Israel...we are now in the region with our own stick. That is why Bush thought he could get them to the table, he lame duck, but don't think that someone else isn't going to try and broker a deal to settle things over there and just continue to let Israel ask for whatever the fing it wants. woo hooo!....

Oh, and for the guy that wants to knock off Bush, hey goofy, ever heard of the Patriot Act....jajajajajaja...they love finding people like you if nothing else putting you on the no fly list, and you be wondering why.

Ready, Fire, Aim

gatogris says on Feb 21, 2008, 13:51:

Yes, here we have another myth popular with the 9/11 conspiracy theorists - the confused and muddled belief in the involvement of the Israeli government and, by extension, the ever useful international Jewish conspiracy. This one has been around a long time, for those of you who have just arrived.

According to the true-believers holed up in some attic surrounded by knock -off Nazi paraphanalia, the Mossad warned these Jews about the attacks, and they were able to escape harm. Such rumors again arose after the bombings in the London subway last year. It seems that whatever happens in the world, there are people who will lay the blame at the feet of the Jews. Just because they happen to be conniving by nature and guilty of deicide. So, the thinking goes, if the Jews were warned, they must have caused it.

In the Muslim world, Zionists conspiracies are peddled from millions of mosques and you can buy the "Protocols of the Elder Zion" on street corners. But up until 9/11, in the West this stuff was mostly the province of pathetic neo-Nazi groups, most of whom were repressed homosexuals secretly hoping to get back to the jailhouse showers. But now, a belief in the exaggerated power of pro-Israel Jews in the United States seems to be more common.

Even some smart people have started talking about these theories, but then, delusional thinking has never been confined to the realm of the uneducated. Look at how vigorously the Inquisition pursued witches.

Remember, theories like these preform a useful pyschological function: they allow people to deny their own feelings of vulnerability and impotence. And they prevent people from having to face up to uncomfortable and complicated truths.

Hell, we all need a few illusions in our lives I guess. But maybe not ones that monger hate.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 21, 2008, 14:03:

Everyone has their own hatemongering delusions.

The Islamic fundamentalists think they are fighting a Holy War. The First World thinks it is fighting "terror". At least the former, unlike the latter, generally keep their fighting within their own territory.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)