Women traveling to Cali

Crazy4Cali says on Jan 15, 2006, 21:21:

Can you get a local connection? Maybe you could try to establish contact with a local down there before you head out. I.e. someone through your school or maybe connect with another student?

I stick out like a sore thumb but I keep my eyes open and have local connections so I have never felt threatened in Cali.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 15, 2006, 21:26:

I have somewhat Crazy4Cali,

some of my Colombian friends here have family members in that area, but since the family is heavily involved in politics, I am afraid to be associated with them because I do not want someone to harm me for being associated with them. Any more suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 15, 2006, 21:39:

Go with the friend of a friend? Have them recommend someone not so close to their political endeavors. Surely they know someone.

But, remember to keep all the "advice" your getting in context. Much of it is anecdotal and much is "worst case scenario" reporting. It would be like getting your view of Los Angeles from an edition of "COPS" or "WORLDS CRAZIEST POLICE CHASES." Sure, everything you see on COPS is true (more or less), but it's a very selective view of the overall reality. That seems to be how news from Colombia is reported.

I've travled to Latin America many times without incident, yet, I've been to Disneyland (the happiest place on earth) in California and been ripped off. What does that mean? Shit happens, I suppose. I don't really know. But I'll probably go back to Disneyland (kicking and screaming but if the kids drag me there....) and I'll probably go back to Colombia. In both cases, I'll keep my eyes open and have a good time.

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caslug says on Jan 15, 2006, 22:00:

You should go! BUT be take the necessary precaution.. listen to local advice regarding safety and err on the side of caution. In 7 weeks in cali, i saw 2 auto acident, knew 2 people that got robbed, saw a fight on the street, and went to a house party where ganster pulled a gun on a gringo(i left a few hour before this happen). nothing bad happen to me during my time and I walked and took the bus lots of places. BUT i am cautious, stay out of bad areas, listen to my instincts and was ALWAYS careful.

If you have friend in CALI, they'll keep you out of trouble and as a girl i would think you'll be LESS likely to be a victim of violent crime, women tend NOT to fight their attackers during a robbery or mugging, hence stand less chance of getting hurt. As a student, people know you dont have lots of money(unless you advertise it) so you only have to worry about random robbery or mugging(which can be avoid w/ proper precaution).

Also, the majority of the university are in the south, try to get a apartment from bull ring or south. Also, look for apartments with security guard inside and hopefully the streets around apartment is lighted.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 16, 2006, 09:30:

So True! You have made a good point C4C! I will try to see if they still have any friends there (they've been here in the USA for 4-5 years already) and try to hang out with their friends. I like the COPS comparison that you made. I will keep that in mind when I make my final decision. Thanks for all of your advice.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 16, 2006, 09:39:

Gracias... ...for giving me a very realistic view of what I can possibly expect. I feel a little better about it, but of course, as you said, I will definitely keep my guard up.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 16, 2006, 09:44:

Really? Hi Tom!

Thanks for responding to my post. You have really peaked my interest now, because I am wondering what have you heard/experienced in Cali that made you feel ill-at-ease. Of course, I want to make the safest decision as possible, so any experiences that you can share with me would be very much appreciated. Also, could you give me some info on Cartagena? I will research it a bit on the Internet myself, but most times the results give me a touristic view of the city, and not a realistic one. Are there universities there?

Thanks!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 16, 2006, 10:02:

I travel alone to Cali and am a woman so I feel I should have something to add to this post, but I'm receiving so much conflicting information about Cali that I don't know what to believe. I haven't been in Cali for a while (it's almost three years now since my last visit) and I have never felt more uneasy about going to that city where I once lived for an extended period of time (12 years). I'm getting ready for my next trip shortly and even if I have not booked the tickets yet (am still waiting to hear from the inmobiliaria in Cali) I know I'll be there soon.

Should you, Southern_Dyme, feel nervous and apprehensive about a stay in in Cali? I frankly believe that life goes on in the Sultana del Valle pretty much as it has always done; just a little more unease and need to be alert and maintain a low profile. That's what I'm planning to do: go about my business as usual in Cali, visit the malls, the resaturants, my friends there, see about my house and the repairs that need to be done; after nightfall go out in company of locals, keep my valuables ( a very small item) locked up at my relative's, carry a copy of my passport and take a friend with me when I take out money at ATMs.

You'll like Cali if you can put up with relatively high daytime temps, enjoy the party scene (salsa!), like and feel comfortable with unpretentious, friendly, laid-back people and stay in a safe, well-lit neighborhood.

Go for it and enjoy your stay in "my" city and please give us some feedback once you're there.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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scottiec says on Jan 16, 2006, 11:11:

mee too..... I have been here in Mexico for three years LIVING not visiting,I have come home late from clubs,gone to rough Cantinas,have gotten in word ¨fights¨ but being smarter and less ëmotional¨has pretty much kept me out of trouble. I have traveled from Los Cabos to Cozumel,from Manzanillo to Matamoros and everything in between and pretty much nothing has happened , I have more problems with my (several) bosses and the way the expect to be able to treat employees, here it is real ugly being an employee,there is ALOT of reasons why they cross the border.Being White ,intelligent,experienced,great for business,here it does not matter,when your below someone they (probably) will let you know who is boss and crap on you. There is a local "dicho" thats says here is like puppies,instead of everyone going to their own nipple to get milk, they will fight for yours and push you down , just to be above you. Its kinda farfeched.......but , darnit its true. I am now thinking about another country, that is why I am here on this site......researching.......good luck,keep your eyes open and enjoy,being a tourist,countries tend to be "prettier" than they really are ,but for me,I would rather KNOW the culture ,than just being a foreigner,taking pictures and leaving and not know the "sabor" flavor of life. For me,politically,I cannot stand the U.S. but because of the flavor of life here in America de Latinos , I could never return and LIVE in the states again. Try to learn things about the culture,history,local myths,foods,these things can increase your respest and you enjoyment of the people and the culture.If your politically adept,go to a university and talk to an English speaking professor and learn (at least ,from his/her point of view) what has happened in the history of the U.S. and the Latin American countries.....it might be an eye-opener.....but learn how to cook something simple that you really like from there and when you get back, you will always appreciate your memories (good and maybe bad ) I will be going soon maybe for a month or so to learn more about Colombia......again good luck......

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caslug says on Jan 16, 2006, 11:27:

south..if you have friends in CALI.. then by all means go there. Your experience will be enrich due to having friends show you around and keeping you out of trouble. BUT if you have NO friends that will be living there the same time you will, then i recommend other cities(Bogota, Medellin or CTG). If you like big city choose BOG or MED, if you like hot/beach city(think Miami) then go for CTG.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 16, 2006, 11:55:

I laughed when I read Scottiec's comment that "because of the flavor of life here in America de Latinos, I could never return and LIVE in the states again." As far as I am concerned I do live in America de los Latinos. I feel sorry for those who do not live in an area with a majority Latino population whose Latino population is part and parcel of the mainstream culture. Tex-Mex rocks!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 17, 2006, 17:02:

Thank you for all of the suggestions and stories you have shared with me. I will attempt to answer everyone in this email.

Desi: I appreciate your input. I think having friends there does make a big difference, and at this point I am unsure as to whether or not I will have anyone to help show me around. I do have a friend here from Cali who told me that he would get his family to look out for me, but this is not a friend I have known for a very long time and I do not know if he will keep his word (I know that when I was in undergrad I made my decision to go to the school based on the fact that someone said they would help me and they did not). The only thing I could hope for is that the school will have someone to help me, but then again they probably will not take me into the city and show me around. If I do not have anyone there to assist me, do you suggest that I still go?

Scottie: I plan to learn all I can while in Colombia. This will make the third Latin American country that I have visited, and I hope it will be everything I think it to be...times 10! What part of Mexico are you in? I lived in Queretaro for about 7 months and I didn't care for it. However, I did meet great friends there and had very few incidents. I hope for the same in Colombia.


Caslug (any anyone else who cares to respond): I have been thoroughly warned to stay out of Bogota, so I think that might be out. As far as some of the other cities are concerned, they might be a possibility. I have been told that if I stick to the coastal areas then I should be safer. However, I do not want to go anywhere that's very hot. A teacher of mine suggested Baranquilla, which I imagine is pretty hot as well because it's near Cartagena. Do you know anything about Baranquilla that you can share with me?


Tomtom: Well, if I do the math correctly, high unemployment does mean more crime, so that is another factor I should consider. Thanks for that bit of info. I know that you have suggested Cartagena to me, but since it is a tourist town, is it very pricey?


GIB: I know that you post a lot in the forums, and in fact I read a post recently where someone said you are just like a Colombian now because you have been in Colombia for several years and have a lot of the streetsmarts one needs to survive. So, when you tell me that Cali is off your list and that even the locals are becoming more weary of the crime, I am all ears. What suggestions do you have for other cities?


Everyone: Again, I want to thank you for responding to my post. I couldn't even express in words how much you all have helped me, and I anxiously await your repsonses!

CJW

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 17, 2006, 17:12:

I think provincial attitudes might be influencing the person that told you to stay out of Bogota. Cali right now might be a toss up, a few years ago Medellin was, and a few years before that Medellin rightly deserved the title as murder capital of the world. But the large northern coastal cities and Bogota have been reasonably safe for the average person for quite a while.

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 18, 2006, 08:25:

I've re-read your original post, southern, and understand that you would be stdying and researching the salsa scene in Colombia and that is the main reason you had originally chosen Cali for your stay. I can't think of a better city in Colombia for that purpose. Will you be enrolled at one of the local universities at the same time or are you going to do independent research?

I don't quite understand what you mean by fitting in. If you are a foreigner you will be immediately recognized as being such, no matter your ethnic background, coloring or how well you speak Spanish. As a foreign female, you'll receive a lot of attention, some of it maybe unwanted. You'll have to know how to deal with it. People would be very inquisitive, friendly and hospitable, yet you'd have to know if they are just being that or if there are some ulterior motives behind it. In a city like Cali you'd have to have your guard up all the time, especially since you basically have no connections or a supportive, friendly and reliable network behind you.

Would I travel to Cali alone, being a gringa myself at this time, not having any family or friends or anybody I can really trust there? I must answer no.

Adela, are you reading this thread? What do you think?

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 18, 2006, 08:58:

Home stays? I don't know about Cali, in particular, but many schools that deal with people from outside the region (e.g. other cities, if not other countries) have host families for visiting students. These are generally good families the schools have checked out and if you don't happen to get along with one, they can usually find another for you.

It might take a phone call or e-mail to get this information, but if you have school in mind, they can probably help you with this information.

I'm not a gringa, but Desi's description of Cali is close to how I'd describe my visits.

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caslug says on Jan 18, 2006, 11:41:

Dyme, if you DONT have any good/trusted friends.. in cali, then checkout the other cities for schools. I've been to all the cities mention and found Cali the most boring and dangerous. But that's just me, because i like to go out so i go to places off the gringo trail. BOG has THE most universities in COL, it's the biggest city, so will have the most options.

As for safety, ALL cities in COL can be BOTH safe AND dangerous, if live a student lifestyle(go to school, go home, go out with friends, etc.,) you'll probably stay under the radar and nothing will happen. If you're like me and other tourist who go out at NIGHT ALOT then our risk profile is a little higher. BUT as long as you keep out of the bad areas, you'll be fairly(very) safe in ANY city.

Right now for whatever reason there seems to be a little more bad stuff happening in cali, especially in areas frequent by tourist(avienda sexta). So that is concerning to me. My recommendation again, would be checkout the other cities since you dont have any ties to cali. If you like nice weather, socal then go to MED, if you like the beach go to CTG, if you like big city, cold weather, goto BOG.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 19, 2006, 19:31:

Once again I have found all of your advice extremely helpful. Thank you to those of you who have responded.

Tinto: You are so right. Due to the fact that we all have different experiences, it tends to shape our view of a certain place. Perhaps my teacher had a bad experience in Bogota and that’s why she does not think too highly of it. She strongly recommended Barranquilla to me, but after looking at the temps, I scratched that off my list really quick. That’s why I wanted to get other people’s opinions to see what they thought of these places, and I appreciate your response.

Desi: When I originally looked for countries that had strong ties to salsa, Colombia was the first to come up. Then I learned of Cali, the salsa capital, so this has had a major influence on my decision. I plan to enroll in a university (hopefully Universidad Santiago de Cali), as well as pursue my research on the side. What I meant by “fitting in” was that I should be ok as long as I keep my mouth shut. Once I open it and my accent comes out, it’s all over! LOL. I plan to keep a low profile and try to assimilate as much as possible so that I don’t stand out. As far as having my guard up, that’s an automatic. I’m from a small town but have lived in a big city for a little over one year now, and although I cannot say that I’m 100% used to living here just yet, the one thing I am sure about is that I’m always on guard. I just hope that it will be enough to get me by in Cali, or any other part of COL if I decide to go somewhere else.

Crazy4Cali: The only options I am considering are homestays or living on campus. I do not think that I’m ready to live in an apartment there. At first, I was 100% sold on the homestay, because it’s the best way to learn some of the culture, interact with people, and experience authentic foods without having to dine out. But, I was talking with someone yesterday and they have scared me a bit with the homestay, because they presented a scenario that I did not previously consider: what if the host family tries to cause me some type of harm? Maybe I’m going overboard with it now (or perhaps it may seem that I’m being over paranoid), but then again I don’t want to be naïve. What is your take on this?

Caslug: I do like to go out as well, especially salsa dancing, which I do here at least once a week. However, until I become more familiar with my surroundings and meet locals, I probably won’t keep up that routine in Colombia. I do indeed plan to live a low profile life, and I want to learn the bad areas right away so that I won’t find myself in a bad situation (by the way, do you know the name of any of the dangerous parts?). I am hoping that my friend here will come through for me and have his brother, who lives in Cali, to look out for me. I’ve heard so much negativity about avenida Sexta that I’m scared to even go there in the daytime! LOL. I know for sure that I will not go there at night, or if I do it will be with people that I trust.


QUESTIONS FOR ANYONE WHO IS WILLING TO ANSWER THEM: I have a few questions that I cannot seem to find the answers to online despite all of my searching. Perhaps some of you can help me out? Thanks!

1.What current issues are taking place in Colombia, but especially in Cali? I’ve been reading some online newspapers, but according to a member’s post in another forum, the newspapers in COL cannot be regarded as a source for presenting ALL of the news.

2.What is the style of dress there? I will have a limited space, so I want to be sure that I bring the right type of clothing.

3.Are there any colloquialisms specific for Cali?

4.Are there any good modeling agencies? I am doing some modeling now, and would love to be able to continue while I’m abroad, if at all possible.

5.For my extranjeros…is it possible to study abroad in COL as well as find some type of part-time employment (such as teaching English)? I am unclear as to whether I can do that or not on a student visa.

6.What large city in the U.S. would Cali be most comparable with? This will help me to get an idea of what to expect as far as crime and structure is concerned.

7.What dishes (food) are typical of that region of COL?

Thank you for those of you who are willing to answer!

CJW

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 19, 2006, 20:34:

well.... WRT Homestays, I suppose something bad could happen, but I think there are too many people with money to lose to prevent that from happening. The school would lose money, the family would lose money, etc. In my experience, the schools tend to take the quality of their homestay families pretty seriously.

WRT Modeling, well, if you want to blend in, having your photo plastered all over the place is probably not the best way to do that. I'd say put the Modeling on hold while you're down there, unless, of course you don't mind all the attention.

Just look like a poor student and you'll probably be fine. If not, remember that nothing in your backpack is worth dying for.

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jalf12 says on Jan 19, 2006, 20:39:

CeCe Southern Dyme Answer to questions:
#2. Not sure about Cali but one dress style I have not see in Colombia (for women) is shorts. Girls wear pants or a skirt, I haven't seen any girls weraing daisy dukes in Colombia(but it could be different in Cali).
#4. I think you could get modeling work any where in the world;).
#5. You may not get a full time job in a large institutions with just a student visa, but from what I understand, a native english speaker can find some kind of teaching work relatively easy.

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litost says on Jan 20, 2006, 06:25:

I say follow your passion, take into account all the precautions but as far as salsa is concerned it is for sure Cali would be the place. It's not like it would be suicidal going there, just be aware of certain dangers while not letting the worries ruin your stay. If you get enrolled in a good program in a good university, quickly meet people and make friends who will orient you, you should be fine and enjoy Cali which can be a very fun city. That being said, overall I would recommend Medellin or Bogota first for someone new to Colombia.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 20, 2006, 11:09:

I've been talking to some people in Cali (a relative) for a couple of night on MSG and she says that Cali is just about the same it has always been: you have to know the people you deal with and keep your guard up, as usual, not giving papaya, in short, nothing new. She denied categorically that Cali has become more unsafe or dangerous than when I was there last time three years ago. Now, there have been many local residents who say the same, yet crime statistics show a different picture and the visiting gringos report a much worsened scene. Maybe it's become much more dangerous for gringos on Avenida Sexta and Chippy Chappy Mall but not for an average caleño? Well, I'll soon see it for myself and will be reporting back.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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caslug says on Jan 20, 2006, 14:29:

dyme, answer to your questions.. 2. Jeans, jeans, & jeans(did i say jeans?) the tighter the better! I saw VERY few miniskirt, practically NO dress(long ankle length), or knee length skirt i've seen were work uniforms. The vast majority of women(especially young/student) wear tight, hip/hugger jeans and tight, low cut t-shirt or blouse. More professional or conversative would wear fairly tight jeans, not as low, and blouse or t-shirt.

5. once you get settled into your university, just put an ad up for english tutor, all unis have a langauge center were student go to learn english(and other language). The VAST majority of the english teachers are COL, so a native speaking tutor could get some work, more than enough for beer money(of course as a girl, you probably dont have to even pay for your own beer!). BUT a student visa WILL NOT allow you to work as a LEGAL teacher(ie, english teacher at the college), you'll have to work cash based and under the table.

6. Cali reminds me of small/mid-size cities in the US, Memphis, MS, Raliegh, NC, or Bakerfield, CA comes to mind. WHile Memphis has Graceland(great place) and known for their jazz, it's not a city that I would recommend to foreigner who may have only ONE opportunity to live in the US. Just like I wouldnt recommend Cali, IF YOU HAVE opportunity to goto BOG, BOG is better. BOG is the CAPITAL, LOT more things to do, places(museums, parks, clubs, etc.,) to go, and more diverse people(you'll met student from ALL around COL in BOG). As for Salsa dancing, in BOG and MED you'll easily find tons of clubs that has salsa dancing. I've been to clubs(salsa) in BOG, CALI, & MED and found them all the same. Actually, MED has more salsa clubs than Cali(cr 70 and sabenta has tons of salsa clubs). There is one club in CALI near avienda sexta that specialize in CUBAN salsa. BUT i wouldnt choose a city because of one club. Hate to break the news to you, but in CALI there's only two main area to party avienda sexta and juanchito, juanchito is pretty dangerous, it's a poorer part of town and there's been several robberies on gringos(who went there by themselves).

Plus you can ALWAYS take a short trip to Cali during school breaks. It's like having an opportunity to live in NYC for 6 mos, would you rather exp NYC for 6 mos or Bakerfield? BOG will give you a better feel for COL, Cali is too provincial. Plus if your want to do any type of modeling, BOG or MED are the places that have more opp't. MED because it's the capital of fashion in COL and BOG because it's the media(newspaper/TV) capital. I think all the COL soap opera(telenovelas) are filmed in BOG.

7. Food, i dont think cali has any "famous" dish, MED has the tipica paisa specaility. I found the food in cali, standard meat/potatoe variety, slightly bland(IMO) but filling and cheap. If you like generic american food(steak/ribs/fry chicken, etc.,) then you find food in cali quite decent.

The ONLY reason I would goto CALI is if I had a personal connection. A GOOD friend or family. Most people here that rave about cali have this connection.

There's is NO on campus aparment or dorms in in the univeristies in Cali. All the student live either at home or regular apartment. If you plan to have a boyfriend go with your own apartment or rent from other students. Because most likely the local guy is living with his parent, and for private time you two are going to a motel unless you have your own place. Also, i think all the univerisites are in the south while all the party area area is in the north. I recommend living in the south. In BOG or MED, it's more spread out, with universities in all areas.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 20, 2006, 15:05:

2. Jeans, tank tops, anything that's sleeveless. Depending on your age (I assume you're in your twenties) you can also wear skirts, short or ankle-length made od sheerest cottons (ethnic look), lots of necklaces, bracelets, earrings etc. costume jewelry for a gipsy look. Footwear: sandals with heels; boots are too warm for Cali climate.
5. You'll get plenty of opportunity for tutoring or teaching private classes in English, but as caslug already said, it will have to be under the table. As a native English-speaker you should not work too cheap.
3.Nothing special...mira vé and a little local slang won't be an issue to confuse you. Educated caleños speak very good standard Spanish, easy for the ear and not too fast. They don't swallow the s. The rhythm and the cadence of caleño Spanish is pleasant and not too hurried.
4.I have no knowledge of this. A friend of mine used to model for swimwear in Cali and she hated it. There are lots of modelling agencies in Cali but if I were you I just wouldn't bother.
6. Miami in miniature
7.Cali's contribution to the gourmet cooking to the world: the famous Sancocho valluno de gallina , preferably cooked on a wood-burning stove
Empanadas caleñas, a delicacy.
Champus.
Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 20, 2006, 16:04:

Nothing changes here......I can see that Every time I make an exit and slide back in again, I say to myself, "I'm going to try to avoid the controversy that I tend to get suckered into." It never works out that way though.

Once again, I read a bunch of utter lunacy. First of all Southern_Dyme, coming to this web site and inquiring as to whether it is safe to go Cali, is like asking a mother if her daughter is pretty. You will never get a realistic or unbiased opinion on this web site. And the Colombian people who tell you that "they are certain" that you will fit in...what is that based on? Do you look like a Colombian. Can you even speak Spanish? You are NOT Colombian. Therefore, even if you do speak Spanish, or look Colombian for that matter, you will NOT fit in because you do not speak Spanish like a Colombian.

Now I just read in a few posts about you having Colombian friends in Cali to look after you. I don't have any idea where these people gleaned that info from. Your post clearly says that your Colombian friends are in the US. In fact, if you had Colombian friends in Cali, logic dictates that you would not have to inquire about the safety of Cali from people on a web site that you don't even know.

"However, I cannot think of anywhere else that has a great salsa scene, which is what I'm doing the majority of my research on for my thesis." REALLY???

You can't think of anywhere better that has a great Salsa scene? I can, try Puerto Rico. Salsa has much more roots there than in Colombia. In fact, you can count on one hand, how many well known groups/salseros are from Colombia. And I will go a step further, with the exception of Grupo Niche, there has not been one group that has ever risen to the level of noteriety that Puerto Rican groups have enjoyed. Not one. Puerto Rico, contributed more to the Salsa scene in one year, than Colombia has in an entire era. If you look back to the grand old days of true folkloric salsa, the Fania days, almost all of the Salseros and groups, were Puerto Rican. In fact, I can't think of one Fania All Star that was Colombian. There were Cubans (Monguito,Celia Cruz Machito, and Dominicans (Pacheco), Panama (Blades),Venezuelans (Deleon) and Americans(Harlow) but no Colombians. As to how many Puerto Ricans there are.....try hundereds. Besides, Salsa is NOT, and has not been the dominant music in Colombia period for many years. In Colombia as a whole, popularity of Vallenatos far exceeds that of Salsa.

SAFETY
The word Safety and Cali don't belong in the same sentence IF you are going there as a student, and you don't have a very close network of friends or family to instruct you where and where you cannot go. You are a tourist. And tourists by definition like to explore. Exploring places in Cali that have the appearance of being relatively benign, are in fact not so benign. Kidnapping is the worse thing that can happen to you. But street crime is abundant. Colombian street thieves are all too adept at being able to detect, target,and victimize a tourist so quickly, you will not even know anything happened to you.
My feelings....forget Cali. And by the way, Medellin is not much better. If you aren't going to study in Cartagena (the safest city on the mainland) then go to the capitol, Bogota. It is the safest city of all of the big ones. Even there you will have to know the rules as to where you may or may not go. But relatively speaking, you are safer there than either Cali or Medellin.

I'm waiting for the Cali lovers to come on here and trash what I say because they are so good at being in denial. That said, consider yourself warned. Hey, if you really want to get a more objective opinion (and this is really going to bring on the heat now) go to the US State Department Counselor information/travel advisory about Colombia. While even I think there is a bit of embellishment of reality here, for the most part, it contains more truth than untruth.

Good Luck
G5

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juanalejo says on Jan 20, 2006, 17:26:

G5 Nice to hear that you are disqualifying the opinion of Southern_Dyme´s friends for being Caleños living abroad, but last time I recall you also live somewhere in the USA. So what qualifies your opinion as valid and theirs as invalid?

My opinion says as usual things are not as good as they should be, but far better than the media reports. I had a blast over Christmas holidays in the Feria, heard of a few incidents specially during the cabalgata, but then again there were twice the riders on the streets than the year immediately before.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 20, 2006, 17:38:

Juanalejo...2 points First, you seem to be forgeting the fact that I too am a Colombian by birth. So for that matter, I too am a Colombian living abroad. That leads to my second point. Colombian in the US tend to always down play Colombia's security situation in the US when they are talking to Americans. State simply, Colombians never like to talk bad about Colombia in front of Gringos. And lord help you if you are a Colombian talking to an American and casting Colombia in a negative light in front of other Colombians. Then my fellow Colombians really get angry at me.

Look Juanalejo, give me a break. One. This is a grings. Two. She has no friends or family in Cali. 3. She clearly will stand out 4. Cali is riddled with crime, and an almost nonexistant police force, and you would dare say that this woman should go to Cali to live and study?

Yea right.....some where along the line even you too have to face reality. Besides, you live in BOG, so you KNOW that BOG is safer than Cali. So don't even go there.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 20, 2006, 17:39:

gomezman, I guess you were referring to me when you were speaking of *cali lovers* and rightly so. Had you read what I have been telling to Southern_dyme about Cali you'd see that I'm not recommending her to travel to Cali all by herself and with no friends there to look after her. I've only been trying to give her my honest appreciation on the current situation in Cali, according to what I have been able to scrounge together from talking to real, live caleños, living currently in Cali, impressions from recent visitors to Cali and what I've been reading in the media. I didn't think I was in denial. I will be booking my trip to Cali early next week and as I said before, will be reporting back. When was the last time you were in Cali?

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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felipenunez says on Jan 20, 2006, 17:48:

Hi Southern_Dyme My name is Felipe, and I'm a Colombian native from Cali. Besides coursing my Bachelor's degree for 4 years at a Canadian University and my Master's (convocation is in a week ;) from a Swedish University, I have spent my entire life in Cali. I love it, of course I am a local. However, it is quite a big town (3 million), and you can find everything for everyone. There are some parts in town that definitively should be avoided. Caslug mentioned to get an apartment close to the bullfight ring,that is a good area, being close to most universities. However, salsa and partying are mostly located in the north side. I live in the West side and it is pretty safe. Of course, I avoid walking alone at night, having companions is always a good idea.
I will be moving to Cali the 3rd of Feb, just right after receiving my Masters degree. If the is a way I can help you while being Cali, I would be more happy to provide you with it. You can tell me in advance if you have an apartment or not, I actually can even quote some rates for you.
As for dressing styles... jeans are the most common. It is a laid back environment.
I disagree with Caslug however, i nthe sense of Bogotá and Medellín having the same type of Salsa partying to Cali. I lived in Bogotá during 2004 while working there, and I am telling you, if you want true salsa, you have to make it to Cali. First of all, most people from Bogotá don´t even know how to dance, and if someone is a good dancer, he or she is probable from some other place. Medellín is better though,but I would never compared it to Cali.
Have to go now... would have loved to tell you more thing I know about my town. If you are interested this is my MSN address: negronunez at hotmail.com
Have a good weekend

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 20, 2006, 17:50:

Actually Desi...I was not thinging of you I read your post, and you were one of the few people that seemed willing to take a more balanced approach. What the hell are you jumping on me for?

The above said, I don't need to live in Cali to know what's happening there. I don't live in East St. Louis, Illinois or in Gary, Indiana to know about the dangers that may confront me if I decided to move there.

Also, I think you have lost perspective on something else. You lived in Cali. You know Cali. Because you were married to a Colombian, and you lived in cali, you probably speak Spanish with a Colombian accent. Don't you think that by definition, you are in a much better, and therefore safer position to live in Cali then a Gringa tourist who knows nobody in Cali and in reality, contrary to what some Colombian people here have said, does NOT "fit in." Enough said

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juanalejo says on Jan 20, 2006, 17:59:

G5 Nobody said she will fit in, an American can be spotted even in the middle of London, so that is not the point. Can she go to Cali and if playing it on the safe side, follow some rules, avoid some places and have a wonderful time, yes. I am glad Mr. Nuñez stepped in and offered his help with some real balanced approach of how real life goes around in Cali. And G5, I remember you are from Cali, just as this girls friends are too, I was just questioning why you were entitled to a credible opinion if you thought they are not. And by the way my father´s family is all from Cali, that is why I drive there at least twice a year. Last time I was there, two weeks ago.

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felipenunez says on Jan 20, 2006, 18:01:

Gomez... G5, you are actually right in a lot of things... However I feel you are taking a cursing approach, kind of letting someone know something bad will happen. Anyways, I liked your discussion of Salsa and its major artists (Puerto Ricans) including Fania. I think Southern Dyme should be more clear in stating exactly what is her research about. If it about salsa origins, then Cali is not the place. If it is about how salsa plays a major role in life and life styles, I believe it is a good place where to start.
Hope you have good comments for me... ;)

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caslug says on Jan 20, 2006, 18:23:

if dyme has opp't to study in BOG or Cali.. why choose cali? BOG is much better, with more place of interest and things to do. There's really nothing in Cali that you cant find in BOG, but there's LOTS of stuff in BOG that you CANT find in cali. If her MAIN reason to study abroad is to learn about salsa, as GMAN said, there are other countries and other cities. If her intention is to experience COL culture, then BOG has all of that AND she can still travel from BOG to other cities, like Cali while she lives and study in BOG.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 20, 2006, 18:29:

So, G'man, do you feel about PBH like Michael Corleone in The Godfather? "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

I love these pissing contests.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 20, 2006, 19:12:

Look......everyone Juanalejo.....How can you forget man? My family is from Bogota. %100 Rolo. But still, I know Cali.Still, like Caslug says, Bogota is a much better place than Cali for a gringa to study. From a cultural perspective, tourist perspective, you can't compare Cali to Bogota.

Now if you are a single guy, and you want to know more about ....about....about some other aspects of Colombia, than stopover in Cali may not be such a bad idea.

Felipe, thanks for the compliment. I just laugh when I hear these goofs compare Colombia's contribution to Salsa to that of Puerto Rico. It's sort of comical.

And UC, maybe it's in my blood. I'm destined to subject myself to PBH, and I'll probably be back here in my next life. Heated exchanges and all. I really like everyone here. Even Juanalejo is good guy. So what if he like to be contrary. Sometimes I swear, if I say it's black, he will say it's white. But one thing I will say about Juan, he knows Bogota as well as anyone on this site. That I am convinced of.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 22, 2006, 15:08:

I must say that I had a very entertaining time reading all of your posts. Who needs soap operas when you have all of this action going on in here! LOL. But do you know what? As interested as this reading has been, I'm more confused than ever about what to do! Some people say go for it (Cali), others say stay away from it, and I don't know what to do anymore. I just know that I HAVE to get out of the U.S.

FOR THOSE WHO SAID STUDY SALSA ELSEWHERE
The reason I did not choose Puerto Rico (as some of you suggested) is because I have a good friend of mine who is studying in PR this entire schoolyear (she has been there since August and will be returning this May) and she informed me that the younger generation is more into reggaeton now than salsa. If I were to go to school there, I would be in more contact with the younger crowd. I'm not saying that I couldn't go out and meet a more mature crowd and conduct my interviews, but it wouldn't be as accessible as it would if I could interview my peers. I think Caslug mentioned something about Cuban salsa. Nothing would please me more than to go to Cuba (if only I could). In fact, the place I go salsa every week here is a Cuban spot, but as you mentioned, I shouldn't choose a city because of one club. I definitely agree on that.

Someone suggested I give more detail as to the research that I will be doing. More or less what I will do is take certain songs and examine the lyrical content. From the music my Colombian friends here have suggested that I listen to and their accounts of growing up in Colombia, there are a lot of themes that the people face that are addressed in the songs. Now, before someone mentions this (because I know it's coming if I don't state that I'm aware of it already) I am fully aware that I do not need to come to Colombia to actually do this, nor Cali for that matter. I know this. However, I wanted to go to an area that is prominent in salsa so that I can absorb the "sensation" a little more, and maybe gain some other insight that I didn't have previously. Another part of my research will be to conduct interviews, and perhaps find some other songs that will enhance my thesis (there is slim pickings here).

WHY I DID NOT CHOOSE BOGOTA
The main reason I did not include Bogota as a choice of possible study is because I do not know anyone there, nor anyone who has friends there. I do not directly know anyone in Cali either, but as I have mentioned before, I'm counting on my friend here to come through and tell his brother to look out for me. He also said that the school was a good school, which is another important factor for me. His parents live in Buenaventura, so if I wanted to get away for a weekend visit and see something different, from what he said it's only about 2 hours from Cali. As you can probably tell from my posts up here, I am somewhat afraid of the unknown, and I do not like stepping into a pot of boiling water. So if I have someone to show me around, maybe the water is only lukewarm and not boiling (Cali=lukewarm b/c of possible contacts, Bogota=boiling b/c of no contacts). However, if it is as dangerous as many of you say, then I'm skeptical. Like I mentioned before (I think), my friend has been here in the U.S. nearly 5 years now, so I don't know if things have worsened since then. I'm trying to take that into account as well. I just want to make a very educated decision, because time is drawing near for me to start putting some money down on this venture, and I'm so unsure as to what I should do now.

Felipe, thank you so much for offering your help. I will definitely be emailing you.

Desi, I appreciate you communicating with your family who lives there on my behalf. I'll be looking for the details of your trip when you come back.

As far as Colombians having a valid opinion if they are away from the country....I'm not even touching that one! LOL. I am not in a position to say whether their opinion is valid or not. I think what the bottom line is that everyone will have a different perception of a certain place because we all are different, our interests and activities vary, so on and so forth. So I think that's the reason that their outtake on Cali (which is positive) and some of the other PBH members accounts (some positive, some negative) are so different. I do appreciate hearing the good and bad, so I am thankful for all of your accounts, suggestions, and advice. Thank you also for those of you who answered some of the questions on my list. I can definitely do jeans!

As always, I appreciate you all. You are great people to take time out of your day to help a stranger out.

CJW

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 22, 2006, 17:48:

It's always the same thing People don't come here looking for an honest opinion. They coming here to hear what they want to hear. It sounds like to me, like almost all others who come here, you have made up your mind that you are going, you just wanted some people to say...go for it. The people who gave you valid reasons not to go, you just shrugg off You fit the mold Southern....nothing new here. I noticed that in how you thanked all the people who gave you empty phrases as to why you should go, but when someone gives you a logical reason why you should not go, no comment on your end. Very strange, but typical happening here.

Look lady, Cali is not safe place for a single gringa to study. And to think that you can just rely on a friend's brother to be your guiding lignt, is kind of shallow. It's your life And you only have one. There are many places to go and study in latin American, why you would pick a place like Cali Colombia, is something you and only you would know.

BTW, Salsa is not opera. The songs don't exactly have these complex themes, and "involved: lyric content. That's comical. I have a selection of over 900 salsa Cds. It's the same subjects again and again. In fact, the only music that I know is more simplistic than salsa is Mexico's nortena. Now if you really want to study some complex themes in Latin American music, vallenatos, the dominant music in all of Colombia right now, clearly has some more interesting lyrics and themes than salsa.....no comparison. Vallenatos often is like a soap opera put to music. It is a commentary on life. But salsa???? I don't know what Salsa you are listening too.

Well what ever you decide to do.....good luck

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 22, 2006, 18:46:

To G5 First of all, let me say that I do take into consideration EVERY piece of advice, good or bad, and normally I try to respond to all posts (please reread my other posts). I may not have done that tonight, because there have been many responses since my last visit and I unfortunately do not have hours to sit here tonight and respond to each one. If I was only taking into account the positive things people had to say, then I still would not be in this dilemma and would've paid the necessary funds to start my program in Cali. However, after listening to also the negative stuff, I am very aprehensive about going. I just want to get a general consensus of what everyone thinks, and at this point there are mixed feelings about Cali.

As far as the brother is concerned, I do realize that I cannot totally depend on him. In fact, if he is anything like his brother who is here, he must be very unreliable! That was also another concern (which I addressed in a previous post) that he might not be there to help me and I would be on my own.

The salsa thing...my reason for choosing salsa music would have to be because I'm really into it (#1 reason). And yes, there are various themes that are expressed via salsa, some more meaningful than others. However, for a professional document like a thesis, my theme has to be focused, so therefore my selection of salsa music is also focused. I listen to the real consciencious salsa (artists such as Joe Arroyo, Fruko, Grupo Niche, just to name a few) who touch on real issues in some of their songs. Some of the songs that I have been working with, just to give you an idea, are "Rebelion," "Han cogido la cosa," "Colombia tierra querida", just to name a few. I'm looking at factors such as nationalism, racism, identity, etc. I am hoping to find other musical selections if I go to Colombia, because stuff like that is a little harder to find here. And I have not ruled out other genres. I cannot include them all, because as I mentioned the thesis has to be very focused, but I have considered other genres with significant lyrical content. If you could suggest some other styles to consider that would be great.

And, believe it or not, I have been looking at other countries for possible study. I will be going to PR in March for about a week, then Ecuador again this summer. People have been trying to convince me to go to Quito for a semester and study there, but from what I saw last summer there was not a big salsa scene, and to be quite honest I did not like it there. I loved it in Esmeraldas, but there is no school for me to study at. Plus it seemed to be all about reggaeton, and I'm not a big fan of that style of music.

So, in closing, I just wanted to let you know that I do consider what everyone says up here, be it good or bad. I am not 100% sold on Cali just yet, but doing what I think is right by being cautious and asking those who know. I appreciate your comments as well as the others.

Thanks for wishing me good luck

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 22, 2006, 19:29:

Thanks Southern Dyme for your personal response Interestingly enough, Joe Arroyo was really the only persons, (limited to the songs you mentioned, among a few others) that really gets into any social commentary. Niche??? Uh...great music, but "messages"??? I can't see it.

As to your assertion that Regaton is the wave in PR, I would say only to an extent. So has Bachata for that matter. But, the exact same is true for Salsa. Cali is not the hot spot for Salsa that it was back in the 90's and early 2000. Believe it or not, Bachata, and Regaton, as swept Cali as well. Look, if you are going to be doing some type of thesis on Salsa, how can you possible do a thesis about a form of music from a country that represents less than 3% of all the major salsa groups that really played a dominant role in the Salsa scene. As to Joe Arroyo, and Fruko, they barely qualify as a Salsa group, and traditionally are categorized under the general category of Salsa music. In fact, if you ask any Puerto Rican about their opinion the Salsa music of Joe Arroyo, most PRs will tell you they never even heard of him. That my friend is a fact.The bottom line is if you are going to be doing any kind of thesis on Salsa, Puerto Rico is the ONLY place you can go to really get a feel for the music and understand it in a way that will assist you in writing a thesis. While there may be a movement among today's youth toward other music, you fail to recognize that salsa is still so embedded in the music scene, music like regaton, and bachata will come and go, (as did merengue), while salsa will be around well into the next generation...

As to your safety.....look, forget this nonsense about the need to go to Cali for your thesis. Your safety should be a concern that will take precedent over any area of study.....Like I wrote earlier, PBH is not the place to ask people about safety and Colombia. I have been here a long time (comparitively speaking)and this is the last place you can go for an objective opinion....Check out the many other sites that speak to the issue of travel safety in general, and not a web site that speaks only about a given country. This web site is just a big cheering squad for Colombia, I often call it the unofficial extention of Colombia's bureau of tourism.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 22, 2006, 21:33:

I don't think reggaeton will go any more than merengue has gone. I still think Elvis Crespo and Olga Tañon are the bomb. Both of them Puerto Ricans by the way.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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litost says on Jan 23, 2006, 05:26:

Gomezman5, you really have a nack for sounding like an arrogant and intolerant modefoque... so it turns out your opinion is the ONLY one this girl should be listening to because the rest is just "empty phrases"? Anything said on here not in tune with your own personal bitter view of things should not even be taken into consideration?

"This web site is just a big cheering squad for Colombia" you say...

Well, we try to give balanced information, warn about possible risks... but HELL YEAH I think Colombia needs people to talk about the positive aspects, it's a freaking great place and worth the trouble even if you don't think so, why does in piss you off so much? Your condescending tone and lack of respect for others' opinions don't speak very well of you and undermine the validity of what you say.

Whatever your decision Southern Dyme, I wish you mucha suerte, and hope you keep seing the glass half full not like some other lost cases...

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Albatross says on Jan 23, 2006, 06:03:

"Han cogido la cosa" rocks with extreme prejudice... awesome percussion and the trumpets are PERFECT... (will you marry me ?)

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Jan 23, 2006, 06:09:

But... Gomezman5 is close to the mark... no way is Cali "safe" for a Gringa Tourist.

What I think is funny is how many "native" Colombians here at PBH trip all over themselves to downplay the danger in Colombia... even though the statistics are unambigious and irrefutable. Some even insist that Colombian cities are safer than American cities... (excuse me a moment while I laugh myself silly)

What they fail to point out is that while a native Colombian may be able to go about their life in Colombia in relative safety (although native Colombians get robbed or killed all the time) a Tourist, especially a single woman, is a very different story. Tourists are targets... always... everywhere.

On the other hand, life is full of risk, so if you want to go, then go. If you get back unscathed (and you probably will... you would have to be pretty unlucky to have major problems on your first trip) then you can brag to your friends about your bravado and skill as a single girl facing danger alone. (Who knows, maybe you'll even learn something ;-)

Good Luck...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 23, 2006, 06:20:

UC reggaeton? restregon more like it...

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caslug says on Jan 23, 2006, 10:56:

salsa in cali.. I've been to TONS of salsa clubs in CALI and observe the dancing. While every COL(in any city) dance salsa BETTER than in the USA. 80% of the men only know the basic steps, 20% are VERY GOOD and VERY fun to watch. The good ones do very intricate moves and you can actually learn from them watching them.

As for reggaeton, MOST young kids(25 or under) are going to techno/hip hop club NOT to salsa clubs. At TRUE salsa clubs you see more late twenties or up. In cali, there's a very popular(expensive) place to see live band playing good salsa(it's in the Hotel Torres), the majority of the customer are mid/late twenties and up. Even in Avendia Sexta which is the main strip for salsa clubs, reggaeton/spanish rock is get's half the play, Cali only has a few clubs that's exclusive for salsa(teinda vieja comes to mind, but that place is ONLY popular sunday evening.)

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 23, 2006, 12:37:

Por que dices este, Kat? Esto Por que dices esto, Kat? Estoy parte mongolico y no te entendí.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Monpirri says on Jan 23, 2006, 14:51:

If you really want to go to Cali, go to Cali!! If you want to travel to foreign city, listen to the people who live there or have family in that city. For instance, if you want to travel to New York, you don't go and buy the Dallas Morning News to find out more about NYC.
Never mind the news from other countries, friends or foes, and never mind the paranoid comments from people who are not savvy travelers, or comments from people who do not travel to that city or country all the time!
Let me share this, when I traveled to Colombia for the first time, I was born in Colombia, I heard lots of negative comments on traveling to Colombia from the media in the states. I have also noticed the same routine news here on PBH, "US State Department Counselor information/travel advisory about Colombia" the very same rhetoric I experienced about eight years ago when I decided to travel to Bogotá, Medellín, Villavicencio and Cali!
Even my own family discouraged me back then and now to travel to Colombia, why? Because they were and they are still over saturated with the ongoing negative press, but I went there anyway and I had a great time and I did not experience any of the terror broadcasted on by the concerned press.
Of course, I did not look for trouble, or visited notorious areas or spent all my free time in bars. I say, use your comment sense and stay away from places that are notorious for trouble. If you cannot tell which places not to visit, ask your instructors, classmates or let us know on this site.
Please, do travel within the city with your new acquaintances at all the times! Even soldiers travel in couples when they are touring a city.
By the way, you do not need "friends" waiting for you in the city to enjoy your visit there. You will gain lots of honest friends over there and many Colombians do care and welcome visitors.

Last thing, while in Colombia, write an empirical thesis about Colombia's national music, "Cumbia" and you will discover Colombia’s culture!
“Cumbia is the queen of Colombian tropical rhythms. There is the aesthetic value of the dance itself, the colorful dress of the dancers, the ever present joy in its performance and the distinctive flavor of the coastal region where it was born.”
GONZALEZ SALSAMANIA
Cumbia is several centuries old and its roots have touched various popular music today, the other music you intend to write about, which it is a nice music too, it has been adapted in Cali.
Learn more about cumbia here: http://www.cumbiaspirit.com/

Enjoy Colombia and Cali!

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 23, 2006, 21:19:

Albatross, You are a sensible guy and litost....well.... Litost, look, you are the guy that makes posts in one thread, that are responses to posts in other threads. And anyone who uses the words "mododfoque" makes a statement about realm he/she is coming from in the first place. Helllllloooo litost.

Albatross, I'm happy to see you were able to understand why I think a gringa might want to find another place, a safer place, to study other than Cali. It kind of astonishes me how people like litost, has a hard time recognizing obvious.....unless.....unless.....he is a member of the cheering squad that views all the negative publicity about security in Colombia as a bunch of lies. Have I got it right litost????

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juanalejo says on Jan 24, 2006, 04:14:

G5, why can you not present your own opinion as such without having to disqualify others by insulting them. If Litost has a different point of view, maybe he does have a different experience, is it that difficult for you to accept that? I was in Cali in December I saw a lot of gringos, not sure if most of them had family with them, probably, but still quite a few gringos. My own family gringos were also there, they moved around comfortably on their own and nothing happened to them. So please do respect others opinions that are as valid as yours, with the big difference that ours are from the local point of view and yours from long a way Chicago point of view. And yes Cali is not the safest of cities, but neither is Rio de Janeiro and lots of American flock to that place every year. Maybe because those who go there are those who know how to travel, if you don´t, then stay out of Colombia also.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2006, 08:18:

Look Juanalejo.....read before you type In all of my posts in this thread, I never said a word about litost. Then, out of nowhere, he starts hurling personal attacks about me. For example:
1. "your own personal bitter view of things should not even be taken into consideration?"

2."Your condescending tone and lack of respect for others'"

So, the above comments about me, don't warrant a response. Quit changing the context, and stick with the fact as they were set forth. The bottom line is if you are going to come after me, you become fair game for an attack FROM me as well.

And lastly Juan, when it comes to negative comments, and sarcasm, you are right up there with the best of em'.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2006, 08:23:

By the way Juan...Rio? Rio? You are actually going to compare Rio to Cali. Now that is about as comical as it gets. First of all. Juan, what are you taking this morning? Because you better lay off that stuff. Cali has never, and will never be the vacatio mecca that Rio is. Second of all, last I knew, Cali does not have a beach, nor does it have an ocean for that matter. That's just for starters.

While Rio has seen an increase in crime, very little of it has been against tourists (aside from common street crime)how can you possible compare the two cities? really....

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Rikito says on Jan 24, 2006, 08:58:

ummm not so fast check out http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13497283,00.html

...and so it goes

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:55:

OK Rikito,,,,,,,so what's your point? A bus load of tourists get held up on the way from the airport in Rio, and that incident in and of itself puts Rio on the same level as Cali Colombia? That evidence is rather anecdotal. Don't you think?

I remember when European tourists were getting robbed in Miami as they drove away from the rental car establishments on the way to Miami Beach. One guy was killed. After that, it was reported in many tourist magazines throughout the world how dangerous it was to go to Miami. Well, the City of Miami put up better signage, some more law enforcment, and finally, caught the guys responsible for the hold ups and the killing. Bingo, problem solved. After that, Miami Beach tourism rebounded, and in fact increased All was forgotten.

The same goes for Rio. There are going to be criminals everywhere from time to time. But Cali....uh excuse me. With a guerilla/civil war, kidnappings, extorsion, and almost relentless street crime, and you are going to compare it to Rio? Yea sure....some comparison

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litost says on Jan 24, 2006, 13:47:

Sorry if it seems like an insult G5, I'm just calling them like I see them. Not being as fluent as yourself in english (not my native language) it's harder for me to insult others and be cynical between lines. Anyways, getting into personal arguements over the internet is stupid, all I really would like is for you to show a little more respect for dissenting views and imagine at least for a minute that others may have experiences just as valid as yourself to share.

Of course Cali is not as safe as american or european cities, of course she would have to be extra careful, of course it would be wiser to maybe try Bogota, Medellin or Cartagena... but all that said if she is set on going to Cali than all I can do is wish her good luck and to have fun, all things taken into the account the actual chances of something really bad happening to you are very slim if you keep out of trouble. And I do think that there are many other cities in LA just as dangerous as Cali.

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juanalejo says on Jan 24, 2006, 13:52:

Rio G5, you definitelly do not know Rio, or the kidnap rate on that city, or the crime statistics, or the homicide rate, so lets stop it here. Just go back to your own Chicago, it seems that is the only place you seem to any thing real about. Let me think, I was there in November and my hotel staff would not allow me to walk out with my watch on. And my company had a bullet proof car for me to move around. Let me think, it must have been to prevent me from falling in love with a darling carioca. Now is Rio a horrible place, no, on the contrary but once you get the hang of it, you can easily move around. But then again same goes for Cali.

Southern_Dyme: You problably are fed up with all this useless crap, the same all year round. Those who want to justify why them or their wifes should live abroad vs. those who live here and see things from a different perspective. The truth should be some where in the middle, and you will have to guess it or experience it on your own. If you are heading to Quito take a short visit to Cali. Quito, of which you say you know about, does not have a very good reputation in real traveller forums like Lonely Planet, contrary to most peoples opinion on Cali or for that matter most of Colombia.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2006, 14:36:

Look litost Everyone has their style of writing. And by the way, your English is excellent so you don't have any reason to defend yourself in that area.

Also, if you want to participate in/on PBH, you have to have thick skin. That particularly applies to me. I put for logical common sense arguments, and for the most part, these arguments are demurred, and people come back with the same old sillines. "Go and have a good time." "Be extra carefull". I could say the same about going to Iraq, or some other country similarly situated. It still would not make any sense. Just ask that young female journalist who was kidnapped in Iraq. I am sure everyone told her it would be ok to go. They probably told her all the lines that people here tell people about going to Cali. Same nonsense, same result...

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 24, 2006, 16:50:

To G5...about the salsa Actually, Grupo Niche has quite a few songs that deal with real topics. I'm not saying that every single song on their album does, but I have found a good amount that do.

And please believe me when I say that my safety is my primary concern. I can't complete my thesis and research if anything happens to me, so of course that is #1.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 24, 2006, 16:55:

Albatross Yeah that song is right on point. I love it, and it works very well for the arguments I am presenting in my thesis. Now, on what you had to say about being a gringa in Cali...what do you think about Cartagena? I know that several members have mentioned to me that it is very safe. When I looked it up, I noticed that it was on the coast (not a very big turn on, because it must be hot and humid, whereas from what I've been told, Cali is just hot...LOL). Also, is it very touristy? Whatever city I go with, I want it to have an authentic flair, and most tourist spots try to cater to their visitors by adding elements that are considered "agreeable" to them. Is there any salsa in CTG?

Thanks!

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 24, 2006, 16:59:

Caslug Thanks for the suggestions on salsa clubs. If you say that 80% of the men know the basics, then that works for me. One thing I'm not too keen on is what I call "ballroom salsa"...LOL. Those are the spots that salsa for show, and in my opinion less for enjoyment. The places I go here attract a lively audience who just like to dance, feel the music, and have fun. And the "late twenties and up" crowd...I can get with that. Being 25 myself, that sounds perfect for me.

Thanks again.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 24, 2006, 17:03:

Monpirri Thank you for being so informative. And you have given me another angle for possible study...cumbia! I am not sure if I have heard cumbia (I probably have and just did not know the name of the genre). Can you suggest any songs/artists so that I can look them up and hear what it sounds like? Is there any specific part of Colombia where cumbia is more prominent?

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 24, 2006, 17:07:

Juanalejo What are they saying about Quito (besides there not being much to do...LOL). I will see what I can do about travelling there. It might be a little difficult, because the month that I will spend in Quito/surrounding areas will be as a tour leader for a bunch of college students, so I won't have the liberty to travel much. I'll have to check out that site you mentioned.

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adela says on Jan 24, 2006, 20:07:

from my caleña perspective

Cali is what Desi and others are describing: more secure than you imagine or equal to big cities in the world: good and bad places to stay.

Recently, I realized Cali is safer than I imagined: a member of PBH, arrived to Cali and called me at 10:00 pm asking me for some place to stay. He remarked his biggest concern: lower price of rental. The taxy driver took him to the cheaper hotel in the very "olla" of Cali (next to Hospital San Juan de Dios, you know Desi, what I'm saying). He prefered to stay there until find some apartment for USD 100 month apartment (!!).

Some days later, he is ok,found his apartment and seem interested in visiting the hotel again just in case. He walks the zone around and have a security tips. I hope he read this and post his view of Cali and the dangerous zone.


Then, Southern- Dyme I could say: stay aware but enjoy Cali. Yes, Cali is the ideal place to compose your thesis!!

http://www.caliescali.com/salsaysalsa.php3

Màs fe, màs abrazos, màs besos, màs disculpas, màs visitas a nuestros amigos antiguos nos haràn màs plenos cada vez. (Wishing to practice my listening in English virtually)

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adela says on Jan 24, 2006, 20:07:

from my caleña perspective

Cali is what Desi and others are describing: more secure than you imagine or equal to big cities in the world: good and bad places to stay.

Recently, I realized Cali is safer than I imagined: a member of PBH, arrived to Cali and called me at 10:00 pm asking me for some place to stay. He remarked his biggest concern: lower price of rental. The taxy driver took him to the cheaper hotel in the very "olla" of Cali (next to Hospital San Juan de Dios, you know Desi, what I'm saying). He prefered to stay there until find some apartment for USD 100 month apartment (!!).

Some days later, he is ok,found his apartment and seem interested in visiting the hotel again just in case. He walks the zone around and have a security tips. I hope he read this and post his view of Cali and the dangerous zone.


Then, Southern- Dyme I could say: stay aware but enjoy Cali. Yes, Cali is the ideal place to compose your thesis!!

http://www.caliescali.com/salsaysalsa.php3

Màs fe, màs abrazos, màs besos, màs disculpas, màs visitas a nuestros amigos antiguos nos haràn màs plenos cada vez. (Wishing to practice my listening in English virtually)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2006, 20:41:

Southern dyme Look, you said it yourself. Your safety is your primary concern. And your thesis is well.......just that, your thesis. No thesis is sacrificing your life.

Maybe I can sum it up this way. You have heard a bunch of people (I'm not one of them) that tell you it's ok for you to go. A few tell you not to go. If you are a thesis candidate, than I am sure you are smart enough to go to NEUTRAL sites to investigate the safety issue in regards to Cali, and Colombia in general. I an CERTAIN, you will get an opinion that runs contrary to the dominant theme you are reading here. Now that said, why should Cali even be an issue at this point? As far as I am concerned, if there even a minimal chance that your safety might be compromised, isn't that a reason right there, in and of itself to nix this trip. In other words, since safety IS an issue, and the issue in and of itself in in contorversy, Why would you even have Cali on the map at this point? I am 100 % certain, that if you told your parent or boyfriend that there is a safety issue, they would tell you, "look sweetie, doing a thesis on Salsa is great but, find another place to study Salsa." Or to put it another way, if you decided to go to Puerto Rico to do your thesis on Salsa, the safety issue would not even be an issue....period.

I can't help but reiterate, Colombia's contribution to Salsa is barely on the map. The amount of groups that contributed to Salsa's folkloric days or modern days can be counted on ONE HAND. Even Colombians that like to talk about the likes of groups like Guayacan, are not even heard up in the Salsa world at large. In other words, if you go to Puerto Rico, or the Dominican Republic, or Venezuela, Guayacan would not even be heard of in most circles. But Colombian act like this groups rival groups like El Gran Combo. To write a good thesis in any area, you need a diverse range of information and subjects. I have a hard time understanding how Cali would be an ideal place to do your thesis where to put it bluntly......the pickings are few. Grupo Nich, Jow Arroyo, and FRuko y tus tesos, is not exactly what I would call a broad subject range to study. State simply, Cali is not the place to do the thesis and Puerto Rico is rivaled by no other place.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 22:49:

Having been to Puerto Rico several times, I think I'd rather take my chances in Colombia when it comes to safety. Still, if studying salsa was my objective, I would have to choose Cuba and Puerto Rico.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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miamimike says on Jan 24, 2006, 23:01:

Study Salsa... No need to travel overseas--Come to Miami !!

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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Monpirri says on Jan 25, 2006, 05:33:

Southern_Dyme I have posted several threads about Cumbia here on PBH. Unfortunately, Cumbia does not have a lot of back up by some natives because they are always going to like the foreign influence. Cumbia is prominent in Medellin and la Costa and in the Pacific Coast.
If you are daring you can still write about Cumbia, it needs a positive journalistic contribution since this genre is a veteran in age and still rocking and you can also write about Colombian Salsa. Cali holds the second place in the world in this class.
I will find out the artists and the great Cumbia songs soon.

P.S. I like Salsa music also, but Cumbia is 100% Colombian and it needs a fair exposure,honor and credit.

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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litost says on Jan 25, 2006, 05:49:

G5, you say you "put for logical common sense arguments" and then go off comparing Cali to Iraq!!! Anybody with a little common sense, and heck even current events knowledge, knows this is a ridiculously inaccurate comparison. It seriously makes me doubt just how much you really know about Colombia. BTW, I am no salsa expert so I could not give an academic opinion to the thesis subject... but I do know salsa is big in Cali, it is a passion, intricated with the culture and history of the city, still very authentic, so I think it is exactly what Southern Dyme is looking for. Cali has some serious crime problems, and honestly is far from my favorite city in Colombia, but I feel my duty to insist that it's not a warzone since some want to make it out as so, it has plenty of nice neighborhoods, malls, restaurants, cafes, good universities, friendly and positive people, beautiful surroundings, etc... definitely worth it!

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Monpirri says on Jan 25, 2006, 06:18:

GringoD "Wear sunglasses with mirrors on them, (and don't forget to check the mirrors, every once in awhile.)"
That is funny!! I would like to buy a pair of those glasses for my next trip, do they sale them in Cali?

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:21:

GringoD....you have a point.... "I think GM5 forgets what it is like to be 23 or 25 years old. Most, I think, are/were willing to take more risks in our youth"

I think that is probably the most valid post in this entire thread. I do lose track of that sometimes. However, I am not so sure that just because youth are willing to be more adventurous, that it is such a good idea. When you get older, you do get more conservative and cautious.

Litost, I'll agree with you in that it was a leap to compare Cali, with Iraq. There is no comparison in terms of level of danger. However, my point was that Cali is far above average in terms of levels of danger. That being the case would be sufficient enough reason to tell a young female American girl, who has never been to Cali, who has no family in Cali, and whose degree of Spanish is questionable to the extent that would certainly be identified as non Colombian,to not go to Cali to study for her thesis.

When it comes to your life, there are no second chances. And, she does not belong there given the circumstances that she is describing.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 26, 2006, 17:08:

In response to your post GringoD I will have to reread the safety guides, as you suggested. It has definitely been a while since I've looked at them. And yes, I have a pretty decent level of Spanish. I pretty much understand everything that is being said to me, and although I may not speak it as fast as some might, I do not have too much trouble communicating in the language. So yes, that does take off the pressure of being able to get my points across, and I'm not concerned with that part at all. I just want to be safe wherever I go, so that is my main concern at this point.

The people were very friendly in Quito. In fact, that is the principal reason I'll be there again this summer for a month. When I went last summer, I had the chance to take classes, volunteer with the youth, and do a lot of traveling around the country. It was beautiful, but I spent most of my time in Quito, and in my opinion there wasn't much to do. Had it not been for the rest of the people in the group I went with, I would've lost my mind in boredom...LOL.

When I go to Colombia, it will definitely be by air. I don't think I could stand a ride that long...hehehehe. Thanks for your comments.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 26, 2006, 17:12:

Replying to GringoD's 2nd post If I go it will be for an extended period of time (a whole semester), so I wouldn't be able to stay at the hotel the entire time. And anything remotely relating to politics is off my list. If I even hear the word política, I'm going to respond: ¿Política? ¿Qué es esto? LOL.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 26, 2006, 17:24:

Well actually...(to G5) ...I have told my family about my decision, as I always consult them on something major like this. My grandmother hates my decision, but that's nothing new, because she was the same way when I went for a semester in Mexico and to Ecuador last summer. My mother, well, she is torn. She wants me to be happy and do what I think is best for my educational and long-term goals, but she wants to make sure everything is legit at the same time. The boyfriend situation...well, let's just say we decided to go our separate ways because we both have very different interests in life and do not see eye to eye.

Maybe you are right about Colombia's salsa contribution. I cannot give an opinion in this area because I can only base my opinion upon the various Colombian artists I have listened to (some of which I've named for you in a previous post). Yes, Puerto Rico may have more to contribute to salsa. But the content of the music to me is more important than the actual music itself. And from what I've seen, the lyrics that might be considered "more controversial" do not get as much play as other lyrics that talk about love, women, etc.

I will have a chance to see how I like PR. I'm going there for a week (spring break) to do a conference, so I plan to do a little research there if I have time. I have a friend who is studying in PR right now and she hates it. We are somewhat alike, and from the stuff she tells me, I don't think I would like it there. She has also been to DR and from her accounts I do not want to go there either.

I really do appreciate your concern, and I will take into account everything you've mentioned, as well as that of other PBH members and my Colombian friends.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 26, 2006, 17:26:

Mike... ...LOL!!! That's a thought, but I really want to go somewhere where there is 100% Spanish spoken, because I'd be too tempted to speak in English...LOL.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 26, 2006, 17:28:

About Cumbia (Monpirrir1) I still plan to look into cumba. I've typed in a search on google for popular cumbia songs and did not come up with anything, so when I have something more concrete I will consider that angle.

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Monpirri says on Jan 26, 2006, 18:06:

Southern_Dyme I am still working on it, in the meantime check this site:
http://www.tropimusic.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=5678&Category_Code=CMBA

Monpirri AKA "Yo me llamo Cumbia"

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Monpirri says on Jan 26, 2006, 18:45:

"Cumbia owes all to that explorer" Southern_Dyme,
I do not want sound like I am trying to discourage you from writing the salsa thesis.
I'm just not a promoter of salsa music, for obvious reasons. But the fact is that I also like salsa, and as you well know, salsa has become very popular music in Cali. I believe you have several valid reasons to write a great piece about this genre and perhaps it is the very same reason why many famous salsa musicians love to visit Cali during the Salsa festival or Feria de Cali. There must be a reason why so many renowned salsa musicians/composers have relocated to Cali.
And it is evident that Cali has become the most prominent paradise for Salsa music and dancers, and in retrospect I want to say that Colombia has produced several outstanding salsa musicians, and you do have plenty of material to write about this Cali’s phenomenal.

But I still believe veteran Cumbia is superb and you can find out more about cumbia or listen to several artists by going this website. http://www.tropimusic.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=D10327&Category_Code=CMBA.
I enjoy listening to Ivan su Bam Bam’s cumbias, I also like Pastor Lopez’s cumbias and Joe Arroyo is also considered a cumbia singer. Here is more related info.

Joe Arroyo
biography
Joe Arroyo is Colombia's most famous Salsa singer. Throughout his career as a singer with Fruko y Sus Tesos and another Fruko project, the Latin Brothers, his powerful, high-ranging tenor voice has sang of his African heritage, the hopes of his people, and the joy that music brings; he also plays the claves (wooden sticks that keep time) with an intense vigor that best characterizes his live performances. His Salsa includes a mixture of other Caribbean elements -- most notably Soca and Merengue (a pair of styles popular in his coastal hometown of Barranquila), as well as the ever-popular Cumbia. With his band La Verdad (The Truth), his popularity spread throughout Latin America and Europe in the 1980s. The infectious mixture of his dance music invigorated a Salsa scene that many felt had grown weak at its New York City vortex.
http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/joearroyo/biography

Track List - Vol. 1-Greatest Cumbia Classic, Arroyo CD
1. La Colegiala - Rodolfo Y Su Tipica Ra7
2. Mi Cucu - La Sonora Dinamita
3. A Mi Dios Todo Le Debo - Joe Arroyo Y La Verdad
4. Las Tapas - Lisandro Meza Y Los Hijos De La Nina Luz
5. El Pescador De Baru - Los Warahuaco
6. Amor De Mis Amores - La Sonora Dinamita
7. La Burrita De Eliseo - Los Corraleros De Majagual
8. La Pollera Colora - Pedro Salcedo Y Su Orquesta
9. La Piragua - Gabriel Romero Y Su Orquesta
10. El Gavilan Pollero - Joe Arroyo Con Los Bestiales
11. Solo Un Cigarro - Pastor Lopez Y Su Combo
12. La Mucura - La Integracion
13. Cachucha Bacana - Tulio
14. El Viejo Del Sombreron - La Sonora Dinamita
15. La Subienda - Gabriel Romero Y Su Orquesta
16. Golpe Con Golpe - Pastor Lopez Y Su Combo
http://www.findusedcds.com/696211101423/Vol_1Greatest_Cumbia_Classic_Arroyo_Lopez_Tulio_Romero/default.aspx

The Sun Of Latin Music (1974)
There's a lot of good stuff on this record ("Mi Cumbia," "Nunca Contigo") although almost every idea was done better later on (and maybe earlier too): the extended jam with improvised intro ("Un Dia Bonito"), the straight dance tunes ("Nada De Tí"). But the band sounds great, the arrangements are sharp and Eddie's sense of theater is excellent as usual. Plus, he amusingly rips off the Beatles' "You Never Give Me Your Money" on "Una Rosa Española." Eddie's first Grammy. (DBW)
Mi Cumbia by "Eddie Palmieri"

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2006, 19:25:

So Southern Dyme..... I understand that that your focus is on the content more than the music itself. Still, if you have a country with many more groups, than it follows that you will have more content. I think that you exposure to Colombian salsa has jaded your ability to be objective. Look, I have said it once and I'll say it again, Colombia from any perspective has contributed little to the the salsa scene. If you really want to talk about content of songs, and the powerfull messages that are contained within, artists such as Hector Lavoe (a PR) go to the top of the list. His song El Cantante probably typifies such music.The same goes for Willie Colon. Hector Lavoe had a very short life in that he died from a combination drugs/suicide, but his music is far more powerfull than any Colombian artist. Oscar Deleon, a venezolano, has an incredible amount of music with subtle and not so subtle messages. And nobody, and I mean nobody, has written more salsa with messages from within (both political and a commentary on life) thna the Panamanian, Ruben Blades...Here clearly goes to the top of the list And no Colombian or Puerto Rican comes even close. So if the message and words are of your primary concern, than you need to go far beyond the borders of Colombia to cover that aspect of salsa. With your focus limited to Colombia, I am sorry to say, you have not even scratched the surface

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Monpirri says on Jan 26, 2006, 22:25:

CUMBIA

Here is the site again, I believe the link above did not work.

CUMBIAS, CUMBIAS, CUMBIAS - VARIOS

Let's not forget about Vallenato and "Musica Llanera" For your next trip!

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Monpirri says on Jan 27, 2006, 20:59:

Southern_Dyme This website tells you about many of the popular festivals in Colombia, the site is about the different dances and music genres. www.fundacionbat.com.co/festivales.php
If you decide to write also about Cumbia, here is some pertaining information, you may find it interesting:

THE NATIONAL MUSIC OF COLOMBIA IS CUMBIA
LA CUMBIA ES LA MUSICA NACIONAL DE COLOMBIA
http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/13206#new

http://www.muevamueva.com/grupo/cumbiaya/ Argentina
http://www.worldmusiccentral.org/staticpages/index.php/europeanradio.htm
http://www.accordionusa.com/ar_10_03.htm “Festival in San Antonio”
http://www.conk.com/search/encyclopedia.cgi?q=Rock_and_roll “Cumbia rock” Fusion genres
http://www.free-definition.com/Gueiro.html Japanese güiro
http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Ediver/musica.html/ Chile
http://www.mipueblito.com/Foro/viewtopic.php?t=2163 Uruguay and Argentina
http://artemis.austincollege.edu/acad/cml/cmanley/Classes/CostaRicaflyer2004.htm
http://www.contactomagazine.com/yamila0430.htm Cubana
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seasap/vpost?id=340758 Peruana en el Mundo
http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/naci/cari/2005-07-19/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-2151410.html Francia, El Tiempo
http://www.smithsonianjazz.org/latinjazz/latinjazz_education_tl.asp Cumbia & Jazz fusion
http://www.dangeruss-industries.com/results/Timeline_of_trends_in_music_(1980-1989).html Mexico’s popular music scene
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/fitzgerald/163/styles/styles1.html Colombian cumbia midi format
http://www.cumbiaspirit.com/ pictures
World Music Colombia - Colombian Music

“Cumbia's form was solidified in the 1940s when it spread from the rural countryside to urban and middle-class audiences. Mambo, big band and porro brass band influences were combined by artists like Lucho Bermúdez to form a refined form of cumbia that soon entered the Golden Age of Cumbia during the 1950s.”

Here’s my only contribution to your Salsa thesis:
"Colombian salsa
Salsa music was born among Puerto Ricans and Cubans in New York City, and soon spread to Colombia, popularized by Fruko and Discos Fuentes. Artists like Joe Arroyo followed, inventing a distinctively Colombian form of salsa called música tropical. Though it is salsa all the same one can hear the difference between Cuban salsa and Colombian salsa. Other influential Colombian salsa musicians include Grupo Niche, Alquimia, La Misma Gente, Los Titanes, Los Nemus del Pacífico, Orquesta Guayacán and Grupo Galeé."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Colombia

Good luck and keep in touch!

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 27, 2006, 21:53:

Monpiri RE: Colombian Salsa you mentioned above I have a few comments. Fruko y Sus Tesos was never really classified as Salsa, it was considered musical tropical although much of his music is in fact Salsa. On the world wide salsa scale, Fruko only had one song of note...."El Preso" Joe Arroyo who used to sing with Fruko, like Fruko, only really was famous in Colombia. He did write some more modern style salsa however. In fact, Joe Arroyo came to Chicago one time, and his concert was a bust. The place was three quarters empty and the promoters, Cardenas/Jam productions, lost their ass. The only other times Joe Arroyo came was when he came with Niche as Niche's warm up group.

In other words, on the world wide salsa stage, Colombia has Grupo Niche even there, once they lost the lead singer that made them famous, Tito Gomez, despite Jairo Varella's creativity, Niche never quite bounced back to its days of greatness. Tito Gomez, by the way is Puerto Rican. Primi Cruz, a chorus member was also Puerto Rican.

Alquimia, the modern day version of Sonora Matacera, is/was another group that went nowhere. They performed here, and the concert was poorly attended. Puerto Ricans and other Salsa enthusiasts don't know who they are. Their CD's went virtually unsold, and the stores that sell a lot of Salsa CD's, ended up taking a loss by putting them on clearance for .99 cents a CD.

Los Nemus del pacific is terrific. He has a tremendous variety of music. Not just Salsa. He plays a lot of Son, and Son Montuno. In fact, his music is more of that genre than it is Salsa. He is from Buenaaventura, and he has some interesting themes and some comical ones..like "A la luna" (or something like that). But, he too, is virtually unknown outside of Colombia. There is not a Puerto Rican in Chicago that knows Alex Marillo and Los Nemus. Guayacan,,,,had one great song. Oiga Mira, Vea...(Ok maybe one and a half "Torrero" after that.....they are mediocre, at best, and they too are not known
outside of Colombia.

Grupo Galee' is a group that plays a lot of songs, and most of them sound alike. Not a very creative group in its lyrics or in its use of instrumentals. Very ordinary,and once again, has virtually no following outside of Colombia

La Misma, Los Titanes ???? Who??? Give me a break

In other words, Colombia's major contribution to salsa was limited to the incredible creativity, and brilliance of Jairo Varela and Grupo Niche

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Monpirri says on Jan 27, 2006, 23:31:

Gomezman5, I am not a salsa advocate but you need to get more in touch with Colombia. Subscribe to Satellite TV and learn from Colombian TV about Colombian culture, if you cannot or do not want to travel to Colombia. I am not just talking about the music in question here, I mean get to know their current events and without regard to the routine rhetoric about how dangerous it is.
If his concert in Chicago was not successful maybe it had to do with the demographics, the advertising, the timing, the place, etc. etc.
I just found out two days ago about Joe Arroyo's numerous music/song productions, and now you as a Colombian music critic want to tell me that his concert did not go well in your city.
By the way, there are much more Colombian musicians or groups than the ones listed here on this topic, and both cultures know each other in the music industry because they travel back and forth to NY and Cali. In fact, I know some musicians who have moved to live in Cali because the share the same interest. Also, there are several songs in the music market today where positive credit is given to Colombia in this genre.

Take care and I do not want to deviate from my goal or musical interest!!

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 28, 2006, 02:11:

It's 2-0 now, I'm for it. Nevertheless.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 28, 2006, 06:42:

By all means, go.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 28, 2006, 06:57:

Monpiri....A few points Chicago is the 3d largest market for Salsa in the US. It is behind only Miami and New York. Orlando has also climbed way up there. Hence, when a group comes to the US to go "On tour" Chicago is "a must". Our Puerto Rican community is the second largest in the country. We also have a very large community of other South and central American markets that enjoy salsa. We are also only one of three cities that has a full time Salsa radio station. Miami and New York have a couple each. So you cannot discount Chicago in any way in terms of measuring a salsa groups popularity.

Also, when the promoter is JAM productions, you are talking about the most influential promoter in the US. If they promote you and you still can't do well, then.......needless to say you are not very popular. In other words, if you can't make it with JAM behind you, you are not very popular. Period. As to the amount of discs Joe Arroyo has, that is totaly irrelevant. I know a local Jazz singer who was well known on National Public Radio, and whose gigs were well attended locally in the various clubs and bars, but she made 6 CDs, and all of them bombed. To make music,and CS's all you need is money to pay a production studio to record them for you. In other words, she was known on the local club circuit, but never could make it nationally. Look, I have almost all of Joe Arroyo's music. He is great. He was singing long before Grupo Nich lit the world on fire. In fact, Niche is what really put Salsa on the map in Cali. Salsa was much more popular in places like Barranquilla for many years, before it was popular in Cali. That fact is indiputable. I will also tell you that the average Barranquillero, knows more about Folkloric salsa, like Fania, than the people from Cali do.

All I am saying is that Joe Arroyo, along with every single other salsa group from Colombia with the exception of Niche, never recieved any real noteriety OUTSIDE of Colombia. Not one group. Sorry, that is just a fact. Sure you can buy their music in the Colombian section of a store that sells salsa and related, but it just is not all that popular among salsa enthusiasts.

As to why a group would move to Cali, I cannot answer that. I will say this, (and for your information) ALL the Colombian artists that that I know, that happened to make it famous left Colombia pretty fast. Example: SHAKIRA (Miami -and she is selling her 8 million dollar home on Star Island for a bigger one) CARLOS VIVES (Miami and Puerto Rico) and JUANES (Los Angeles) And please don't write back and tell me they call Colombia "Their home". I can call Moscow my home, but I live in Chicago Your home is where you live.

And as to my vote....don't go. Life is short,and precious. You as a young American woman should not go to cities where there is an unreasonable risk of being harmed. There are may other places that are far safer and at the same time, will provide you more info about salsa for your thesis. Puerto Rico is the best example. Like I said earlier though, this is the LAST web site you should come to for an objective opinion. Coming here and asking about Colombia is like going to a web site about operas and asking people those people if opera music is better than Jazz. That should have been obvious to you before you even started your thread.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 28, 2006, 10:58:

Monpirri Wow....thanks! That list you provided should definitely provide a lot of information. You know what the funny thing is? At this point you've been doing more research for my thesis than I have...LOL!!! I've been so busy with teaching and preparing for two conferences I have to present at very soon that I've neglected my research (except going salsa dancing....that's research that will ALWAYS be in progress....hehehehe). I will have to give you a shoutout on my works cited page...LOL.

I really appreciate your help.

CeCe

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 28, 2006, 11:02:

adela I didn't want you to think I didn't read your post. I did read it and just realized that I forgot to respond to you too. Sometimes when there are so many posts (being that I can't respond everyday) I might overlook one or two by accident. I have looked at the caliescali site (thanks for the link) and I like what I saw. I appreciate your input on this thread!

SD

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mzzmerized says on Jan 28, 2006, 14:52:

You'll be fine... 4 - 0 Go!

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Cerealkiller says on Jan 28, 2006, 15:22:

Which uni are you going to? I just got back from cali and to be honest i feel it isnt the best place to be. Its great to visit mind you, and i dont think you'd be attacked by any means. The truth is Cali is a fairly big city, but it is still extremely provincial. I am a girl and a university student too, so i am guessing you're into partying, clubbing, going out for drinks and all that. I think Cali could be a little limiting, of course the salsa scene is grand but the crowd that hangs out at clubs (all sorts of clubs strata 1 to 6) is rather undesirable, plenty of big guys in huge SUV's, locally known as "traquetos", which means theyre mafia related but not big shots, who can afford clubbing with the chicas and all that. Personally, i found it very uncomfortable as I was with local friends and they commented on how shootings and street vendettas are very common at clubs when people get a bit drunk...thats the only real danger i see, but people in cali are often very friendly, the city is alright and its sunny pretty much all year round.
Good luck.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Monpirri says on Jan 28, 2006, 15:35:

Gomezman5, "Viva la Cumbia" and all the renowned Colombian musicians and composers in all the music genres!

“All I am saying is that Joe Arroyo, along with every single other salsa group from Colombia with the exception of Niche, never received any real noteriety OUTSIDE of Colombia.”
This is the same problem Cumbia had many years ago and it appears to have now here and everywhere, “Notoriety”. On the other hand, Carlos Vives, Shakira and Juanes were able to make at large because they chose a different road, a complete different ad strategy.
Just because Joe Arroyo and some music groups from Colombia were not well know by the established or “elite” tropical music companies in Chicago or in the states, it does not mean they were not great music singers or composers!
Chicago is not the place for Colombian music to excel because as you pointed out at one time via PM, the city has a great number of citizens who are not necessary aficionados of a foreign culture. I believe Colombians are a minority voice there, that’s what you basically tried to convoke to me at that time.
Bottom line, notoriety it is all about advertising, demographics, Colombians or communities who want to change the spell or negative information into positive events, great business contacts in the industry and some cash at hand would help.

My sources of information posted above concerning Colombian music and Joe Arroyo:

http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/joearroyo/biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Colombia
http://www.warr.org/palmieri.html

Caracol Television

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 28, 2006, 17:27:

Monpirri What are you talking about????

It has nothing to do with Chicago. Nothing at all. My knowledge of Salsa is extensive. Over 900 CDs, gives me a little more than cassual knowledge don't ya think? I have been listening to salsa since I knew how to turn on a radio. And I stand on what I say. Colombias salsa, on a world wide (not Chicago) but world wide, doesn't make the mark. Grupo Niche is the ONLY group that goes down as one of the all time top artists. Sorry, but that's about it. It has nothing to do with Cumbia or the success of Juanes, Shakira, and Carlos Vives. Those three individuals are phenomenal artists that are so famous no matter where they go. And with the exception of Grupo Niche, there has NEVER been a a Colombian musical artists that have even close to approaching the plateau of any of those artists. NOT one!!

This is not even an issue for debate...it's just a fact. If you go to Mexico City, there is hardly a person between the age of 16 and 30 that would not know who Shakira or Jaunes is. On the other hardly anyone at any age would know who the hell Jow Arroyo is. Count on it

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 28, 2006, 17:28:

Monpirri What are you talking about????

It has nothing to do with Chicago. Nothing at all. My knowledge of Salsa is extensive. Over 900 CDs, gives me a little more than cassual knowledge don't ya think? I have been listening to salsa since I knew how to turn on a radio. And I stand on what I say. Colombias salsa, on a world wide (not Chicago) but world wide, doesn't make the mark. Grupo Niche is the ONLY group that goes down as one of the all time top artists. Sorry, but that's about it. It has nothing to do with Cumbia or the success of Juanes, Shakira, and Carlos Vives. Those three individuals are phenomenal artists that are so famous no matter where they go. And with the exception of Grupo Niche, there has NEVER been a a Colombian musical artists that have even close to approaching the plateau of any of those artists. NOT one!!

This is not even an issue for debate...it's just a fact. If you go to Mexico City, there is hardly a person between the age of 16 and 30 that would not know who Shakira or Jaunes is. On the other hardly anyone at any age would know who the hell Joe Arroyo is. Count on it

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 28, 2006, 17:28:

Monpirri What are you talking about????

It has nothing to do with Chicago. Nothing at all. My knowledge of Salsa is extensive. Over 900 CDs, gives me a little more than cassual knowledge don't ya think? I have been listening to salsa since I knew how to turn on a radio. And I stand on what I say. Colombias salsa, on a world wide (not Chicago) but world wide, doesn't make the mark. Grupo Niche is the ONLY group that goes down as one of the all time top artists. Sorry, but that's about it. It has nothing to do with Cumbia or the success of Juanes, Shakira, and Carlos Vives. Those three individuals are phenomenal artists that are so famous no matter where they go. And with the exception of Grupo Niche, there has NEVER been a a Colombian musical artists that have even close to approaching the plateau of any of those artists. NOT one!!

This is not even an issue for debate...it's just a fact. If you go to Mexico City, there is hardly a person between the age of 16 and 30 that would not know who Shakira or Juanes is. On the other hardly anyone at any age would know who the hell Joe Arroyo is. Count on it

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 28, 2006, 19:59:

Why is my post appearing three times??? Can some one tell me how or who made my post three times......I certainly did not type it three times. The last two or posted at exactly the same time. I can't even type that fast so that it would post that quickly....

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Monpirri says on Jan 29, 2006, 13:41:

GringoD My favorite Joe Arroyo song is Rebelión, this song rocks!!
I knew a few songs of this "unknown" Colombian music artist but I did know he have produced quite a bit of music until couple days ago when Southern_Dyme asked me about Cumbia and when she asked, "Can you suggest any songs/artists so that I can look them up and hear what it sounds like?

Who is Joe Arroyo?

http://www.angelfire.com/band2/salsa/joe_arroyo.html
"Here´s a list of most of the songs Joe has recorded, as you can see he´s super productive!"

-Abandonaron El Campo
-Adios Fulana
-A Mi Dios Todo Le Debo
-Aprieta Que Llegue
-Ban Ban
-Barranquillera
-Barranquilla Me Voy
-Bella Sin Alma
-Blanco Y Negro
-Cantinero
-Chuvidu
-Confundido
-Corázon Rumbero
-De Clavel
-Deja Que Te Cante
-Deja Que Te Agarre
-Droga
-Echao Pa'lante
-El Arbol
-El Barbero
-El Caminante
-El Concinero Mayor
-El Coquero
-El Centurion De La Noche
-El Palo
-El Mana
-El Maletero
-El Monstruo
-El Nino Dios
-El Sapo
-El Son Del Caballo
-El Trato
-El Verano
-Ella Y Tu
-En Barranquilla me quedo
-Enhorabuena
-Falta la plata
-Feliz Contigo
-Fuego
-Fuego En Mi Mente
-Fundillo Loco
-Fusion
-Homenaje a Estafania
-Homenaje A Irene Martinez
-Inocente
-Juguete de amor
-La Amare
-Las Cajas
-La Cocha
-La India Catalina
-La Madera
-La Mini Mini
-La Guerra De Los Callados
-La Ponzona
-La Vuelta
-Los Barcos En La Bahia
-La Noche
-La Tortuga
-Las Cabanuelas
-La Vi Partir
-Lina Balina
-Los Patulekos
-Llanto Ven Llanto Va
-Lloviendo
-Maná
-Mama
-Mara Paola
-Mary
-Mi Libertad
-Mis Zapatos Blancos
-Mosaico Folclorico
-Musa Original
-Muevelo
-Mueve Un Pie
-Matiagua
-Me Le Fugue A La Candela
-Mostaza Al Cafe
-Nadando
-Noche De Arreboles
-No Se Vivir Sin Ti
-No Tanto
-Omnipotente
-Panama me tombe
-Pañuelo Y Guayuco
-Patrona De Los Reclusos
-Palenque
-Panama Me Tombe
-Pan De Arroz
-Planazos
-Por Ti No Morir
-Por El Suelo
-Quiero De Nuevo Empezar
-Ratón
-Rosa
-Revelacion 16-14
-Rosa Angelina
-Rebelion
-Sabre Olvidar
-Se Rompio El Paraguas
-Simula Timula
-Son Apretao
-Somos Seres
-Son Sin Papelon
-Soy El Folclor
-Suave Bruta
-Sus Razones Tendra
-Tal para cual
-Tania II
-Tato
-Teresa Vuelve
-Te Quiero Mas
-Torito
-Tu Volveras
-Tumbatecho
-Tumanye
-Ulala Cartagena
-Viajero
-Vuelve
-Yamulemau
-Y Que Mi Socio

Discography:
here are some of the records Joe Arroyo has made
-Arroyo Peligroso -2004
-Los Magnificos de la Salsa -2002
-A Duo: Los Reyes del Tropico -2001
-Los Gigantes de la Salsa -2001
-En Sol Mayor -2000
-Cruzando el Milenio -1999
-Rey del Carnaval -1998
-Deja Que Te Cante -1998
-Reinando en Vida -1997
-Mi Libertad -1996
-Sus Razones Tendra -1995
-Fuego -1993
-Toque de Clase -1991
-Echao Pa'lante -1990
-Y La Verdad
http://www.musicasalsa.de/colombia.htm

Monpirri AKA "Yo me llamo Cumbia"

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 29, 2006, 20:01:

Cerealkiller Finalmente! Another college student who happens to be female and has studied in Cali. I plan to attend USC. Which school did you go to? I tried looking at a list I found online with various school websites that are in Cali, but I didn't see an exchange program being offered on the majority of those sites. I saw a few that offered language programs, but I plan to take regular classes because I am proficient enough in Spanish to handle it. Are there any other schools that you can recommend? Have you heard anything about USC? All I have to go on is their website (which of course will praise their program so that they can encourage more students to attend) and what a friend of mine told me about it. I would love to hear about it from an exchange-student's perspective.

Well, being that bullet holes is not my favorite look, I guess I will have to limit my partying. Although I am accustomed to going out quite often here, I probably will not do it as often in Colombia because I'll have to focus harder in school, and still find time to do my separate research. As long as the people are friendly (which I do believe is true) then it will help a lot. Did you take a lot of pictures while you were down there? If you have any online please let me know because I would love to see what Cali looks like. I've found a few pics here and there but nothing extensive.

Thanks for your comment!

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Monpirri says on Jan 29, 2006, 20:31:

Southern_Dyme When ever you are ready to make your decision as to going to Colombia or not, please let us know.

Hasta luego!

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 29, 2006, 20:36:

My decision....to go or not to go? That is the Question! Well GringoD you asked me what my vote was, and in fact when I read that post a few days ago I wanted to give myself time to really think about it (plus I've been busy trying to throw together a preliminary synopsis of my thesis for a conference next week). I have come up with a decision (and I'm about 90% sure of this decision). First let me explain what I used to come up with my decision before I say what it is.

Of course, since the short while I have been a member here on PBH I have had the pleasure of receiving tips and advice from all of you in regards with what to expect should I decide to go to Colombia, and Cali in particular. Some people have made it sound like the most dangerous place on Earth, while others make it sound like a paradise. Some people say there is lots to do, while others say that they were extremely bored. Some people have said make the trip to Colombia, while others tell me to steer clear of it. Taking all of this into account, I have asked myself time and time again, "Is it worth it?" And when I think about all of the challenges I have overcome in my life, and the things I want to accomplish, I tell myself that yes, it is worth it.

I know some people are going to flip their wig when they read this (LOL), but I think I'll be ok over there. There are some people who have agreed to help me out, and I think that was one of the major concerns for me, not knowing anyone. As far as the danger and the "possibility of something very unfortunate happening to me", the same could happen anywhere. I could be crossing the street and out of nowhere a car slams into me and kills me. I could be home watching TV here at my house and a stray bullet flies through the window and wounds me (I read about it all the time in the paper). I just have to have faith that everything will be ok, and that I will return home safely. I do believe things happen for a reason, and for some reason I was put in contact with the Colombians that I now know, that my life changed last summer while in Ecuador and now my vision is more clear as to what I feel my purpose is, and that I have a wonderful university that is willing to help me with the funds for my trip. Of course, I will try to use my good old common sense and avoid trouble. I don't plan to do anything that will put myself at risk intentionally. I am a homebody somewhat, so if I have to stay in the house a lot, it won't be the end of the world. I can deal with that.

Will Cali be a good choice? I guess I'll never really know until it's all said and done. I think that even if I'm bored out of my mind (as some of you mentioned happened to you) I will find some good in the trip. I could share some of my experiences with you during my semester abroad in Mexico that would make your stomach turn, but even despite all of those negativities I found some good in that trip, and I think it helped me to grow as a person.

I thank all of you for your advice, and I still look forward to communicating with you all. So, again, unless there is some unfortunate twist (i.e. the Cali situation becomes much much worse dangerwise, or if my school decides not to help me fund my trip for some reason) I plan to be in Cali in the Fall!

SD

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Monpirri says on Jan 29, 2006, 20:51:

Southern_Dyme I wish I could give you a high five for your decision!
During your breaks from work, don't forget to try el sancocho valluno y las empanadas con aji picante.
Please remember to use the "buddy system' when going out to explore Cali or anywhere else.

"Oiga, mire y vea", asi dice el son.

Monpirri AKA "Yo me llamo Cumbia"

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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juanalejo says on Jan 30, 2006, 05:43:

Southern Dyme Once in Cali try to plan to come to Bogotá to Salsa al parque, it is an open air salsa festival usually around June sponsored by the city´s government. www.culturayturismo.gov.co

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 30, 2006, 07:52:

Southern Dyme.....same story Just a few comments. Perhaps I should blame myself from putting my thoughts into words because in this case, as in almost all others, people come to this board looking for info on Colombia, and while the safety issue invariably is discussed, it is never given any serious thought by people like yourselves.

The above said, you are not going to make me, or anyone else on this board believe that your decision to travel there was not made up BEFORE you came to this board for info on Colombia in general. Because if your safety was truly your concern, you would 1.not be coming to a board where everyone acts like this is an extension of the Colombia's Tourist Bureau, and 2. you would have gone to a reputable site that gives unbiased information about world wide travel and the relevant safety concerns that attach to traveling to those countries.

I suggested in my earlier posts, that you clearly had made up your mind from the moment you came here. Safety was never an issue, so why do you engage people so as to lead them into it ever was? My point is proved with some of the lines in your post above. Your writing style clearly indicates that you are intelligent. But your logic is defective. Your comparing the possibility that something can happen to you anywhere makes my point. Do you really believe that. Isn't walking down a dark side street at night posing a greater danger to a young lady than walking on a main street in the day light? Isn't living in a crime ridden neighborhood make it more likely than not that your home will be burglarized than if you lived in an area with low crime and security is present? Your comparing living in Cali Colombia as opposed to some other locale that is much more secure, is analogous to saying the following:

" I can cross the street with my eyes closed, and I don't have to worry about getting hit by a car, because if I cross the street with my eyes open, I can also get hit by a car. So why do I have to walk across the street with my eyes open?"

What I am saying is that there are relative levels of danger in any activity that you engage in. But to say that the level of danger is the same, is just plain silly.

I will say this, I just wish one of these days, someone like yourself would come onto this site and say, I know it's a dangerous city to live in (IT IS) and that I want to go there in spite of the danger, instead of people coming here acting like they are really concerned, listen to a bunch of cheerleaders from Colombia's unofficial tourist bureau, and then say to themselves, "OK I think I'll be fine". (when in reality that's wish, based on nothing)

I guess when someone want to do something, they will go to any length to talk themselves into anything, even if it involves stretching their imagination....Go, SouthernDyme, but "me thinks" you are making a serious mistake, and not for a very good reason. Good Luck...and of course, Be safe.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 30, 2006, 09:39:

"Tourism Bureau" comment comes from..... My Tourism Bureau comment comes from the fact that most of the participants in the acutual threads, through their posts, clearly take a rather biased view, wherein they try to assert the view of how safe Colombia is. The fact that there is a guide on the left, or they can Google the issue throughout the web at large, does not alter my view that the actual posters, are heavily weighted toward downplaying the violence and security situation.

Tinto, you cannot possibly believe that the threads asking about security, will give you balanced view of Colombia. This thread alone makes my point exactly. Here you have a young single gringa, that want to study in Cali. She has never been there. She has no family there. And for the most part, she is going to rely on her own instincts with the possibility that a friend of a friend is going to assist her to some unknown degree during her stay. And look how many posters are telling her to go, have a good time, and "just be carefull". Come one Tinto, the truth about the danger of her going there couldn't be more evident. It is a dangerous city for those that live there. But to tell a gringa to go there under those circumstances is just foolishness, and you know it!!!

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caslug says on Jan 30, 2006, 13:25:

GMAN dyme seem to have a postive personality.. so EVEN if she has a bad experience, she'll learn from it and come out with a positive spin. Good for her. She doesnt live her life in fear. I met several tourist in COL that witness or were victims of crime, but they still come back to COL and the city(cali included) that the crime happened.

When we say cali is a high crime city, it DOESNT mean that you'll be a victim of crime every moment of your time there. Just that you'll have a GREATER chance of being a victim in Cali versus another city in the same type of area. the whole decision making is always a risk reward ratio, is having a good exp in cali worth the slight increase in risk? that's a question only individuals can answer for themselves. What is OK for me maybe is not OK for you.

I recomend to dyme to go to BOG instead of Cali, the big reason is more things to do in BOG. And since she doesnt have a solid personal connection to cali, why go to cali? It's like an american deciding to goto bakersfield, CA for vacation or study. It's a small city, kinda boring, so why go?

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 30, 2006, 15:36:

Caslug....you have been hanging with the cheerleaders too long. Cali, by international standards is a very dangerous place to live. There is no question regarding this assertion. I am not saying she is destined to be a victim of a serious crime, or any crime at all for that matter.

Using your own standards that you set forth above, if the probability of being a victim is that much greater, than why even go there in the first place? To study? That's absurd. I will even go so far as to say that the many men who go there to be with a young Calena, are going there for the purpose of having the time of their life with someone that they could not otherwise be with in other places. They are also men and that factor in and of itself gives them somewhat of an advantage over a woman in terms of security. Also, when my friends go there to visit their families, they have no choice in the matter because that is where their families live. But to study? Knowing that the risk is that high you would recommend a young lady go to a very dangerous city? A city where government law enforcement mechanisms are at a minimum ineffective, and bordering on nonexistent? No, I cannot accept your argument that she should go there under those circumstances. There are other alternatives that can provide her the information she needs (even more so) and still be in a safer environment.

And to those people who go to Cali knowing that the level of danger is quite high, and then return after they have had a brush with danger, I say there are fools and there are greater fools...But fools they still are.

I remain unconvinced and frankly, I think people here are doing a disservice to a young, naive, and unsuspecting lady when they tell her to go there, when the risk(s) clearly outweigh the benefits to be derived in being there.

Lastly, you claim that the benefits of her being there outweigh the
"slight increase in risk." Really? Only a slight increase in Risk? Come on Caslug, I expected better from you. You cannot honestly believe that the risk is only a "slight" one. Please......

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caslug says on Jan 30, 2006, 15:49:

GMAN..i'm certainly not discounting the risk.. in cali, it IS MORE DANGEROUS(IMO) than MED or BOG, i say that AFTER having spend almost a mo in BOG, 2 mos in MED & 3 mos in Cali. You warned her, let her live her life. You tend to get passionate about safety in COL in post, and while it's well intention, it brings out the "cheerleader" in the forum. Many go to Cali and NEVER exp problems, probably because they have friends/family that hand hold them and keep them out of trouble.

BUT i've NEVER met a gringo that been to cali(and COL) for a long period of time that NEVER witness crime. All the ones i've met became victims or witness crime at least once. So of course i'm not saying it's NOT dangerous. when you starting telling tales of "woes & doom about COL ALL the time", you lose crediblity with the very audience you want to warn.

For me if i had to choose a city to visit in COL, cali would NOT be my first choice(or 2nd or 3rd) UNLESS I had friends, family, or job. But for whatever reason Dyme wants to go to cali, she made up her mind, heck maybe she's an adventure junkie, goes where people tell her NOT to go! ja, ja.. I admit, i'm a little like that...

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slehmann says on Jan 30, 2006, 17:21:

Cali Airport Thinking of flying into Cali this Spring on a flight that arrives at 9:00p.m. Does anyone know of any hotels within walking distance of the airport and is that area safe to walk at night? Most importantly, are there any car rental counters IN the Cali airport?

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 30, 2006, 17:26:

Losing credibility??? It's hard to believe that I am losing creditbility because I am passionate about warning people that their life is in danger when they go to a particular locale.

Many people here agree with me. They have decided not to comment because of all the vultures, of Colombians living here, that come out of nowhere, and get very personal and insulting because someone dare speak the truth about country that riddled with security problems. Look, it's easy to join the chorus and sing a long with the cheerleaders. It's quite another thing to expose a situation for what it is, as opposed to what others wish, or percieve the situation to be.

Someone once told me that the power of perception is greater than the power of reality. I disagreed. I said that Perception, for all intents and purposes IS REALITY. No better is this point illustrated than here on PBH, where perception and reality are one and the same

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 30, 2006, 19:29:

GringoD Hell no. My salsa is my love. Although I admit, I don't listen to them nearly as much as I used to. Now I can go a few weeks without listening to one CD. But hell if I am going to sell CD's for 6 to 8 dollars for that I paid 15 dollars for new.

As to So Dyme, if she wanted an escort like me to show her around, I would give it some serious thought if she wanted to go to BOG. I am not that familiar with Cali.

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Southern_Dyme says on Jan 30, 2006, 21:11:

Oh brother....here we go (to G5) First of all, I am going to make this very short, because I have 100 or so pages to finish reading for my class tomorrow, but I couldn't not respond.

1. I did not have my mind totally made up before I found out about this website. I was still in the research phase, and had only said to myself, "Hmm...sounds like an interesting place to go, but let me see what else I can find out." So yes, my sources that I used to make my decision were, on part, PBH, but also the fact that I have been in contact with more people who live in Cali who are willing to help me when I get there. I did also read what was listed on the CIA website and considered all of the warnings they gave. Trust me, this was not just some "overnight decision" and I have been looking into this trip since last September.

2. As far as the comment you made about the crime and walking down a street during the daytime vs. walking down that same street at night...I don't even do that here! I think I'm one of the most cautious people that I know (my friends say I'm loca all the time because I will not walk anywhere at night alone) because I do not want to take the chance of anything happening to me. There are a lot of sinister things that occur here where I currently live. In fact, I was watching the news tonight and last night just in one sector alone 5 people were murdered. That does not include all of the other stabbing/shooting injuries, that is only the number of actual murders in one sector. Does that mean I'm going to pack my bags and leave the city tonight? Not at all! I just try to mind my business and stay away from areas notorious of crime. I plan to do just that in Cali as well when I arrive.

If I feel that threatened when I get there, worst case scenario is that I'll come back home before my time is up and have to pay back the thousands upon thousands of dollars I will be receiving in funding for terminating the trip early. But of course if my safety is of concerned I would do it. For me to feel as draw as I now do to going, I think there is some reason behind it. Perhaps you don't see it (because even at this point I do not see it), but there is something that is pulling me in that direction. Perhaps a blessing is waiting for me over there. I'll never know until I go.

Thanks for wishing me luck, and a safe trip.

SD

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 30, 2006, 21:21:

That's chilling: SD: "Perhaps you don't see it (because even at this point I do not see it), but there is something that is pulling me in that direction. Perhaps a blessing is waiting for me over there. I'll never know until I go."

I'll be lighting a candle for ya!

I'm just curious - why Cali, over Bogota? You know the best universities Colombia has to offer are in Bogota, right?

If G5 has accomplished nothing more than to put you on your guard, then it will have been worth his time. Remember D - it's an odds game. You'll come off your plane wary, and after some weeks of having a great time, you'll start to think that guys like G5 are just paranoid. "It's not so bad here."

That's when you get complacent, and something bad happens.

Stay sharp. Good luck.

Wasteland

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caslug says on Jan 31, 2006, 00:01:

Wasteland gave excellent advice.. regarding safety. It's better to ALWAYS be on guard, it's not like back in your hometown. And as a women, you need to be even MORE cautious.

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Cerealkiller says on Jan 31, 2006, 05:52:

Southern Dyme I Didnt attend Uni in Cali, I visit often though because ive got some friends there, I go to uni In Bogota. I am guessing you are talking about Universidad Santiago de Cali? If not then I am totally lost, I know the best Unis in Cali are: Icesi, Javeriana, Autonoma and Universidad del Valle. The first three are located in the south which is a pretty safe area. However, I havent got a clue when it comes to USC's location or its reputation. I could find out if you want, what's your degree scheme? And when are you planning on coming over?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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juanalejo says on Jan 31, 2006, 17:15:

USC is in a good area of Cali on Ave 5 on near the bull fight arena, but is not the best university in town. Have a look at San Buenaventura or Javeriana, which are both in Pance in a beautiful location and have a more challenging curriculum. www.usb.edu.co www.puj.edu.co

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 2, 2006, 10:17:

about GD's post... ...LMAO! G5 is more than welcome to come along if he wants. I can't see him parting with those albums though...hehehehehe.

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 2, 2006, 10:18:

G5 So you would sell some albums to escort me around BOG? En serio?

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 2, 2006, 10:25:

Wasteland... The reason I chose Cali over Bogota is because I was warned thoroughly by a close professor of mine not to go there, and she would feel more reassured with the thought of me being near the coast.

I was starting to rethink BOG when many people on this site kept recommending it over and over again, but I discussed it on Tuesday with another professor who has been to both places and he told me Bogota is too dangerous for me to go to and that I would stand out more so there than in Cali. He told me that in Cali I would attract less attention unless I started talking...LOL!!! As far as the best/most challenging universities being in BOG, I feel ok with the less challenging schools. I'm definitely not a slacker, and the school that I currently attend is highly acclaimed on an international level so I have challenges to meet everyday, but by Spanish not being my first language and trying to adapt to a new environment, I feel ok with a school that is not as challenging...hehehehe.

G5 has definitely put me on guard, that's for sure. I'll try not to get too complacent, and I appreciate that candle!

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 2, 2006, 10:31:

Cereal... ...that's what I had for breakfast! LOL. Anyhow, getting back to the subject at hand, you are correct in your asumption that I was referring to Universidad Santiago de Cali. I think I looked at Javeriana's website (someone posted a thread a while back that contained some links for uni's in COL), and I did not see any info that talked about an exchange program (or maybe I'm getting it confused with another site I looked at). I saw some that offered language schools, but I'm not interested in language schools, as my level of Spanish is pretty good.

I would love it if you could find out more about USC's location/reputation. My degree scheme is actually Spanish, but from what I saw on their website, they do not offer a Masters in Spanish, which is ok with me. I want to take some of the undergrad courses that will provide me with more knowledge in the areas of etnomusicology, communications, etc. I want to come over in August, just in time to start the fall semester.

Thanks for all of your help in advance!

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 2, 2006, 10:33:

Juan... you know, I looked at USB's website, but there isn't much on it...LOL. I'm glad to know that USC is in a good area. Are there a lot of rooms for rent that are close by?

Gracias...

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 2, 2006, 11:00:

Bogota is more dangerous than Cali? And your professors know this because... they've been both places? And they've decided that you'll stand out more in Bogota than in Cali?

They want you "nearer the coast????"
You want a less challenging university?
And Cartagena never entered the equation?

Geeze... it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Again, SD, I wish you great luck, but I just can't read this thread anymore.

May the angels watch over you.

Wasteland

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 2, 2006, 13:40:

Southern Dyme..... As to my music.....although I don't listen to much these days, I don't know if I am at that point where I might want to sell it.

As to me escorting you.....if I am around, then maybe we can meet up. But as far as me escorting you??? I would be glad to do so in BOG.....(if I am there). Of course I would escort you around BOG? No compensation needed. Just your friendship and an absolute promise to me that you will be careful in Cali.

And as to someone's assertion that BOG is more dangerous than Cali....all I can say is, "Yea Sure."

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caslug says on Feb 2, 2006, 14:22:

BOG is a LOT bigger city.. so MAYBE your professor is saying that BEING a BIGGER city YOU would have more problems(ie, NY versus Evensville, IN). That's true to SOME extent, for example in BOG the north is safe. BUT if you're school is in Centro then you have to commute or live in a bad area. While in Cali, it's much smaller city and USC is near Unicentro(nice/semi-safe/residental area) so a student can easily find place to live CLOSE to the school that is walking distance and safe(relatively). Remmber that while NYC as a whole MAYBE more dangerous than Evansville, ALL of Manhanttan is pretty much VERY SAFE while parts of other other buroughs maybe not. BOG is like that, if you live/commute in the North you'll be lot safer than in cali(relatively)

ALso, I would ask when was the last time your professors visit Cali or BOG? Because Cali HAS gotten MORE dangerous the past several years, Tinto can post crime statistics. BUT everyone knows that while crime in BOG/MED DECLINE the past several years, CALI took the opposit trend and crime went UP. As for academic reputation, I dont think it matters in your case, because your only doing a year. You're really going for the experience of living in another country AND you're planning to study salsa/spanish.

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 2, 2006, 20:22:

Southern_Dyme, if there is one thing that we can all agree on it's this. You have received some very bad advice regarding the comparative safety of Bogota versus Cali. Bogota is far safer than Cali. In fact it is completely ridiculous to hear that you were advised that you would be safer in Cali than in Bogota. Bogota is the capital and principal city of Colombia. It has many more foreign visitors and residents than the other cities and it is rather cosmopolitan in nature.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 2, 2006, 20:50:

GringoD Me voy a proteger la Ella necesita y una guia tourista. Estoy listo !!!
And as to me leving Chgo, (friendly, albeit cold) I know that I can go and rise to the occasion in wonderful Bogota.

I'll just have to be carefull of GIB and Juanalejo...they might want to steal her away from me

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Feb 3, 2006, 12:31:

just a couple of things just in case Southern_Dyme is still reading this. I'll have to agree with utopia cowboy on that you have been receiving some really bad advice. Do your professors who recommended Cali over Bogotá for safety reasons have much knowledge of Colombia? I know Cali really well and Bogotá just a little, but I am fairly sure that just for safety reasons I would choose bogotá myself. Cali is not that near to the coast; it's two and a half hours drive to the nearest Pacific port, Buenaventura, which is very unsafe and the road can only be travelled during daylight hours, for safety reasons.

I love Cali, it's my second home, but I don't want you to make a decision based on bad advice.

Cheers,
Desi




Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 3, 2006, 14:05:

I guess people people don't read my posts BUT It was G5, who back on page one, had said in as clear as words as possible, that Bogota is the safest city to go to. And by the way, I said it again, several posts above, even before UTC reiterated what I had previously said twice. It's right there, for all to see.

At the same time, any travel guide worth a penny or two will tell you if you go to Colombia.....keep your butt out of Cali. So, I'm not coming up with anything original....

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caslug says on Feb 3, 2006, 15:29:

another day another shooting in cali... http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/16638

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 3, 2006, 21:20:

Just what this thread needs.... ...is yet another post.

But these "is it safe" threads are getting rather tedious. They remind me of the people who can't admit they made up their mind without getting some sort of group of people who agree around them.

The process goes like this:

• I want to do "X" (where "X" could be anything from "buy this pair of expensive shoes" to "go to FARC-infested Colombia")


• "X" could be risky so I'll find a bunch of people who also think I should do "X" but that search is phrased like "Do you think it's a good idea to do "X?"


• Really there's no question because those who agree will be "right" and those who don't will be argued with or just simply ignored. (which is where this thread seems to be)


• They do "X" and something good happens so their approach is affirmed or something bad happens but that's because all those other people said it would be OK (remember, all the ones who said it wouldn't have long been forgotten about)


• Either way, what happens is either the result of "a sound decision based on research" (the "good" scenario) or the result of "believing all those people who lied (i.e. the one's that were previously right before the decision)"


• Complete deniability

What a waste of time.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 00:05:

Crazy4Cali YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY !!! I swore I was not going to add anymore to this thread. But your observation is exactly what I have been saying here for the longest time.

A bunch of silly people who develop a preconcieved notion, and then go to places like this web site for anecdotal information to justify their notion.....

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Monpirri says on Feb 4, 2006, 22:14:

Joe Arroyo at the Vallenato Festival in Florida?

From right to left, the gentleman with the yellow jacket looks likeJoe Arroyo!

www.congodeoro.com/WelcomeStage.htm

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 6, 2006, 16:52:

To rocinante Newsflash...the gov't is prohibiting us from going to Cuba. That would've been my first choice (I guess you didn't read the previous posts). I also gave my reasons for not wanting to go to PR. As far as my needing to "hit the 9th grade"....puhleese! You know, I could be just as ignorant and reply to your message in the same cynical manner that you did to me, but being the BIGGER person I refuse to do that.

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 6, 2006, 16:54:

Monpirri it sure does look like him!

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Monpirri says on Feb 6, 2006, 20:25:

Southern_Dyme,

If you want to start your music thesis here or in Florida before you fly to Colombia you could travel to Florida and party and work? at the III Vallenato Festival 2006, Saturday, February 19th – Bayfront Park, Downtown Miami.

www.congodeoro.com/WelcomeStage.htm For more details, call 305-599-0069

It looks like Joe Arroyo is going to be at the Festival and you could interview him, as you know he also sings Cumbias and today he is also known in the Salsa world. Florida would be a good place to start your project because Colombian music has found a home there. Here are more details in Spanish:
Las tradiciones musicales colombianas en Miami
www.historicalmuseum.org/folklife/sa_music/espanol/colombian.htm
www.historical-museum.org/folklife/sa_music/espanol/introduction.htm

If you would like to cast your vote for Joe Arroyo for the Top Ten Songs, click on this link www.univision.com/content/channel.jhtml?chid=9514&schid=9803
Don’t forget for the next thesis, “Musica Llanera” LOL...just kidding, but do listen to it! Info., about this musical genre is also on the link above, “Las tradiciones musicales colombianas en Miami”
Let me know if can be of any help,

Monpirri AKA “Yo me llamo Cumbia”

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 12, 2006, 09:14:

Monpirri The music festival sounds like it will be tons of fun! I only wish I could go. Perhaps next year....

I will have to check out the llanera. I've never heard of it before, and you've sparked my interest now. Thanks for the ideas.

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Southern_Dyme says on Feb 12, 2006, 09:17:

GringoD Hmm...me....hate salsa? Never that! LOL. Even after listening to 400 albums, I can't see it happening...hehehehehe.

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Monpirri says on Feb 12, 2006, 17:04:

Southern_Dyme Here are more details about música llanera:

[Música]Llanera is the music of the Los Llanos, the grasslands which stretch halfway across Colombia into Venezuela. The lead instrument is the harp, accompanied by some other string instruments such as the cuatro, the bandola, the bandolón and the tiple. The music can be played to dance to (joropo) or listened to (coplas, romances and tonadas).

http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata122.htm

Point of interest:
Not all llanera music are recited; some are recited, some are regular style, and others are just classical or just string instruments only. Here some favorites from my "Las Bellezas de mi Llano" cassette collection:

Romance de la Cañada, must listen to this Llanera song!
La Potranca Zaina
Rio Aruaca
Sin Motivo y Sin Razon
El Anima de Santa Helena
Caballo Viejo
Mujer Llanera
Criollada No. 1 Como llora una estrella/Pasillaneando/Madrugada Llanera/El muñeco de la ciudad/El gavilan, Llanera tenias que ser.
El Venado Del Espinero, recite about the experience of hunting the deer.
El Cazador Novato
Contrapunteo, this one is a musical duel between a man and woman.
Ser Llanero Cuesta Caro.
San Rafaelito Y Los Diamantes, you must listen to this classical llanera.

Here's website link about a Llanera group.
Cimarron
Cimarron is one of the better-known llanera groups in Colombia. The ensemble has collaborated on recordings with many other llanera artists, and performed llanera festivals throughout Latin America. The group has also played as an invited group with the Philharmonic Orchestra of Bogota and the Symphonic Orchestra of Colombia in the presentation of orchestral versions of llanera music . In representation of Colombia it has been invited to play in artistic events in Venezuela, Mexico, Guatemala, Sweden, France, Italy, England and the United States.

www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/artist_detail.cfm?artist_id=CIMARRONYO.html"

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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BxUnika says on Feb 12, 2006, 23:23:

Studying Salsa/Cali I know that this is really going to burst your bubble, Southern Dyme, but if you want to study salsa, why are you going to Colombia PERIOD? Colombia has it's salsa groups but I have to roll my eyes whenever anyone refers to Cali as "La Capital de La Salsa". In reality, salsa is a mixture of Cuban rhythms (Son, Son-Montuno, Guaracha, Guaguaco, etc.) and Puerto Rican rhythms (plena, bomba, etc.) mixed with American Jazz and Big Band elements along with other genres, depending on the time and artist's background. All these mixtures weree crystallized in NEW YORK CITY. Salsa is a NY thing, not a Colombian thing or even really a purely Cuban or Puerto Rican thing because of the wide mixture of influences.

If you really want to learn about salsa music, come to NYC. I am willing to bet that you would learn much more about salsa from the average Puerto Rican abuelo in El Barrio or the South Bronx than you would in a year in Cali in the university. If you wnat salsa, come here. Most of the big super stars of salsa are either from the NYC area or lived here for some time(Hector Lavoe, Willie Colon, Celia Cruz, Johnny Pacheco, Larry Harlow, La India, Marc Anthony, Jimmy Bosch, etc.). If you REALLY want to learn about salsa, I could even probably give you some names of people who could help you and colleges to go to where they have strong Latin American & Puerto Rican Studies departments. Hell, I could teach you a few things.

Ok, the part about Cali...I have lived in places like the Bronx and Washington Heights (the drug dealing capital of NY). I would NOT go to Cali alone and I have resided in ghettoes. I would feel safer in the South BRonx or Harlem than I probably would in Cali (I have not been there, but have many friends who are from there). A lot of young people are trying to leave Cali now in the past few years because of the crime and because the job situation is lousy. Given that why the hell would you want to go without knowing anybody there personally as a gringa who's never been to Colombia period? Follow advice- go to Bogota or Cartagena or even Medellin, but other than visits, I advise against just blindly going to Cali. Eso esta dando demasiado papaya.

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Southern_Dyme says on Mar 30, 2006, 19:00:

Thanks I've been gone for a looooooooooooooong minute due to some personal situations that arose, but I want to thank those of you who replied since I last checked. BxUnika, I will definitely look into the NYC scene. I will send you a personal message with some more info. Monpriri, thank you for the info on Llanera.

Also, for those of you who recommended that I go to PR to look into salsa a little more, I went there for spring break and I was TOTALLY disappointed. Besides the fact that PR is very americanized, I barely heard any salsa. It was all about reggaeton. In fact, I told myself as I was getting back on the plane to come home that I would scream if I heard one more reggaeton song...LOL. I could barely tolerate spending a week there, so I know moving there for an extended period of time is out.

As far as my trip to Colombia is concerned, I have decided to postpone it for a little while. I want to apply for the Fulbright program, because I will be able to get more funds that way, plus have a network of people that will help me out when I get there. My most immediate trip will be Panama. If anyone knows anything about Panama please let me know. Who knows, perhaps I can fly to Colombia for a few days while I'm there.

TTYL...

SD

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Simon says on Mar 30, 2006, 20:18:

"I would feel safer in the South BRonx or Harlem than I probably would in Cali (I have not been there, but have many friends who are from there)"


It's funny how this BuxNika comes off as such an expert on Cali when she even admits she's never been there. Then she even has the nerve to discredit Cali as 'La Capital de la Salsa'! New York's salsa heyday was back in the 70's and Cuba lost that title when they went communist! And there's a very simple reason why Cali is bigger on salsa then New York. The average New Yorker, who is not hispanic, is completely oblivious to the salsa culture, whereas the only caleños who are apathetic about salsa are either in comas or six feet under ground! Most caleños dance, breathe, and live salsa! La Feria de Cali, which lasts for an entire week, is the world's main salsa festival and the world's top salsa acts attend every year! What does New Yor even have in terms of salsa events to rival 'la Feria de Cali'?

"Salsa is a NY thing, not a Colombian thing or even really a purely Cuban or Puerto Rican thing because of the wide mixture of influences."

Yeah right, that's why they always play salsa at the Yankees or Knicks games, right?

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Monpirri says on Mar 30, 2006, 20:55:

Southern_Dyme You are welcome!
I believe Desi, a fine lady and an expert on Colombia, still in Cali enjoying her vacation.
She post once in a while when someone has a question about Cali, but if you have any further questions about Cali go ahead and post a question to Desideria. She has a thread here on PBH “Cali Newsflash”

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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mariasman says on Mar 31, 2006, 04:52:

If your Thesis is on Salsa then If your Thesis is going to be on Salsa, then Cali is the Harvard of The world. Listen, I am living in Cali rite now(and will be forever) and I have never had a problem. Just try to speak the Lingo and don't advertize yourself like the other Gringo's that want everyone to know they are a gringo so all the Colombians will bow to them and you will be ok. Try to make friends with a Calena and you will have no problems. Stay away from the other Gringo's who want to be noticed as Gringo's or you will never know Cali. It's just like any city here. Use common sence. These guys watch too many movies( except for caslug). I actually met him here. Listen to his advice.

mariasman

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mariasman says on Mar 31, 2006, 05:05:

Oh yes,,, one more thing Alot of the posters on here know me as the Basher of "The American Woman" but I am giving you a pass in the hopes that you will not only learn something here about Salsa but also about how to be a real woman as well. Please think about changing your thesis topic on Salsa to "How to act like a woman" or maybe "How to be feminine". You are holding all the cards. Think of yourself as Americas last hope. This is not an attack towards you as you can think of yourself as The Cristobol Colon of the womens world in an attempt to discover uncharted behaviors. Kidding!!!! Naaaaa. Good luck with your thesis. I am sure that you are one of the good ones. Remember,,, Don't let me down. Good American men are counting on you. Have a great time here in Cali.

mariasman

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mariasman says on Mar 31, 2006, 05:19:

The BxUnica comment is BS You know what. Italy invented the pizza but America perfected it. This sounds like a jealous boriquena who had her boyfriend stolen by a Calena or something. Truth is that Cuba and Colombia rival eachother in Salsa. They are both good places to learn about Salsa culture. I think that you would be alot safer in Cali because I( a native NewYorker) would never recomend a Barrio in the Bronx to anyone( especially an extranjero/a). All you will learn from that experiance is how to be ghetto. Thats the difference. Do you want to learn Real latin culture or Ghetto Latin Culture? Puertorican women are the most viscious of all the female races. Thats a fact. These women are the most viscious like Piranah to the fish world. They have become rouges of womanhood. Now thats a thesis for you.

mariasman

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mariasman says on Mar 31, 2006, 11:22:

Oh yes,,,, one more thing. I don't even have to leave my neighborhood here in La Flora(Cali) to hear Salsa. The neighbors play it all night long. We have even called the police at times( past 3am). You can walk thru the neighborhoods here and hear salsa. Don't listen to these nay sayers about not coming here because they all want to. How are they the experts when they have never been here. Try to bring a friend. I hope you know Spanish. If not, start learning some now. ie: Donde venden un buen perro caliente aqui? because the Hotdogs here are what you really need to be affraid of.

mariasman

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 31, 2006, 15:33:

thank you, monpirri for your kind words.
Yes, I'm still in Cali and will be here until May 18. I haven't experienced anything threating my personal security here, but I'm taking the "normal" precautions I'd take in any larger city, plus a couple of extra (calling for a taxi after nightfall, have a friend acccompany me when retiring larger sums of money from ATMs, not flashing expensive jewelry...but by now, I suspect we all know how to behave ourselves in a larger Colombian city).

After this month and a half here I cannot advice anybody, male or female against traveling to Cali, considering personal safety issues. That you have to be careful, it obvious, cannot be repeated too many times. Cali is still that wonderful, vibrant, friendly city I once knew. It's grown a lot and changed a lot and not all that is good. Cali is a city in transformation but stil retains a lot of its original charm and magic.

I've been meeting with local long-time residents (gringos, Europeans) comparing the city with the one we knew when we first came here. There are gringos and gringas living here who speak good Spanish, have adapted well to local lifestyle and would not ever again live in USA or Europe again. They feel safe enough here in Cali.

As to the disparaging comments about "American women" made by mariasman; I don't really have much to say about the matter. I don't see myself as being "masculine" or having much to learn from the Caleñas in matter of personal appearance of way of behaving or relating to other individuals of either sex. That women from other countries should come here to learn a lesson from Caleñas is his personal opinion, nothing more.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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mariasman says on Apr 11, 2006, 13:00:

Actually According to the Bureau of American statistics mortality rates are not only at an alltime high in the States but the leading cause of death is no longer Heart disease or Lung Cancer or Gang Violence but rather Marriage which dwarfs all three of the prior leading causes of death. I don't blame the American man at all for packing up and getting the "F" out and as a matter of fact, I joined the cause even under threat of Guerilla attack and Killer taxi and La Cucaracha and No sparkletts drinking water, I LEFT and found that I didn't have to live under the real American that makes Alqueda look like camp snoopy. Run fellow Bretheren. Remember back when The English Colonized the new world and then emancipated itself from England? Well, This is in effect what we are in fact now doing. The Antichrist is near and supposedly "He", could in fact be a "SHE". It could very well even be my EX.

mariasman

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Southern_Dyme says on Apr 17, 2006, 16:08:

Monpirri Thanks for letting me know about Desi's thread. She is very helpful, and offered her advice when I first started this thread. I look forward to reading up on the progress of her trip.

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Southern_Dyme says on Apr 17, 2006, 16:11:

Mariasman Thank you for that advice. I definitely plan to still travel to Colombia (and hopefully Cali) in the future, so I will keep what you said in mind. I do not like being in the limelight, so a low profile is a must on my list...lol. I've been working on the lingo, and learning phrases from my friends who are from that area. I should be well-versed in "Calingo" by the time I make my trip! Thanks again for your suggestions!

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Southern_Dyme says on Apr 17, 2006, 16:16:

Desi I'm so happy to hear that your trip is going well, and without incident! I can't wait for you to post photos so I can see more of this city I've been hearing all about. And when you do return home, I would love to hear about some of the places you would recommend a nonnative to visit that isn't too touristy, but also safe.

Thanks for updating me on how things are progressing for you.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2006, 13:54:

Southern_Dyme Only one more month left for me here in this warm, rainy, sunny, breezy, cloudy, sultry Cali. The weather changes from one instant to another but it's never cold (at least not for me). I'll be posting a trip report of some kind when back home. I hope I can post pictures too; I'm not all that good at reducing the sizes to fit the image gallery.

BTW, I was talking to this friend of mine (female) whom I'm staying at and asked if she could think about having a paying guest or rent the upstairs bedroom with a private bath to a gringa and she said yes. I was thinking about you and other female visitors who might prefer to stay at a private home instead of a hotel for the stay in Cali. Let me know if you still plan to visit Cali or need accommodations.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Southern_Dyme says on Apr 18, 2006, 20:15:

Thanks Desi!!! A trip report (like a photo diary or such) would be excellent! I'm sure someone up here could be helpful enough to give you the right info on how to size the pics in a simple manner so that you can share them with the PBH members.

Thank you for thinking of me in part when asking your friend about renting the room. That would be great, and I certainly do plan to visit Cali, although at a later date. I will keep you posted as the time draws nearer for me to take my trip.

~SD~

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BxUnika says on Apr 19, 2006, 22:02:

at Simon "It's funny how this BuxNika comes off as such an expert on Cali when she even admits she's never been there. Then she even has the nerve to discredit Cali as 'La Capital de la Salsa'! New York's salsa heyday was back in the 70's and Cuba lost that title when they went communist! And there's a very simple reason why Cali is bigger on salsa then New York. The average New Yorker, who is not hispanic, is completely oblivious to the salsa culture, whereas the only caleños who are apathetic about salsa are either in comas or six feet under ground! Most caleños dance, breathe, and live salsa! La Feria de Cali, which lasts for an entire week, is the world's main salsa festival and the world's top salsa acts attend every year! What does New Yor even have in terms of salsa events to rival 'la Feria de Cali'?"

So because something is popular in a place gives that place more credibility than the place or origin? I'll be Celia and Tito are rolling in their graves.

"
You know what. Italy invented the pizza but America perfected it. This sounds like a jealous boriquena who had her boyfriend stolen by a Calena or something."

Not a PR...not even Hispanic.

"Truth is that Cuba and Colombia rival eachother in Salsa. They are both good places to learn about Salsa culture."

Cuba, but not Cali. Most of Salsa's roots are Cuban Rhythms.

"I think that you would be alot safer in Cali because I( a native NewYorker) would never recomend a Barrio in the Bronx to anyone( especially an extranjero/a)."

Oh, yeah...and culd that be because you live in one of those gomelito barrios in North Cali. Would you also feel safe going to Siloe or Aguablanca? When was the last time you were even in NYC? We have one of the lowest crime rates of any city in the US, no less the world. Not to menion taht Cali is now the city with the highest crime rate in Colombia. Hmmmm...Cali is so safe and wonderful...I guess that's why so many calenos come here on tourist visas and never go back, huh? Come on, let's be realistic here. When was the last time you hear about guerilla groups kidnapping people on Tremont Ave.?

"All you will learn from that experiance is how to be ghetto. Thats the difference. Do you want to learn Real latin culture or Ghetto Latin Culture?"

Um, I think the distinction is pretty clear. One can avoid ghetto places and be directed towards ones that definitely are not. Or did you forget, salsa is not a music of rich people? Do you even know who Hector Lavoe, Willie Colon, Ruben Blades, or Fania All-Stars are?

"Puertorican women are the most viscious of all the female races. Thats a fact. These women are the most viscious like Piranah to the fish world. They have become rouges of womanhood. Now thats a thesis for you."

Great, so you hate Puerto Ricans. Congratulations. But to act as if Colombians invented it? Give me a break.

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Monpirri says on Apr 20, 2006, 05:56:

BxUnika Many of the Salsa artists, as the ones you have mentioned, travel or have been in Cali during the "Feria de Cali" and the Fania All-Stars have been in Cali several times.
About the negative comment about women from Puerto Rico, I have nothing but pleasant memories with Puerto Rican girls. When I was in high school almost all the fine Puerto Ricans girls wanted to date me. They are very attractive and very patriotic! I do not think Simon said anything about these fine babes.
Southern_Dyme Bon Voyage!

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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mariasman says on Apr 20, 2006, 10:51:

Bs.Unika After you visit Cali, then you can tell me whatever you want and the rest of the world what you think. I still stand by my comment as Puertorican women being among the most viscious however with the new amendment that you are their queen. Any place can be dangerous and since NewYork is the target of every camel jockey's wetdream to blow up, why would you recommend the Ghetto to anyone who wanted to learn Salsa culture. Maybe some NewYorkers can dance Salsa but here in Cali, people live Salsa. It runs deep thru their veins. I'll bet that you are too ghetto to travel anywhere. Do yourself a favor and just keep your Salsa to yourself. I'll bet you are fat too huh? I'll bet that you have those big doughy standard Puertorican fluffbread feet and the classic stork legs with dual cellulite cantalope ass cheeks. Oh yes, and lets not forget the classic heat ironed hair pressed into a PIXAR claymation hairstyle with a bottom rollaway curl. How do you like that one. Ignorance can only be cured by ignorance. So, with that said, wait til you visit, if you ever visit before you make a remark about a place that is so beautiful.

mariasman

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Monpirri says on Apr 20, 2006, 11:16:

"What's the matter with you boy?" I've been walking in Central Park
Singing after dark
People think I'm crazy
I've been stumbling on my feet
Shuffling through the street
Asking people, "What's the matter with you boy?"

...Well, I've been haunted in my sleep
You've been starring in my dreams
Lord I miss you
I've been waiting in the hall
Been waiting on your call
When the phone rings
It's just some friends of mine that say,
"Hey, what's the matter man?
We're gonna come around at twelve
With some Puerto Rican girls that are just dyin' to meet you.
We're gonna bring a case of wine
Hey, let's go mess and fool around
You know, like we used to"

I can't get no satisfaction
The Rolling Stones

P.D. My tribute to the fine and patriotic Puerto Rican Girls

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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mariasman says on Apr 20, 2006, 12:13:

Monpirri1 Believe me, you won't be writting poetry like that after you are married to one of them. Instead, you will be filing a divorce decree and childsupport for all the kids that she had.
Why is my check so small?
Why can't I buy something from the mall?
Why can't I paint my walls?
Why can't I feed my face
or pay my bills or pay for this place?
Why isnt she working rite now?
Why is she as big as a cow?
Why do I want to run her over with a snow plow?
She always on the couch
never cooks or cleans
neither rice nor beans
The toilet is always dirty
There is bread crumbs on the floor
The alfombra is burried in chocolate syrup
and she never changes the vacume cleaner bag
And..... she is starting to grow a mustache.


This is the tune you will be singing if you marry a Puertorican. Here is another piece of advice. Puertorican women are not only the most viscious and greedy( for child support) but they are also the most lazy. Show a Puertorican woman a couch and see her slouch.

mariasman

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Southern_Dyme says on Apr 20, 2006, 15:43:

GringoD How funny! Well, hopefully she has tough skin like I do, because you are right, I've read some things up here that could upset some people, but I just had to look at it and laugh it off a bit. I found some of the insults that were directed towards me to be quite funny. I have a way of twisting it around that way. Maybe she has read this thread and hopefully it will be helpful to her.

As far as my trip is concerned...it will not be until next year now. I have decided to go to Panam first, because I just felt a little uneasy in the end going to Cali blind, with no contacts. The one I thought I had didn't work out. When I go next year it will hopefully be via the Fulbright program (have you heard of it?). I will have people to help me get settled and adjust to life in Colombia. Thanks for thinking of me...don't I feel special now!

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Monpirri says on Apr 20, 2006, 20:05:

Ok I am not going to argue or discuss this any more!
I have several friends and they are not like the "ones" you have so carefully detailed.
Every country has vicious men, lazy men, charlatan men, self-fish men, unfaithful men and vicious women, lazy women, gossipmonger women, conceited women, etc.,etc.

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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mariasman says on Apr 21, 2006, 07:05:

Bs.Unika Listen BsUnika
Muah don’t like Puerto Ricans??? First of all, one of my favorite people in the world is Ramon. Ramon is the coolest Puerto Rican I have ever met and I miss him. He himself used to tell me “You know, maaaaaaaaan, Puerto Rican women are nothing but trouble.” It was after that when a friend of Ramon introduced me to Nereyda after my divorce from Satan. I needed a room and she needed a roommate so it wasn’t long after when I moved in.
Introduction to the beast.
Part 1. I remember moving in and all of her furniture in the living room was broken and destroyed. I remember seeing all the cigarette butts on the patio, which reeked. I remember the line of ants in the kitchen, which at that moment, I should have, ran but since I was desperate just to have my own room, I stayed and thought of it as an adventure. Well, I had bought a box of new Teflon pans and my first grocery which maybe she felt was hers because the very next day, my food was missing and my pans (which I had not even used yet) were dirty on the stove with who knows what growing inside. Anyway, I thought, “ahhhh WTF” so I cleaned them and I couldn’t believe what I saw. She had used a fork and scratched up the whole bottom of the pan. I was pissed. I she knew salsa all rite because she ate all the salsa that I had in the refrigerator.
She never seemed to buy food but there was always beer and a bottle of Irelands finest on hand and tons of cigarettes. Her side of the house was like a pigs wet dream. It was club med for the roaches and a conga line for the ants. Thank god the spiders stayed on my side of the house. There was always a smell of fermenting beer no matter where you were so my grocery bill also included arsenals of carpet fresh and renuzit air freshener.
Part 2. “Bill collection” I remember that I had set up an account with my landlord (Jerry Thatcher) to have bank of America deposit my half of the rent into his account every month so I never had to worry about that. Well, one day, she came to me and said “ Hey Chris, Did you see this?” and I said “what” and she said, “It’s an eviction notice because Jerry is saying that he is not getting the rent.” Then she even had the nerve to ask me “ Are you paying your rent?” I was pissed so I called Jerry and said, “Hey jerry, I got an eviction notice here. What’s going on? Aren’t you getting my rent?” to which he replied, “well, I am getting your half deposited from the bank but Nereyda is 2 months behind” I then went towar5d her room and I could see her hiding listening by the side of the wall. I couldn’t believe it. I gave her cash for the first 2 months because she said that she would pay him. Then the cable bill came and that was like almost 400$ because she was late like 3 months and she had the nerve to ask me to pay half. I laughed and said, I don’t even have a cable to my room. I can’t even watch cable. No, I am sorry but I can’t help you.
Part 3. “ Moving Day” I remember that I had spent 2 weeks slowly packing all my stuff and cleaning all my side of the apartment. Sunday morning came when was supposed to be our last day and she had not packed a single thing. I remember as I started moving all my stuff down the stairs, I was greeted by her mother and thru the course of that morning, I watched her mom packing Nereyda’s stuff and carrying it down those stairs all by herself while Nereyda just sat there at the kitchen table doing her nails and talking on the phone. Some of those boxes were heavy and normally I am a gentleman but I wasn’t going to give that “C” the satisfaction of seeing me do her dirty work so I just swallowed my dignity. I remember putting the last box into the camaro and driving away. What a wonderful feeling that was. My wife met her when she came out to visit me for the first time and even she said that she didn’t know how I did it and she even felt sorry for me. It was funny but one night, I came home with my wife (she was just my girlfriend at the time) and Nereyda just happened to show up at the same time with her boyfriend and as we walked into the apartment together at the same time, as soon as the lights came on, her boyfriends eyes almost popped out of his head as he just kept staring at my soon to be wife. Nereyda went to him and grabbed his arm like she was trying to hold on for life. That was a sweet revenge for all the pain that I had suffered.

Now as for the comment about “as for Colombians inventing it, give me a break” well, I never said that in any of my posts. All I said is that Colombia (Cali for my experience) is among the most diverse in the Salsa culture. Yes, Italy invented the Pizza and America perfected it. Yes, Germany invented Atomic bombs and America, China and Russia perfected them. Yes Germany invented the first fighter jet and yet Russia perfected it just like Puertorico invented the cockroach and they all moved to the states via banana boat and how America invented welfare and the Puerto Ricans make the most of it. America invented Chlamydia and the Puerto Ricans made a woman’s name out of it.

In essence, all I am saying is just lets talk about the here and now. It’s obvious to me that you are jealous of Colombians and why? Colombians export Coffee and sugar (sometimes the wrong sugar but everybody has their problems) and beautiful flowers and other things as well. What does Puerto Rico export? Trouble. Puerto rico exports Trouble, looting, shooting, laziness, horrible hairstyles and bad feminine hygiene

I would like to thank the teams at the TROJAN condom industry for saving America billions of dollars form prevented child support payments. You people are doing America a great service and are the real American patriots.

One more thing, I truly believe that America is the target of the entire Muslim world first because America is pushing Democracy in this area of the world but secondly because these Arab and Muslim cultures have seen what has happened in the states first hand and they are scared. This is why they want to destroy big Satan and little Satan as they refer to the USA and Israel. This is why they have declared a HOLY WAR asking Allah for his help. It was written in the ancient Muslim manuscripts that “ When the skies turned black with ash and the seas ran red with blood and acid started pouring from the skies while the earth cracked and shifted and yet then, a piercing, blood curdling roar came from with the great city of New York and it said I NEED MORE CHILDSUPPORT!!!!!!! Remember, give a Puerto Rican woman some wine and waste your time so instead give her some rope and hope (hope she plays LONE RANGER with a ceiling fan and a dining room chair). This one was for you Ramon. You go boy. I should have listened to you. I am sorry.

mariasman

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mariasman says on Apr 22, 2006, 13:07:

You are welcome Southern Dyme You know, wherever you go, you are going to learn something about salsa. You might even learn a thing or two in panama. Just stay away from NewYork City and definately El Salvador. I can't claim to be the expert on this place however, from what I have seen, please don't go there for your thesis unless you are planning to study giant forheads. I found it striking the similarities I noticed with the cranial structures found in these indigenous people with those of the Mormons(mainly the men) in Utah. Now those are a bunch a ugly bastids. Anyway, goodluck wherever you go. Cali ain't so bad. Remember, 95% of these people on here have never been to Cali so what do they know. Good luck.

mariasman

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 22, 2006, 19:11:

I did go to Vancouver, British Columbia once. Does that count?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 22, 2006, 19:11:

I did go to Vancouver, British Columbia once. Does that count?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Captain Utero says on Apr 27, 2006, 12:18:

Now these stories were funny Definately some funny shit.

Bigsacko

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MACLARUB says on Apr 30, 2006, 13:24:

if you really going to cali I can help personally I belive live is too short to give or recive so many advices, but if you'r going to cali to learn about salsa, you need to know that "tienda vieja" is not a place for salsa, and that salsa in cali is more than those places in "la avenida sexta" or "juanchito" salsa is part of the history, it became a culture, and you'll need to be involve in this culture to learn about salsa.

There are some places you must to visit and some people you should met to live la salsa in cali.

I can provide you with names, address and phone #s, so you can have a safer and better time in cali.

my name is claudia, I'm living in canada but I spent the best years of my life in cali.

claudia.
maclarub at hotmail.com

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