binazir bhutto dead....

slguy says on Dec 27, 2007, 07:00:

Douglas, I was shocked when I saw the first reports this morning. Apparently the guy shot her, then blew himself up, just for good measure.

I'm afraid you're correct. It's only a matter of time before one of these crazy fokin ragheads gets his itchy finger on a trigger somewhere. I just hope the blast is over there, not in Toledo.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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dwmte7 says on Dec 27, 2007, 07:37:

guy...years ago in hollywood, on sunset blvd near la cienega, someone rented the biggest billboard in los angeles county and all it said in ten foot letters was, "the first blast, is the last". don't make much never mind where it's located, this time, if some nut pushes the launch button, thinking it's the lunch botton, then someone in the next country is gonna make the same mistake...it'll be more like a chain reaction. china, korea, russia, pakistan, india....THANKS TO GOD, WE'RE ON THIS SIDE OF THE PLANET.

it ain't gonna be funny and we wont be posting with a smile. rather we'll have our head between our legs, kissin our ass goodby....

dwmte

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 27, 2007, 09:17:

I was in shock when I saw the news and I am very saddened to see how political interests (because I think it was more political than religious) co opt the desire of an entire nation to be truly democratic. I think Mrs. Bhutto is without any doubt the person of the year, her courage and fearlessness were totally admirable. May she rest in peace.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 27, 2007, 14:04:

If any good can come of this is that Musharraf, whose brother lives in Chicago, can bring out the heavy artillery and reign down on the Islamic militants in the border towns of Pakistan.

They are repsonsible for previous attempts on Bhuttos life, they got her this time. It's payback time!!

In the past, Musharraf hasn't been able to come down hard on the Islamic tribal extremist because it would look like he is a puppet for the US, at least that's the way the extremist would exploit it.

Now, with the assassination of the very popular Bhutto, and with the world outraged, it is time to bring down the wrath of the Pakistani army on these freakin' extremist!!!

Kill 'em ALL, let GOD sort 'em out!!!

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 27, 2007, 15:19:

It's kill'em all, let gods sort them out, if you're not a Christian....
I've been reading in local newspapers that it's this Mushharraf himself who is behind the assassination. It's a dangerous occupation for a woman to be a politician in certain countries.....

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 27, 2007, 17:11:

I HIGHLY DOUBT Musharaff is personally behind it, he's got enough problems holding Pakistan together.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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slguy says on Dec 27, 2007, 17:56:

Well- I'm not a Christian, by any defintion that anyone would relate to, not that christianity is necessarily germain to the question ;) - but I'm not sure even god could sort this mess out.

Something smells about this assasination- smells really foul. The reports I read said that there were large numbers of various government security forces present at the rally. How did this armed guy, swathed in explosives, get close enough to her to shoot her, with all this security present?

I'm not blaming Musharaf by any means- I don't know enough about the scenario to point fingers at anyone - but I know a rancid smell when it wafts thru my nostrils....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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christobeldawg says on Dec 27, 2007, 21:21:

all I can say is that the assasination of this Harvard educated woman[as so many 3rd world country leaders seem to be, as in Uribe--and please don't get into the which countries are 3rd world argument, for now] is likely the most important worldwide event of the year, as far as the earth shattering ramifications, and with this war we are already in with Muslim extremists. These things happen, obviously, but this one is going to really shake things up. Sorry for her loss, though she realized this was likely to happen if she stayed in the game, which she did not need to, but chose to.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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scotty says on Dec 27, 2007, 22:36:

what a mess, but why am i not surprised.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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christobeldawg says on Dec 27, 2007, 22:56:

she was the first Muslim world democratically elected female President, and had a good chance in coming back with the same but more advanced agenda, and yet, has now been extinguished.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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scotty says on Dec 28, 2007, 01:09:

its sad and a shame but do you really expect anything else in that part of the world. she was loved by many but also had many enemies. i blame the pakastan goverment, i blame al quida and i blame the western goverments (US, Englnad, France and others) for not giving this woman adequate protection.
The FBI ans CIA should have assisted this woman with protection.
and lastly i blame her for walking into the lions den.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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christobeldawg says on Dec 28, 2007, 01:22:

scotty she knew the danger but did this out of love for her people, as they needed her. don't blame her for that. I agree, she should have been better protected, and could have been

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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slguy says on Dec 28, 2007, 02:09:

I beg your pardon? When did it become the FBI and/or CIA's job to protect foreign politicians?

The first day she returned to her country, she dodged a major bullet. She knew EXACTLY what the risks are.

I'll be damned if I can figure out on what basis we have any business protecting her.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 28, 2007, 03:13:

Slguy, I think she was urged by the US to go back to Pakistan and the US govt put a lot of pressure on Musharraf to let her back in and share power. The West has been growing increasingly concerned about Musharraf and brought this moderate woman in, perhaps to destabilize Musharraf's dictatorship. If that is so, they should have given her more guarantees, such as security... But then again I do not know what really happened, I am just repeating what I read on the Guardian.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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dwmte7 says on Dec 28, 2007, 08:13:

i lean towards thinking it was an inside job. as she was surrounded by security, literally, and a chap walks up with a machine gun, 50# of explosive strapped on him, first shoots her then detonates the explosives. how could "security" have missed him?

dwmte

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 28, 2007, 13:20:

As reports continue to pour in... it's looking more like another typical suicide bomber, who did not kill her with a gun or a bomb. She banged her head hard against the window and the blast shocked the bomb proof vehicle she was in.. the armored vehicle looks like it did its job. They got lucky.

Slguy, agree with Cerealkiller, this was Condolezza Rice's project. The US went to Brunai and convinced her to go back to Pakistan.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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slguy says on Dec 28, 2007, 14:38:

If in fact we urged her to return, then I agree wholeheartedly. I still don't see how the US could provide for her security in Pakistan, though- absent Blackwater, et al. Pakistanis would raise holy hell about US forces protecting her.

And in that snakepit, how secure is anyone, really - CIA, FBI or anyone excpet those trgger-happy mercernaries?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Plato says on Dec 28, 2007, 16:33:

WSJ reported today that immediately after the assassination, fire trucks hosed down the crime scene so that there is practically no forensic evidence. There is something fishy about all this.


I am very sorry about Binazir Bhutto's demise.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 28, 2007, 16:44:

There is no reason to be "very sorry about Binazir Butto's demise." She knew what she was getting into by returning to the snakepit. And the other many innocent bystanders where probably more innocent then she about many things. She was no angel. Innocent people get killed everyday, unfortunetly

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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scotty says on Dec 28, 2007, 21:27:

CK is exactly right, she was urged by the US goverment to return to Pakastan, therfore they should have furnished some protection for her, also she asked the US goverment for protection.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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vladimiro says on Dec 28, 2007, 23:10:

Did you know that Benazi Bhutto assasinated her own brother back when she was Prime Minister ?

"My father was Benazir's younger brother. To this day, her role in his assassination has never been adequately answered, although the tribunal convened after his death under the leadership of three respected judges concluded that it could not have taken place without approval from a "much higher" political authority."

"Aunt Benazir killed my father" By Fatima Bhutto (Benazir's niece)

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-bhutto14nov14,...

She was shoehorned into Pakistan by the US government in an attempt to save the Pakistani dictatorship. With the power sharing aggreement her supporters would have broadened Musharef's popular base.

The US media portrays her as a democratic opposition, which points to why its important not to pay attention to US media coverage of foriegn affairs - for Pakistani affairs see Pakistani sources.

The true democratic opposition is from the country's expanding middle class, lawyers, and judges. But since they were threatening the US-backed pro-US Dictatorship in Pakistan, Bhutto was brought back by the US it.

Senator Arland Specter was in Pakistan during the assassination working on putting down democratic forces and saving the pro-US dictatorship.

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scotty says on Dec 29, 2007, 00:00:

uhhh..ok to some of what you said.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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vladimiro says on Dec 29, 2007, 11:27:

During the first attempt against her, Bhutto must have felt a familiar and perhaps guilty thrill of horror as she saw the lights go out in Karachi....

Because the streets lights were all turned off just before the first attempt against her which is exactly what happened when her brother was assassinated.

From the article above:

"My father was a member of Parliament and a vocal critic of his sister's politics. He was killed outside our home in 1996 in a carefully planned police assassination while she was prime minister. There were 70 to 100 policemen at the scene, all the streetlights had been shut off and the roads were cordoned off. Six men were killed with my father. They were shot at point-blank range, suffered multiple bullet wounds and were left to bleed on the streets."

And Benazir after her first assassination attempt

"Ms. Bhutto said that there were circumstances about the attack that needed to be investigated, particularly why streetlights along her motorcade route were not working, forcing her guards to use floodlights to search the crowd for threats."

http://voanews.com/english/archive/2007-10/2007-10-19-voa18.cfm?CFID=1...

If interested, below are a couple Pakistani sources:

"All Things Pakistan" - influential blog with discussion forums in English
http://pakistaniat.com/

A hostile Karachi blogger:
http://snowysensation.wordpress.com/2007/10/21/democracy-hahah/

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Plato says on Dec 29, 2007, 13:38:

Medellin Traveler wrote:

"There is no reason to be "very sorry about Binazir Butto's demise." She knew what she was getting into by returning to the snakepit. And the other many innocent bystanders where probably more innocent then she about many things. She was no angel. Innocent people get killed everyday, unfortunetly"

Of course there is reason to be sorry for Binazir Butto's demise: now what of political situation in Pakistan now? What of it's impact on the rest of the world? ???

How about more innocents being killed if Islamic extremists take over?

What about the inncocents that will die to defend whatever spark of democracy Butto was trying to accomplish?

I know she wasn't perfect, but Pakistan democracy had a real chance with her.

There's lots to grieve here, not only Butto's demise, but of the demise of democracy in Pakistan and all the deaths of the innocents that will try to preserve it.


Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 29, 2007, 14:10:

Plato -

You paint a beautiful picture about democracy in Pakistan, I chocked up for a minute. Until, I remember that the US was 100% involved in the whole sham disguised as "democracy.in Pakistan." What a JOKE! How can anyone call that DEMOCRACY?!

If you look at her history and background and accomplishments, she was all about self-promotion and an oppurtunist more than a person who truly wanted to see democracy brought to Pakistan.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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Plato says on Dec 29, 2007, 20:09:

Medellín Traveler:

I’m glad that the slim prospect of democracy in Pakistan is such a tearjerker for you. So what of Bhutto’s past? I agree it was questionable. More importantly, however, it is what she represented to the people of her party, Pakistan People's Party (PPP), and the world: a force for democracy in that country.

Pakistanis say Musharraf was behind the assassination. This morning went I went to buy my morning newspapers, the Pakistani owner of the shop was tremendously upset to know that democracy will once again be delayed unless the PPP stands firm against Musharraf and Islamic extremism. Medellín Traveler, you may not be aware of this but Pakistan’s future affects us all – because they have nuclear bombs – which was already said in this thread.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 30, 2007, 04:45:

I say if democracy is going to happen in Pakistan, let it come from within. We don't need to get invloved. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look what happened in Iraq.We are trying to force our ways onto other nations. What are our true motiviations? World peace, or world domination? How come the US is not in Darfur putting an end to genocide? There's no OIL, also nothing to gain from spreading democracy there.

Bush's administration is more of a threat to the world then any other country in the history of the world.

China has awoken and Russia is back with a message to the world, the US is in trouble. And it has nothing to do with NUKES!

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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Plato says on Dec 30, 2007, 08:46:

Medellín Traveler:

Ditto. But nothing like a nice straw man argument to throw off a point. Especially when it comes to ranting about the 2nd Bush administration. So, the US acts upons its interests. What else is new? You're preaching to the choir Medellín. Check out Charlie Wilson's War with Tom Hanks and Julia Roberts. It makes the point we all agree on.

Now - back to the issue. Bhutto was indeed important regardless and she could have said "no" on exposing herself lke that. Also, kudos to her party, the Pakistan People's Party (PPP). Like Venezuela, Pakistan presents us and the world with another cliff hanger.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Dec 30, 2007, 08:55:

Oh yes, I think nukes in the hands of Islamic extremists may have some bearing in all this,
but that's just my 2 cents opinion - a long shot in fact.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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vladimiro says on Dec 30, 2007, 10:23:

It should be noted that the US shoehorned Bhutto back into Pakistan under a power sharing aggreement with Musharef that was designed to expand his popular base and save the dictatorship.

The US is working with Musharef to quell the democratic forces from the country's growing middle class and judiciary.

Bhutto is ridiculously portrayed as a democratic oppossition in the US-centric press. The assassination is a blow to the American's rickity plot to save a US-backed Dictator.

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 30, 2007, 10:25:

Charlie Wilson's War was a very good movie. I saw it yesterday, lots of great laughs! Also, great performances by Hanks, Roberts and Hoffman.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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gringoloid says on Dec 30, 2007, 10:46:

slguy says: "Something smells about this assasination- smells really foul."

sl, be careful, they'll label you a conspiracy therorist!

I happen to like the label myself, though. A conspiracy theorist is a person who does not accept the govt version of events.

I'm waiting for some buddies to tell me what happened before i comment. I'll tell you right now, no one is going to believe me.

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slguy says on Dec 30, 2007, 11:40:

Know what the fallacy in the "promote democracy" philosophy is? While I am american to my core, and would never back anything that dilutes the value of our democracy, the simple fact is - democracy only works with an electorate that is literate enough, and an open enough media. Anyone who believes democracy is "THE" solution in every country just hasn't spent enough time in places like Haiti, or Cote de'Ivoire, or for that matter, Venezuela. Tyranny by the masses can be very real.

For example, the haitian people have not had a standard of life anywhere NEAR the standards they had prior to showing Duvalier the door. The showed him the door because they believed that democracy was more important than eating, and having potable water to drink, and electricity. I'm not certain how many of them still feel the value of democracy that they once did. There's a lot to be said for benevolent dictatorship, in many countries around the world...

I get a little tired of american politicians waving the democracy banner - especially when it's only a cover for the real goals.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Plato says on Dec 30, 2007, 12:13:

"the simple fact is - democracy only works with an electorate that is literate enough, and an open enough media. "

Very keen Slguy. These are indeed the essential ingredients for democracy to work.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Dec 30, 2007, 12:16:

Hey, PBH has been real slow the past few weeks. Is this just me or what? This thread is the only one of interest lately for me. The other site is just too nutty for me (surprise!).

(Sorry Douglas, didn't want to make a new thread on this.)

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 30, 2007, 14:20:

It's the holidays! Which I try to avoid at all cost!

I have my books, movies,internet, and enjoy listening to http://www.fm.lopaisa.com/ on the net while relaxing at home, but I could use a drink or two with some conversation at a local pub. I can't wait to see "There Will Be Blood!"

Back to the topic...

Bilawal Bhutto for prime minister, really?

The future of Pakistan is in TROUBLE!

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 31, 2007, 00:34:

Plato, I agree; FTZ has been crazy lately, but perhaps "Politics and War" would have some threads that interest you?

Gringoloid, I know you like conspiracy theories. It's a hobby of yours, if I'm not mistaken. We have, however, people here who scream "conspiracy!!!" every time something happens. Without really even bothering to read through, much less to think.

I

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 31, 2007, 20:37:

I don't know what's more interesting Bhutto's death or The Hostage Exchange in Colombia?

Probe of Bhutto's death called 'bizarre'
By Kim Barker | Tribune foreign correspondent
12:51 PM CST, December 31, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - As calls for an international investigation into the assassination of opposition leader Benazir Bhutto increase, new details are emerging that suggest that the truth behind her death will be very difficult to uncover.

Within an hour of the attack that killed Bhutto last Thursday, the crime scene in Rawalpindi was cordoned off but washed down with fire hoses. A newly released video of the attack directly contradicts the government's account of Bhutto's death, which was released about 26 hours after she was killed. No autopsy was performed, though the procedure is required in such controversial cases. Witnesses from her political party say they still have not been interviewed. Also, the doctors who tried to revive her are all in hiding.

Athar Minallah, a senior lawyer and board member of the medical group that includes Rawalpindi General Hospital, met with those doctors on Saturday. He said they told him they had asked Rawalpindi police to arrange for experts to conduct a post-mortem examination but were rebuffed. Minallah said the doctors were forced to submit their clinical notes as the final report on Bhutto's death.

"Benazir's killing wasn't as shocking as is the manner in which the whole matter is being handled," Minallah said. "It is simply bizarre. It's unbelievable. I don't have the words."

continued... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-pakistan_barker_01j...

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

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vladimiro says on Jan 1, 2008, 09:50:

A mere suicide bombing would apparently be easier to reconcile with the government's allegation that a jihadi group was behind the assassination. PPP leaders suspect that Bhutto's bullet wounds might point back to involvement by Musharraf's security forces (did he use a standard police or army firearm?).

Musharef is at risk of becoming the Shah of Iran an American Dictator hated by his own people and driven from power.

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vladimiro says on Jan 1, 2008, 10:00:

The fact that the physicians had their lawyer speak out about their having been coerced by the military indicates to me that they do not think that Musharraf is likely to continue in office. In a country like Pakistan they would have otherwise kept quite.

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Plato says on Jan 3, 2008, 18:32:

Just to stir the pot a bit . . . .



Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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