Gay/Lesbian Marriage (Legal) in the USA

CatGirl says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:24:

Please share....I have a very close friend that is politcally active in this area and has been lobbying for years. I will share some of my experiences, but first I'd like to hear PBHers feelings on this ;))

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:57:

I am all for gay marriage. More stable homes for kids from fucked up backgrounds, happier people, happier couples, nicer neighborhoods... I cannot see anything negative in this. Nothing.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:58:

I see negatives... but 'happier' is key

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Plato says on Jun 18, 2008, 15:44:

The majority of Californians - 7 out of 10 - feel that marriage is between a man and woman. The activist supreme court has lost its mofo mind(s). Don't mind "civil unions," but to call it marriage? COME ONNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 18, 2008, 16:23:

MaFe says on Jun 18, 2008, 17:07:

I am for it...why can't same sex people love each other and marry each other? WOW...we live in the year 2008 people..

Look at the first same sex marriage performed in california; they were with each other for over 50 years! FIFTY!!?? How many heterosexual couples last that long??

I see so many young couples get married, end up in divorce..why not let people love each other in their way....
Do you know how many people are married and cheat, abuse their spouse, have threesomes...hell that's not marriage...
Let the gays love, life, and get the same benefits that heterosexual couples get..

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Plato says on Jun 18, 2008, 17:09:

MaFe,

In the beginning it was ADAM and EVE, not ADAM and STEVE.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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MaFe says on Jun 18, 2008, 17:11:

Plato...how do you know that? Were you around? Please...in the beginning people married siblings...should we still do that? Bible is man written...

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Plato says on Jun 18, 2008, 17:19:

Mafe

How do I know that it was Adam and Eve? Are you serious? O.k. I’ll answer: 6.6 billion people on the earth, that’s how. You can’t have a growing human population going up the Hershey highway, munching carpets, or screwing your partner with dildos. We’re here because it happened "a la natural." Adam and EVE - not Steve. How's that for a biblical explanation?

By the way, what’s wrong with civil unions in which gay couples can gain all the rights of their partner’s benefits and assets? Why does it have to be “marriage?" huh?

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 17:43:

what came first the chiken or the egg???

Evolution would suggest that we evolved from a asexual creature eventually specializing into two sexes.

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MaFe says on Jun 18, 2008, 17:49:

Plato...why can't gays have marriages? Who are we to judge? Just look at divorce rates...
if they want to marry let them marry...hmmm gays can have babies! Hello...I know gay friends that have a baby with a friend from the opposite sex...or use other means...so HELLO!! It is possible.....and they make good parents...probably better parents...

I am pretty sure that Adam screwed Steve when he had the chance....

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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webmanco says on Jun 18, 2008, 18:15:

que desorden

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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Plato says on Jun 18, 2008, 18:30:

Ma Fe.

First off, let's leave Adam and Steve alone.

Second, I don’t have a problem with homosexuals having their own civil unions. If they love and care for each other, great! They can benefit from each other’s assets and so forth. So be it. However, I have a problem with homosexuals calling their civil unions “marriage?" By definition, marriage is between man and woman. Period. You can’t spin your way out of this Ma fe.

Now, about judging. Of course we can judge. Did those modefoke supreme court judges judge? Don’t parents judge? Doesn’t the President of the United States judge? Doesn’t Congress Judge? Don’t terrorist modefokes judge? Hmm? You get my point?

Let me go further: you would want your physician to have good judgment, wouldn’t you? Shouldn’t one judge before going out on a date with a modefoke?

Here’s the point, Ma Fe: we shouldn’t judge where people go after death. In other words, we can’t say to people that they’re going to hell because they’re doing something wrong. I can’t judge homosexuals where they go after they pass on from the earth. But I can judge that homosexuality is not natural. Like the Bible that you claim was “man-made", so was homosexuality. It’s not natural. The parts just don’t fit, Ma Fe.

One last thing: The main authority of our American democracy comes from our U.S. Constitution. The congress makes laws and the president signs them. Supreme Court justices interpret the law. Those modefokes in California overstepped their boundaries by allowing homosexuals to marry. If it were to become true law, then why didn’t the Congress legislate it? Or, why didn’t he California state legislature ratify the law? Hmm? Something's gone awry here.


Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Jun 18, 2008, 18:32:

Yes, I'm back.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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podborski says on Jun 18, 2008, 19:24:

Adults should be able to do whatever they please to do as long as they don't physically harm anyone.

Who are we to say who can marry and who can't?

This is one of those issues that shows how the conservative right can be very like other religious fanatics that they want to blow up

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CatGirl says on Jun 18, 2008, 20:20:

Hi guys ' Wow all ends of the spectrum here (as usual). Well, I will share with you that I had a very close female friend that had a 20 year relationship with another woman. My friend died at a very young age and I it was very sad to see that she was unable to leave anything behind for her lover and her lover's daughter. So, long story short (it takes a twist) my friend made an agreement with her brother on her death bed (who is a gay man and a prominent attorney) to marry her lesbian lover and promise to take care of her and her daughter. So Man and Woman Married at City Hall..there you go! and after the ceremony he said "So much for the sanctity of marriage, if you insist on a man and woman, so be it!!" Well, years went by and the widow of my friend wrote a touching letter about her story to any and all political parties that would listen. Eventually they did and they invitied her to a hearing and she became very active in this issue.

One thing I hope we can agree on - gay and lesbian relationships exist and they are not going away, period.

OK - so a few things to think about.
1) The children. What do you think it does to the children of gay and/or lesbian couples when they are treated different or as second class citizens? It is hard - not as hard now a days, but it was back then. I watched, as it created unneccessary rifts in the family all because of society and laws etc.. do the children have to suffer? I think not. It is very possible that some of that will not be a negative dynamic in their life. FYI - the friends I mention both had heterosexual children who are happy and probably better adjusted than most, but had a hard time growing up

2) Be careful for what you ask for, you may not want it anymore ;) Just wait and see when the time comes and gay lesbian marriage is"no big deal" - Divorce will be a new thing for them to contend with......the dynamic will change eventually.

Ok - kitty has written enough for now.. ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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webmanco says on Jun 18, 2008, 20:52:

Eso de todos contra todos no pienso que sea saludable, pero me baso en vivir y dejar vivir, pienso de forma personal que no es buen ejemplo para niños.

Here is a recent case at the National University in Bogotá.

HOMOFOBIA EN LA UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL

¿Hasta dónde vamos a llegar?

Rubén Ardila, Ph. D.

Articulo completo
http://www.eltiempo.com/opinion/columnistas/otroscolumnistas/ARTICULO-...

Y ahora resulta que a un Decano, por tener una orientación sexual minoritaria, se le ataca, arremete, discrimina y se le coloca en la hoguera. Yo no logro entender esta Inquisición, que es incomprensible en cualquier lugar del planeta en el siglo XXI, pero que en una Universidad no tiene sentido ni lógica ni coherencia. Y que ocurra en la Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Facultad de Ciencias Humanas es simplemente kaffkiano, está más allá de mi capacidad de comprender y de analizar el mundo.

Articulo completo
http://www.eltiempo.com/opinion/columnistas/otroscolumnistas/ARTICULO-...

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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CatGirl says on Jun 18, 2008, 22:05:

Gracias Web - of the words I could translate I enjoyed ;)). My Spanish is still too nuevo so I am at a disadvantage do not understand all and feel I am missing out ;). I have difficulty to interpreting the first portion that mentions children and I am not 100% sure if my translation is correct. If able to clarify only this

Eso de todos contra todos no pienso que sea saludable, pero me baso en vivir y dejar vivir, pienso de forma personal que no es buen ejemplo para niños.

Much appreciated ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 00:11:

I agree, unequivocally, with Plato.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 00:23:

Civil union? Fine; a good thing in fact. Everyone deserves the chance to be secure and happy.

Marriage? No. Stop trying to dismantle millennia of Judaeo-Christian civilisation just because it doesn't flatter your personal vanity and 'lifestyle choice'. Conventional morality is the invisible web of goodness which protects us all.

Gay adoption of children? You're using KIDS as part of an experiment in social engineering? I can't think of anything more selfish and nihilistic...

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 19, 2008, 03:24:

Yes, and having children to give them away, to beat them up and to abuse them is not selfish... I think I like gay adoptions a little bit better, at least they are proving the child a loving home.
In my borough Gay couples are strongly encouraged to adopt children, there are billboards on the issue everywhere. I'd rather see kids going to school, being properly cared for by same sex couples than by some teenager in a council estate.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 19, 2008, 04:15:

kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 19, 2008, 04:21:

kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 04:27:

Straight people beat and abuse kids ipso facto; but homosexuals are incapable of such things? PC dialectics, anyone?

I'm not in the least surprised the smug patrician lefties who run most of London's boroughs are promoting the totalitarian anti-family agenda. It'll give them something else to brag about at their swanky dinner parties.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 04:32:

But maybe you have a point. What environment could be more wholesome for a child than this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1027415/Little-Britains-M...

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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billyb says on Jun 19, 2008, 06:02:

"Gay adoption of children? You're using KIDS as part of an experiment in social engineering? I can't think of anything more selfish and nihilistic"

While adoption by a hetero couple might be more ideal, adoption by a gay couple sure beats the alternative, which is growing up alone and unloved in an institution, not much different than a prison, until they are 18. Yes the alternative is a great prescription for a well adjusted child, not.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 07:15:

Is incarceration the sole alternative to adoption by a gay couple where you're writing from?

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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dwmte7 says on Jun 19, 2008, 07:26:

the way i see it, who ever is willing to get married is allowed to kiss the bride...who ever that is.

patriarch

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 07:40:

Because you could be forgiven for thinking that's the case in Britain.

The Church (both Protestant and Catholic) UK adoption agencies had a long and laudable tradition of finding homes for some of the most emotionally disturbed and severely disabled of children. Until our right-on socialist government issued a decree that these charities must hand over their wards to deserving homosexuals. Being Christian in provenance, the charities inevitably balked at this and were forced to close. So yes, it is going to be a state institution or living with partisans of the 'Pride' movement for some poor little devil who'll never know a mother's love.

But that's the liberal worldview for you: The wounded feelings of well-heeled hedonists trump the needs of vulnerable children every time...

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 19, 2008, 07:54:

Kalder I never said heteros = child beating violent parents. But more often than not, abandoned kids in foster homes, orphanages, religious institutions etc etc end up being beaten up, mistreated and molested. Kids need love, shelter, security and discipline, if a same sex family is in a position to offer that sort of environment to a child, then Im all for it.
Please stop putting words I have not said in my mouth.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:04:

I know you didn't say that. But that interpretation could have been teased out of your words, the way they were set down. I responded the way I did to attack your argument. If you knew the strength of my feelings on this issue, I'm sure you'd be generous enough to concede my comment a legitimate enough rhetorical device.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:12:

On children being raised by same-sex couples:

1. First off, I’m happily married and have three children. Their ages are 12, 16, and 20 years old.

2. Initially I disagreed vehemently with same-sex couples raising children for various reasons, some which are mentioned above.

3. It is important that children be raised in a loving and nurturing environment.

4. Heterosexual couples don’t always provide loving environments for their children. It is certainly possible, and often the case, that these families can be dysfunctional depending on their socioeconomic status, upbringing, emotional heath, etc.

5. Same-sex couples are capable of offering a loving and nurturing environment for children.

6. Since most same-sex couples have higher incomes per capita, they are most likely able to provide better support for children in all aspects of their upbringing.


Problems:

1. Children who have two mommies or daddies will undoubtedly have some psychological damage. Kids in school yards will ostracize them. I know this for a fact since it happened to one of my 12-year old’s friend who has two mothers.

2. Outside of their homes, children of same-sex couples have difficulty understanding why they “don’t fit in" like children from heterosexual couples.

3. I feel this has the effect of creating another class of “minority" people – the children of same-sex couples.

4. Who is to blame for this? Certainly not the children. How about society? Certainly not society. You may ask “why?" Because this is what happens when you have an alternative lifestyle and children of same-sex couples get caught in the cross-fire of judgment that ought to be directed at their parents.

5. I’m not completely convinced that children raised by same-sex couples will have healthy heterosexual relationships as adults. I feel these children will grow up with a higher propensity to choose same-sex partners by choice than children from heterosexual couples.

Finally, I’m ambivalent on this issue. As a father, I know that children need loving parents. I just don’t think same-sex couples can protect them from the inevitable pressures that they go through in school and in relationships. Teaching children to disregard social norms and mores is a mistake since the vast majority of the world lives or thinks that the proper lifestyle to live in one that is a natural union between a man and woman.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:30:

ok Kalder "whatever you say is right"...that better? :P

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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billyb says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:30:

"Is incarceration the sole alternative to adoption by a gay couple where you're writing from?"

Barring adoption by a hetero couple, or maybe growing up on the streets, what alternative besides institutionalization is there for them? And have you seen those orphanages in the former Soviet block where a great quantity of children for adoption come from, not to mention third world ones? Prison in the US would be an upgrade.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Portena says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:31:

ja,ja, Doc. Good point!

Anyway, I basically agree with Pod.

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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romy says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:48:

define family...

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 08:55:

Back to the original topic on same-sex marriage.

I asked one my colleagues at work, who is gay young man in his mid-twenties, what he thought about the ruling in California. He told me that he supports it because gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples. As I suspected, nothing new there, but I respect his opinion. In fact, I like him very much as I do my straight friends.

One time I was training him in the field doing business in companies in various parts of the United States. We both had dinner together every night and sometimes had some drinks at the pubs. Afterwards, I normally go to my hotel room to relax, read, study, etc; he normally went out to gay bars and stayed out all night - up to 3 or 4 a.m. in the morning.

The following morning he is always up and ready to accompany me on business, so he doesn’t let his nocturnal lifestyle interfere with work. By the way, he knows I’m a staunch Catholic who is not open to homosexuality – especially being a Latin man with a tinge of Colombian “macho"ness and the ability to open up a few cans of whoop-ass if need be. Nevertheless, I found myself worrying about this kid when he would go on his escapades at gay bars. We worked in cities that weren’t open to homosexuals and I feared he would be gay-bashed. Can you imagine? I worried about his kid’s safety and told him, “Be safe. I don’t want you getting hurt by gay bashers." He appreciated it.

So, I disagree with the whole gay –lifestyle deal and gay marriage but I don’t let my reservations get in the way of caring for people on an individual level.

Back to the point on gay marriage:

My colleague did mention one very interesting thing about gay marriage. The fact they can now marry puts pressure on their relationships – just like heterosexual couples. In other words, before the ruling, the gay lifestyle was somewhat carefree because there was no legal paper to bind their relationships. Although they can get married now, many homosexuals prefer to stay uncommitted, or be committed superficially, but not to the degree of being married.


Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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romy says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:02:

"gay lifestyle"???
I guess I'm living it right now clubbing wednesday-sunday, though I only dance with girls...

Actually last week I was even "gayer"

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:12:

did you clubbing on tuesday? or did you wear loafers and a cashmere sweater?
I do a lot of gay things too. I mostly club at gay venues and down bellinis like there is no tomorrow.

BillyB you're spot on. I saw a documentary on abandoned children in Bulgaria the other night. I hated the world for days after that. Has anyone read on HIV positive children in Russia? Its heartbreaking. I think we fail to recognize the horrors many innocent children have to go through before they've even started living. Women-Men couples want to have their own children for the most part, and adopting can be a long process...there are waay too many kids compared to the number of straight families willing to adopt them. Same sex couples are an interesting alternative.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:14:

last week tuesday, I did... not this week... I stayed up discussing Kibbutz ;)
Actually the place I went to yesterday isn't a gay bar per say, but it was certainly acceptable. I have to admit that even being fairly liberal, I did feel unconfortable when guys would get too close, even if it was just paranoia.

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:14:

"gay lifestyle"???


The difference being was that my colleague was living it up with other men. "Gay lifestyle" aka same-sex lifestyle.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:21:

but plato that is like saying straight lifestyle...there are plenty of straight lifestyles. Unless of course you're actually referring to 'gay sex' which is pretty much the only undebatable thing all gay couples have in common.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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dwmte7 says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:22:

well, i grew up in solid, christian mainstream america and was never counciled yea/nea about the homosexual issue. however, maybe it was because, on the surface, or on the surface that i saw, it was non existant.

later, after the military and 10 years in colleges and universities, ending up a fellow at ucla, i certainly passed by and knew very well...to the extent of close friendship, those of the alternate lifestyle.

for myself, i absolutely demand, as an american who enjoys certain inalienable rights, those same rights for every other american, no matter what their calling, color, religion or sexual persuasion. me, i'm kinda dyed in the wool normal. but i also believe every chicken is entitled to his/her own roost.

now about marriage...en re same sex couples' unions, i think the use of the word, 'marriage' is a misnomer. why, because since the beginning of time, possibly without ever being literally defined, marriage is accepted as a union of man and woman wherein progeny are possibly. by definition alone this precludes those of the same sex. however, i fully believe they are entitled to every liberty that any and all enjoy. we needs simply arrive at a new 'word' to define this union, as using "marriage" will never satisfy all.

too, along with plato and kalder, i agree with them on each and every point made above. as i said, i'm--although wide open--with the old guard when it comes to raising children...been doing it for 45 yrs now. buried two, also.

now points made about children in orphanages or wards of the state pose an interesting and most important issue which needs, nay, demands resolve, and i'd like to hear more dialogue regarding this problematic issue.

patriarch

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:24:

CK,

Point well-taken. The term "gay" here in the US has come to mean strictly same-sex. I know that's not what it originally meant and the Brits, I understand, still use "gay" to mean "happy". It's a semantics issue between our two countries.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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romy says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:30:

I'm pretty sure most people have equated gay to homosexuality in this discussion...

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 19, 2008, 09:36:

I believe I was talking about same sex couples. I just don't believe that sexual tendencies determine one's lifestyle.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:19:

I've travelled enough in Russia and Eastern Europe, pre- and post-Soviet era (and, more importantly, read widely enough) to know that Communism turned a huge swathe of Europe into a physical and moral slum. The leftist assault on the family and its supporting social structures did indeed condemn thousands of innocents to lives of institutional misery. But they deserve to be taken in by families, not farmed out to work as apprentice goatherds, chimney sweeps or fashion accessories for homosexuals.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:26:

Oh...and Plato. We most certainly do not use 'gay' as a synonym of happy- well, not since circa 1961. The word has the same usage as it does in the States ;)

Mind you, I've often felt the descriptor 'neurotic' (or merely 'sad') to be a tad more apposite.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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CatGirl says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:26:

Wow this got long - could not read all

Kalder "Gay adoption of children?"

BTW - you may see this more often with men, but there are MANY lesbians that were married to men, had children and later end up in a relationship with a woman. In the case I mentioned? My friend had a son at 16 years old (young) - Married a man at a young age, divorced and met a woman who was a "second generation Lesbian" (her mother was a Lesbian too). My late friend's lover made an agreement with a male friend and did artificial insemination (before she met my friend). Had a beautiful daughter who was raised in an openly gay family.

It was my friend's son that had the problem....keep in mind - she came outta the closet when he was 12. This can create a different dynamic. He acted out (cant blame him), came to live with me and I was his legal guardian for a while. Again, it was hard for him - no one took him into consideration and he felt like he was being ganged up on by a houseful of women. And in his mind (not saying this was true) he was under the impression his newly found step mom was a man hater ;((

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:36:

"But they deserve to be taken in by families'

But my point isn't that being taken in by homosexual couple was better than a hetero couple, as i believe this would be the ideal, but rather between being taken in by a homosexual couple that is willing to raise them and give them love and as you so well put it, "institutional misery".

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:39:

billyb has a sensible side...

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CatGirl says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:41:

Getting a bit more caught up

Doc Will someone please define "Dysfunctional Family" for me? The term no longer seems to make sense here'

jaja - get outta my head!!!

One time I was in a meeting discussing a family case and the presenter commented "She comes from a dysfunctional family" I stood up in front of everyone and said "Can I please have ashow of hands? How many people here did Not come from a dysfunctional family?" One person raised her hand. I said "You are delusional" jeje (true story) I then requested we stop using that label in meetings -
Dysfunctional is an over used word if you ask me.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:46:

"billyb has a sensible side.."

I can surprise sometimes ;)

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:48:

"Dysfunctional is an over used word if you ask me."
as are normal, right/wrong, perfect, never, always, good/bad...

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kalder says on Jun 19, 2008, 10:55:

I appreciate your point billy and I am happy to concede that adoption by a homosexual couple is better for a Bulgarian orphan than being left to rot in a state barracks. Far better, in all likelihood. But still bad. Still wrong.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:04:

CK:

You say the same could be said for straight lifestyles going to straight bars. I think there is indeed a distinct gay lifestyle for several reasons:

1. Do straights go to gay bars to meet other straights? I would say there are few occurrences of this. Gays can go to straight bars to meet other gays.

2. The gay community is far smaller than the straight community. This is why there are gay bars. One of its purposes is to function somewhat as a support group. It allows for freedom of expression and being. In fact, in some areas of the United States, except for places like New York City and San Francisco, gay communities are somewhat secret societies for fear of gay bashers. Not so with straights.

3. Gays usually have higher income per capita and no children compared to straights on average.

4. Well-to-do gays usually choose live in prime-real estate areas such a Greenwich Village here in NYC, Miami South Beach, San Francisco, Provincetown in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, etc. Why is that? So they can live their same-sex lifestyle openly without retribution or scorn. This is not a concern for straights. Straights can live openly anywhere ceteris parabis. If you say that other so-called minority groups that have the same concerns – yes indeed - but not as homosexuals.

These are not just my observations but also from what gay acquaintances have told me through the years. True, they want to be treated the same as straights and their lifestyles regarded the same as anyone else’s but not all of society embraces them wholeheartedly. That’s why gays congregate to live in large metropolitan cities because they find more acceptance among open-minded liberal straights.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:05:

Why would it be better for a child be adopted by a straight couple than by a homosexual couple?
(Please, I don't want opinions, just facts.)

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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dwmte7 says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:08:

i ask this question because i'm clearly not in the know, nor the loop on such subjects, but is there any substance to the thought that 'child molesters'/predadors and such like are active or closet homosexuals?

patriarch

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:10:

If not "dysfunctional" then what term do you use to describe a heterosexual couples that mistreat their children? What would be the difference between a same-sex couple who have everything going for them and children? Hmm? By saying that ALL families, especially heterosexual couples are dysfunctional, then maybe it's better for children to be raised with a dysfunctional heterosexual couple than with a dysfunctional same-sex couple?

??

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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dwmte7 says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:10:

just recently, on tv, rodney dangerfield, in discourse with someone, commented, "....one of the highpoints of being bi-sexual is that your chances of having a date on the weekend are doubled." thus he.

patriarch

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:12:

Desi,

On opinion and facts - you poisoned the well here.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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billyb says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:20:

"Why would it be better for a child be adopted by a straight couple than by a homosexual couple?
(Please, I don't want opinions, just facts.)"

Desi, just to play devil's advocate, why don't you give us your "facts" as to why it's not? No opinions please;) BTW, I am all for gay adoption.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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CatGirl says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:22:

Douglas - Although you will find an incredible number of Lesbian/Gay people with a history of sexual abuse (all of the ones I know were BTW) either via rape over age or molestation.

But Pedophillia is completely different ballgame. You will also find most pedophils were sexually abused as children. Pedophillia is about children, some prefer same sex, some opposite sex, some both. They are wired very differently - it is all about incredible insecurity.
It is about many other things too.. but different than homosexuality from a Psych perspective.
Douglas, I know this is a very touchy subject. Tread lightly...but my very first case assigned to me in college was a Pedophile. It was an experience I will never forget. I learned a lot about this diagnosis and how they think.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:29:

(1) Fact: humans populated the Earth by more than 6.6 billion.

(2) Wisdom: Genesis 1: 27-28

God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

There is just something about this old standby that rings true, doesn’t it? I mean, the Earth couldn’t have been populated with same sex-couples, or could it have been? You see, Sacred Scripture does support facts of nature in this regard.

Now Desi, here is a question for you:

We have two couples. One is heterosexual and the other same –sex. These couples are both exactly the same in every way. For example, they are the same as far as income, values, professions, backgrounds, language, cultural heritage, etc., EXCEPT for their sexual orientation.

If each couple adopts a child, which child will have a healthier upbringing at all levels?

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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dwmte7 says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:40:

well, plato, unless there's some magic to butt f*****g that i've not heard about, we'ld still be with 'adam and evan'.

aw, common plato, unfair question to desi....you know the answer....neither.

patriarch

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:46:

LOL! Douglas - you're a pisser dude!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:49:

I think I'm done with this thread. Good one CG! I'll PM you later.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 19, 2008, 11:51:

Oh, I didn't mean to poison anything. I know people (myself included) tend to get rather opinionated around these topics yet I haven't read much research as why it would be more beneficial/harmful for a child to be raised up by same-sex parents.

I'm one of those old-timers who have had to re-think the whole homosexual issue as I was raised up and educated to believe that homosexuality was almost like some kind of genetic disease that might/might not be corrected with adecuate therapy and training. I used to claim that if we were meant to be homosexual then either sex should be able to produce an offspring without any help from the other, that from a biological point of view hererosexuality was the norm, the desirable sexual identity and orientation. (Thus I was originally pretty close to Plato's point of view, albeit for different reasons, since I have no religious background).

To your question, Plato:
I don't know. As far as I know, it should make no difference.

There was a recent Swedish study on homosexual brain: it would prove the fact that homosexuality is not a choice, but something people are born with. Thus a same-sex couple raising up a child should have no influence upon if the child will be gay or straight; it's already pre-determined.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080616101119.htm

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:06:

Fair enough Desi - thanks.

I know some here know of my religious background and training, but I also can argue on philosophical and scientific levels. After all, they are all different planes of truth if done correctly.

On the scientific level, you know there are studies that say the contary to the study you posted above. The effects of same-sex couples raising children may not be biological - indeed - but behaivoral.

As far as homosexuality by choice or predetermined? That's an interesting question. My wife always said that it was predetermined and I said it was by choice. Now I think it's both.

On gay adoption: I have to say I'm indifferent but I am concerned about how children are treated by their peers. You know children can be brutally honest with each other and that has to be psychologically traumatizing for children of same-sex couples.


Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:47:

Gay marriages have been legal here in Sweden since 2003. Gay couples are also allowed to adopt children and here nobody hardly ever raises an eyebrow if a child has same-sex parents, perhaps somewhere out in the boondocks but not in Stockholm or any larger cities.
I've had at least one clearly gay 6-year-old student; a little boy who only played with dolls and loved to dress-up; his whole body language was that of a little girl. I met his parents (as straight as they come) not long ago, asked about the son and they said "well, you remember him, right? the way he was?. He's just the same, but more so." So, here we have, one obviously gay child raised up by straight parents and he's definitely gay; his sexual orientaion is accepted as matter-of-fact by his parents.

The Swedish study is very recent, it came out of the presses just about a week ago. It's the first comprehensive study done on homosexual brain symmetries and how they compare with the brain of their heteresexual counterparts.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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CatGirl says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:52:

Plato - I like how you summed it up. I may have a more difficult time coming to exact opinions on parts of this topic because I have found the definition of homosexuality to be subjective for people that I have asked. Yes! I ask them why. So I really prefer to leave it up to them to fight it out.

But I do have concerns for whether people that have "decided" to play with their own team for the purpose of anger/rage/hate as the result of abuse (molestation/rape) - I question if their choice is really because they are lesbian or gay. Example - I spoke with a woman who had been brutally raped and said she preferred women after this occurred because she "hated" men. To me, this is not healthy and I do not think her choice is based on sexual preference.

Gay adoption - I am indifferent too, as I have seen negative effects on the children for the same reason Plato mentioned.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:55:

I agree with that study. I think you are born either gay or straight. Now some people might choose to explore their sexuality, but that is different from their predominant orientation.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 13:10:

Desi,

I haven’t had time to evaluate all claims and their sources but there are journals listed in the bibliography. As to their prestige and rank in their respective fields, I’m not sure.

Second, this article is not as timely are yours (April 2004).

Third, this article doesn’t come from a religious organization.

Fourth, the study is from Canada, not the USA.


Quote:

"Higher Incidence of Same-sex Orientation

Same-sex parents are inclined to influence their children's sexual orientation. A study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, stated as follows:

..there are developmentally important, statistically significant differences between children reared by homosexual parents compared to heterosexual parents. For example, children raised by homosexuals were found to have greater parental encouragement for cross-gender behaviour [and] greater amounts of cross-dressing and cross-gender play/role behaviour."

Source: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2004/apr/040428c.html

My point here, as I mentioned previously, is that there are conflicting claims on the effects of same-sex parenting.


Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 19, 2008, 13:27:

I think it's too early to get a clear picture of whether it's good or bad or makes no difference since gay marriages/child adoption has been legal in most countries for such a short while. A good longitudinal research on human development would need at least 20 years of feedback observations.

I would think that being raised up by same-sex parents would influence a child's attiudes on same-sex marriage and parenting very deeply, but not necessarily the child's sexual identity or orientation.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 19, 2008, 14:08:

Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 14:12:

Desi wrote:

"A good longitudinal research on human development would need at least 20 years of feedback observations."

Agreed.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 17:17:

On gay culture, hence their lifestyle:

“To Clint Wolbert, 28, marriage is too “assimilative." Being gay is like belonging to an “exclusive club," Mr. Wolbert said. “I just worry that the drive to marry will end up kind of chipping away at the culture?

So, according to Wolbert, being gay is superior than being straight? And, does the gay lifestyle reflect this? Hmm . . .

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/15/us/15marriage.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1... couples &st=nyt&scp=2 (This is , of course, from the very liberal, left wing New York Times.)


Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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podborski says on Jun 19, 2008, 17:23:

so after glancing quickly over all this, it seems everyone is happy if gays do everthing heteros do, have all the same rights etc., so long as they use a different label than 'marriage'

ahhhhh ok.....

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Plato says on Jun 19, 2008, 18:05:

Pod,

How about it then? Then why doesn't the gay community agree to call it a civil union? Like you, I think it's petty. Thus it's should be called a CIVIL UNION, and not marriage.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Robert Jorge says on Jun 19, 2008, 20:06:

I thought the "gay lifestyle" was the enjoyment of Celine Dion, Lucille Ball and Liza Minelli, musicals, Wizard of OZ, and getaways to Key West or New Orleans.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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podborski says on Jun 19, 2008, 20:13:

Plato, I don't care what they call it, I just can't believe people get worked up over a label.

People have too much time on their hands

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CatGirl says on Jun 19, 2008, 22:32:

Pod - jeje -

Plato/Desi "Higher Incidence of Same-sex Orientation

Same-sex parents are inclined to influence their children's sexual orientation. A study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior"

If you really think about this and step back - look at the whole picture - isn't this pretty much true for many things a child is raised around? Example: Alcoholic parents, Substance abuse, Domestic violence, Obese parents, Religion of parents, Educational or Occupation of parents, Hobbies and interests? It is all influential on the children. Correct?

I can say - most of the people I know who are homosexual/bisexual (whatever sexual - blah, balh) were raised in homes with heterosexual parents. I can only think of one or two that were not. I dont doubt the studies/reports, doesnt it already go without saying or studying?

I think I am more concerned about how damaging the influence is to the children.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 19, 2008, 23:13:

CatGirl, I don't believe living with gay parents would impact a child's sexual identity or orientation at all. However, I'm pretty sure it would have a great influence on the attitudes this child will have towards same-sex parenting.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 03:52:

Pod, so your opinion is based on . ..............what?? By the way, are you married? Any kids?

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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kalder says on Jun 20, 2008, 04:09:

It doesn't matter how we 'believe' adoption by a pair of homosexuals would effect a child's development. More to the point, is the fact that we don't know. It's a gamble, a leap in the dark, an experiment to appease the shrill Gay lobby and the trendy liberal establishment. Surely it's better to stick with the tried and tested, culturally, morally and biologically enshrined method of parenting -a mum and a dad- than to play fast and loose with kids' lives?

I know you lefties (and some of you righties) are falling over yourselves to usher in the Brave New World. But for the love of Christ, can't you leave the children out of it?

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 04:17:

Kalder,

Pints on me when I go to England, friend.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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kalder says on Jun 20, 2008, 04:24:

How very gracious sir!

I'll be delighted to return the honour the following evening!

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 04:30:

Jaja! Thanks Kalder.

Can you imagine. I come back and I read about religion and Bible bashing, gays getting married, them raising children, disrespecting the office of the US president, etc., etc. Sorry I wasn't here to help you keep these left-wing liberals in line.

You know, it's been awhile since I got nutty on this forum. I suddenly feel a rise in my temperature. . . .. . .Jajajaja!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 04:48:

Hey Kalder, then we do some martial arts training after we're pissed drunk off our assess. . . .

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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CatGirl says on Jun 20, 2008, 06:01:

Morning Desi - I understand your comment. Again, I have no opinon at this time on that specific area. I guess, really....I don;t really care. If they are happy I am happy. If the children are happy I am happy. Guess since I am hetero I really don't feel all that qualified to form any belief. I just listen and learn from those in the trenches ;) And try not to judge in areas I have not walked in the shoes of......or maybe I need more coffee..jeje

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 10:43:

DocWilliam,

Don't believe we've met before. Good post. I lose that argument all the time with my wife - the whole choice vs. "born gay thing." I thought it was by choice and still do. But now I'm open to the idea that some people are born that way.

Anyway, when you're exposed to gay culture like I am in NYC, you kind of get use it and don't even notice the difference most times. It becomes almost like what the kids say today - whateeevvvvvveerrrr!!!!!! I suppose it's not the same in redneck America.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 11:59:

gender isn't as straightforward male/female as many believe...
people here need to read on 'gender' and the sociology of gender... a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender






spoiler alert: you find out it's a social construction

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CatGirl says on Jun 20, 2008, 12:27:

Doc: "The thing i noted most often, when taliking to them, is The Choice."

Good point, this is another reason why I have not formed an opinion. I have heard "both" - some say they knew from birth or had tendencies and some that made the choice for whatever reason. Also I have had some people that consider themselves bisexual OR have insisted on no label at all as they point out to me, "you really can't choose who you fall in love with"

I have found that the people I have asked that consider it a "choice" (vs innate at birth) have more internal or self serving agendas. Some because of bad experiences and some have blatently told me (gay men only) that "it is easier to get a guy in bed than woman. No need to wine and dine, or talk - just get to the point - men are such whores"
(hmmm...that seems a bit contradictary to the recent study that gay men's brains are similar to women - go figure)

So much for the studies.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 12:43:

CatGirl- you do understand gender is a spectrum though, right?

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podborski says on Jun 20, 2008, 12:47:

Plato,

never been married, never even close really, grew up with staunchly catholic parents. Two older brothers both happily married for 20 plus years, lots of nieces and nephews, pretty close family.
(Which reminds me of another topic I for some reason find fascinating, that birth order determines your personality, so as the youngest I am the rebel, with the extreme ideas/lifestyle, a darwinian thing, while oldest children tend to be conservative, surrogate parents)

Anyway, I just don't think it's any of my business what two consenting adults do or what they call it.

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 13:19:

Thanks Pod. I appreciate your response.

Regards,

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Jun 20, 2008, 13:22:

Romy,

That's very interesting stuff you brought up about gender. That it's a social construction -is news to me.

I'd like to read more on this but I don't trust Wikipedia. Any respectable sources on the topic?

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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CatGirl says on Jun 20, 2008, 13:28:

Romy: CatGirl- you do understand gender is a spectrum though, right?


I am glad you asked this. Good question to ask me, a big topic these days and I think I need to be more educated in this area and with this term. Here we are talking about same sex marriage and it feels so....mmmm....old (only word I can think of now) or medevil times to me....but for some it is new and too real for others- OK

But wait! transgender is another thing that is becoming more mainstream. And - I have had exposure to this too. But, when they talk to me about "gender" terminology I really dont grasp it yet. I try, I really do. I even tell them "I think I understand". So maybe Romy you could refer me to some "simple" (please) objective (please) resources that will help me understand this new concept.
Gracias

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 13:53:

This seems to be a highly referenced source:
Chafetz, JS. Masculine/Feminine or Human? An Overview of the Sociology of Sex Roles. Itasca, Illinois: F. E. Peacock, 1974 (1st ed.), 1978 (2nd ed.)

On Gender it seems like John Money has done a lot of work... This is not my field of work/expertise/study so I haven't read any. http://books.google.ca/books?as_auth=John Money&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=author-navigational&hl=en


I would however suggest that a controversial topic like gender is likely to be addressed in a "simple" and "objective" manner on wikipedia.

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 13:59:

look up
http://www.genderspectrum.org/

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 20, 2008, 15:10:

Gender is related to how we perceive ourselves and its usually and mistakenly used when people actually want to say sex, but feel 'gender' would be more educated. Sex and Gender are very different, sex is not a dirty word.
Sex sex sex sex sex sex.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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chispajuisiosa says on Jun 20, 2008, 17:06:

Hi CG! I read your post when you first wrote it on Wednesday, but did not comment on it. It is definitely a very controversial subject. I know I am new to PBH, but, after reading almost 100+ comments on this topic, I would like to ask: of ALL of you who have commented/opinionated on this post, how many of you are truly gay or lesbian and have/had first-hand experience living IN this "lifestyle"?

"When there is no other explanation...there is only ONE explanation!"

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CatGirl says on Jun 20, 2008, 17:29:

Romy - Thanks...uh - pretty much what I thought... a lot of reading/info - good info ..But I will keep in mind these references. I honestly do not have the time for that type of reading at this time. I am also sure that by the time I do - there will be more books out there.

CK - I think for my own personal purposes your definition helps me for now. Again, it sounds about as subjective as everything else these days. Yes and that was the Big Red flag that created the contraversial conversation, when I said sex or sexual orientation. i was corrected and the word gender came up and then everyone started to sound like Charlie Brown's parents. I have trouble keeping up...
Listen, people are people. If you know who you are - more better for you ;). And hopefully if you know who you are, you know what you like and we go from there.

Hello Chis, I will open the floor to those that apply. Personally, I probably come under the category of not wanting to be labeled. But as of today 6/20/08 I would be considered hetero and have been all my life. Have have ample opprotunities in the past and waiting in the sidelines...only have connected with men, been attracted to men and that's about it...so i defer to the others... Budummm

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 19:03:

I haven't read that much about it either.
gender is a social construction... sex is biological

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CatGirl says on Jun 20, 2008, 19:17:

Yeah...makes sense to me,just people need to relax with all the PC words sometimes. I think we all have a yin and yang or whatever you want to call it. It's good to be in touch with both and comfortable with both. But anything beyond that may be too complicated for me and people get too hung up and analytical about it sometimes.
Now you say social construction? That sounds really more external to me. Oh well.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 21, 2008, 03:45:

I had to take a year long course on gender studies *gets the creeps*. It tends to get a bit complicated but basically it is what Romy said? Sex is determined biologically (hormones, gonads, all that jazz), gender is how we perceive ourselves as people in regards to our sexual tendencies, habits, place in society.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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dwmte7 says on Jun 21, 2008, 04:20:

the most simple truth goes like this. we are either men or women...what we do with that reality, is up to us.

patriarch

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CatGirl says on Jun 21, 2008, 10:04:

CK - "place in society"

Maybe this is why I tune out when it is explained ;) My rebellious side again. Plus the complicated thing. Hey, if you asked me the difference between a transexual and a tranvesite, I could answer you without offering a course or reading a book uno? So again, maybe the gender thing is to much over the top with me. I think it's good to be in touch with both internally and be "you" and know "you"

Douglas - yep.

Looks like no one wants to answer Chijs's question.....got reeeaaally quite for a while there on this thread.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 21, 2008, 13:12:

romy says on Jun 21, 2008, 14:10:

I guess some people just choose to ignore biology and sociology... it's not just men and women... genetics is an interesting field... you know the X and the Y chromosomes and then you also get the XXYs and the single Xs and then the recombinations in these chromosomes that lead to the transexuals and the metros and the womenly men and the manly women and the hermis and the gays and lesbians or even bisexuals. That's not even getting into the sociology of male roles and female roles that sometimes are intermixed and who determined that cooking was something women should be good at? that's what social contruction means.

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kalder says on Jun 21, 2008, 15:21:

Pod's never been married?

Oh lucky, lucky man!

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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CatGirl says on Jun 21, 2008, 16:45:

Romy - I understand what you mean ;) I am am getting a better pic of it all as the thread progresses. thanks...OK Puuurr

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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MaFe says on Jun 22, 2008, 16:58:

Whatever people decide, it's their choice. If gay couples want to get married and adopt I see nothing wrong with that, they have the right to have families too!

Who are we to judge or prevent people from being happy? I would expect outdated answers from my parents generation, not from educated people living in this era!

Science is science, but not everyone lives in statistics or following what society expect of us..

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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podborski says on Jun 22, 2008, 21:06:

kalder...it's not the first time I have heard that sentiment...

about the only people I know who have had happy, long term marriages, are my two older brothers.

I'm quite happy being single, although the dry spells do get extreme sometimes. (I know, married folks have them too)

I personally always found the thrill of the chase the best part

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dwmte7 says on Jun 23, 2008, 04:17:

i guess i'm just the old guard/mindset/bent, but XX, XYX, YX and all that, not withstanding, it still gets down to a whole world full of guys and gals......doing what they will with the givins.

men ain't got no 'tutous' and gals ain't got no 'shlonks'. such changes only come about by the surgeons knife and bear testimony, once again, of folks.....'doin what they want'.

i'm not taken sides in any respect, but something which is clear to the common eye should not cause controversy. i just function along the lines that every chicken is allowed his/'her own roost. kinda like live and let live.....

patriarch

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romy says on Jun 23, 2008, 05:36:

it probably wouldn't be in good taste to post a picture of someone that has both.... or none. women with elevated testosterone or men with elevated estrogen. I guess I don't have quite the 'common eye'.

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dwmte7 says on Jun 23, 2008, 08:31:

drag (no pun intended) them photos out, romy...make believers out of us all...........

patriarch

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CatGirl says on Jun 23, 2008, 11:29:

Romy ' Careful with those chromosome comments...they have found at least one of those combos (cannot recall exact combo right now) creates a tendency for a person to be a Sociopath. It has been used in court cases as proof that the person was not responsible for their behavior since they were genetically prdetermined to have certain behaviors. ;))

About hormones? Have a friend who says she has elevated testosterone. Her facial hair started and she got obessed and started pulling it out and shaving. Hard to tell if what she did made it worse? She is a very nice person but has an insatiable sex drive But no violent tendencies. She is also under the impression that since her testoserone levels are high, hence the out of control sex drive - NOT. Her nympho issues have nothing to do with her hormone levels.

Men with elevated Estrogen? Hmmm. I have seen gynomastia in men with decreased testosterone - but never really looked at the "estrogen levels" Unless of course you are talking about oral supplements?

Uno - they did a study (long time ago) on the effects adrenaline has on the fetus, as adrenaline inhibits testosterone. The idea was to "prove" that homosexuality was the reult of this (?? hey what can I say?). They decided to study and follow males born to mothers who had fathers that were in Vietnam, figuring this would create enough stress = adrenaline = decrease/inhibit testosterone during fetal development. The findings were incredible for the number of males born from this study - basically it "proved" that the decreased testosterone levels during fetal development was the cause of homosexuality.
Now this was a study they presented to us in a Psych and Childhood development Class - I was young - did think it was interesting, but it must not have held too much water cuz never heard about it since ?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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dwmte7 says on Jun 23, 2008, 11:35:

kitty, sweetie...it's far too late in the the day and far to far into vodka and coke to extract any reasonably intelligent/applicable responses from me. i'm temporarily out here in the 'peanut gallery' musing over the thoughts of you deep intellectuals. waaaay deep shit......


if you don't believe me, ask peter or maarit. they know the truth, i believe everything they say. period.

patriarch

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CatGirl says on Jun 23, 2008, 11:43:

Huh?? Wot?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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CatGirl says on Jun 23, 2008, 11:43:

Better? jeje

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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dwmte7 says on Jun 24, 2008, 04:19:

new day...the vodka haze is slowly lifting. been a real loooooooong time since i hung one on.

patriarch

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kalder says on Jun 24, 2008, 04:56:

Stick to beer Doug. It's much kinder.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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dwmte7 says on Jun 24, 2008, 08:35:

you might have a point kalder. this is some vodka...kettle one...of which, number # 2 son, spoke approvingly and #1 son bought for me. must say, it's smoothe as silk and didn't leave a hang over, but did, indeed, f**k me up.

patriarch

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romy says on Jun 24, 2008, 09:07:

CatGirl- I believe most behaviours are determined by genetics. However, modified by environment. Twin studies are very interesting.

I think you refer to XYY, however...
"A popular misconception in the 1960s and 1970s that XYY males were more prone to criminal behavior led to several novels and TV series which exploited the idea with little regard to the science. Robin Chapman's 1971 episode of the BBC television science fiction series Doomwatch (titled 'By The Pricking Of My Thumbs ...') portrayed the tragic results of this misconception being taken as fact by authority figures.

Less sympathetically, Kenneth Royce's series of novels about The XYY Man partially played up to the stereotype, with an anti-hero figure William 'Spider' Scott, whose extra Y chromosome is seen in part to be responsible for his career as a highly skilled (though non-violent) cat-burglar. Royce's books were turned into a TV series in the UK which ran 3 episodes in the summer of 1976 and 10 episodes in the summer of 1977.

In the film Alien 3 (1992) the protagonist lands on a prison planet populated by XYY criminals, with the implication that they are more prone to commit assault, rape or molestation.

The short story "The Procrustean Petard," a Star Trek-based short story by Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath, depicted a story where the crew of the Enterprise had their genders reversed, all but Spock who'd instead been given an extra Y chromosome. McCoy was concerned whether Spock's emotional control could handle the "hyper masculinity" the extra Y would cause, worried that he might become prone to emotional outbursts, even violence.

In the episode "Born Bad" of the show Law & Order the defense strategy for Chris Paulit, a young boy accused of beating to death another boy, is his extra Y chromosome. Experts are called to testify that the XYY syndrome is more common among the prison population."

read on Intersexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality), which shatters this lay mentality of 2 sexes

I'd have to look further at the actual effect of overproduction of estrogen in males... female-like breasts seem to be the rumour.

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CatGirl says on Jun 24, 2008, 11:13:

Got ya Romy - I saw your comment about "Kenneth Royce's series of novels about The XYY Man partially played up to the stereotype"

Interesting and new info for me, but no worries I do not refer to this type of information from my knowledge ;) The first part of my College Education focused on rare birth defects that cause death and/or severe chronic disabilities (medical and/or psych).

Gracias

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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slguy says on Jun 25, 2008, 08:44:

While I have much respect for Plato's and Kalder's POVs- I can't help asking myself...

Why should hetero couples be the only ones who have to suffer thru marriage? Why shouldn't they get screwed in court like the rest of us, when the marriage ends?

;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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dwmte7 says on Jun 25, 2008, 09:07:

so here ya are, guy...... kinda missed your pov's on this that and the other. the search party is still out. you were listed as missing in action and a few went in search. i figured you were between the 'devil and the deep blue sea'.....all's well that ends well.

how's the boat coming?
d

patriarch

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slguy says on Jun 25, 2008, 09:11:

In another thread, I admitted to a little Bahamian getaway, Douglas. Unplanned, but a blast.

Thanks for asking....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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romy says on Jun 25, 2008, 09:11:

I was the most worried

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CatGirl says on Jun 25, 2008, 13:20:

Welcome back Sailor! Everyone thought you washed ashore....or yer ticker was acting up again ;))

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Plato says on Jun 26, 2008, 07:17:

Slguy,

Good to read you're well and see you posting.

The media is already reporting that married gay couples are having all kinds of drama, like heteros, now that they've been married for some years. Many are divorced.

I mentioned previously that some gays think their sexual orientation is elitist so why do should they do like heteros?

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Jun 26, 2008, 07:28:

Hey Slguy,

What would your Southern Baptist, bible-thumping, roots say about same-sex marriage? Just curious. ( Jajaja!)

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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slguy says on Jul 2, 2008, 11:07:

I'm ok with it, Plato. as long as both the chicks are hot. ;)

Don't wanna share a house with a gay couple, under any circumstances....but I've got better things to worry about, frankly. They can do as they please- from a distance. jajajajaja

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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CatGirl says on Jul 3, 2008, 21:41:

Oh Sailor man - every mans fantasy...nothing new, jejeje

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 05:47:

i could put up with two gay couples--if all four of the ladies were gorgeous--living in my basement....they wouldn't have to live at a distance. you could even come visit, guy.

patriarch

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MaFe says on Jul 12, 2008, 11:33:

jaaaaaaaaaaaaaa DWM.......jaaaaaaaaaa

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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