is vietnam repeating itself ?

dwmte7 says on Jul 26, 2009, 17:05:

don't know where you were during nam.....or what ever war for that matter...goeff.....but like the saying goes, "war is hell" kids from 16 (lied about their age) on doing killing for a living, studying to kill, training to kill, mastering the art, living and eating with killers, day in and day out, never being able to wash the blood off...it's just in too deep. even when deemed necessary killing your buddies and officers (fragging) even re-enlisting to kill. one buddy of mine in nam got out with a string of left ears...forty-seven of them...little ones, big ones, all sizes, from infants to old flabby adults. then while showing them to me, said, "shit douglas...there were lots more, i just didn't have time to get em." he re-upped for three tours in an assault fire team.

that poor bastard of a young man is lost beyond redemption and we made him that way...war made him a killer. he makes serial killers look like grade school superintendents. and nam's not special..look at the 82nd front assault teams with tattos on one arm that say, "killing's my business" and on the other arm, "business is good" and i can tell you from experience, it aint no fuckin joke. these brothers can kill in a twinkle of an eye. mistakes are made, some mistakes are made intentionally. you see three rags run into a house after blowing up your hum vee and killing 3 or more of your mates and you get down on that funky shack and kill everything inside that's stealin breath. age? not in the least important. just kill. it's get even time. and you don't care if the broad is nursing a baby, their heads blow off just as easy as the prick with the ak-47 or the grenade launcher....and every last one of them looks better bloody and dead. it's war brothers, it's dirty and it's hell. and it's our brothers and sisters that are busy with it.

they come home...to what? clean houses, clean rooms, maybe with no arms or legs, maybe with everything. but nothing is the same anymore. somebody fuck with you.....welllllll...aint that interesting. you know all about fuckin with somebody, you got that down pat. so they better get the fuck outta your face or they're just like one more slope head or just another rag... they're dead.

this story's not new. it's as old as time. king david, in his power rage, killed his brothers and all their sons. you figure.

now this ain't a biblical story...this is real. we know how to train to kill, how to support our killers, how to drive them on, but we don't know what to do with them when the killing's over. what do we do with these patriotic mad men and women. can't just put them out to pasture. nobody back home has a real clue what they been doing. and all the rambo they/we watch on tv don't come even close. cause the bloods not real. ya gotta have that blood on your hands, all over your clothes and in your mouth, flesh and body parts in your face....then you know. then you've tasted it. you know what killin's all about. and there's no pre school for that education. it's blood guts and trenches all rolled into one.;....24/7, day in and day out and no days off. the only way--ultimately--you can keep going is to get high or shoot smack and pretend that it's all just another day on easy street. half your buddies, nay, near all of em are junkiies. now tell me friends. what kinda help we got for these brothers and sisters? a courts martial. killing was fine yesterday..in fact it was the law. now? back home, it's murder and they'll kill you for it.

don't think lightly about this, cause it aint light thinking. there's something about human blood when it's all over the place. yours or someone else's somehow they just seem the same.
d

patriarch

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nicholasp313 says on Jul 26, 2009, 19:12:

I know lots of iraq / afghanistan veterans that witnessed and took part in the same things. Many of them have been able to regain their humanity by focusing their negative energy on volunteer work; helping people. Others ended it via violence or drugs. Many vets feel hopeless when they have to readjust, but I can not say enough about how much volunteer work can help heal your soul.

Encourage virtue in whatever heart it may have been driven into secrecy and sorrow by the shame and terror of the world.

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nicholasp313 says on Jul 26, 2009, 19:17:

Many of these men and women have been on multiple deployments and were then railroaded out of the DoD into a failing economy. It took those veterans like myself that were part of the initial invasions years of activism and lobbying just to get proper transitional healthcare and updated educational benefits. At least these new guys will have a safety net when they get out. In 2004, once you were discharged you got nothing until your educational benefits kicked in 8 months later. And when they did kick in, they were barely enough to cover rent, let alone college. Thank god the gi bill, and va med plan has been updated. My generation of vets got a raw deal, but we have the viet / gulf war vets to thank that we got a deal at all. Every generation of vets must fight two wars. One overseas, and one when they get back home just to get the benefits they were promised.

Encourage virtue in whatever heart it may have been driven into secrecy and sorrow by the shame and terror of the world.

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jonny305 says on Jul 26, 2009, 20:29:

wow sad one imagined all rosy once vets arrive home from war
thanks vets

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TravelFamily says on Jul 26, 2009, 22:35:

Thank you for your service and all that you sacrificed! The GI Bill helped put me through grad school and I'm thankfull for it, but happy that it's been updated...there's no way that what I got would cover much these days! The medical care is what's so important now, and recognizing that people need help readjusting and living a 'normal' life, and not sweeping those "problems" under the carpet. When you go to war at 18, you generally don't think that you'll come home a different person either mentally, physically, or both - because at 18 your invincible.

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page. ~St. Augustine~

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dwmte7 says on Jul 27, 2009, 03:19:

hearing about the benifits the 'heros' receive today...modest and insufficient as they are...they're miles beyond what we got when i got out in the early 60's........ but it still doesn't address the mind fuck the vets must deal with the rest of their lives.

the 'masters of war' in the ivory tower (pentagon) after centuries of doing this, still don't get it....pity.

yes, all you vets out there, you're the best of american blood....you deserve a life long gratitude for your service and sacrifice. not a kick in the ass, a slap on the back, and the door shut behind you.
d

patriarch

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cstew47 says on Jul 27, 2009, 10:55:

Yeah, I am one of those Vietnam vets that was insulted and spat upon instead of appreciated. It was a different time then. I now have two sons that are career military and fortunately the world has changed in reference to opinions regarding vets. Contrary to what many think of the US, it is a country that has saved millions through it unselfishness and sacrifice.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 27, 2009, 11:22:

i'll pray for your sons' safety during their careers.
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patriarch

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Sonny says on Jul 27, 2009, 11:56:

It is interesting at best to read all the facts of life when it comes to Nam. The know it all´s, to the I wanna bee´s. I found it interesting to see all the people welcome the people back from the Gulf. Flowers, news reporters with nothing but good to say yet I recall all the shit I saw when I returned to the states. Spit in the face, baby killers. To this day I still do not see the difference in war. VietNam or the Gulf.You´re trained to kill, kill, kill, kill and to survive so you can drink a beer, take a bath (joke) then go back and kill again. I can recall being told not to cross the borders in fire fight. After doing it anyway I can also recall our ammo supplies being cut in half to prevent us from doing it again.
The first wound I received was to have a finger removed from my left leg. Not mine my friends. I was shot down and landed on a land mine. You blow someone´s brains out at close quarters, taste their blood, YES PEOPLE TASTE IT, look at their eyes and feel nothing? Soon you don´t feel shit. A job, well trained, well tested and the time comes that you feel nothing. Today it hurts me more to see a child or an animal hurt then an adult. Something inside of me says it is ok if an adult is dead. It was my job and I remember how I was trained. To kill and to feel nothing after that. You NEVER forget that training. One may put it deep in their minds but at any given moment in time it all comes back and usually at a time you have no control over it. First thought? Kill, then think.
I was lucky. Of my 27 man team I was one of three that returned. All that I have read here has been pretty good. I wish we could all remember that without the lives of many this site and freedom of speech would not be possible. Thank GOD for the vets. Thank you for the men and women that put their lifves on the line each day so that I can travel where ever I wish when ever I wish. I may live in Medellin but I am an American and proud to be. I wonder how many people here know what the colors of our flag mean???

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 27, 2009, 13:16:

i don't feel proud, warlord, i feel heavy. i was surprised that i could write above because i never talk about that. i guess i felt my pride from my mother and father. they smiled and cried when i came home. no body else did. all the things we heard, yelled at, spit at, cursed, given the finger..'baby killer'.........fuck all that. i can't stand goin there. you said it all sonny. fuckin ear collecting.

patriarch

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aposantos says on Jul 27, 2009, 16:39:

fairly accurate site

www.uswings.com/vietnamfacts.asp

Most volunteered ( were going to be drafted anyway)

Welcoming speech at Ft Wolters, Mineral Wells Texas April 1966. (known also as miserable wells) ( U.S. Army Primary Helicopter
Training Center) by Commanding General. "Gentlemen wecome to Ft Wolters, many of you will serve in Vietnam, and some of you will not return". (oh no, mommy mommy where are you!!)

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nicholasp313 says on Jul 27, 2009, 16:44:

have any of you found that volunteer work is a constructive form of readjustment? I myself have found this to be true, and i know a lot of vets that were able to turn their anger into something constructive and helpful for those in need. i also know vets that did not do this, are on edge, and live deep in the ghettos, with their rifles nearby at all times. i can't say enough about how humanitarian work helps heal the soul. In fact, an outsider may view my demeanor now as someone who is a lot softer than the person i was before my time overseas. I think I just understand what true strength is now.

Encourage virtue in whatever heart it may have been driven into secrecy and sorrow by the shame and terror of the world.

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 08:42:

It amazes me as to all the shit you get form some people here. I took my flight training at Ft Rucker Alabama. THE major flight school in the USA during the 60´s. Most were W O´s very few officers.
Anger?
Hell yes. I did what I was ordered to do and never thought about going to canada to hide like the cowards they were did.
Readjustment? Adjust to what? Angry draft dodgers and hippies on drugs while we had to kill to survive. Then come home to be greeted but the same? Try to explain to those fools what really happened so we can feel better. The adjustment was slow and hard. Getting used to getting in an arguement and not reaching for my 45 or shorty? I had no desire to tell anyone what happened and I can speak for many. Most had no desire to do it either. We wanted to forget and heal our own wounds. Volunteer our experience? PASS
Adjustment? How does one adjust to being a trained Killer? OK now, it is all over go back to the way you were. It is ok now. Congress fucked us in spades. Our own turned on us and now we are to forget it ever happened!
I think if you did not live this action it would best not to write anything you have no knowledge of.

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 08:53:

ronrumron

Mineral Wells Texas (MW)! Those that didn't return to MW are singing with Elvis or living in Colombia!

Interesting comment. Douglas, I for one respect and appreciate your comments as always.

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 28, 2009, 09:17:

as i said above....i got spared the blood letting...just didn't get spared the clean up......ain't too much demand for investigative personal on 'point'...yeah it's what's up front that counts....but from what i heard and what i saw, the point was best not spoken about...much less investigated.

so if the tracks left behind spoke anything of the massacre...i was lucky.....or was i? i'm not sure anymore...and since i try not going back to all that....all that 'other'. i don't think i'll ever be any 'surer'.
pax.
d

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Jul 28, 2009, 11:31:

back when i was in.....they were begging guys with high military iq scores to re up for rotary wing training..(heli pilot) the problem was, when they offered me warrant o and this training, they were loosing about a dozen pilots a week in laos, cambodia and nam. nasty odds. i passed on the offer and believe me, i wanted that million dollar free education. but i didn't want tobe flyin some um armored huey around skies full of ak ak. so the entire career was as an enlisted. no special priviledges other than kissin boot.

patriarch

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 13:03:

ronrumron,

The actual count of Huey pilots killed in action in Viet Nam was 2197 and does not include their crews.Nor does in include those that died after returning home from wounds received in combat. 24 of these deaths were friends I trained with and were shot down and three of us are here today to tell others how brave they were. I had a steel plate put on my seat and instructed my crew chief to either stand on the skid or set on his steel pot. There were no exceptions to my order. My gun ship was far from bullet proof. I got my wings at an old age of 19. Flew my first combat mission at 20. I was one of the old men. We had no cobras or H 500´s to protect us. Just our buddies. I thank GOD for each and every man woman that served there. They truly knew what hell was all about.

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 15:29:

xxxwarlord

Had you been there you would not have asked that question

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 15:52:

then you should know

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 16:09:

ronrumron
You always have a way with words. The crew chief (door gunner) are one and the same. You are actually a smaller target standing on the skid then setting inside. The object was to shoot down the Huey not kill the door gunner. More often then not the crash killed the men. The body of the Huey was much easier to hit then a single person standing on the skid. Killing the crew chief, (door gunner), simply killed the man but taking down the huey and it´s pilot were the main target. If you think about it you would understand.

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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Sonny says on Jul 28, 2009, 16:54:

There is a strap attached to the ship that is attached to the gunner. Had he been killed he would still be attached .Because we had no cobras for support at that time being able to shoot under us was important. The only way to shoot under the Huey was to stand on the skid. The Huey was the main target always. He was not always on the skid. I had about 1875 hours as the PIC- Let me add also that I never lost a crew chief. I was shot down three times during my tour.I think I have answered your question. Let´s let this subject go .
The question was , Is Viet Nam repeating itself? My answer is , If congress does to these boys and ladies what they did to us, yes, it is and will be. If you are going to fight a war then kick enough ass until there is no one to fight. Use everything in your power to win and win the fricking war.

Just taking life easy. I worked hard for it and deserve it and now doing it.

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 28, 2009, 21:16:

dwmte7 says on Jul 29, 2009, 03:03:

i understand wanting to change stations, sonny...or just plain turn the radio off. but i do want to thank you for your sharing and your service and those in your crew. it's heros like ya'll that keep the show on the road. thanks again.
d

patriarch

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