A World Without America

kalder says on Feb 9, 2009, 13:23:

America, like any other political entity, should be subject to scrutiny, criticism and (if necessary) censure.

But if you think it's a greater evil than fascism, Nazism, communism, Maoism, Baathism, Islamism, Russian imperialism, African warlordism, Euro-jacobinism, international terrorism (or any other murderous ideology that'd like to take its place as the world's dominant power) you really are very stupid indeed...

As for me, I'll take a cheeseburger over the bowl of rice anyday.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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pobrecito says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:35:

No mas Tasco66 !

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dwmte7 says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:43:

best post yet, kalder............thank you very much from me an a lot of american friends.

douglas

patriarch

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pobrecito says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:43:

No mas Tasco66 !

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dwmte7 says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:46:

i'm curious pobre...do you shit where you sleep? i usually avoid such base vulgarity, but in this instance i was prompted from deep within myself to be so blunt.

patriarch

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pobrecito says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:49:

You can, many americans are as vulgar as the video posted by Kalder.
You continue to think you are the center of the world.

No mas Tasco66 !

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aztec says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:51:

Thank you kalder!

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aztec says on Feb 9, 2009, 14:54:

Who is this S.O.B. pobrecito?

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pobrecito says on Feb 9, 2009, 15:01:

I am not your son.

No mas Tasco66 !

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 9, 2009, 15:57:

billyb says on Feb 9, 2009, 19:14:

Excellent post Kalder. I guess one can only say to those "morons' , be careful what you wish for.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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pobrecito says on Feb 9, 2009, 23:04:

The democratic huskie calls to censorship but said nothing when tasco, billyb and others expressed their hate against French people. Correct, the Americans are the best ! And some cannot imagine that millions of deaths could have been avoided if they were not so powerful.

I said nothing else about USA politics than some Americans themselves said.

But they must be communist, shit, terrorists.

Remember : a few months ago your little yankee friend tasco posted several times about Obama, the terrorist.

I like the Americans, but those who are for peace, for democracy, who write beautiful books (I read many American authors). Not the Bush, Rambo, Church of Scientology kind.

No mas Tasco66 !

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tasco66 says on Feb 10, 2009, 04:07:

I posted about Bill Ayers the terrorist, Achmed, but nice try...

I guess that's the type of American that you like.

You need to change your signature to what you said previously: "Attacking the USA is the most important thing". That would describe you best.

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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pobrecito says on Feb 10, 2009, 04:17:

Tasco, how did you understand that you are not from the americans I like ?
You make progress every day.

No mas Tasco66 !

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tasco66 says on Feb 10, 2009, 04:39:

Achmed, what makes you think that I am an American?

As usual you have no clue about me or just about anything…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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billyb says on Feb 10, 2009, 06:15:

"billyb and others expressed their hate against French people."

I never express my hate for frenchies, not even you mon frere, i only like to ridicule you, but it's oh so easy.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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turnmeon (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 10, 2009, 06:45:

turnmeon (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 10, 2009, 06:50:

tasco66 says on Feb 10, 2009, 06:55:

Without America Cassini would be cleaning toilets for Obersturmführers...jajajaja

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 10, 2009, 08:36:

tasco66 says on Feb 10, 2009, 09:04:

ColombianoGringo, please post the link/discussion where you say I claimed to be American, because I do not know what you are referring to.

How would you call the avatar of pobrecito? Have you got a better name for it than me?

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 10, 2009, 09:17:

Tasco, In rereading the old thread, you only implied that you used to live in the US.

http://poorbuthappy.com/yourthing/post/in-mexicos-drug-war-the-enemy-i...

As far as pobrecito. I still had his old avatar cached. I liked Snoopy better.

I'm so hip, I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.

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tasco66 says on Feb 10, 2009, 09:28:

CG thanks for coming clean on that claim...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Lcacique says on Feb 10, 2009, 13:13:

turnmeon: What in the heck are you talking about when you mention the discovery of America 500 years ago. That is like me traveling to California and saying that I discovered it. It makes absolutely no sense. And this "discovery" that you talk about was a massacre of civilizations at worst and an enslavement of civilizations at best. Not much to celebrate there in my view.

huskie: "I love France very much, it is one of the most beautiful countries in the world. I have never said I hate France. It is the attitude of some people on this forum that agravates me, the fact of so much hate towards the US!!! Sometimes is very hard to admit that governments and politics destroy the image of a country and it's people, whether is the US, Colombia, France, etc."

My sentiments exactly. Too often people make huge generalizations about countries based on the words or actions of an individual or a group within those countries. What travel has taught me, is that many people throughout the world are able to separate US citizens from the government that acts in their name. I meet foreigners all of the time who say that they have no problem with "Americans," admitting that they enjoy and admire them; however, they are quick to point out that the US government all too often acts in a way that does not match the ideals that make the US so wonderful. Essentially, I feel the same way...not only about my country, but about others. The majority of people in the world are good and seek to co-exist peacefully (clearly there are circumstances that make this difficult). I know that terrorists in the Middle East do not represent the entire population. I know that the FARC and/or paramilitary organizations do not represent the people of Colombia. I know that Chavez does not represent the entire population of Venezuela.

tomtom: I would argue that leading US boys and girls deceitfully into an unjust war is bashing the US. I would argue that advocating the use of torture is anti-US and implementing it is a form of bashing the US. I would argue that ignoring a citizens right to privacy is bashing the US. I would argue that a person is bashing the US when they refer to specific regions as "the real [US]," implying that other regions are something other than real. I would argue that calling someone unpatriotic because they question a leaders decision to go to war (and remember, those people were correct to do so) is anti-US. I am sure that you do not accept my interpretation of assault on the US; however, will you even bother to use your own interpretation now that the White House is inhabited by a Democrat? Are all Conservatives bashing the US currently?

And why is it always necessary to point to worse governments or leaders in order to support ones own? Wow, Bush is better than Stalin. Yippee!!! As long as the US government is not as murderous as Hitler, everything is peachy. That is nice to know. Way to set the bar real nice and high guys. I guess we can safely kill thousands more Iraqi civilians without any concern for it damaging our reputation in the world. And who knows how many victims of torture there are, but certainly not as many as in Chile under Pinochet. And even if there were, we could point to some other bastard that was far worse than Pinochet to wash our hands. God bless evil tyrants, dictators and terrorists for making the inexcusable actions of our government more tolerable.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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goin_south says on Feb 10, 2009, 18:08:

still... too many people here, have too much free time on their hands and need to get a second and third job, in order to help out the economy... that of their family's if not, ... well... I'm sure the pbh forum members could save the world.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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turnmeon (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 10, 2009, 18:37:

goin_south says on Feb 10, 2009, 19:11:

migration and imperialism.... SIEMPRE!

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 10, 2009, 23:23:

turnmeon: I am sorry, but the term has always annoyed me when used in such a manner. You are right, it is common. It just rubs me the wrong way. I apologize for the tone of my statement. I did not mean to imply that - by using the phrase - you condone the atrocities that were committed in the region. I do, however, disagree that it was necessary for the Spaniards to "discover" America for us to be here.

well g_s, hardly anyone posts as often as you my friend.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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goin_south says on Feb 11, 2009, 01:42:

darloup,...and, many others,... mas recentamente

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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dwmte7 says on Feb 11, 2009, 05:50:

how about, 'low and behold, me hardies, a new world!"

patriarch

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kalder says on Feb 11, 2009, 09:21:

One of my main criticisms of the States is that it went out of its way to hasten the collapse of the British Empire. Peremptorily calling in the tab for Lend-Lease and betraying us over Suez bankrupted us financially and militarily.

If someone was going to takeover as 'World's Policeman', I'm glad it was you Yanks. Very glad indeed. But the planet would be a whole lot safer if, instead of insisting on being the only patrolman on the block, you'd taken us on as genuine partners (not just that meretricious 'Special Relationship' nonsense).

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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dwmte7 says on Feb 12, 2009, 12:59:

that's my man kalder! top of the lot.

patriarch

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goin_south says on Feb 12, 2009, 14:19:

enjoy, kalder.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 12, 2009, 15:06:

God Bless America:

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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goin_south says on Feb 12, 2009, 17:07:

god bless Lcq

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 12, 2009, 17:51:

That is cute. You counter the destruction of a city filled with civilians by way of a nuclear weapon with a strategic attack on military installations and ships that resulted in a couple thousand deaths (roughly 70 civilian deaths). Don't get me wrong, I do not condone the attack on Pearl Harbor, but it seems trivial in comparison to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's not surprising that you would liken the two.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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goin_south says on Feb 12, 2009, 19:08:

why is it not surprising?

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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billyb says on Feb 12, 2009, 19:52:

LC, how many more people do you think would have died, both civilian and military japanese, but more importantly, american and british (and allied) soldiers, had those bombs not ended the war when they did? The moral of the story is if you don't want the shit bombed out of you, don't carry out sneak attacks on countries capable of doing so.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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goin_south says on Feb 12, 2009, 21:18:

jeeeeeze.. fokn thanks Billy! for some help!
It gets real frustrating with some of the twisted leftist dovish bs, turn another cheek, hit me again, take another punch at me again while I stand here taking it,...... thinking here, with some people.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 12, 2009, 23:33:

g-S: Because you see the world through red, white, and blue tinted glasses. Also, I have no idea why you are blessing me with respect to the Pearl Harbor Attack. Maybe I should bless you personally and follow it up with a video of the KKK.

Finally, I never said anything about it being wrong to go to war with Japan, so you can cut it with the dove bs and your typical whining about leftists (something that has nothing to do with this debate). You do need all of the help you can get, but I am not sure that billy really delivered for you.

billyb: Thank you. You made an excellent point billyb in arguing that the lives of American and British soldiers are more important than the lives of others. If that is your belief, then you won the argument. The lives of men, women and children from other cultures - regardless of who they are - are not as important as the lives of our soldiers; therefore, who really cares how many of them you have to kill in order to save a few of our soldiers?

First, given the release of official documents on the subject matter, it is doubtful that the Japanese attack could be defined as a sneak attack. It appears that the US had prior knowledge, possibly using the event as a means to involve itself in the war.

Second, I do not agree that these bombings ended the war in some magical way that justifies their use. In fact, I do not even agree that they ended the war. General Dwight D. Eisenhower disagreed with the need to drop them because he felt Japan was already defeated and he argued that their "employment was...no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." General Douglas MacArthur, Admiral William Leahy, and other high-ranking military officers directly involved in the Pacific all agreed that the action was completely unnecessary from a militaristic point of view.

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion , and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.

Even if a person disagreed with the arguments above and could rationalize Hiroshima, Nagasaki was ABSOLUTELY unnecessary.

In my mind, given that it specifically targeted a large population of innocent civilians - not only those who died in the initial blasts but those who died decades later as a result of cancer and/or other health problems related to the bombings - I would define it as a terrorist act.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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pobrecito says on Feb 13, 2009, 03:21:

I agree with Lcacique and I say more:
The atomic bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not necessary to win the war.
They were launched because:
- it was an opportunity to test them
- the USA could claim to the face of the world they were the mightiest
- it was a warning for USSR

No mas Tasco66 !

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 04:21:

"The atomic bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not necessary to win the war."

They were. To defeat a psychotic, death-cult regime whose atrocities in Nanking surpassed those of the Nazis. The price of conventional military methods for the taking of 'Fortress Japan' would have been an astronomical amount of Allied lives. It wasn't worth one. The bombs had to be dropped.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 04:31:

pobrecito's pavlovian defence of terror and tyrants always puts me in mind of those French communists who fell over themselves to collaborate with the Nazis. The need to feel swept up in an irrational, hysterical, revolutionary fervour is paramount. And it really doesn't matter which thug or madman is supplying the fix...

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 04:36:

The other bloke's just a hippy.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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goin_south says on Feb 13, 2009, 04:45:

If "Global" means: "..see the world through red, white, and blue tinted glasses..", then you are right, Lqc....
and, to even put my name in the same sentence with kkk, someone is outta their fokn mind.

make it a great day, bro!

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Feb 13, 2009, 05:09:

""I would define it as a terrorist act.""
terrorist acts are likely happening in the house next door, too. Unfortunately.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 05:56:

"General Dwight D. Eisenhower disagreed with the need to drop them because he felt Japan was already defeated "

They were defeated in dozens of battles, but they still fought fanatically for every inch and almost to the last man. And this was for some little rock outcroppings in the Pacific that meant nothing to them. And you are trying to argue that they would just lay down and let the allies just walk in into their HOME islands? You have to be kidding LC.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 06:00:

"I agree with Lcacique and I say more:"

I might agree with LC also, maybe the US did drop the bomb on the wrong country

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Feb 13, 2009, 06:13:

"through the yuccas and the cactus, i will watch the fellows practice, droppin bomgs through the clean desert breeze.

i will have on my sombrero and of course i'll wear a pair-o, levis over my lead bvd's."

patriarch

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 06:28:

Doug, make sure your levis don't have rivets in 'em, those suckers can get awful hot in a nucuulear (my homage to bushie) blast.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Feb 13, 2009, 07:24:

when we were kids on the farm growin up in central california....you could actually see the early morning glow in the eastern sky when they'ld light up one of those beauties. i mean really visible. about a 5 or 6 second flash and glow. and they did that for years before they went to all underground testing.

patriarch

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pobrecito says on Feb 13, 2009, 08:12:

Kalder you went down to the same low level as tasco and billyb, in the gutter.
And is there a difference between a man who apologizes the use of atomic bomb against civilians and the nazis who killed civilians with Zyklon ? There is none.

It is remarkable how some people here try to "revise" the history. Is it because they have many far-rightist skinheads and hooligans in their country ?

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on Feb 13, 2009, 08:19:

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on Feb 13, 2009, 08:22:

No mas Tasco66 !

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 08:24:

Very well then Pobrecito, how do you suggest the Allies should have stopped Imperial Japan's campaign of mass murder, enslavement and rape?

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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pobrecito says on Feb 13, 2009, 08:26:

No mas Tasco66 !

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dwmte7 says on Feb 13, 2009, 11:51:

i liked it when the japanese university boat was sailing off shore in hawaii and was hit by a us naval ship. they were actually thinking of demanding restitution....right. off pearl harbor. some lousy superficial damage to their boat.

patriarch

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Lcacique says on Feb 13, 2009, 12:00:

g_s: You want to act all surprised and upset about me saying that maybe I should write God bless you followed by a video of the KKK, yet you actually wrote God bless Lcq and followed it with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Who is out of their mind? Me? Maybe so, but at least I have a mind to be out of...You are unable to recognize the idiocy of your own action: Blessing me and then playing a video of the Pearl Harbor attack. No, that is not crazy. And then, when I mention that as a result of your absurd association that I should think of making one also...you call me crazy. Wake up.


billyb: "They were defeated in dozens of battles, but they still fought fanatically for every inch and almost to the last man. And this was for some little rock outcroppings in the Pacific that meant nothing to them. And you are trying to argue that they would just lay down and let the allies just walk in into their HOME islands? You have to be kidding LC.

I am not arguing that they would just lay down their arms and welcome us into their homelands. I am agreeing with high-ranking officials - several of whom were directly involved in the Pacific - that Japan was already defeated. You want to disagree with the very people who had the greatest knowledge of the situation, fine.

It is, however, kind of you and kalder to openly admit that you are absolutely supportive of killing countless innocent civilians as opposed to actually fighting enemy combatants. That says a ton about your character. Don't fight soldiers. Target large numbers of defenseless civilians.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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dwmte7 says on Feb 13, 2009, 13:14:

well, it worked.

patriarch

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Lcacique says on Feb 13, 2009, 13:40:

Wow, dwmte7. That is not the kind of response that I have come to expect from you. It worked. Again, I tend to agree with the primary actors who had first hand knowledge of the situation, a front row seat if you will, who argue that the bombs are not what won the war...that they were unnecessary. But, like I said, even if you feel that the first was justified, it is extremely difficult to make an argument for the second. Personally, I recognize them for what they were: criminal acts of terrorism.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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dwmte7 says on Feb 13, 2009, 14:03:

there's much in what you say and subscribe to, cacique. the bombs were hyper-tragedies.

but if we examine japans century of terrorism and enslavement they ended up being the final answer to end that reign of terror. and as i said, it worked. it was over and finished in a fortnight.

by the way, i'm a war baby, and i was named after gen. douglas wayne mcarthur...douglas wayne martin...at the u.s. navel hospital in vallejo calif.

patriarch

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goin_south says on Feb 13, 2009, 15:04:

I didn't call anyone 'crazy', but if that's what they're interpreting.. then it must be so.
Now, go get another job.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Feb 13, 2009, 15:05:

"i was named after gen. douglas wayne mcarthur"
Do you have to pay royalties of some sort, on the use of the name?

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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dwmte7 says on Feb 13, 2009, 15:12:

just an aside, brother. no body's hit me up yet.

how's the new squeeze? you goin there or is she comin here? and the one you're twotiming how's that going? jeje?

patriarch

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 15:47:

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Lcacique says on Feb 13, 2009, 15:56:

I appreciate your opinion; however, respectfully disagree that they were necessary. Again, I agree with the actual actors in the war who felt that Japan was essentially defeated. Not only were the blockades working, but the Japanese were being completely destroyed in Manchuria by Soviet forces. Besides, if the situation was reversed...nobody here would be arguing that Japan was justified.

kalder: The atrocities committed at Nanking were horrific, not to mention those committed in the approach to Nanking. You will get no argument from me there; however, you are totally warped if you think that Nanking surpasses the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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goin_south says on Feb 13, 2009, 15:58:

you are totally warped ??

re: no personal attacks...even when talking about war! (pun, intended)

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 16:54:

Yes, the Rape of Nanking and the horrors of the Nazi dystopia were of such utter radical evil, it probably was pointlessly rhetorical of me to measure one against the other (yet seeing as the mass sexual torture of the innocent was an exclusively Japanese practice, perhaps I could be forgiven my original remark).

But to describe me as being "totally warped" (what is it with you and the teen-speak?) on the strength of the above, suggests you either don't know your history or you've succumbed to an unfortunate lapse of manners.

Neither of which, as I'm sure you can appreciate, are particularly groovy. Can you dig?

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Feb 13, 2009, 17:17:

It'd take more than that 'Battle of New Orleans' malarkey to rattle the phlegmatic Brits g.s.

Point of fact, it got to #2 in the UK charts in 1959.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Lcacique says on Feb 13, 2009, 18:04:

Oh, I beg your forgiveness. I did not realize that you were the only one that was allowed to speak disparagingly about others. I should have expected that this would be the case, what with your higher-than-though attitude. Personally, the term hippy is not that offensive to me; however, given that you clearly have a very negative opinion of them, it is obvious that you meant it as a slight. I thoroughly enjoy chaps that throw mud and then complain about getting dirty. And let me remind you, it is also a lapse of manners to talk down to people and insinuate that they are childish and/or stupid. Can you dig?

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 18:30:

"Again, I agree with the actual actors in the war who felt that Japan was essentially defeated"

LC, you keep mentioning this, but can you tell us what percentage of the "actual actors" believe it was better to get hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers killed as opposed to dropping the bomb? Was it 100%, 70%, 20% or, more likely, less than 5%? And you also keep mentioning that Japan was "militarily defeated". Nobody disputes that, except the Japanese military command, whose credo of Bushido forbade them from surrendering and without those bombs they would not have, as amply evidenced in those dozens of battles where they were "militarily defeated", yet fought to almost the last man.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 18:31:

GL. maybe they should have used it on Russia, after testing it on France ;)

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 19:08:

"lets not forget the bombing of dresden holocaust as well, Feb 15, 1945."

The Nazis, like the Imperial Japanese, found out the hard way that when you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 19:29:

I know it wasn't, Churchill wanted some revenge, but that is not my point, which is, basically, that what goes around comes around. Downtown London and its civilians were not military targets either. Maybe the allies should have heeded Patton and kept going against the red army ( I believe Winnie was all for that, but Ike and the Americans had a somewhat less disdainful regard for Stalin and the reds than did Churchill).

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 20:03:

"it was england and france that declared war against germany, not the other way around.'

That's right, and Germany was just an innocent bystander. But what I mean is that they sowed the wind by shamelessly killing innocent civilians and bombing cities indiscriminately.

"a debatable question as i realize there is no answer: if the US went into russia, would they have won?'

With or without nukes?

"patton also wanted to re-arm 2 divisions of the waffen SS for his venture into russia. he had a lot of respect for the german soldier."

I did hear about that, then again, the German soldier was one hell of a fighting machine. I know it makes little sense, but I always root for the Germans against the ruskies when watching WWII docs or movies.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 20:04:

"a very important 911 truther was aboard."

Wasn't one of the victims of the Buffalo crash a 911 widow? Ironic, no?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Lcacique says on Feb 13, 2009, 21:30:

"There is little point in attempting precisely to impute Japan's unconditional surrender to any one of the numerous causes which jointly and cumulatively were responsible for Japan's disaster. The time lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a more rapid and decisive determination of national policies. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion."

UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY, SUMMARY REPORT (Pacific War)
WASHINGTON, D.C., 1 JULY 1946, page 26.

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm

The report was carried out by the Army Air Force shortly after the war.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 21:39:

Even assuming that those are indeed correct findings (which I dispute), the people that made the decision in the midst of the greatest conflict in the history of humankind did not have the benefit, or the luxury, of hindsight enjoyed by a study conducted from the relative safety and infused by the conjecture that only a one year of separation from the actual events provides

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2009, 21:44:

I wish it had not been necessary and I wouldn't have danced in the streets when it happened, as the Japanese population certainly would have, had they had the bomb instead and had dropped it on, let's say Cincinnati, but I don't lose sleep over it either. BTW, have not been able to find the pinots you mentioned, but my local store will get an allocation of one of them this spring. I did try another Willamette pinot, different than the Cal coast ones, but it grew on me.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Lcacique says on Feb 13, 2009, 22:17:

Most scholars acknowledge that the viable alternatives were known at the time. But we will not get anywhere on this subject. I do not need to have scholars and high-ranking officers to support my view that the nukes were unnecessary and barbaric. To me, it is a given. Therefore, you will not be able to convince me of your argument just as I will not be able to convince you of mine. cheers...

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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pobrecito says on Feb 14, 2009, 02:22:

It has no sense to try to persuade billyb. He is always of bad faith and must be deaf and blind.
The same kind of fanatics than the extremist islamists and inquisitors.
And he thinks he has sense of humour !
Poor USA that drag this kind of brainwashed.

No mas Tasco66 !

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dwmte7 says on Feb 14, 2009, 04:31:

let's see now....have we all reached a conclusion?

would we have been justified to use battlefield 'tactical' nukes against the 12 known camps of ben ladin....(these tactical nukes have a three mile radius.)?

patriarch

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kalder says on Feb 14, 2009, 07:59:

"I thoroughly enjoy chaps..."

Well, I can't say I'm surprised.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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goin_south says on Feb 14, 2009, 08:14:

you guys read/listen... too much news ;)

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 14, 2009, 11:57:

Yes, I have reached a conclusion. The people that are pro-Nukes in Japan seem to believe that because the war ended there use was therefore justified. Of course, they cannot prove that the war would not have ended anyway as a result of starvation and lack of necessary supplies to continue the war, mass destruction via B-52 bombings, huge losses in Manchuria to the Soviets, and a growing number of officials who disapproved of continuing the war. Nor can they prove that these issues did not factor into Japan's decision to end the war, rather than it being solely the use of Nukes that brought about their decision. But all of this is irrelevant anyway. It is most important to deny all of those things and believe that the horrific dropping of Nukes on two cities was actually heroic because the US had no other options. The conclusion must be reached without any study or consideration of alternative views...simply agree that it worked. This convenient avoidance of questions and facts will allow us to continue feeling righteous instead of ashamed. Who wants to feel ashamed?

I am quite surprised that we have not followed this logic in other arenas. With our current war on terror, we cannot be sure who the terrorists are and when they will attack. We do accept - rightly or wrongly - that they will be from some region in the Middle East. Some of these cultures are extremely brutal to their own people. It seems that the best thing to do at this point would be to kill as many as possible before a terrorist strikes again. Given that we cannot be sure where the terrorists are I think we would be justified to destroy as many cities as we see fit. Of course, there will be arguments that it was unnecessary to kill so many innocent people. I mean, it seems rather perverse to punish those people who are direct victims of regimes; however, I think we can safely say that it will work and that we will not be attacked again if we kill them all. The most important thing is that our soldiers not die anymore in the region.

Why are you not surprised, kalder? Probably because gay men always think that straight men are homosexuals. They - or should I say you - often go to great lengths to believe this is so, accepting anything that will allow the dream to continue. My guess is that you have one of those popular SS fetishes, the strong attraction to that which you supposedly hate. I always thought your obsession with hippys was abnormal. Now, I know that you are simply a cheeky pooftah who is totally turned on by the idea of making it with a dirty hippy. Not to mention, you have been implying that I am a teen as of late. Well, sorry to destroy your evenings my pervy little wanker...I am not into males and I am not a hippy or a teen. Oh, by the way...Nice with the manners again.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 12:02:

"Of course, they cannot prove that the war would not have ended anyway as a result of starvation and lack of necessary supplies to continue the war, mass destruction via B-52 bombings, huge losses in Manchuria to the Soviets, and a growing number of officials who disapproved of continuing the war. Nor can they prove that these issues did not factor into Japan's decision to end the war, rather than it being solely the use of Nukes that brought about their decision."

And of course you can PROVE the opposite? And do you suppose it would have been more humane for hundreds of thousands to continue to die from starvation and fire bombings?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 12:21:

jaja, I'm definitely not in my 20s. I'm an old man.

"ta dah...drum roll.....Fox News!!"

You're not going make me start doing shots this early are you?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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goin_south says on Feb 14, 2009, 12:43:

billyb is so old.... he's got spanish moss hanging from his limbs ;-)

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Feb 14, 2009, 12:44:

He's so old,... He has 'No Memoires de las Putas Tristes'

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Feb 14, 2009, 12:45:

He's so old.... Medicare denied him coverage.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 12:55:

No such thing as Putas Tristes when they are with me.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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goin_south says on Feb 14, 2009, 13:01:

no such thing.... si no puede recordar

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Feb 14, 2009, 13:02:

billy, I think I'll be taking one of those wheelchairs to Colombia, next trip;
or... maybe you can go along, and the chair then gets used!

I promise, I won't let you be crashing into anything. accept maybe some of those hot Avianca Stewardesses!

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 14, 2009, 13:59:

billyb: I do not think that there is anything humane about causing starvation or carrying out bombing raids. However, there is a slight difference in that radiation continues to kill people long after the bombs were dropped. The Nukes were superfluous in my opinion, killing more innocent lives than saving them. It is not as if they erased all of the prior deaths related to starvation nor did they save people from starvation afterward. They simply increased the death toll of innocent civilians unnecessarily. But who cares? It worked and who really gives a damn about something as impersonal as collateral damage.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 14:37:

Gs, I have my own electric one.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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pobrecito says on Feb 14, 2009, 15:58:

gringoloid, at least one common point : in June I shall be 58.

No mas Tasco66 !

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 16:27:

GL, i fought the Jerries in the hedgerows of Normandy . Are you going to be in Bogota second week of march?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Feb 14, 2009, 16:41:

the only reason you lived, was because the krauts wouldn't kill old men.

patriarch

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 17:01:

About the only thing the krauts wouldn't kill then.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 18:48:

"the 'anarcho' is the part that kicks out anyone, any group, any system that is in charge"

Does that go for Trustees also ;)

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Feb 14, 2009, 18:56:

i must be an 'anarcho' billy....i kicked myself out.

d

patriarch

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 18:59:

Doug, I guess now we have at least 2 anarchos.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 19:23:

Not just throw them out, but throw most of them in jail as well. I'm rooting for Obama to succeed, if only out of self interest, but this guy Geithner seems like a lightweight, doesn't he?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 19:26:

"The story is called...... U-Boat 234

(you'll need a non-zionist site besides wikipedia to get the story)"

You know I only get Zionist media, but it sounds interesting, post us a link to it, I would like to read more.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 20:16:

Interesting article, will have to read it in more detail later, but did notice this:

"The two officers were Air Force Colonel Genzo Shosi, an engineer, and Navy Captain Hideo Tomonaga. When the captain of the U-234 made known his intentions to surrender the submarine, which was then en route to Japan after the German surrender, the two Japanese officers committed hari-kiri, and were buried at sea with full military honors by the Germans."

Which gives insight into the Japanese military mentality (bushido), and bolsters the argument that Japan would not give up easily and needed to be persuaded with extreme prejudice.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 20:17:

BTW, nice touch by the Germans, the burial.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Feb 14, 2009, 20:30:

"why is the media pounding us with this 'ice on the wings cause'? On the same day as the crash? Don't they usually wait for the investigation? This story will die soon."

Didn't the pilots themselves mention seeing icing on the recovered black boxes?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Man Tequila says on Feb 14, 2009, 21:19:

It is pretty clear from the first article that if the Australian media did report the name of the accused, vigilantes would string him up. One has no idea of the evidence involved. This specific incidence seems to me to be responsibl journalism, not a shady cover-up.

As for the Macedonian News Agency, I'll never trust them again. Clearly BS.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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kalder says on Feb 15, 2009, 02:23:

"Why are you not surprised, kalder? Probably because gay men always think that straight men are homosexuals. They - or should I say you - often go to great lengths to believe this is so, accepting anything that will allow the dream to continue. My guess is that you have one of those popular SS fetishes, the strong attraction to that which you supposedly hate. I always thought your obsession with hippys was abnormal. Now, I know that you are simply a cheeky pooftah who is totally turned on by the idea of making it with a dirty hippy. Not to mention, you have been implying that I am a teen as of late. Well, sorry to destroy your evenings my pervy little wanker...I am not into males and I am not a hippy or a teen. Oh, by the way...Nice with the manners again."

Bloody hell!



Someone give him back his teddy.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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dwmte7 says on Feb 15, 2009, 06:23:

the homophobic comments in this thread are unacceptable and against the rules of pbh. and as for myself, intolerable.

we can have our differences and express them without insult. frankly, we should all be above this.

we sit here and talk about a world without war, when we can't even keep peace amongst ourselves.

dw.

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Feb 15, 2009, 08:17:

you're right sonny....can't we cut each other some slack instead of cutting each other's throats? damn, we're in this together...we need each other. all are equally valuable and equal parts of the whole. take away one, and we're incomplete.

let's just use the smarts we learned in life to get along with teachers, bankers, cops, customers, stock brokers, et al. and use what we've learned to get along with and maybe even cherish each other. i cannot but feel that all this quibbling and finger pointing is really far below us.

douglas

patriarch

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goin_south says on Feb 15, 2009, 12:04:

yes, but... I'd like to post my 'msn paint' version of morphus in that black suite..
before we decide to all get along... jaj

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lcacique says on Feb 15, 2009, 12:27:

Excellent points; however, when the name-calling is started by someone else and that very person gets snotty when the favor is returned...sorry, I do not feel all that embarrassed to sink down to their level (okay...maybe a little). Sure, sometimes it is nice to turn the other cheek or ignore them - that would be better - but someone as pompous as kalder deserves a verbal lash from time to time. Besides, don't dish it if you can't take it in return. That seems to be the consensus here, remember many are arguing that the annihilation of two cities was justified based on that reasoning. I simply used words to pick on someone who was being an ass.

I do not feel that my comments were homophobic (kalderphobic, maybe). Saying that gay men ALWAYS think that heteros are homosexuals is not true, but saying so does not mean that I hate them or that I fear them. It would have been better, admittedly, to speak in a more general tone or I could have referred to a handful of personal friends who are homosexuals that feel that straights are just dying to crossover. The rest of the comments were directly aimed at kalder not homosexuals. Anybody can have an SS and/or a teen fetish.

If the comments came off as homophobic, I apologize.

I will also point out that dwmte7 (sorry dw) asked pobrecito if he shits where he sleeps. Was the decision not to insult people just recently arrived at? And huskie utilized a french expletive to describe this same person. French sounds so beautiful, right? So, I guess that can be forgiven. Aztec called him a son of a bitch. But everyone's grandpa uses that expression. So, again, I guess that can be overlooked. Or maybe there are different rules for different people. While your words may seek to distance me and/or shame me, your actions only reaffirm the fact that I am not alone.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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kalder says on Feb 15, 2009, 13:38:

Other than suggesting you're a Holocaust-denier, I've called you nowt old son.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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dwmte7 says on Feb 15, 2009, 14:11:

i would not for one minute seet to distance you and i would think by now, you would know that.

my querie to pobre was actually serious....it was my grandfather who said that was the first rule of life...before the commandments...'don't shit where you sleep' a rule i, myself, have regretfully broken in my life. and although i must admit there are times that i'd like to give folks a piece of my mind...mostly salty...for the most part i think i have a rep here of tethering my tongue. and i might add, trying to keep peace here. all that being said, me asking povre if he shit's where he sleeps , is a bit wide of the sexual remarks made above to kalder.

enough. i'm nobody's enemy here and i'd like to see that disease spread.

peace,brother,

douglas

patriarch

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Lcacique says on Feb 15, 2009, 14:32:

Ahhh, sorry for misinterpreting your comment or the intention of your comment. I apologized when I brought it up above for the very reason that you mention: you are known for tethering your tongue.

kalder brought sexuality into it. He wanted to play that game and last night I was willing to play it with him. I am sorry that it upset you.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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