www.NotCanada.com

CanadaMan says on Oct 13, 2005, 18:13:

Well don't come to Canada then.... Well don't come to Canada then...

Man I can't believe that people spent all that time making that site up.

Formerly WidowerfromCanada...I am engaged to a wonderful Peruviana.

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kernow62 says on Oct 13, 2005, 18:53:

What a load of crap. Try going to any country in the world that immigrants flock to and you will find doctors washing dishes, lawyers cleaning rooms. If you think Canada is expensive try living in Europe. Trust me if Canada was that bad immigration would stop. It isn't as though immigrants who feel badly done by cannot tell their fellow countrymen about any perceived pitfalls. Yet the immigrants still come, I wonder why, could it be Canada is better than from whence they came?

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adrimm says on Oct 13, 2005, 23:49:

Actually It isn't entirely a load of crap. While I doubt it is much better in other countries, most proffessional immigrants (I'm not talking refugees) arriving in Canada (especially those who don't speak the language well and/or come from developing nations) must give up their careers and dreams for subsistence-level living. If they knew it coming in it would be fair, but the gov't purposely selects immigrants that are highly educated, trained, and have some money, often tells them their fields have vacancies and allows them to immigrate. They get here thinking they can take some equivelencies and settle back into their carreers, but it seldom happens. If they make, it is usually in an unrelated field.

The ones that are able to make it are their children.

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adrimm says on Oct 14, 2005, 09:36:

GIB The point system is for immigrants. Refugees who are seeking to escape volatile, dangerous and unhealthy situations go through some other procedure.

Regular immigrants are often people who lived an alright life before they immigrated and who decided that they'd like to move for whatever reason. Liquid assets (cash) brought in also gets them high points so for the first while many manage on their savings, etc. The problem is obtaining work in their fields so they can earn enough to maintain a similar standard of life to what they had. They arrive expecting that this is possible, but the industry reality is different from the siren-song of the government.

A person who had been a doctor in India and now works in some more manual class of work will suffer a decline in lifestyle. They have every right to be disgruntled.

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 14, 2005, 11:18:

Talk about ego... WRT: "A person who had been a doctor in India and now works in some more manual class of work will suffer a decline in lifestyle. They have every right to be disgruntled."

I disagree. They have every right to have an attitude adjustment.

Why should someone come to a country where they may or may not speak the native language or have not passed the necessary certifications for their profession think they deserve to pick up where they left off in their home country. Talk about an ego surplus!

I mean even in the same country, e.g. the U.S., many professions require state certification that doesn't transfer from one state to the next. So, why would someone think they could just jump in from another country? Especially if they are trying to work in a field that has few openings for the indigenous population.

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adrimm says on Oct 14, 2005, 11:24:

You didn't read my first post re equivelancies.

It is unfair when they are led to believe that they will have the chance to prove their equivelancy and be allowed to work. In such a case it would be best for the person to have stayed home.

They are basing tremendous life choices on misleading government information, they have a right to be ticked off when they discover the reality.

Even worse, some industries are in need of highly skilled employees (or will be shortly), they just don't have provisions for immigrants. Of course I am only speaking for Canada.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 14, 2005, 11:36:

HAHAHAHAH That site is NOT mine. I don't even have time to keep my OWN website up to date!!!!!!

The comment about 'beer drinking hockey watching bums' is funny but kind of inaccurate. The vast majority of Canada's homeless people are Canadian-born, NOT immigrants.

Adrimm hit the nail on the head, if you are a REFUGEE in Canada, you are king of the world. THOSE are the people getting all the benefits everybody else pays for. You actually get set up in apartments the average middle class Toronto resident can't afford, and in some cases, the feds actually buy you your very own car!!!

I have seen that, and I have also seen and known personally qualified educated immigrants who come here planning to work in their field and wind up either flipping burgers or simply busting all their savings and going back to their countries with their tails between their legs. And I'm talking about people from West Africa and India who already have IMPECCABLE English, much better than the English you or I would speak. People who are already professionally certified to work in Canada as engineers, etc.

I remember one case of a Ghanaian family that was actually being DEPORTED, and these were people with no criminal history, BOTH parents highly qualified and ready to work, and kids doing well in school. Nobody could figure out why they were summarily deported, and the appeals all fell flat.

The local Catholic church sponsored a Bosnian family. They were INSISTENT on getting $1250 a month in pledges for rent alone! Apparently the couple and their ONE child NEEDED a 2 bedroom apartment. I'd say chuck em in somebody's basement!! Like GIB said, better living in a basement than buried in a mass grave somewhere, RIGHT?

There is definitely a dearth of high paying jobs in Canada, but to be perfectly fair, very few places outside of the USA don't have this problem. The person with a Masters degree working at a fast food joint is all too common in this world, it's certainly not a rare thing somewhere like Colombia.

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rapi2000 says on Oct 14, 2005, 11:55:

Read today's Yahoo on Canada's Immigration Guys,
Just go to Yahoo News today Oct 14th and check what the Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew is saying about 'the need of new immigrants"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051014/ap_on_re_ca/canada_immigrants_needed
FYI.

rapi2000@yahoo.com

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Rubiazo says on Oct 14, 2005, 13:10:

You forgot the pork factor Do you really think YOU will ever get your hands on any of that money? Dream on!! And $400 CDN is less than what they're gonna take out of any ONE of your paychecks, even if you are making peanuts!

Personally I would advise anybody in Latin America, China, or India who has actually found work in their own field to stay the hell home!!! What are these people thinking?? IMO anybody in Colombia who is actually working at a professional job would have to be straight up nuts to come to Canada or the US!

I could understand somebody coming up north if they are on the verge of starvation in Latin America (but how are they gonna get here in that case?). But if you are a professional and they really need you, get the work FIRST and then make the move.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 14, 2005, 13:11:

Also remember Alberta is a 'boom and bust' province. It has gone through a few such cycles in my lifetime. There have been times when Calgary had a 20% vacancy rate for housing!

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kernow62 says on Oct 14, 2005, 13:43:

My father-in-law had his own law firm in Bogotá, my wife was an attorney in Colombia, they both came to the US with high expectations, but ended up working menial jobs for several years. However hard work has rewarded them both with a quite nice life in the US. Bogotá was a lot worse when they moved to the US. They aren't disgruntled because they cannot practice law here, they realise that is how things work.

Try moving to the US from England, that $10,000 Canadian that you must put up is a drop in the bucket compared to how much the US wants you to invest. Still people come and they will continue to come.

Nice to see you back Adrimm.

What is to stop the disgruntled immigrants in Canada communicating with their countrymen so they won't be misled also. It seems logical to me that if everyone was telling me not to come to Canada that it is a big rip-off then immigration would fall sharply. I bet it hasn't dropped though has it? There must be a reason.

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adrimm says on Oct 14, 2005, 14:48:

I guess, like almost everywhere people will believe what they want to, and if the Canadian Government tells them one thing, and someone else another they'll selectively believe what they choose. Perhaps they think it won't happen to them (ie smokers and smoking addiction - won't happen to me.) Maybe the percieved potential gains outweighs the risks.

Some immigrants return home, some are too proud to let on how hard it is, and I guess some make up websites like the title one. I also think that in the grand scheme of things, given the broad geographic range that immigrants are drawn from, and diverse proffessions there are out there it is slower getting the word out back home.

But I do believe the level of information is changing (in part due to technology like the internet), and hopefully people considering immigration will be more informed what may lie ahead for them.

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johnboy77 says on Oct 14, 2005, 18:16:

My message to immigrants who come to Canada, and spend more time bitching that no one is putting a silver spoon in their mouth:

1. Shut up, put on a hard hat, and go to work. Life's tuff. Canada is a free market society, where many many many people are highly educated. Its like the US with a bit less pay and a bit more taxes, but you still have to shut the fuck up and go find yourself a job.

If you don't like, go home.

Alberta is boom and bust, but its looking like BOOM for quite awhile. During the last busts, the oil sands were nothing but a future project... they did not produce profit. The extraction cost was too high. Now oil sells for about triple, and the extraction cost has gone down (not to mention the infastructure is now mainstream). Now About 30% of Canada's oil comes from the Fort Mac Oil Sands, and it represents an oil reserve second only to Saudi Arabia.

Also, when was the last time, an American State, Canadian province, or a Colombiano Departamento decided to give 1.6 billion back to its residents? While the US is running a deficit, Canada is pulling in a tax surplus. Alberta, with its wopping 4 million people (and lowest provincial tax in Canada) pulled in a 6.8 billion dollar surplus. They had so much money, they didn't know what to do with it, so they are just giving a lot of back, and are actually starting a trust fund (SAVING!!!)

Also, I know of immigrants who were smart, didn't go to Toronto, and are actually making a good go of it in Canada. Their the ones who don't have time to bitch, and make retarded websites. Several of my bosses throughout my life were immigrants from God only knows where, not to mention half my University professors were right off the boat from Egypt. Instead of makeing a stupid website, they shut the fuck up and got a job.

My 2 Canadian cents.

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CaryGrant says on Oct 14, 2005, 19:14:

Canada definitely has a ways to go to help skilled immigrants get qualified. The problem, I think, is too many unions (and I include organizations like the Canadian Medical Association, Bar Associations, etc. as unions). These unions and associations often try to restrict access to their field, and immigrants are an easy target. (We can't have Colombian 'doctors' - practicing medicine *HERE!!* They're not up to 'our' standards....)

That said, I second Johnboy's comments, though with less profanity. :-) I'm sure anyone bitter enough and with enough free time could make a NotThisCountry.com site for any country. I have worked with and for lots of immigrants:
* Tried to get my doctor to sign my passport application; he couldn't, because he's South African.
* At my current company of ~110 employees, there are 15 languages spoken.
* At a previous job (Nortel 10 years ago), there were engineers and managers from all over the world.
* Vancouver (city of ~3 million) is about 30% Asian

When I 'immigrated' to the US, where I lived, married, and worked for 8 years, I had to figure out what kind of visa I needed and how to get it, I had to pay social security for 8 years though not permitted to collect, I had to renew my visa annually (the company eventually took that over, once they decided I was going to stay), etc. Had the company decided not to sponsor me for a visa in any year - which happened to a fellow Canuck - bye bye unless you can find a new sponsor asap.

Not too many countries let you walk in and start practicing your trade, whether it be electrician or brain surgeon, without knowing the language and passing some tests.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 14, 2005, 21:50:

Good post, Johnboy, I heartily agree with you. I really like Alberta. If I ever return to Canada to live, that's where I'm headed.

Alaska has been doing the same thing for the past twenty years. Last year, it was $845 for each eligible resident. Here is the web site of the Alaska Permanent Fund: http://www.apfc.org/alaska/dividendprgrm.cfm?s=4

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 15, 2005, 01:45:

I think the site goes a little bit the other way but the point is they are trying to balance the information the Canadian government puts out.
The big difference between the US and Canada is that the US doesn't ADVERTISE to potential immigrants.
And I'm sorry Roofus if you don't see it that way, but I think it's a crying fucking sin that a cardiologist should have to work a menial job sweeping floors or something, when they are trained to save people's lives! Especially in a country where you can wait for months in some areas to see a cardiologist!!

The other issue is that they mislead you into thinking you will be qualified to work in your field. In the US there are no illusions of that. It's really pretty cut and dried, either you can or you can't, unless you are willing to go back to school and do it all over again. If you are a Colombian lawyer or doctor, for example, you can bet on it that you will NOT be working in your field in the USA.
I personally knew lots of people in Toronto who did just that, repatriated themselves. They woulda been a lot better off as tourists, come in, spend on some hotels, drop some on some of the local girls, drink a couple Sleemans, and back!
I stand by my original advice. In the year 2005 it is NOT a good idea to move somewhere and THEN look for work. If you do need to interview in person, come for a short time first and then make a permanent move once you have some real prospects.

Part of why I went to Bogota was to see how the climate was for my line of work so that if I DID decide to move down there long-term I'd know exactly what I'm getting into, and to make business contacts so that I wouldn't be coming in cold. Now next time I go back I have 8 or 9 places interested in me playing, and I know I could do well there because I have already proven it.

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duanebg says on Oct 15, 2005, 10:08:

Angry websites are abound. Don't belive everything you read. I work in the engineering field. Many of the engineers at my company are from other countries. Mexico, Jamaica, China, and the Philippines to name a few. All of whom took either took equivalencies or in the case of Carlo from Mexico was given accreditation based on his experience. I went to school with two gentlemen from China who needed a few courses to receive accreditation. My dentist is from Romania. When he came to Canada he had to take courses and tests before he could practice.

I know it is different depending on which country you come from, but to expect that you can just move t a new country and start doing lung transplants is stupid. Countries have different practices; different codes and different laws. I don’t think anyone would want a Lawyer from Iran defending you in a court in Canada unless he/she has met the local standards. (I have nothing against Iranian Lawyers, I’m sure they do a very good job in Iran, my point is the laws are different. Please don’t start a rant about how everyone who can’t spell Colombia hates Iranians).

I realize that many people made sacrifices to come to Canada. In many cases there former careers. Previous to my current career I worked with ESL students and new Canadians and I met many people who were in the I was a lawyer but now I’ll be “flipping burgers� boat. But there must have been a reason to make this sacrifice. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be given a chance however. Protectionist unions must be dealt with and avenues to gain accreditation should be made available. I know Carlo, my co-worker, heads an organization that is dedicated to helping foreign engineers obtain accreditation in Canada.

My point is; No Canada isn’t perfect but don’t bag on it because it has standards. Thousands of people immigrate here every year hoping for a better life and in many cases get it. Don’t believe everything you read on a web site. Especially one written by an obviously angry, angry person. For all the cases being pointed out on that website there are just as many saying exactly the opposite. Do your homework before you move to a new country. I don’t know maybe even ask someone who has already gone through the process. Maybe where the author of that site immigrated from the Government didn’t lie but I doubt it.

My last word on this topic is: It is easy to point out problems but what is this site (Notcanada.com) doing besides being angry…. Nothing! There is no mention of trying to change policy or help people get accreditation. Just bitching.

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CaryGrant says on Oct 15, 2005, 13:41:

And you better be nice to us Canucks... ..because we're taking over the world: http://cwd.ptbcanadian.com/

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Colombiche says on Oct 15, 2005, 14:00:

Canada asks for qualified professionals ... and has these really tight standards of who can come into the country and who can't. I know many colombian educated surgeons and engineers..etc who are mopping floors as we speak. They abandoned their lives back home under the illusion that they were coming here to fill professional gaps in the Canadian system. While I am not saying that anybody forced them to come here, I do think that Canada promises a little bit more to overseas professionals than it can deliver. Once these people arrive they encounter a Catch-22: You can't get a job if you don't have "Canadian Experience". Ok, so, how are they supposed to get Canadian experience if no company gives them the time of day!!!

Here in Toronto I have ridden in Cabs driven by nuclear physicists, neurosurgeons, chemical engineers.... just because the guy speaks with an accent or has a turban on his head, he is not regarded as being as qualified as Mr. Smith, or Mr. Davis who graduated from university of Waterloo ....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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johnboy77 says on Oct 15, 2005, 14:38:

I have no respect for those who some how think they were tricked into coming to Canada. The official CIC (Customs and Immigration Canada) has a very detailed website. If you click on "Immigrate to Canada", the first link is "A Newcomer’s Introduction to Canada"

This is what you will see if you look under "Finding a job in Canada":


Canadians may change jobs and careers several times. This is often a personal choice. Sometimes people must change jobs because the economy changes. For these, and other reasons, getting a job is not easy. Many people are looking for work.

Newcomers to Canada rarely enter the job market quickly and often must start with jobs below the skill level they worked at in their home country. Once they have Canadian job experience and their ability in English or French improves, so do their job prospects.

Even if you have many years of experience, you do not automatically have the right to practise your trade or profession in Canada. In most cases, you will need to have your credentials assessed to see whether you need more training, education or Canadian work experience before being qualified to practise. You may wish to get your credentials evaluated before you leave for Canada. The following organizations can tell you how to get your credentials assessed:

In Canada, about 20 percent of jobs are regulated by the government to protect public health and safety. For example, nurses, doctors, engineers, teachers and electricians all work in regulated professions. People who want to work in regulated jobs need to get a licence from the regulatory body in the province in which they live. If you want to know more about how to enter a particular profession or trade in a particular province, you should contact the provincial regulatory body for that job. The professions are self-regulating and they administer the provincial laws that apply to their profession. Rules for entering professions also differ from province to province. (For more information, visit www.cicic.ca.)

TIP
Regulated occupations in Canada usually require many years of education, training and practical experience, and the successful completion of a technical examination. Technical examinations to enter a trade or profession can be very expensive.


How can the Canada make it any more clear to immigrants that things will not be a bed of roses? It even tells them in this guide that its colder than a witches tit in the winter, that we have high taxes, and you should try to go somewhere other than Toronto.

Canada is different than the USA, but it is also similar. There are winners and losers.... its a free market, sink or swim society where some people will much more successful than others. If life is tough (AND CANADIAN IMMIGRATION TOLD YOU SO IN THE NEWCOMERS GUIDE) some people just get through it, while others will cry and complain.

It is tough getting a job in Canada. It took me 2.5 months after getting my University Degree in Engineering to find an engineering job. A lot of grads were complaining "everyone wants experience... how do you get experience if they won't give you a job..." Boo-hoo. Just try harder. We all ended up getting jobs, just some people had to cry about how unfair it was. Tough beans as my Mom used to say.

SOme people think that they will come to Canada and strike it rich, that all things will be Rosey. WHY? Immigration Canada is telling you in simple terms, that life will be very difficult for you, especially in the short term.

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cdn says on Oct 18, 2005, 18:52:

my 2 loonies: I get a sense that people in Canada see what is happening, with highly skilled immigrants contributing less to society than they could. Common sense dictates that, in such cases, the certification process should be streamlined, gaps in knowledge and skills identified, and remediated. Here in Canada, common sense usually wins, but sometimes it takes a while. That said, I think that potential immigrants should receive a briefing on the requirements to practice their current profession. If that step in the immigration process is already happening, it should be improved.

It's worth noting that the new symbolic head of state in Canada is herself an immigrant. She came here from Haiti when she was quite young, which helps, but I think for many of us, she embodies where we would like to go, as a mixed-up, polite, beer drinking, hockey playing, wood chopping, crappy dancing, lucky nation. Her website is here.

Good luck to any future Canadians who may be reading this. Bring a toque.

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beachbrat says on Oct 24, 2005, 21:03:

My Opinion I see that the article has some valid points, however much of the information he has is slighted towards Ontaio living. However it would be like someone condemning the whole USA for the policies of California. Ontaio is tough on its immigrants to the country but mostly in the medical field. The time and expense of recertification makes it impossible for most immigrants to the country. These policies are now under reveiw by the provincial governments. They have already started with immigrant recertification programs for nurses in Ontario, so the steps are being taken. I do know of several professional engineers from other countries who continue to work in their field here. In provinces like Alberta, there is an employment shortage, and some of the other mid west provinces are in desperate need for skilled and educated people and therefore have more relaxed recertification programs. It is true there is alot of government red tape, but you can get through it, and you can have a very good lifestyle. Don't forget, FREE HEALTH CARE!

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