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Economist -- What US Employers Think Of Immigration

http://www.economist.com/daily/chartgallery/displaystory.cfm?story_id=...

By Man Tequila on Jan 17, 2008, 17:01 in Off Topic.

Man Tequila says on Jan 17, 2008, 17:05:

"IMMIGRATION is a thorny issue in America and beyond. In the campaign to be president most candidates are presenting themselves as tough on undocumented migrant workers. That resonates well with some voters. But employers are worried most about a shortage of highly skilled foreign workers, according to a survey by the Economist Intelligence Unit, a sister organisation to The Economist. Most of the 500 senior or management-level executives who were polled in America thought that making it easier to hire foreign workers was a more important issue than keeping migrants out. Nearly half said that neither the Democratic party nor the Republican one represented their views on immigration."

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

john_stark says on Jan 17, 2008, 19:02:

You know what employers are REALLY worried about? Having to pay wages high enough to attract the workers they need. They would rather pay illegals a pittance. There are no shortages of workers that sufficiently high wages won't cure.

Man Tequila says on Jan 17, 2008, 19:50:

I agree, but there is a difference between farmers looking for anyone to pick fruit cheaply (or slaughterhouses looking for cheap labour willing to put up with crappy work conditions) and technology firms looking for skilled engineers who are unable to extend their student visa after graduating, so return to Bangalore and Shangai.

scotty says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:08:

JS has it right again.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

Plato says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:14:

Nice thread. I agree with JS. Don't understand MT's point, however.

"...and technology firms looking for skilled engineers who are unable to extend their student visa after graduating, so return to Bangalore and Shangai."

Much professional work is being globalized like the labor of relatively unskilled immigrants. However, many U.S. employers gain much, although illegally, from paying below minimum wages to immigrants that work 50 to 60 hours per week for a 40 hours per week job. If these immigrants become legal, they pay minimum wage, and legally required benefits such as overtime (1.5x over 40 hours), worker's compensation, state unemployment insurance tax , and (in some states) short term disability.

In Massachusetts', Mitt Romney implemented a mandatory statewide healthcare for employees in small establihsments. Imagine that employer cost!

It's a good thing MT's profession requires a one on one bedside manner, otherwise we would be seeing cyber doctors from India as well. My profession, an economist, can easily be outsourced, just like actuaries and scientists.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Man Tequila says on Jan 17, 2008, 21:01:

Some professional work is being globalized, as the growth in Bangalore proves. Also telemarketing, IT, etc. etc.

An employer looking for anyone willing to work for peanuts to do an unskilled job that anyone could do is looking to save money, or pass expenses on to taxpayers by paying workers under the table. This is common, and JS is on point.

The majority of people doing graduate degrees in engineering in the US are not Americans. Since these students often have difficulty staying in the US once graduated, they are returning to their own countries. Despite global trends, many technology companies lookjing for laborers with certain skills at market (and not minimum) prices are annoyed with these difficulties. And many think this hurts American innovation, a surprising and disproportionate number of US inventions and patents are made by immigrants rather than natives. This is a question of skills rather than a cheaper salary, these aren't minimum wage jobs and there is high demand for these students in their own country.

Something like radiology is ideal for globalization, it is easy to send an X-ray image digitally anywhere, and anyone can read it. Radiologists often never see the patient anyway, but they are not too scared due to (i)legal and confidentiality concerns outweighing practicalities, (ii)licensing issues and concerns about competency, (iii)prices gradually rising towards the US value given the fact the number of radiologists is still limited in India, etc. (iv)radiologists would still be needed for more complex imaging and cases and would not offer this advice if they were screwed over on their bread and butter stuff.

Emergency and family medicine are far more complex, and there are even more obstacles to telemedicine and remote treatment.

john_stark says on Jan 17, 2008, 21:44:

You must be a shill for Microsoft. They want to hire a lot of foreign IT people so that they can pay them less. In fact they opened a shop in Canada north of the border so they could staff it with underpaid foreigners. Believe me, there are enough US residents who would do these jobs but not at the wages they are paying. It's all about screwing US citizens for bigger corporate profits. I say, Fuck 'em! And you know what we ought to do with all those foreigners in US grad schools? Boot them the hell out and give those spots to US residents.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 17, 2008, 22:05:

Do you really think 20-somethings with a four year degree should be earning very close to $100K in the Midwest (Minneapolis)? They cost a company $125K 'fully burdened.' Even with the soaring salaries in India we can get the same person at our facility in Bangalore for about $32K USD equivalent or from someone like Infosys Bangalore for $50K. And if the spread narrows more, i.e. US based vs. buying from a premium provider like Infosys in Bangalore, those Bangalore jobs will (in some cases already are) moving to China.

I don't like like it but it's the way of the world today. I/T people in the US have been fat and happy and perhaps a bit too greedy. They better have a really good skill set or work for a small company. If they work for a large company and they're just average, they're competing with Arup in Hyderabad.

john_stark says on Jan 17, 2008, 22:11:

Why bother going to India when you can come to Texas? We pay a graduate just starting out about 50K. No shortage of applicants either. I'm surprised more IT shops don't open up here ( a few have like Wachovia) but they're obsessed with India. Hell at the rate Indian wages are going we'll be cheaper than India!

john_stark says on Jan 17, 2008, 22:14:

I have close to 20 years experience doing every kind of IT work known to man from Cobol and IMS on the mainframe to Java and WebSphere on Linux boxes. I don't make anywhere near 100K.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 17, 2008, 22:14:

My company tried that in El Paso before we tried India, but it's hard to find the talent in El Paso. So those people, too, (application support/production support/SAP Basis/small enhancements and help desk) are getting canned and being replaced with Indians.

john_stark says on Jan 17, 2008, 22:17:

Give me a break! They didn't try very hard. UTEP graduates several hundred engineers and programmers each and every year! There is hardly any kind of IT work in El Paso so any company locating there could pick and choose from among those graduates. Let's face it, US companies are just plain lazy.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 17, 2008, 22:26:

Oddly enough, all the sales reps I'm talking to from some of the biggest Indian outsourcers are native Indians working from offices in Dallas.

miamimike says on Jan 18, 2008, 04:15:

What may be needed is an Increase in H visas then so be it. What we don't need are more undocumented illegals with NO Types of Visas. This does nothing to improve the wages of either Legal or illegal workers. I can't for the life of me figure out why the Bush adminsitration hasn't issued more Farmworker type visas to decrease the large number of illegals in this area.

Tinto, at least thoseTexas based Call Center reps are native English Speakers and can be understood; not so with those Reps in India located centers. I cancelled my AX Card just because of this reason.

They say in my Field( a medical related) there is a Shortage but in reality there is NO shortage, just a shortage of workers who will work for the Current Working wages and under Condition many in the industry feel are dangerous to patient and workers alike. Importing Foreign Workers will do nothing in the Long Term to improve wages or conditions. If conditions were truly improved, 450,000 workers would reappear in short time. Workers who are currently in other careers,,,,.Maybe we will see a change after Nov 2008,,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

morphus says on Jan 18, 2008, 04:46:

Indians are good at IT. You don't see Mexicans learning it. Theres not too many rednecks from Texas learning it either. My brother works in IT. He's always being sent to Texas, Arizona, Arkansas, ect.

john_stark says on Jan 18, 2008, 05:39:

I bet dollars to donuts that Tinto's company went to El Paso looking to find people with experience in SAP. They weren't going to find any because there just isn't a large pool of experienced IT professionals there. What they should have done is picked the best and brightest of UTEP's graduates and trained them in SAP. But American business is too short-sighted and lazy to do something like that. Imagine, train US workers! That's why I say Fuck 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Waterdawg says on Jan 18, 2008, 06:03:

Hey Stark ; interesting article for ya !

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=6702

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 06:53:

Legalize immigrant workers already here, pay them minimum wage, benefits, increase the tax base, expand public services, and give social security a boost from increased payroll taxes. Employers would gawk at this, but they're part of the problem and the rest of us pay for it. Public services are strained and the underground economy grows. Social security? Will that be around by the time I retire?

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 06:55:

It just occurred to me what are the "real" starting salaries between US and India accounting for the devaluing of the American dollar. The cost of living is lower in India so many live like monarchy over there. With price inflation in India, there has to be a point where the tide turns in America's favor. Our American goods have already cheaper for export. But then business entrepeneurs go to other countries. India, in fact, is passé.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 07:18:

I've given a lot of thought to to this immigration question lately. What have I decided? Nada, zip. no clue. Better brains than mine are gonna have to solve it.

For me, there's two opposing sides, and I can't figure out the more important one.

1. Practicality. No way we get rid of 12,000,000 illegals, practically speaking. No way we replace them, either. Americans simply won't fill the void, no matter how much whining is done about unemployment. Americans simply won't lower their lifestyle expectations sufficiently to live on minimum wage or anywhere close to it.

2. Moral/ethical. There's a world of good people in other countries patiently and LEGALLY waiting their turn to have a shot at the American dream. We tell them "sorry- you're screwed. You should have snuck in, or overstayed your tourist visa, instead of following our laws." I simply can't get my head around rewarding those who broke our immigration laws when so many good people don't break them, and deserve their shot.

I guess for me, it's a coin flip, lacking the ability to make a more rational call.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 07:33:

Slguy, you posited a classical dilemma: we agree on the facts but many of our values conflict and this is where the problem lies.

I agree wholeheartedly with those in the wings waiting to enter the USA legally. It's not fair to them. But then again. . . (throws his hands up) . . .it's a tough situation overall.

By the way, there aren't better brains than you that will solve this problem. Like I said before, it's about values, not the facts. At some point, we have to take a stand and take some shit for it.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

morphus says on Jan 18, 2008, 07:54:

The solution is simple: Kick all the illegals out and raise the minimum wage to $30 an hour like in Norway; import cheap goods from China. Then everybody has money to spend.

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:10:

Slguy, see? There's a value. Kick all the illegals out. Thanks Morph.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:20:

yep. sometimes overthinking is worse than not thinking at all. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

morphus says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:30:

Was'nt life in the U.S. better back in the 1950s? The husband went to work and the wife stayed home. There was'nt an illegal labor force back then. There were unions. A lot of blood was spilled to form those unions.

aztec says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:47:

An open-borders dictionary: sure-fire phrases that pander to the open-borders crowd.

"Living in the shadows": The gold standard of public utterances on illegal immigration that deftly defies reality while evoking Dickensian imagery to pull heart strings, use it liberally — but be ready in the unlikely event a reporter asks how public schools, hospitals and entire blue-collar industries like construction qualify as "shadows."

"The system is broken:" This gem is suitable for high-rotation use as well; but again, caution is warranted. Obviously steer clear of any effort to explain what you mean by "broken," lest you have to answer how it was broken and by whom. Have staff investigate potential answers in case you're asked if a system that successfully processes one million legal immigrants into the country every year is really broken just because five million more illegal immigrants that same year didn't want to obey our laws?

"Humane immigration reform": This is coded campaign-speak at its best and replaces "comprehensive immigration reform," which landed about as smoothly on the president's desk in 2007 as The Hindenburg did in New Jersey 70 years earlier. This less clinical sounding phrase describes the same mass amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, but is sugared up to make it easier for John Q. Public to swallow.

"Immigration is an emotional issue": A favorite of men in the 1950s who wanted to simultaneously patronize and belittle women who expressed their opinions at a volume anywhere north of a whisper by calling them "emotional." This retro-putdown is perfect to backhand constituents who are furious over the government's refusal to enforce the law and secure the borders. When using this line, try to strike Richard Benjamin's smarmy tone in "Diary of a Mad Housewife" for its full effect.

"Divisive rhetoric": Currently a standard on Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain's play lists, this cliche offers an echo of high-minded leadership yet limits exposure to blowback by being vague as to what actually is "divisive" about demanding the laws be enforced.

"Fear of the brown 'other' ": Great for those moments that call for tossing a racially-charged grenade into the American melting pot; it accuses the white majority in America of clinging to their inner bigot out of fear of seeing "brown" people in their midst. Note: this line is best used in front of white, uptown audiences who rarely see "brown others" outside of their nannies and gardeners. Avoid using it in working-class neighborhoods where Americans of every ethnic shade have been seriously impacted by illegal immigration.

"Jobs Americans won't do": Bush administration wordsmiths tinkered with this slap in the face of American workers and came up with "jobs Americans aren't doing," which still offers cover when making the case for the mass importation of no-skill and low-skill workers at the behest of business interMark Cromer is a Senior Writing Fellow for Californians for Population Stabilization.ests. Feel free to use the previous "won't do" version when addressing members of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the Manhattan Institute or the Wall Street Journal editorial board, as it's always good for a laugh among friends.

"Background checks on illegal immigrants": Smoke and mirrors at its finest, this line will allow you to sound diligent by assuring voters that your administration will make sure each and every one of the tens of millions of people who broke into the country and live here illegally by using a wide array of fraudulent documents are otherwise of the finest moral character. Whatever you do, don't attempt to explain what federal agency will conduct these background checks, how much it will cost the American taxpayer or how accurate they are likely to be. That will only remind citizens that this is the same brain trust that issued the September 11 hijackers visas, allowed them to obtain valid driver's licenses and ignored warnings about their activities before the attack — and there were only 19 of them.

Mark Cromer is a Senior Writing Fellow for Californians for Population Stabilization.

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:55:

Morph- labor unions LONG since outlived their usefulness in the US- they're an anchronism now, at best. They served their purpose LONG ago. Today, they're a major contributing factor to the decline of the US auto industry, to cite just one example.

Now if they would only catch on faster in Colombia- where they're needed today.....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

timeforachangeofid says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:07:

Maybe this is why it hasn't "caught on" faster in Colombia

The National Labor School (ENS) reports that 38 trade unionists were murdered in
Colombia between January 1 and December 1,2007. While this does reflect a welcome
decrease from the number of trade unionists murdered in 2006, the current rate of
murders still places the country in a class of its own. Since 1991,2,283 Colombian trade
unionists have been murdered. In the majority of cases where a motive for the murder
can be identified, the unionist was murdered because of his or her trade union activity.
The ENS also registered 201 death threats against trade unionists in the first eleven
months of 2007. These threats, though not as sensational, severely chill trade union
activity, particularly because so many of these threats have materialized in the past. The
combination of ongoing assassinations, death threats and violence against family
members creates a climate of fear for trade unionists that makes it impossible for them to
fully and confidently exercise their rights to organize, bargain collectively, go on strike or
criticize the government.
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/globaleconomy/upload/colombia...

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. Albert Einstein

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:13:

I understand fully the problems associated with union activity in Colombia - I was only commenting on the need for it, not the reasons it hasn't materialized. But thanks for the info.....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:28:

Slguy,

Although the power of the unions has diminished greatly in the USA, they are still a powerful force in New York City. For example, the Transit Worker Union can literally paralyze New York City ( by hundreds of millions of dollars a day) when goes it goes head to head with the Mass Transit Authority (MTA) . They're down, but not out. It's a bit of a stretch to say "they're an anchronism now, at best".

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

miamimike says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:30:

Morphus---Surprisingly, we did HAVE a problem with illegals in the 50s from Mexico and then Prez Eisenhower DID what was the Impossible. He rounded them up and Deported them! Not all, but many!

SLGuy--like you I cannot get my Arms around Legitimizing these 12,000,000 Illegals who broke our Immigration Laws, reward with them Amnesty, Like Reagan did in 1987 and like Bush wanted to do in 2007. Bush's Failed 2007 Immigration Proposal was simply a re-write of this failed 1987 Law that Reagan signed. It was a Bad law in 1987 and it was a Bad Law in 2007 and thats why the American Public, by a majority of 70 % overwhelmingly Opposed it and let their Lawmakers know vigorously they Opposed it. They will do the same in 2009. 2010 no matter what Party proposes it. We know both sides, with the exception of Romney, will want to do the same thing in the future after Jan 15, 2009. Offering Amnesty by legalizing these 12 Million Illegals is a Slap in the face to the 1000s waiting patiently in line to enter the US legally. What signal does this Send to those wanting to come here legally? Ths Signal is; break the Immigration laws and you will be rewarded!

SL Guy, Unions in my Industry(healthcare) have a bright Future and just won an a Organizing Campaign here with 7 Health Care facilities here in South Florida. Patient Safety Conditions and Adequate Medical Staff ratios were Larger Issues then Wages btw.

Eisenhower Deports Illegals: http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=11145

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:41:

Hardcore, Miamimike- good post.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:44:

I apologize for not being more clear in my sweeping generalization.

I've experienced the problems associated with the quality of health care in Florida- and know enough health care professionals here to understand why many of these problems exist- and it ISN'T lack of empathy on the part of the professionals. The problems are sistemic, not personal- and i agree that some degree of unionization in the industry could help...

As to the cities which retain strong union presence? I should have said, I guess, that they OUGHT to be anachronisms. I lived in St. Louis for a number of years- a very strong union town. My personal problem with the traditional unions these days is- the 3rd generation feeling of entitlement on the part of long-time union members. "I worked for GM for 30 years- they OWE me a generous lifestyle forever". Pardon me - but these guys are VASTLY overpaid every day of their working lives, for the work they do. To claim that after 30 years, the company owes you a substantial retirement income because you pissed away all the money you were overpaid for all those years is just ludicrous, in my book.

Fire away, now. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:48:

So, the question is how many did Prez Eisenhower deport back? What was the size of the US population back then? What impact did the illegals have on the economy back then? etc.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:53:

Slguy wrote:

"As to the cities which retain strong union presence? I should have said, I guess, that they OUGHT to be anachronisms.

(2) I lived in St. Louis for a number of years- a very strong union town. My personal problem with the traditional unions these days is- the 3rd generation feeling of entitlement on the part of long-time union members. "I worked for GM for 30 years- they OWE me a generous lifestyle forever". Pardon me - but these guys are VASTLY overpaid every day of their working lives, for the work they do. To claim that after 30 years, the company owes you a substantial retirement income because you pissed away all the money you were overpaid for all those years is just ludicrous, in my book."

I accept your opinion on this, but do not necessarily agree with all points.

"They OUGHT to be anachronisms." So unions are immoral?

Wow! So you think these union workers were overpaid? "Vastly" overpaid?

Unions are not a bad thing Slguy. Without them, corporate America would have taken more advantage of their workers without them. "Greed is good" (Gecko from the movie Wall Street).

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 10:08:

Slguy, may be you're a rich dude, but thank God for the unions!

My family came from Colombia in the 60s, worked in manufacturing factories and were union employees. They did honest hard work and the union looked out for them at the bargaining table. The benefits were decent and maybe they could have done better. But America gave them far more than what they were able to achieve in Colombia.

One of my uncles is a truckdriver (drives an 18 wheel rig) and the other is a handyman. Both are union employees. Each had to have surgery done because of injuries on the job. They make a modest living but still - you can say they live "poorbuthappy".

Now I know unions are corrupt and they had their heyday back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, but they were needed to prevent utter corporate greed and abuse.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 10:20:

Elmo introduced me to this guy on a fishing trip. He's one of Elmo's best buddies. Any way, the essence of this fine lecture is about "The Man" vs. the poor working man:

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

aztec says on Jan 18, 2008, 10:25:

George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline

Bush wants us to
cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to
stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants!

That would be 11
million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.....

Bring our troops
home from Iraq to guard the Border....

When they catch an
illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and
some ammo and ship him to Iraq ...

Tell him if he
wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military....

Give him a
soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it.....

After his tour, he
will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country.....

He will also be
registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot.....

This option will
probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops
in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves. ....

If they refuse to
serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.....

Problem
solved.....

Man Tequila says on Jan 18, 2008, 10:38:

Shill for Microsoft? I don't have a dog in the fight.

JS, you may be right in the fact the primary motivation of any business is mainly to pay lower salaries. However, a graduate engineering job is not going to be minimum wage.

IT may be a poor example of my point. However, salaries in India have been rising, towards US levels, as you agree (cheaper in Texas), and the same would happen if medical work was outsourced. Lots of applications means many think they can do the job, but this may not be true for every job.

Some companies claim they cannot fill positions requiring highly technical expertise due to difficulties with keeping graduates. This may boil down to a desire to pay lower wages and benefits, and certainly is with Microsoft which has done this for many years. I don't work in the US and cannot personally verify the veracity of these claims. It is easier to assume having fewer US technical graduates would have a cost in terms of innovation, and the Economist claims (elsewhere) a very disproportionate number of the most important and lucrative recent US patents were filed by immigrants to the US.

To me, the survey underscores the deep divisions that will prevent any sensible compromise being reached on this issue for years to come. I disagree with the political bias in Aztec's article, but have to admit it does a good job of clarifying the rhetoric. As for just accepting more US applicants into engineering and technical jobs, are qualified applicants there? What does this say about merit? Canadian universities love foreign students since they can charge them more, the same applies to the US; plus que change.

Man Tequila says on Jan 18, 2008, 10:38:

miamimike says on Jan 18, 2008, 11:10:

July 15, the first day of the operation, 4,800 aliens were apprehended. Thereafter the daily totals dwindled to an average of about 1,100 a day. The forces used by the government were actually relatively small, perhaps no more than 700 men, but were exaggerated by border patrol officials who hoped to scare illegal workers into flight back to Mexico. Valley newspapers also exaggerated the size of the government forces for their own purposes: generally unfavorable editorials attacked the Border Patrol as an invading army seeking to deprive Valley farmers of their inexpensive labor force. While the numbers of deportees remained relatively high, the illegals were transported across the border on trucks and buses. As the pace of the operation slowed, deportation by sea began on the Emancipation , which ferried wetbacks from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, and on other ships. Ships were a preferred mode of transport because they carried the illegal workers farther away from the border than did buses, trucks, or trains. The boat-lift continued until the drowning of seven deportees who jumped ship from the Mercurio provoked a mutiny and led to a public outcry against the practice in Mexico. Other aliens, particularly those apprehended in the Midwest states, were flown to Brownsville and sent into Mexico from there. The operation trailed off in the fall of 1954 as INS funding began to run out.

It is difficult to estimate the number of illegal aliens forced to leave by the operation. The INS claimed as many as 1,300,000, though the number officially apprehended did not come anywhere near this total. The INS estimate rested on the claim that most aliens, fearing apprehension by the government, had voluntarily repatriated themselves before and during the operation. The San Antonio district, which included all of Texas outside of El Paso and the Trans-Pecos, had officially apprehended slightly more than 80,000 aliens, and local INS officials claimed that an additional 500,000 to 700,000 had fled to Mexico before the campaign began.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plato- in the above Link I put in my Prior post, sift through the Claims and come up with an Approx number. The main thing is he(Ike) tried what MANY Claimed to be an Impossible goal. While he didn't deport all of them, he made a big Dent in the Problem. Doesn't seem at all impossible today, given the Technology we now have in this Hi tech Computer Age. I much rather would have seen our Billions spent on this Endeavor then in the Iraq Crusade, where in the End the Arabs will want us to leave. Bet for the 2 Billion we spend weekly, this could have went a LONG way in rectifying and reducing the Huge number of Illegals here in the USA.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Man Tequila says on Jan 18, 2008, 11:22:

MiamiMike, I don't really agree with this strategy. Independent of that, I don't see a 1954 operation being easy or practical to do today for many reasons, technology not being all that important a criterion.

Not least because of less general racism in society between 1954 and 2008 and/or more desire to avoid the stigmata of racism, businesses often benefiting from illegal immigrants, more integration and stronger networks of both legal and illegal immigrants, various legal decisions since 1954, political will, degree of voluntary repatriation anticipated, high cost of legal actions, diffusion of areas with higher levels of immigrants, etc.

Desi1 (Moderator) says on Jan 18, 2008, 11:44:

Good thread, wrong forum.

podborski says on Jan 18, 2008, 11:57:

my friend in the IT business puts out tenders for writing code and gets responses from all over the world. He hires these guys (and girls) without ever meeting them, maybe not even talking to them.

Anyone who thinks that stopping immigration (legal or otherwise) or stopping foreignors from going to US schools will help insulate the US economy from lower priced skilled labour elsewhere is fooling themselves.

Companies will hire the best people for the best price, period. And no amount of laws or regulations will stop it. (Companies will just relocate if they aren't allowed to compete in the USA due to restrictions).

I suggest you get used to the idea. In the modern world just about anything can be done anywhere in the world.

You might want your children to become plumbers if that idea worries you : )

podborski says on Jan 18, 2008, 11:59:

I am amused that it is the left (and the far right) that are opposed to immigration and globalization.

Shouldn't the left be happy that poor chinese and indians are getting jobs?

droble77 says on Jan 18, 2008, 12:33:

Now that the globalization train has picked up enough momentum, it's pretty much impossible to stop it now. Best anyone can do is keep informed of the trends and try to position themselves on the winning side of the equation.

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 12:45:

Maybe I'll provide you just two of many examples that color my view of contemporary unionism...

1. I hired a salesman to work at my company, who had some 6-9 months earlier been laid off from a St. Louis Ford assembly plant. Doug was looking for work since his worker's comp/union benefits had run their course. His job at Ford was installing the hoods on Crown Victorias. This was almost 30 years ago, so my numbers are recollections, but certainly not exact. Something on the order of 8-10 bolts per hood, 4-5 cars per hour. Total of call it 50 bolts per hour. With an air wrench. Don't even start with how skilled this job was- by Doug's own admission, your average chimp could be trained to do it. His salary for this, before benefits? $40,000+ per year- in the late 70's.

2. Early on in my STL days, I went on a construction jobsite. My company had contracted with the local ornamental ironworkers to install curtainwall material on the skin of this 12 story building. As I watched, the crew came to a place where the metal studwall onto which they were installing the material had a stray 2x4 brace penetrating the plane of the wall. Two screws secured the wooden brace to the metal studs. We were on about the 4th floor. What was their solution? Get on the radio to call a carpenter down from the 12th floor to remove this wooden brace. They all sat down to wait for the carpenter to make his way down 8 floors. When I asked why in hell they were doing this - the explanation was "that brace is wood. Carpenter's work. We won't touch it." I was...incensed at this silliness. So- I slapped the 2x4 a couple times, until it fell loose, out of their way. Their response? They walked off the job. "non-union labor"- and stayed gone for three hours. And sent us the bill for a full day's work.

These are just a couple of the hundreds of examples of unions' discouraging the productivity of its' members. I could go on. I guess defining how hard someone works is a nebulous thing. Those union construction workers would undoubtedly claim to be busting their asses every day. Me? I know better.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 14:24:

MiamiMike - I'm impressed. I may not agree with you but you can certainly make an argument.

Cheers mate - Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

miamimike says on Jan 18, 2008, 18:12:

MT--I think what Ike did in '54 on deporting the Illegals was correct. And it is correct stratagy today as Evidenced by the Fact that over 70% of the Americans let their Congressmen/Women know that they were NOT supporting Bush's Amnesty plan that rewarded those who broke the US Immigration Laws with De facto Amnesty. They sent Congress a Strong Message and Congress backed down. Ane they, we will do it again, no matter what Party elects a President. These 70%, myself included are Pro Immigration but Anti-Illegal Immigration. Big Difference between the two. Amnesty isn't going to happen. Seems I never get a clear cut answer on HOW we reward those 1000s of Applicants waiting in Long Lines at our US Embassies abroad, patiently and legally, for their chance to immigrate to the USA. Amnesty for Illegals would be a Slap in their Face saying to those Visa Applicants "come anyway you can, don't worry about the Law of the Land, We will give you Amnesty." Ain't gonna happen,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 20:06:

Good examples Slguy. I wouldn't even think of challenging your experiences concerning union abuses. But should we discuss the corporate abuses and the reason why unions came into being? Let's not get into that either because I know you'll agree with me on many points.

I don't condone the union abuses you stated above either.

About the salary at the Ford assembly plant: I think there are many factors unaccounted for here.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:32:

Plato, I would NEVER claim that unions have never been vital to American labor. When the labor movement first gained a toehold, and for years afterward, they did very good things for labor- even setting aside the widespread corruption always present in the labor movement.

I'm just saying that for a variety of reasons, today they are anochronistic, except of course, from the perspective of those who rake in salaries completely disproportionate to their skills. Benefits that from my point of view are outdated and often counterproductive.

Of course there are widespread corporate abuses. Enron, among others, was a travesty. But I have to say, at the risk of sounding arrogant, that if had I been an Enron employee, no matter what Kenny Boy said, it would not have occurred to me to leave my life savings in Enron stock. Sometimes good people suffer terribly for not doing their homework. ANY financial publication above the fifth grade level warns against any path other than diversification of investments. It would not have required a towering intellect to do a little financial research and act accordingly.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Plato says on Jan 18, 2008, 22:10:

Slguy,

On all else - fine. You wrote:

"I'm just saying that for a variety of reasons, today they are anochronistic, except of course, from the perspective of those who rake in salaries completely disproportionate to their skills. Benefits that from my point of view are outdated and often counterproductive."

High union wages are a function of (1) length of service (2) cost of living increases (3) job risk injury (worker's compensation rates reflect this too according to job class) (4) any other pay determinants to reflect increased expertise in the job.

Moreover, recall that collective bargaining agreements are between labor and MANAGEMENT. Yes, management agrees to the terms of the contract which is typically in force for 3 years. Slguy, it is disegenous to begrudge union workers' high wages no matter their skill level. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the lack of work ethic issue, but at the end of the day, management agreed to their wages.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 22:12:

like management has the ability to take any other course, when they're shut down for months by a strike.

I guess they kinda deserve each other huh? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

john_stark says on Jan 18, 2008, 22:13:

"Shouldn't the left be happy that poor chinese and indians are getting jobs?"

Fuck 'em!

john_stark says on Jan 18, 2008, 22:14:

Excellent article, Waterdawg. I have a lot of respect for the Indians that I work with and count several among them as good friends. Among the regular employees, I am definitely one of the Indians' favorites.

Man Tequila says on Jan 18, 2008, 23:13:

I found Waterdawg's article a little bit too rah-rah, but the basic premises seem okay. America is falling behind in innovation, and for the reasons discussed above.

gringoloid says on Jan 19, 2008, 06:07:

as soon as the north american union is created in the next three years, most unions will become relics of the past.