You dropped everything and relocated to Colombia

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 10, 2005, 16:44:

Honestly? Honestly, Colombia is a great country but unless you have a family connection or a romantic one to someone here, I think you'd be insane to choose a country with this many problems and security concerns.

Just ask GringoinBogota, he did it and he'll be the first to admit he's insane;)

utopiacowboy says on Oct 10, 2005, 17:00:

I am married to a Colombiana and I have three Colombian stepchildren. Even so, we would never consider living in Colombia on a permanent basis.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

rocinante says on Oct 10, 2005, 17:13:

Mr Wood I hope your not insinuating that the only thing that makes Colombia a great country is a connection: family or romantic.

If I were to open a business on the internet that earned a small wage for me and if I were to live in the heart of a big city, say Medellin, what are some of the problems and security concerns (besides the obvious concenrs of any large city) that I would need to worry about?

There are numerous deal breakers on every deal and they vary from person to person, deal to deal. I have a friend who must live 10 mins to the beach, another friend who must live near an opera house, etc...

Spigrimace cannot locate Grand Marnier to make margaritas. Had he known that before making the comitment would he have stocked up and shipped a bunch of cases before signing the papers?

Although little, things like this I'm concerned with - also the state of mind and level of happiness of the people who did make the move are also of interest to me, afterall this site is "poor but happy".

I do appreciate your response.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Oct 10, 2005, 17:22:

UTC Your wife relocated to the states? You went through the visa thing I've read about here? I'm wondering if your wife is homesick often for family still in Colombia. Do you visit often or send money to help the family? A husband and wife (both Colombian) in my neighborhood here in the US regularly send money to the wife's brother still there.

Also, if your wife is living in the US now, how has she assimilated? Are there American traits she has 'picked up'? What part of the country do you live in.

I know I ask a great deal of questions, and you don't know me from Adam. Whatever you feel comfortable with and thanks in advance.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

utopiacowboy says on Oct 10, 2005, 17:29:

My wife? Assimilated? That's an amusing thought. She doesn't speak English and is as Colombian as they come. Not that I'm complaining, I wouldn't change a thing about her. She has her husband, her children, her house and garden, her friends and activities and is the happiest person I know.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

bufalo says on Oct 10, 2005, 17:41:

I got rid of everything 3 1/2 years ago and left the states to be with my colombian in Uruguay. Zero planned as far as future was concerned. We live in Colombia now, and hope to stay here. The only thing that we really worry about is economic future. We´re in Armenia, which is about as safe as you can get, allthough things happen here too. If we can´t make a living by next summer, we´ll have to move back to New York. This would majorly suck seeing how expensive it is to live there, and we now have a child.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 10, 2005, 18:13:

Not implying that at all I didn't imply that the only things making Colombia great are family and romance. Far from that, those are things that one can find anywhere. I also meant to add a third thing, professional reasons to live in Colombia.

There are many things I love about Colombia. And many things I'll miss terribly when I leave it. But, honestly, I've been here long enough and seen enough to know that I wouldn't voluntarily hitch my future or my children's future to the likelyhood of Colombia solving her problems.

For me, the real long-term deal killer is the inability to travel by land most places without having to seriously worry about bad things that could happen. I need to live somewhere where I can get out of the city regularly and not just to my gentleman's finca to sit around the pool and drink beers.

I also think that living here and depending on making a living in the local economy would be really tough. All the Colombians I know work their asses off to make a living so without the posh expat situation of earning a foreign salary while living here I think life would be quite difficult. And from what I understand, opening a business of one's own can be quite daunting.

If I wanted a latin american country for sophisticated cities, I'd go to Buenos Aires. If I wanted tropical rainforest, coffee plantations, etc. I'd go to Costa Rica or Panama. If I were looking for a viable economy I'd probably choose Chile.

So, I'm going to turn the question around. Why, if someone has no other connnection to Colombia, should they consider relocating there permanently?

rocinante says on Oct 10, 2005, 18:29:

bufalo wow! Great romantic story bufalo. You've got guts. One thing you wrote though:

"If we can´t make a living by next summer, we´ll have to move back to New York".

Did you not 'give up' your US citizenship? What are the circumstances that allow you to live and work in Colombia and then move (easily?) to the US if necessary? Did you marry in Uruguay or Colombia? It sounds like you have a 'get out of jail free card' if things in Colombia don't work out for you and your family. I'm curious and thanks for your comments.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Oct 10, 2005, 18:59:

Great Wood! "I didn't imply that the only things making Colombia great are family and romance" well, not completely but your first post didn't say much else. Your second post is exactly what I'm looking for. I wish I knew more about you and your particular circumstance but your response, nonetheless is invaluable. "So, I'm going to turn the question around. Why, if someone has no other connnection to Colombia, should they consider relocating there permanently?" Great question and let me tell you Colombia is not my only choice. The answer is twofold. I love the passion of the Latinos, the language, and that robust, zest if you will - it is very much who I am and who I choose to spend time with. Plus I ahve a long lost relative there. The second part is people all over the globe are willing to do my current job for 1/5 of the money. This is because where they live 1/5 of the money is nice. I soon may not have a job or I may be forced to take a pay cut that will make living here not affordable. With globalization and the virtual office I could feassibly work in my current field in a much smaller capacity from anywhere on the planet - for a really low wage of course. But the work could fizzle out. A backout plan (coming back to the US) would be nice as Bufalo seems to have. Although I speak some Italian, and now some Spanish, Brazil is right out as I'm not willing to learn Portuguese (which is a combo of Italian and Spanish!).

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Rubiazo says on Oct 10, 2005, 20:19:

If you are planning to WORK I would not recommend Brazil under any circumstances anyway, unless you are in some specialized field that is highly prized there.
Opening a business in Brazil OR Colombia would be next to impossible, unless you were already VERY well connected and/or planned to do it way under the table.

In my case, I would consider relocating to Colombia not only because I now have a personal connection there, but also for the music scene.

Bufalo, be advised if you DO come back to NYC, the economy is a mess here, and the price of everything has practiaclly doubled since you left. The Help Wanted section has shrunk quite a bit and the Help Offered section has ballooned. You may want to look at moving somewhere else in Colombia where you could make ends meet.

Everybody here is talking about Colombia's long term problems, well what about the US's long term problems? I for one think things are going to get a lot worse in the USA before they get better! And the sad thing about the US is that if its economy really does take a nose dive, there are really not many other redeeming features of the country. It is not like we have great infrastructure in any major way compared to many other countries, nor are we brimming with natural resources. Our energy policy is 30 years behind that of many way poorer nations etc etc etc.

kernow62 says on Oct 10, 2005, 20:35:

My rule of thumb, always have an out and don't burn your bridges behind you.

I am a UK passport holder, which IMHO is worth even more than a US passport. My wife is a US passport holder and holds a Colombian one, so we have a few options open to us when it comes to relocating. By the way personally I won't relocate until retirement age, unless things in the US keep getting worse. There are still more money-making opportunities here, and while I can I am going to obtain as much of the American greenbacks as possible and deposit them elsewhere.

Rubiazo says on Oct 10, 2005, 21:29:

Plenty of reasons 1) Governmental red tape
2) Extortion like we are talking about in the other thread.
3) The fact that you are in a different culture
4) Corollary to 1 and 3, possible regulations because you are an outsider and a completely different tax system which doesnt give nearly as many breaks to small business.

The US may be a cultural vacuum, have horrible quality of food, education etc, but one thing it does right is make it easy to open a small business here. I seriously doubt you would find that anywhere else on the planet.

carter says on Oct 12, 2005, 09:37:

I moved to Colombia a year ago After travelling through Sth America in 2003 I came to Colombia and decided to stay here purely based on the fact that I was having a very good time. My first stint in Colombia lasted 8 months and had nothing to do with love or a job. I worked teaching English till I fell ill and couldn't work.

I finally left Colombia because of a girl (non Colombian) and went to Canada which I didn't really enjoy so decided after 8 months to move back here permanetly.

I wanted a different experience of Colombia as I found Bogota just another big city and I had spent my last 8 months speaking english. So I decided on a small town where the people were extremely friendly, it was safe and where I thought I could open a guesthouse. I didn't want to teach English.

My Guesthouse currently only just pays for itself but Im not to concerned Im doing it for the fun. I have found this town a hell of alot safer than the places I was living in Canada and before that Scotland so security is not a huge issue for me except when I am travelling. I live a great life here and spend most of my days paddling down the river and hanging out with friends.

I have no family here or romantic links (none serious anyway)

I think to say that the only reason to live in Colombia is family or love is ridicuolos. I have a number of friends living here for other reasons mainly based on the culture and people.

I am Australian so Im not sure if I am allowed to answer this question.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Oct 12, 2005, 12:00:

Rocinante said "Spigrimace cannot locate Grand Marnier to make margaritas" He can use Cointreau insted :-)

but I've got the feeling you can find Grand Marnier in Bogota, I went to a Swiss restaurant there, and they had it. I don't think they are importing this just for themselve

engage brain before opening mouth

Hunter says on Oct 12, 2005, 12:12:

I would estimate that about 1 in 10 foreigners I have met in Colombia who live here, moved here because they married a Colombian or had family here, some of the remainder married a Colombian after living here a while.

As to opening and running a business, maybe a lot harder than the US, but it is very easy here compared with the UK, which is generally a huge pain in the ass.

As to extortion I keep hearing here about, I have asked small to medium Colombian and foreign owned companies in Ctg and Med and none of them say they pay anything to anybody apart from local and cental goverment.

Hunter

kernow62 says on Oct 12, 2005, 12:41:

Rubi, try opening a business in Hong Kong. Don't know how it is now but it used to be even easier than the US.

carter says on Oct 12, 2005, 14:32:

Out of all my friends who have relocated here None have relocated because of a certain girl or family. I would say out of my 10 closes foriegn friends (of those here for more than 18 months) only one is here because he has a kid here. Others have girlfriends here but that is not the reason they have decided to stay.

This may be the difference between those foriegners who live in the Candelaria and those that live up north bogota. i would have to say that most of my friends living here are around the 25-30 mark

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 12, 2005, 14:43:

One thing to note Carter, I'm glad to hear there are a lot of foreigners living here for the reasons you list. It's a sign that things are improving in Colombia. However, Rocinante said he was looking to leave the US "for good" which opens up a different can of worms than being 25 years old and hanging out in a country for a year because it's cool and exciting. In fact, the very things that make Colombia a bad long-term bet are the same that make it a very exciting temporary place to be young and footloose. I spent a lot of time in Central America and Mexico when I was that age and know exactly the thrill. But I'm curious if you can see yourself spending the rest of your life and growing old here? That's how I read the orignal question.

Part of what I condition my response on is that if you have no family or romantic connection, then the world is your oyster. If I were relocating to either get away from the US or to dramatically cut my cost of living, there are other countries I, personally, would prefer.

carter says on Oct 12, 2005, 14:49:

good point Hollywood Im now getting up to nearly 2 years here and I have my business in place. Im definatly going to stick around for the next 3-4 years but after that who knows. The foriegners I popped down as being here for more than 18 months range from those here for 3 years to 18 months and most of them are starting business or have proper jobs. I chose the over 18 months because that seems to suggest that they are not just the 1 yearers but are seriously interested in sticking around.

I´ll stick down my views on my long term ideas of staying here later because with 2 hours to the game i have to go start warming up with a few aguadientes.

bufalo says on Oct 12, 2005, 18:56:

Rochinante, No,I didn´t give up my US citizenship, at least I don´t think I did. We go about once a year to visit. We acutally got married in Cuba, allthough not legally. Hopped on a moped, found a priest, next day had the nups on the beach. Then we went to Colombia and got married here and then had the baby. I´m legal here seeing my wife is colombian. We have a certain amount of savings that we decided when it runs out, we move back to the states and just get regular jobs like everyone else. Hopefully it doesn´t come down to that. We actually just spent 11 months in Barcelona so she could get her master´s. She´s writing her thesis here.
Rubiazo: That´s exactly what scares the hell out of me as far as going back is concerned. Minimum, we´ll be able to eek out a living in NYC, but at what cost? Both working like maniacs and not seeing much of our daughter. I´m actually really freaked out about this and lose quite a lot of sleep. Before our daughter it was no big deal, but daycare in NY and housing is just insane.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Crazy Eagle says on Oct 12, 2005, 19:41:

why NYC? Bufalo, you have many options. Don't freak over this. Living in NYC can be tough, but there are many other places in the US. It sounds to me like you can chose a place that suits your needs. Some cities in the US are easier to work and live in than others.

Same thing with Colombia. I hear that Medellin and Bogota are the best places for foreigners to find work.

I don't know your situation, but you could teach English as a foreign language in places like Thailand and make good money. I don't know if this is an option, but you could get a teaching degree and work as a teacher, either in the US or abroad. Science, math, and Spanish are in high demand as teachable subjects. I hope this advice helps, and that things work out.

"Beer is the best proof that God loves us." Ben Franklin

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

Rubiazo says on Oct 12, 2005, 22:09:

CE and Bufalo CE I dunno where else in the US would be PREFERABLE to NYC. Most places here in the USA your choices of eating out are between McDonalds and Denny's! Not to mention you HAVE to have a car just to exist.

I would seriously consider Medellin or Bogota if i were Bufalo, before going back to the US. Especially since he has a young child. Unless you can afford to live in a really good neighborhood here OR pay crazy money out of pocket for a decent private school, the education system is a nightmare!

BAQ says on Oct 13, 2005, 00:49:

Dumped it all I dumped it all. Took a Federal Retirement, sold everything, left the U.S and moved here to be with my Colombian wife. Arrived with 3 suitcases and a pockets full of cash. I LOVE IT HERE.

The U.S.A ?? YOU CAN HAVE IT! Got tired of all the bullshit, the corporate ripoffs, high prices, taxes, everyone screaming racism, descrimination, law suits for looking at someone the wrong way, everything having to be "Politically correct" and YES, the GOVERNMENT, and not only the one I worked for, State & Local included. Got tired of all the OVER REGULATION. It's getting to the point you need to get a permit just to take a dump. TAKE YOUR PICK of the problems.

If most of you knew what I know, what our Govt DOESN'T tell you and what is coming down the tube in the next few years, you would leave also. You think the cluster fuck over Huricaine Katrina was bad? HA, YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING YET !

Only way I would return would be to defend my homeland if someone invaded out shores.

Semper Fidelis !

aztec says on Oct 13, 2005, 06:26:

bufalo... ...you mentioned that you are legal since you are married to a Colombian. Does that imply you have a spousal visa?

" No,I didn´t give up my US citizenship, at least I don´t think I did." I believe one has to demonstrate an intent to surrender his/her U.S. citizenship. There are several ways that may demonstrate such intent.

bufalo says on Oct 13, 2005, 14:18:

I agree with a lot of what BAQ said. I´m currently teaching English here now, but the pay is horrible. I did find some really good jobs in Asia for it though.
Aztec, yes, I´m on a spousal visa. I´ll have to look into what is considered "intent".

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Rubiazo says on Oct 13, 2005, 21:04:

BAQ funny thing, i have an email today in my inbox (my gmail, not PBH) saying the exact same thing. I can feel it in my blood too. This country is in for some SERIOUS bad times in the next several years.

Crazy Eagle says on Oct 14, 2005, 14:21:

Middle East too Buffalo, you can make really big bucks teaching in Saudi or in Dubai (more liberal, little less $$). Sounds like a major cash inflow over the next 2-3 years would really help out your family. Think about it.

BAQ: are you in BAQ? That's where I hope to go. Even though its hotter than where the christians say I'll end up.

"There is no better soporific and sedative than skepticism." Frederich Nietzsche

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

Jeffk15 says on Oct 15, 2005, 08:45:

Life is Good Well I sold off everything I had a year ago,came to Bogota. purchased a home, bar/restaurant..... I'm loving IT!!!

utopiacowboy says on Oct 15, 2005, 08:50:

I am sure that everyone would like to hear more about your experiences in Bogota, Jeff, running a business etc. There are a lot of people here who express interest in this topic. Senor, dime mas, por favor.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

CaryGrant says on Oct 15, 2005, 09:11:

Rubi Not everyone thinks that what NYC has to offer is the ultimate. New Yorker's (including you) have a hard time believing that NYC is NOT the pinnacle of human achievement, NOT the centre of the known universe, NOT the best place for everyone. Different strokes...

Rubiazo says on Oct 15, 2005, 09:34:

I'm the LAST person to think that I just think it is one of the only places with living here in the US, that's all. There really arent' many areas of this country that have anything approaching what I'd call culture. One of them WAS New Orleans :((((

sgilly says on Oct 15, 2005, 10:11:

Relocating to Clombia Jeff in Bogata seems positive about his experience in regards to his Bar - House etc in Bogata?

I am hoping to moved to Colombia "Permanently" in 11 months from the UK, I was born in the UK, have been maried 28 years to a Colombian, I have taken the TEFL course, and still studying, maybe buy and rent out property in Colombia to generate income "Am I Crazy or Delusional" do I need a work permit if I obtain a Colombian passport to open my own business or teach english?.Realistic concerns such as the unpredictability of a nations politics, security etc we can accept and take our chances, is success not an option? I have read most of the comments here appreciating that finance seems one issue of concern amongst others.I have been to Colombia 3 times and loved it, but a permanent move is a big step, the culture change etc will be a process I am sure, but when in Rome!!!. (Excuse the Grammar and spelling) Jeff tell us more?

Bigfish says on Oct 15, 2005, 12:05:

Your Sentiments I'm pretty much on the threshold of embarking on the life you describe.(Although from the UK rather than OZ). I'm going to Barranquilla in the near future and would be interested, if you have the time and inclination, to know more.

CaryGrant says on Oct 15, 2005, 12:31:

Rubi "There really arent' many areas of this country that have anything approaching what I'd call culture."

Also what many NY'ers say, while they look down their noses at the rest of the country/world. I suppose it depends upon what you define as culture, and if the negatives of living in NYC are worth it to you to experience your definition of culture.

BAQ says on Oct 15, 2005, 13:08:

Yes, BAQ lives in BAQ, hahahaha.

If you will be buying a house or apartment, send me a PM and I can hook you up with a guy who helped me find my house. He is a real estate agent and his services are free to the buyer. He has a car to drive you around to see the different houses and speaks VERY GOOD english. He is honest and helped me and my wife find a very good house in only a few days.

PLUS, he will help you file your papers with the Govt ect.

Hope the info helps.

Semper Fidelis !

Rubiazo says on Oct 15, 2005, 21:03:

Culture = 1) Having somewhere to go out and eat that doesn't serve disgusting food. Doing the above after 9 or 10pm is definitely a plus in my book too.
2) Being able to go to live theater and have it not suck.
3) Having art galleries that don't suck
4) Having museums that don't suck
5) Being able to hear real live music that doesn't suck. Or even a DJ that actually mixes stuff together in an interesting way instead of just putting on one song after another.
6) Being able to walk down the street and see people that are not morbidly obese, and in clothes that actually look good on them.

Once you get more than maybe 40 miles away from NYC you are generally failing on all six counts.
Are the negatives of NYC worth the 'culture'? Well, unfortunately we are losing our culture here almost week by week. This is one of the reasons I have such a hard on for Bogota and Latin America in general.

Last night I had to take the train home at 3am. At my transfer at Rockefeller Center, on the opposite platform there was some homeless lady sleeping slumped down on the bench and a BIG motherfuckin rat sniffing around her feet YEECHH! I thought about shouting at her to wake her up, but it probably woulda scared the shit out of her, or maybe she woulda been pissed off for having been woken up. :/

But I could NEVER live in most of the US. I would personally rather slit my wrists than go back to a lifestyle where I HAD to use a car to get EVERYWHERE, or to live in a place where people's idea of haute cuisine is fucking Pizzeria Uno!!

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 16, 2005, 09:24:

Rubiazo I'm curious how much you've traveled in the US? Ever been to San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc? NYC is great but it's hardly got a monopoly on culture, night life, or good food.

And then there's small town America, cool places like Whitefish Montana, Moab Utah, Telluride Colorado.

BAQ says on Oct 16, 2005, 10:21:

Tinto Yea, you are correct, Carrefour is kicking ass here in Barranquilla. If I was the CEO of VIVERRO or SOW, I would be in the beginning stage of panic mode. Carrefour puts em both the shame. Here, Carrefour and Exito are the new boys on the block and they are drawing a lot of business away from the other two and Carrefour, for the most part, has better prices.

Semper Fidelis !

Hunter says on Oct 16, 2005, 11:44:

Tinto Carrefour are trying to sell their Colombian operations, since about April 2005. They are not making much money (if any) on their South American operations and are selling up in many Countries, to concentrate on a few.

Not read of any takers yet for the Colombian ones, but I know Tesco (UK superstore) bought/swapped some stores in differant Countries in SE Asia with them.

In Medellin the Carrefour is pretty empty every time I visit it, compared with Exito.

Hunter

Hunter says on Oct 16, 2005, 13:02:

Tinto I have read it several times over the last half year or so, in Reuters first then the FT and other articles.

Hunter

Rubiazo says on Oct 16, 2005, 20:46:

Been to most of those places I REALLY wanna see Chicago, I have never been. I hear a lot of good things about it.
Boston doesn't have that much in the way of culture IMO. I would go nuts there.
It seems like this is not nearly as much of a problem in Latin America. Even the Dominican Republic, while it may not be big on art galleries and museums, has TONS of live theater and music, and lots of great restaurants, as long as you don't actually expect authentic Italian or Thai or whatever. And as an added bonus, you can get anywhere you want any time of day or night without having to bother with a car!!
The one big exception in North America as far as culture goes is the province of Quebec, at least from Montreal south and east. Even crappy little small towns there have lots of arts stuff going on. Quebec has always seemed to me to be a little bit of Latin America close to home, but with horrific weather of course! I have actually heard Montreal called 'the Caracas of the North' more than once.
Mr Hollywood, in any of those small towns, could I get something decent to eat that's not fast food at 4am, much less catch a really good live band?

traveler803 says on Oct 19, 2005, 09:10:

Other Countries?? Am thoroughly enjoying going through these responses as I've just returned from being in Bogota for almost a month where my son (US) has just married a Colombian and will soon be opening his own North American style restaurant.
I enjoyed Bogota in many different ways even though starting a business there does have its frustrations compared to starting one here in the US.
However, I'm curious as to what other countries/cities you'd suggest regarding retirement outside the US. Really enjoy this forum. Thanks

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2005, 09:19:

Small towns "Mr Hollywood, in any of those small towns, could I get something decent to eat that's not fast food at 4am, much less catch a really good live band?"

Good bands, yes. On the other hand, you couldn't find ANYTHING to eat at 4 AM, unless the breakfast joint was waking up early to feed the farmers before they go to work at 5 AM. On the good side, most of them don't have any corporate fast food, either.

You clearly sound like you're best served by living in big cities. My only real point was that there's actually a lot of the US that hasn't been bulldozed by the homogeneous strip mall culture of McDonalds, Walmart and TGI Fridays. Let's pray it stays that way.

kernow62 says on Oct 19, 2005, 13:19:

Good live bands, are a matter of opinion. What you, Rubi, considers a good band I may think sucks and vice versa. I agree though, NYC would probably be THE place in the US to see good bands. I live in a cultural wasteland here in Florida, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I don't have to put up with snow though. ;-)

Public transport is only something other cities have. This is the land of bus sized SUVs with tourists who are driving whilst reading a map. The closest thing we have to culture is bike week, hell yeah, cole slaw wrasslin'.

Rubiazo says on Oct 20, 2005, 00:46:

Really to consistently see GOOD live bands one would have to get in a time machine and go back 20 years or so. The quality of much has dropped so much since I was a kid it isn't even funny.

Colombia does seem to be holding its own in this department more than anywhere else I have been though. For this I have to tip my hat.

Rubiazo says on Oct 20, 2005, 11:54:

HAH That's probably the best argument for leaving here I have heard yet, Tinto!!

The late 60s on were certainly a historical aberration. But before that, there certainly was no lack of live music! It was just a little more, uh, tame in its presentation. Or sometimes it wasn't either i.e. Beale St in Memphis in the 50s.

Cost of living I think has a big deal to do with it. NYC has always been an expensive place to live but there were plenty of lower income pockets all over the city, and that is where most of the artists chose to live.

I think technology may also be a factor. BUT my chief observation contra-indicating this is that Bogota and Rio and other Latin American cities are really not that far behind NYC or Miami in technology. The one thing they really lack compared to us are the amount of cars!!

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 20, 2005, 12:35:

The real question about 20 years 20 years ago I was in College and lived in an area where you could see 10 different bands in a night, often playing in your own driveway. Many of those bands went on to become quite successful.

Today, I live in a place where you must go to a bit of effort to see good live music. However, I don't think times have actually changed that much, rather, our lives have. I suspect if I dropped in on my old college hang-outs next weekend, it would be more the same than different.

carter says on Oct 20, 2005, 12:51:

If you want to see good live music Go to Melbourne.

Pub rock is alive and well. A few make it on the International scene ie: Jet. but most of the best ones are still working the bars playing for crowds of 50 to 400. Dallas Crane, You am I, Daughter Boy Jao, Pitchers and our next big export Airborne (those boys know how to rock)

http://www.step2management.com/epk/
(Airborne promo video)

Crazy4Cali says on Oct 22, 2005, 09:02:

Live Music here and there I love going to live bands in latin america, they seem so... real. They seem to enjoy their work, the atmosphere is lively, the music isn't "state-of-the-art" or "cutting-edge" and isn't trying to be. Just good honest fun.

In [my admittedly limited experience in] the U.S. there seems to be an underlying pressure to have the "next new sound" and "make it big." It's like they are playing in the bar just to get to the next step somewhere else as opposed to just having some good honest fun.

My guess is that's because many (most? all?) bands playing in a bar or club in the U.S. ARE trying to move up to the next bigger venue while most live bands in Latin America are happy to play where they are playing.

But that's just me.

utopiacowboy says on Oct 22, 2005, 18:27:

Maybe it's just San Antonio or the Latin clubs we frequent but the same people have been playing for years.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

kernow62 says on Oct 22, 2005, 18:49:

I think MP3s and IPODS are making a whole generation of people who don't know what good sound really is.

Rubiazo says on Oct 22, 2005, 18:51:

DITTO kernow Hollywood, I wish that were the case. But it doesnt seem to be the case anywhere I've been in the US. Now it's just a lounge, a DJ and some Prada shoes all over the place :(

dwmte says on Oct 23, 2005, 06:46:

friend i don't know that having family/friends in colombia is the key to having a happy successful experience there.

true, i'm married to a paisa and have been for many years. however, the family, albiet wonderful, hasn't helped at all in my business experiences there. the family is typical middle class colombian stock, honest and friendly. but driven by business saavy, they are not. that was left to me.

my first couple of years were spent manufacturing furnishings for our store in los angeles. then, after it's loss as a result of the rodney king riots, the next couple of years living in colombia were spent running my own bar, restaurant and antique business. they were successful in that they paid the bills, but like 95% of all colombian businesses, they were basically break even enterprises and not big bottom line models.

in short, you can run a business in colombia--on or off the books--and get by. the government as far as businesses are concerned, in my experience, is not on the take. they're just like any government in any civilized country, a pain in the ass, simply because you need to deal with all their demands. but, i never experienced corruption or graft demands.

i've lived all over antioquia, in very dangerous areas and in very wealthy, secure areas. you can take your pick and choose what suits you best. personally, i'll take the indeterminancy of llano grande and the problems which might arise over the security of poblado, any day of the week.

good luck.

dwmte dwmte at bellsouth.net

pepster says on Nov 10, 2005, 22:15:

I Disagree Kernow "I am a UK passport holder, which IMHO is worth even more than a US passport."

It may be your opinion...but I TOTALLY disagree with you.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 05:05:

Pepster, it is of course my opinion. However my reasons are that a larger number of countries are available for me to reside in and work in. Simply that. Oh and I have no worries visiting Cuba, well except the fact that I reside in the US which is fast becoming a police state.

What are your reasons for thinking the US passport is better. I am sure you have your reasons, other than just being patriotic.

My wife has a US one and whilst it gives her the not inconsiderable advantage of living and working in the US, she cannot think of another advantage. Sure she can vote in US elections, but a Colombian passport holder can vote in Colombian elections, so no advantage.

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 08:33:

I have a couple of reasons I agree with you Kernow that the US is not turning for the better, but I would not turn in my US passport for any other on this planet.

I'm sorry, but the USA still is the land of opportunity, you can become something here...you can make a life for yourself and expand. You see it everyday, successful people being able to go back to their home countries and continuing their success. America facilitates that.

What would I do with a UK passport? Work within the European Community...unemployment, ridiculous taxes..? I mean c'mon...the only reason Colombians are migrating to Britian, Spain or Italy, is because they'll have them. I can unscientifically guess that most if not all Colombian immigrants in Europe would have taken the USA over Europe if granted the opportunity.

I mean it's no comparison!

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

ElCheAmericano says on Nov 11, 2005, 08:47:

Rubiazo As someone that grew up in New York I was under the myth that only culture and good exist in NY. Now that I live in South Florida I realize that this is not necesarily the case. I love New York City and it has a lot of positive things about but also has a lot of negative. There or other cities in this country that are up in coming due partly to the fact that many people from cities like NY have had to relocate to newer cities to make a life for themselves because NY is just to damn expensive to live. Maybe if you some Bohemian that doenst mind paying $2000 for some shity studio apartment then NY is great. But if you would like to raise a family own a house one day and you only make a descent income then NY is out of the question in my honest opinion. Even Florida is to expensive, time to move on.

Rubiazo says on Nov 11, 2005, 09:04:

Yeh but what do you get in the US for 'not expensive' You end up living somewhere were ketchup passes for marinara sauce and the idea of a fine restaurant is freaking Red Lobster or Olive Garden!! If it's 'not expensive' you are also almost guaranteed a third-rate education for your kids unless you are willing to spring for private school, in which case you are now back on 'expensive'.

In Bogota I could live cheaply, eat well, AND never have to drive a car again. Even here in NY I need to rent a car from time to time because for example all the Costcos are located in totally remote areas and no trains or taxis go there. Just yesterday I had to rent a car because we had a gig way out in the middle of nowhere. In Colombia I would have been driven too and from that gig!

Pepster, if what you said is true, why are so many Cubans choosing Colombia as a destination country OVER the US? They have an easy in with immigration here, always have since 1959. I heard some Cubans down in Bogota calling the US 'comunismo con hamburguesas' and saying they were MUCH happier to be in Bogota, for various reasons.

I think the one place most Colombians abroad really want to be if anywhere is back home in Colombia, although there are some who do prefer it here. But the most common story of a Colombian expat here is 'I really don't like being here anymore but I don't want to go back with my tail between my legs, I want to clear my debts here honestly and come back with money to get a nice house etc.'

Rubiazo says on Nov 11, 2005, 09:25:

Cubans certainly dont get any benefit coming by raft. Generally the way they come here from Cuba is that they fly to an intermediate destination, like Spain or Mexico, and then hop on a flight to the USA.

There was one case I remember where they actually ended up sending some raft people back to Cuba, I don't remember why though.

It is the Cuban gov't that has a problem with them flying directly to the USA and usually doesn't grant permission. But there are organizations that help people who want to leave leave anyways.

They are legally allowed to emigrate to Colombia however.

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:09:

pepster I wouldn't set foot on the usa if you paid me to.
I did congratulate my father on his choice of country to relocate to when I last saw him a year ago.....he told me the usa was a no-no for him...it was either the uk or australia.....so here is one person that will gladly tell uncle sam to keep his dream.

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:10:

Rubiazo "Pepster, if what you said is true, why are so many Cubans choosing Colombia as a destination country OVER the US? They have an easy in with immigration here, always have since 1959. I heard some Cubans down in Bogota calling the US 'comunismo con hamburguesas' and saying they were MUCH happier to be in Bogota, for various reasons. "

I can easily say most Cubans don't prefer Colombia over USA because of economic reasons...maybe because of language or ease of immigration.

Period.

In order to go to the USA they have to float to the US and make it onto shore. If they're interdicted, they are sent back.

I'm sorry, but alot of you are under this myth that people in Latin America are preferring other countries than the US but for what reason?

What are you basing this on? Go on the internet, talk to the folks...ask anyone on the streets of the DR, Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela...where they'd rather go...USA or Europe?


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:11:

PS I only have one passport it says REPUBLICA DE COLOMBIA on the front....I don't think I'm any the worse for having a Colombian passport instead of an american or British one

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:13:

Have you been here quindioman?

Educated here...work here? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?


You're obviously Anti-US without any real objectivity.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:14:

quindioman "I only have one passport it says REPUBLICA DE COLOMBIA on the front....I don't think I'm any the worse for having a Colombian passport instead of an american or British one"

No one has...I think you're projecting something no one is insinuating.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:23:

pepster What would I do with a UK passport? Work within the European Community...unemployment, ridiculous taxes..? I mean c'mon...the only reason Colombians are migrating to Britian, Spain or Italy, is because they'll have them.....question: do YOU know what you are talking about?

and another one:
I can unscientifically guess that most if not all Colombian immigrants in Europe would have taken the USA over Europe if granted the opportunity.....your unsientific guess falls flat....i just told you my dad chose both the uk and australia over the us.

Now as regards to your question...no I haven't been educated in the states....i never knew the us had a monopoly over education.

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:27:

i don't mind wearing that shoe pepster....very ironic to hear you talking about objectivity.

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:28:

quindioman Obviously, you haven't read well what I said. I said unscientifically, because I don't know everyone...and I wish you'd specify the reason why your father said noway to the US.

Having traveled to a quite a few countries...I can frankly say you have no idea what you're talking about when you cannot come up with one reason why there is any advantage of having UK citizenship over US.

I think you may have other issues.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:30:

I guess... I guess objectivity only exists if I agree with your unsubstantiated argument...oh..you have no argument.. You have yet to say anything regarding the subject. Other than "my adoptive country is better than your country"...if that's what you call a discussion.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:34:

Right Again Tinto The Brain Drain in latin america is HUGE!

This is something that is going to seriously hurt Venezuela in the coming years.

You have the wealthy and educated leaving. There go the jobs and the enlightened...God have mercy on those left behind.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:49:

there's no point in debating with you pepster.
I replied to your comments which if I read correctly insinuated that Colombians (given the choice) would migrate to the us rather than anywhere else.
I did not say the uk is better than the us...my response was meant to illustrate that the are (a sizeable) number of Colombians that are WILLINGLY choosing any other place other than the states...why? I dunno perhaps they are not sheep.
Let me get this straight for you

I replied to your post which i thought was wrong.....please feel free to copy and paste where i said the uk is better than the us

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:50:

issues? I only have one issue with mary jane that's all

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:51:

and plenty of back issues of viz

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 11, 2005, 10:54:

it's not the same for everybody I guess I shouldn't get into this one since I'm not a Colombian expatriate, but I can personally see several advantages why a person could choose a EU country over USA.

Now, every European country is different and the level of social security, job and study opportunities varies widely from one country to another. The comparison is very difficult and our past experiences tend to color our perception of reality in a degree to which we tend to lose some objectivity.

I will speak only for myself: Sweden vs. USA

Sweden wins: Better social security. Free, high quality education to all. Good health care for everybody at low cost. Excellent housing standards. Much smaller disparity on economical levels. Better unemployment policies, child care, job security.

USA wins: more variety in education and excellent universities. Easier to get wealthy. Lower taxes. Closer to Colombia:)

There's more...

Cheers,
Desi





Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 11:00:

thanks Desi Very well put...


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 11:02:

Quindioman I don't feel like arguing...it's almost the weekend.

What's vis anyway?

later!

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

quindioman says on Nov 11, 2005, 11:11:

viz I won't spoil the fun but it's the best thing to come out of newcastle....well apart from Necastle Brown Ale and Gazza.

Sorry Pepster it's very much a thing only people in Britain will now about but this'll fill you in have a read
My personal favourite was Roger Melly....the man on the telly.
This brand of humour is very much an acquired taste.

utopiacowboy says on Nov 11, 2005, 11:51:

I'd like to see some numbers on how expatriate Colombians vote with their feet. All I can find is the US has 600,000 Colombians while Spain has 48,000. Anyone have the numbers?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 12:58:

So there is an equal percentage of the US population that is Colombian as there is of Spain's population.

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 13:06:

Really? I know for a fact that the NYC Metro area has over half a million Colombians alone.

Please read here!


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 13:06:

Pepster, you are correct, the US is the easiest place to make money. Money is nice, and that is why I am in the US. It is not for any other reason. While I am able to earn a living I will probably remain here and then bugger off somewhere else to enjoy my dollars.

It is a bit like going to a job you don't like because the pay is great. Sure I work long houurs in a factory, eat fast food for lunch, and the boss hates me but look at the money I am making. Sure I could be enjoying myself doing something I really like, but then I wouldn't own a Hummer. We all have to makee choices.

Having consulted my Roger's Profanisaurus courtesy of the fine folks at Viz, I shall say "see you next Tuesday".

pepster says on Nov 11, 2005, 13:11:

Kernow I see your point! I'd love to live my life in Europe...the culture...the scenary...unfortunately I'm a pragmatist that likes to hedge his bets.

That's where my US vs. UK passport analogy came from.

I know the US can be cold and holllow...but like you said..it's serving your purpose and very much mine.


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 13:17:

That is why I am hedging my bets in more than one country. ;-)

Of course since I lose more bets than I win lately (except that last match against Chelski), I am leaving the US possibility open with the old green card.

Cerealkiller says on Nov 11, 2005, 15:13:

Europe Vs America Just to add up on the debate. I come from a european family and have lived and been schooled in the states. It really is hard to tell which one is better without sounding too bias, but the truth is, (and this goes for you Pepster ;) ) The American Dream is no longer what is was cracked up to be, I dont know if you saw the BBC report on minorities just this week, minorities have more chances to climb up the social ladder in Europe than in America. On the other hand, yes you are totally right when you say a lot more Colombians would rather go to the states, but then again you have to take into account it isnt for the reasons you probably think...on the one hand it is low income colombians who decide to go to the states because it is cheaper to get to the States, it is closer to colombia and most of them know of someone who is already there. Whereas the great majority of highly educated people have a vast preference for Europe. Latinos in the US are often considered inferior, just like blacks were in the first half on the xxth century. This is not the case in Europe...I think europeans integrate while americans assimilate.
And yes, it is my opinion, Im entitled to one!!! :P

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 15:33:

Rubi, you want to play some good live gigs, come down here to Central Florida. I will get you gigs playing redneck joints, such as the haunt I used to fight in (usually too drunk to care). You must learn at least one good ol' boy country tune to begin with just to lull them a bit, then you can switch to whatever it is you normally play, Barry Manilow or whatever.

utopiacowboy says on Nov 11, 2005, 15:34:

I guess that's why all the North Africans are rioting in France. They're just so happy! How can Latinos be considered inferior in a place like South Texas? They're the majority! In a few years they'll be the majority of the entire state and I assure you, they are not considered inferior. When will they have a similar situation anywhere in Europe?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 15:41:

I thought those folks rioting were French not North African.

Lionheart says on Nov 11, 2005, 18:22:

there is no integration anywhere in Germany 3rd generation Turks are still Turks and not Germans

in France 3rd generation North Africans are still North Africans and not French

in Texas 3rd generation Mexicans are still Mexicans and not North American Caucasians

in Seattle/San Francisco/Vancouver B.C. 3rd generation Asians are still Asians and not North American Caucasians

In Europe Spaniards and Portuguese (and Italians) are Caucasians and are considered as whites, Arabs and North Africans are the brown ones. The separation between Latin (Hispanic is even worse expression) and Caucasian whites is just invented for separation in the USA ...

this list has no end to it

it is all such nonsense and a moot discussion ... as long as racism prevails in some way.

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 18:33:

Isn't it strange how racism disappears when you meet a fellow (insert your nationality here) no matter the race or ethnic background they or you might be when you both find yourselves in a distant land.

WestCoastGirl says on Nov 11, 2005, 18:37:

Cerealkiller I disagree with you. The Colombians in the US I know are not all low-income people. The majority of Colombian immigrants and children of Colombian immigrants I know in California (I can only speak for this state and my experience) are well educated and have professional careers. I know a few Colombians who choose to go to Europe because they were denied a US visa. I would not generalize and state that all Colombians who went to Europe fall into this category as I don't think you should generalize and state that all Colombians who come to the US are low-income Colombianos. And that is my opinion. : )

CA (Colombian-American) girl

DeltaDawg says on Nov 11, 2005, 19:43:

Relocate I know if I could find a job there I would move down there to Cartagena in a heartbeat. Flying into Bogota I could see why people are indifferent to it. Seems like any other city but Cartagena was very different and special for me. Would love to stay there.

kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 19:58:

Far from being indifferent I prefer Bogotá.

For me Cartagena is just a tad too laid back, not much different than parts of Florida in that respect. It is also hot as blazes and the beaches aren't that good, too many pesky street vendors too.

cam0940 says on Nov 11, 2005, 21:12:

Interesting point earlier Kernow, that racism does disappear when you meet someone who shares your nationality in a distant land. The other time it tends to disappear is in war. When bullets start flying, all of a sudden it doesn't matter so much what color the guy next to you is, as long as he's on your side. All of a sudden it's "us" against "those m*therf*ckers!" So, on a human level, when it comes down to survival, we see that we are able to overcome differences. Sharing a common enemy or common dilemma may be the greatest unifying force man has known.

Rubiazo says on Nov 12, 2005, 00:26:

To me the real MYTH is something which Americans (and Canadians too) tend to spout in general, and on this board as well as many others---

People honestly believe that the overwhelming majority of Colombians would sell a body part just to get a chance to live in Canada/US/Spain/UK etc. I see a lot of that CULTURAL CHAUVINISM- it seems to be as prevalent as ever or even maybe moreso today than in other times.

To many people the idea of somebody who has a GC or US citizenship CHOOSING to live in Colombia is ludicrous. Likewise, people have a hard time understanding why a Colombian would ever repatriate once they have established themselves in their new country. The assumption is that the US is a better place IN EVERY WAY, which is obviously illogical, or that the benefits of living here so outweigh the negatives.

But individual tastes and needs and wants are all over the map, and it's really a big grey area. To me it's a very situational thing.

There are legitimate refugees from Colombia and other areas of Latin America, but they are really few and far between. When a Colombian decides to make the big step and immigrate to another country, in almost every case, the prime motivator is going to be money. Why do they come back? I would bet family is pretty high up on the list, if not #1! Also, i have heard 'the people', 'the food', 'the music' etc etc etc.

Tinto I would like to know just what % of Colombia's educated professionals leave the country to find work. I followed your link but found just the article, no numbers. Am I missing something?

kernow62 says on Nov 12, 2005, 06:34:

That is true Rubi, I know a number of Colombians that could live in the US but choose to remain in Colombia, I also know a few who have moved back. For most people their home country will tug at their heart strings at some point during their life.

Put another way. If you took a poll of the majority of Mexicans living in the US, they are here for one thing, money. They are not here because the US is a better place to live, they would rather live back home. The lure of the money is great though.

If the US was in the situation Mexico is and the tables were turned, don't you think Texans would be rushing accross the border to earn the money, but Texas would be where their heart remained.

Cerealkiller says on Nov 12, 2005, 12:06:

CaGirl Those generalizations are not mine at all. I never said ALL Colombians in the States are Low-income and poorly educated. But there was this Semana issue a couple of months ago, or perhaps last year which used figures provided by the IOM which stated that most highly trained people choose Europe. I tried to find the article on the internet but I dont think archives go that far back. I'll keep looking though and ill get back to you on that one. :)

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Lionheart says on Nov 12, 2005, 12:21:

best place for live music Austin, Texas is the The Live Music Capitol of the USA, you can see many live bands on tour every night on 6th Ave and around there.

The SxSW (South by SouthWest) venue every year is a huge festival where bands and filmakers get discovered.

New Orleans used to be important too :-(

Rubiazo says on Nov 12, 2005, 17:25:

HAH nobody has gotten 'discovered' at sxsw or nxne for that matter, for a good 15 years now. The key industry people stay away in DROVES now. It has really turned into a cash grab for the local club owners and for the people organizing the festival, hotels, etc. A $20 signup fee has become something like $450 now.

Sometimes I think that countries like Colombia have a better music scene simply because gear is so much more expensive and hard to come by there. Maybe the bar being set so high helps weed out a lot of people who are not serious.

Lionheart says on Nov 12, 2005, 17:56:

music education I believe solid music education can't be beat, and it still exists as a mandatory subject in most European schools. I don't know about LatAm schools, but the lack of electronics forces you to learn your instrument first ... I have received great rock and metal from several LatAm countries, mainly Colombia, Chile, and Argentina.

I see too many in the USA learning tabs only and relying fully on electronics to create something audible. Most receive no formal education in schools. A crosscheck on bands trying to promote themselves on Myspace confirms that.

I'm not sure how many actually get discovered in Austin, but I sure enjoyed seeing and listening to them there, every night.

pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 10:49:

cereal killer "I never said ALL Colombians in the States are Low-income and poorly educated. But there was this Semana issue a couple of months ago, or perhaps last year which used figures provided by the IOM which stated that most highly trained people choose Europe."

That's probably because they're smart enough to know that it will be almost impossible for them to get US tourist visas, second they probably know or think they may not eat as much shit as they probably would in America.

Just because they choose Europe doesn't mean they know what they're doing...they just think they know.

Let's be frank, Cubans are going to Colombia because they can't get US visas..not because they think Colombia is a better option like other posters here say. Second, Colombians that choose Europe most likely choose it because they think they're going to have an easier time.

Two huge misconceptions.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

Cerealkiller says on Nov 13, 2005, 10:59:

"Just because they choose Europe doesn't mean they know what they're doing...they just think they know."
And I assume you know whats better for them? hahahaha Do you reeeally know what youre doing? or maybe you just think you do? ;)
Does it matter if they know or not? I think the preference is valid as long as theyre convinced. I am sorry pespter, I think youre one of the most interesting PBH debaters but that statement is highly arguable...this isnt the inquisition. I am convinced most people know what theyre doing when they decide to emigrate, and even more so when they have had the chance to see or explore those two worlds. I really dont know how easy it is for a colombian to get a US visa but if there are more than 600K colombians living in the states (not counting those with tourist visas living elsewhere) then it really cant be that unlikely...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 11:07:

CK,

I wasn't arguing the point as if you were defending it. I read your original post and I knew you got it from a Semana issue. I Totally agree with you...this is a highly debatable issue and I for one should excuse my comments as my opinion and not totally based on facts and figures.

I was more or less disagreeing with what you referenced. I have a lot of family all over the world. I have Colombian relatives in Europe. Alot of times people just take a chance and go. I've got lawyer friends that have taken off to London, Paris...just to end up back in the states.

I'm not going to argue that I know everyone's situations, but I feel that I got a gut instinct on what goes through the emigrates' psyche.
Being the product of one.

It's getting REAL HARD to get a visa from Colombia to the States. Like I've said before, I have a close cousin in the US Embassy in Bogota. He said it's just next to impossible for most people.

That's why Europe is getting alot of action in my opinion, not because the grass is greener in Belgium.


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

Hunter says on Nov 13, 2005, 11:18:

Overseas Colombians I have met several hundred who have lived or are living overseas, they generally go there for the money. Top of the list is the US, then the UK and Spain, then other European Countries.

There are approx 100,000 Colombians living in the UK.

I would prefer a UK passport over a US one, for me a passport is solely for moving between Countries, a US passport is not as good as a UK one for that, many Countries don't like the US.

I wouldn't want a Colombian passport because all the problems that many people have pointed out on this board when travelling overseas.

Hunter

utopiacowboy says on Nov 13, 2005, 12:39:

You're right, Hunter. My wife's green card will get her more places than her Colombian passport. I've been thinking about ponying up the dough to get a Canadian passport just for the reasons you mention. The Canadians are such pansies, they don't fight with anyone so nobody hates them like they do the US.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Hunter says on Nov 13, 2005, 13:34:

UC I would think that a Canadian passport is better than a UK one as well, less historical baggage with Cananda than the UK.

Hunter

Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 13:51:

Pepster I don't think you have any IDEA how EASY it is for a Cuban to waltz into the USA. They are extremely privledged in that regard.

You may be correct in that the CUBAN govt gives them much less problems going to Colombia than to the USA, but trust me, they could EASILY get to the USA from there with the help of several organizations that would finance it, and the US govt would have NO problem cooperating. I could have given any one of them a phone number that would have totally hooked them up in that regard, but funny thing, none of them asked me for it!