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Why Uribe Should Not Seek Third Term?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/28/AR2009...

The most compelling reason for his retirement, however, is to strengthen Colombia's democratic institutions. With its vibrant press, independent courts and active civil society, the country stands out as an alternative to the populist autocracy established in neighboring Venezuela. After two tries, Hugo Chávez recently eliminated the limit on his own tenure and now is seeking to destroy what remains of his opposition. In a region plagued by misrule, Mr. Uribe has demonstrated how much a capable elected president can accomplish; now he has the chance to show the importance of placing institutions and the rule of law above any one leader.

By Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) on May 29, 2009, 12:39 in Politics & the war.

Simon says on May 29, 2009, 14:07:

Franklin Roosevelt served four terms. Thatcher and Blair served twelve years. It's interesting how the Washington Post didn't complain about term limits for them.

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 29, 2009, 14:15:

That's ok, Kat1, I know you're an Uribista. I'm basically against all these personality cults and a firm believer in strong democratic institutions. The head of state should have little power and be easy to substitute.

Simon, two different countries, different situations, different political and social development.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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durito2 says on May 29, 2009, 14:16:

"Simon says on May 29, 2009, 14:07 (today): flag

Franklin Roosevelt served four terms. ."

And you know this how?

Why not 7 terms for Uribe? He can become dictator like Chavez.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 29, 2009, 14:21:

Kat, there's an old saying "Be careful with what you pray for for your prayers might be answered".

That's exactly what they thought about Fujimori in Peru...and then he dismissed the Congress...

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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durito2 says on May 29, 2009, 14:36:

That doesn't suggest much confidence in your country to think that only one man is capable of being a successful president. Uribe himself says it is a bad idea for Colombia and it's democracy for him to run again. He's a smart guy.

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Simon says on May 29, 2009, 14:43:

"Simon, two different countries, different situations, different political and social development."

Sure Desi, so it's okay when rich white Europeans do it, but not when poor latinos do it, I see.

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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durito2 says on May 29, 2009, 14:43:

Hey, as a gringo living in Colombia with potential investments here, a third Uribe term would be very good for me.

But, it sets a dangerous precedent. What happens if he serves 3-4 terms and is followed by a Chavez type. The majority here is still poor, it's possible. Then they have precedent for staying in office indefinitely.

The countries made a lot of progress under Uribe, surely it's now capable of moving forward with a different president.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 29, 2009, 14:48:

I think that Colombia and her people have more important issues to concentrate on than strenghening its Democratic principles....how lame is that for a reason???.principles versus the reality of life?? ....and NEWS FLASH!...............Uribe is not that focking idiot Hugo Chavez!!!

Lets hear it for the new PBH Experts on Colombia! DrPhilinamillion, KY, and Darloops!!!!!!! We Salute Your Valuable Contributions to This Forum!

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durito2 says on May 29, 2009, 14:49:

I am not comparing Uribe to Chavez, please read my post again.

But, when you change the laws so a good president can stay in power forever, you open yourself up to someone else abusing those laws down the line. 12 years of Uribe may turn out great. But, you may then get 12 years of someone that's horrible and sets the country back decades.

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durito2 says on May 29, 2009, 14:51:

http://www.semana.com/noticias-nacion/candidato-alternativo/124061.asp...

Or someone else. Surely someone is capable.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 29, 2009, 14:57:

Simon, it has nothing to do with being "rich, white" European, but rather the strength of you democratic institutions. I happen to have a great respect for the Colombian tradition of legality: the Colombians chose Francisco de Paula Santander, the man of law, the man of institutions, the man of democracy over Simon Bolivar, hero, autocrat, turning dictator. Colombians have, wisely, turned away from dictators and juntas ("BOTAS NO!!!) throughout it's history, a tradition to be proud of, as a Colombian. It's what sets you people apart and above many other LA countries and societies.

I also happen to have a lot of respect for the Constitution of '91; it's an outstanding document. It's also the document that Mr. Uribe has considered as his personal carte blanche to the power: to be modified at will, his will.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 15:39:

Uribe ? One narcotraficante, paramilitary friend ...
Poor Colombia.

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 15:41:

Chavez a dictator ? He was elected with more voices than Uribe ...
Some people here are the parrots of Uribe ..

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 15:43:

Colombians are not stupid, Kat, but some of them are very stupid in their political argumentation.

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 15:56:

I am glad that you are not happy.

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 16:02:

Uribe is God not godemichet.

No mas Tasco66 !

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 17:21:

If Colombia has a history of electing so called 'bad presidents', why trust the electorate to re-elect Uribe? sadly this argument lacks logic.

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 17:36:

bad thoughts or thinks or things? I have already directed you to Chomsky to be able to understand why I'm a critic did you read it?

anyways...
do you see logic in the argument makopp? because it doesn't make any sense to me

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 17:43:

ok fine so the choice of Uribe is irrational, carry on

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 17:50:

makopp do you believe Colombians used to be stupid to elect ineffective presidents?

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:07:

"The head of state should have little power and be easy to substitute."

Desi, that was precisely the problem in Colombia until Uribe.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:10:

"He was elected with more voices than Uribe ..."

No shit, that guy never shuts up.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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lpdiver says on May 29, 2009, 18:15:

Ummmm....because it is unconstitutional?

ts

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:15:

when did Colombians stop being naive?
this stuff is too funny
btw, I have never said I'm from Argentina...

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:19:

" romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:15 (today): flag

when did Colombians stop being naive?"


When we started voting for Uribe, why?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 29, 2009, 18:19:

http://www.eltiempo.com/media/produccion/presidente2010/
Here you can get good information about the candidates. Try to contact your favorite.Hand help him to get president. Do something if you want to change colombia, not just talk.

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:21:

"When we started voting for Uribe, why?"
are the majority of Colombians, who did not vote for Uribe still naive?

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:24:

Well the very very very small minority that voted against him is. What was the percentage of the population that voted for somebody other than him, I believe it was 15% of the eligible electorate that cast votes for other candidates, what do you think of that?.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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lpdiver says on May 29, 2009, 18:26:

What does the constitution state today? Hmm?

ts

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:28:

it was you that decided I was from Argentina, though I was born there I tell people that I'm from Colombia as it's were I can identify my ancestry besides growing up there.
it's funny how you two have decided Colombians were naive and then not anymore arbitrarily, almost as if it was a Godly experience.

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:28:

Kat, as long as you and I are the only ones on this thread that actually voted in Colombian elections, s'all that matters. romy, serious question, do you vote? Do they have a Colombian consulate in Calgary?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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lpdiver says on May 29, 2009, 18:29:

Who was it changed for and why?

And when it was changed to allow him reelection he made the statement that he would not seek office again. Just one more time ad infintum.

It is not in fear of Uribe but his followers on that I don't think it wise to change the constitution.

Turn the question around and ask why he SHOULD be allowed to seek a third term? Just because he did good and gee whiz ain't he great?

I has been changed far more times than once btw.

ts

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:29:

"almost as if it was a Godly experience"

You are seeing the light.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:30:

BB- how many people voted for Uribe? a lot less than 20 million I know for sure

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:34:

"just look where most of the people permanently live who are defending Uribe. And where most live who are against Uribe."
BB in san Franciso and kat in the UK I believe...

this conversation is getting ridiculously religious, deciding good and bad and seeing the light etc. will the bible include a chapter on Uribe in the future as the new messiah?

And BB, I was in Cali and voted in the last elections. I plan on making my way to Vancouver if I'm not in cali for the next elections.

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:36:

makopp, summarize my argument then call it stupid because I don't think you understand :o

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:37:

"And BB, I was in Cali and voted in the last elections. I plan on making my way to Vancouver if I'm not in cali for the next elections."

That's why I asked, didn't want to make assumptions.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:38:

"BB- how many people voted for Uribe? a lot less than 20 million I know for sure'

How many voted against him? Less than 12 million?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:40:

say it was 12 million, are then the rest of Colombians naive?

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 29, 2009, 18:41:

when I say naive it was because in the past (and this include my parents) used to follow the traditions of voting for the political party they grew up with or were introduced when young, remember before being part of a certain political party was very strong it was matter or live and death and it was considered a traitor if you vote for the oposite no matter how good he was. Uribe broke that barriers, people who used to be conservatives at heart ( like my dad) or liberals decided to leave their party to vote for someone they have hope for, now we know that no matter which party you are from the most important thing is can you deliver what you promise? and I tell you the next president have a BIG BUT VERY BIG SHOES TO FILL!

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:41:

makopp, most of my family lives in Colombia and I'm in constant communication with them, what's your point?

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lpdiver says on May 29, 2009, 18:44:

The shoes have to be vacated so there is a space to fill first.

ts

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 18:45:

actually I bet Uribe has little feet...
your argument doesn't hold up either, because it would suggest that the president would always be of one party (the majority) and throughout history Colombia has had some of both.

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billyb says on May 29, 2009, 18:47:

"actually I bet Uribe has little feet..."

But big shoes.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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goin_south says on May 29, 2009, 18:56:

Simon: "Sure Desi, so it's okay when rich white Europeans do it, but not when poor latinos do it, I see."

I hardly think it was "poor latinos" that got the constitution changed for the last election. no?

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 19:00:

kat, presidents would be either all liberal or all conservative according to your argument, I'm not sure what you don't understand
besides, do you know what happened to the conservative party in 2002?

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lpdiver says on May 29, 2009, 19:05:

"Despite his links to paramilitaries and drug cartels, Uribe won the presidency. But to call Uribe's victory a landslide—as many in and outside Colombia did—is a gross distortion of the facts. Uribe received 53 percent of the official vote, but only 25 percent of the electorate voted.

There were paramilitaries in the voting booths. They destroyed a lot of ballots. This was denounced to the Ombudsman, but nothing happened." Electoral fraud, widespread paramilitary threats—denounced by virtually all the other candidates during the election campaign—and the almost total decimation of the electoral left in the preceding decade all contributed to Uribe's election victory."

Food for thought.

ts

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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romy says on May 29, 2009, 19:18:

We don't have to agree, but if you tell me what you think the president of Colombia should believe in, what the priorities should be, your stance on the controversial issues, and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the current president, then I could suggest some names that might fit you better. But by nature, I don't believe one person is better than another because that is all based on subjective judgment.

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britabroad says on May 29, 2009, 19:31:

Is Colombia to have democracy, or not?

If the majority of the voting Colombian public want Uribe as President for the next 30 years, that´s surely up to them - and him if he´s willing.

Living here, the only individuals who I hear slating Uribe are either the ultra rich (who don´t like his implimentation of a minimum wage, health services for the poor, etc) and the leftists who bang on about Colombians human rights records.
The other 80 per cent have nothing but praise for the guy and echo Kats sentiments.

And I don´t feel that its just Uribe who´s getting things going and making the country safer. He has a good, efficient and effective team, any one of which could take up the mantle if Uribe stood down or was knocked down.....like "mini Uribe" the Agriculture Minister and the Defence Minister, whose name escapes me.

Stability and security are the two most important aspects of government for the average Colombian after decades of turmoil. If Uribe delivers them, what´s wrong with him remaining President for as long as it takes?

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

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Miguel says on May 29, 2009, 19:41:

From what I see, if the election was held today AND Uribe was in the race, he would win hands down.

Granted, his popularity has decreased, but not to the point that he would lose the election.

If the election was held today and Uribe was NOT in the race and Santos was, Santos would be the next president of Colombia. Once Uribe made Santos the Minister of Defense, the writing was on the wall for the FARC.

I suggest reading El canciller de la montana for further information.

Colombians will make the right choice...no cabe la menor duda.

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 22:43:

"election results: Hugo CHAVEZ Frias reelected president; percent of vote - Hugo CHAVEZ Frias 62.9%, Manuel ROSALES 36.9%
Alvaro URIBE Velez 62%, Carlos GAVIRIA Diaz 22%, Horacio SERPA Uribe 12%, other 4%

What is the difference ?"

The difference is that in Venezuela more people vote than in Colombia (75% against 43%).
Yes Chavez is better elected than Uribe.

How can you speak of democracy when more than 50% do not vote ?

No mas Tasco66 !

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pobrecito says on May 29, 2009, 23:00:

" Colombia's displaced 'rises 25%'

Some 380,000 Colombians were forced from their homes last year by the continuing armed conflict, a local human rights group has said.

The Centre for Human Rights and the Displaced, Codhes, says this is a 25% rise on 2008 and brings the total displaced since 1985 to 4.6 million.

Government officials say the number registered as displaced has risen.

But they say the Codhes total includes figures from previous years and those falsely claiming compensation.

In its annual report, Codhes says 2008 saw the rate of displacement rising to levels last seen in 2002, the worst year on record when 410,000 people were forced to flee.

According to its study, 380,863 people had to leave their homes or places of work as a result of the armed conflict between guerrillas, paramilitary groups and the security forces.

Codhes says that between 1985 and 2008, 4.6 million Colombians have been uprooted.

"The great majority live in severe conditions of poverty," the Codhes report said, while their own land and property had fallen into the hands of others in a "de facto expropriation".

'Two Colombias'

According to government figures, 2.9 million people were displaced between 1997 and 2008.

The government department dedicated to helping such people, Accion Social, said the number seeking to be registered as displaced and therefore qualifying for aid had risen, but often these were for events dating back to the 1980s, 1970s and even 1961.

Accion Social said around a third of the people included in the Codhes figure had in fact been displaced in 2007.

Fraudsters, officials said, had also mounted schemes to register thousands of people as displaced thereby "robbing those really displaced by violence in Colombia of the chance to get help".

Whatever the actual figures, it is clear that two Colombias are developing under President Alvaro Uribe, says the BBC's Jeremy McDermott in Medellin.

Towns and cities, where the majority of Colombians live, have become safer under his administration, with murders and kidnappings down.

But in rural areas, where most of the displacement takes place, the situation is as bad, or perhaps worse, than ever, our correspondent says.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/8014085.stm

Published: 2009/04/23 10:08:25 GMT"

Yes , as usually you are right, Kat1 and billy(uri)b : "To me Uribe has been the best president Colombia has so far."

No mas Tasco66 !

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goin_south says on May 29, 2009, 23:53:

I'm all for Uribe being president of THE ENTIRE WESTERN WORLD.

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 30, 2009, 00:28:

Look pobrecito, that?s your democratic solution:
http://www.semana.com/noticias-seguridad/paro-armado-farc-antesala-ele...

Las Farc admitieron en un comunicado público el pasado 17 de febrero que ejecutaron a ocho de los indígenas a los que acusó de colaborar con el Ejército.
http://www.elespectador.com/articulo134164-indigena-awa-muere-al-caer-...

Look who is diplacing a lot of indigenous people.

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 30, 2009, 01:16:

pobrecito
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1203/p06s01-woam.html

When will have to pay Chavez for the killing of inocent people because he is not taking care of the security i Venezuela. Lets make a small count. 26 Mio habitants 10 years of chavez climbing the rate from "The country has experienced a parallel spike: from 20 to 48". So Chavez killed 2080 only more than 10 years ago when he got to power.Nice results and this for 10 years progresive calculated that are more than 10.000 people.

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Shortiao says on May 30, 2009, 03:59:

damn....i actually agree with Simon.

fancy an early night?

"cuando una persona toma otro pasaporte....pierde su identidad!" - Shortiao

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cstew47 says on May 30, 2009, 09:27:

As a gringo who has been working in Colombia since 1992, I have seen a huge improvement under Uribe's administration. People can now drive to major cities instead of flying. Fincas are safe to return to and the business climate has improved tremendously. I now live in Colombia and, although I see some of the dangers cited above, I hope that Uribe elects to go for one more term. I don't see any Chavez comparison here. More accurately, I see a Chavez comparison with the election of Obama. Enough people are sucked in by the "chicken in every pot" campaign that they are blinded to the lack of experience and dangerous philosophies of the candidate. Incidently, regarding the comment about FDR serving four terms, it is important to remember that we changed our constitution after that to prevent another president from serving more than two. Kind of reverse of colombia.

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billyb says on May 31, 2009, 18:45:

"and the almost total decimation of the electoral left in the preceding decade all contributed to Uribe's election victory."

This is a curious statement. How was the electoral left decimated? Did a few million leftist get killed in Colombia in the last 6 years and you were the only one that heard about it? Or perhaps, you are not clear on the meaning of "electorate" or "decimate'?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Dolfi says on Jun 2, 2009, 01:00:

"Why Uribe Should Not Seek Third Term?"

Because he is the best colombian president the USA ever had.

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goin_south says on Jun 3, 2009, 21:25:

..................WHY URIBE SHOULD BE GRANTED A THIRD TERM:

.................................BECAUSE.... HE IS DA MAN!

So much philosophizing and criticizin..... all intellectuals, with their stinkin reasons.

..........HELL YEAH! URIBE SHOULD BE GIVEN/ELECTED TO A THIRD TERM!

........................He's got Colombia rocking and rolling in every way.

Some of you, I believe, just can't stand such good progress.... got to fuck up a good thing with all your intellectualizin BS.

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