Why there is no Chavez, Correa, Kirchner, or Lula in Colombia.

billyb says on Feb 10, 2008, 19:42:

"there is no Chavez, Correa, Kirchner, or Lula in Colombia."

And that's a bad thing? They are all corrupt, read their local papers.

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robi666 says on Feb 10, 2008, 19:47:

The link to El Baile Rojo was posted before on PBH, Vlad. It should be looked by everyone on this site.

But i don't think it has much to do with why there is no Chavez, Correa, Kirchner, or Lula in Colombia, although I always asked myself the same question.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Peter (Moderator) says on Feb 11, 2008, 06:20:

Here's the video:

Poor but snappy

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 13, 2008, 15:40:

Billyb: The argument is that the democratic left in Colombia (corrupt or otherwise) was set back, as a political alternative, by physical extermination during the late 80s, early 90s. That's why the are no Lulas, Bechelets, etc. in Colombia, not at least with a substantial chance to the presidency. Nobody is saying that those leaders are good or bad.

Nonetheless, the new left in Colombia, organized under PDA, obtained the second most votes in the last election, so there may be a chance for them in the near future.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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robi666 says on Feb 13, 2008, 15:46:

"That's why the are no Lulas, Bechelets, etc. in Colombia, not at least with a substantial chance to the presidency"

I don't know SrT... the argument, when I see the share of Uribe, seems weak to me.
I do not see a large popular support toward the left. That support would have been here, with or without the extermination.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 13, 2008, 15:51:

No, robi, that support needs to be organized, and the paracos knew that very well, that's why they targeted UP and left-wing politicians and organizers so rabidly. Otherwise, why were they such threat to them?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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robi666 says on Feb 13, 2008, 15:55:

Yes, I knew you were meaning it. And things were surely delayed. But still...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 13, 2008, 16:23:

I grant you though, Colombian has been, at least politically and historically, a bit more conservative than other countries. That speaks about the political stability that the country has enjoyed, but also about many of the problems that we have.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2008, 18:13:

"Nonetheless, the new left in Colombia, organized under PDA, obtained the second most votes in the last election, so there may be a chance for them in the near future."

But Uribe still got three times as much, so i don't think there's too much of a chance in the near future. It is good to have a viable alternative though.

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podborski says on Feb 13, 2008, 18:17:

I put it down to colombians being smarter : )

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billyb says on Feb 13, 2008, 18:19:

BTW, Vlad, how come you didn't include Ortega in your title? Isn't he one of the most "illustrious" leftist leaders in LA?

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SiV says on Feb 14, 2008, 11:30:

I think the under-representation of the left has got a lot to do with the guerilla, supposedly leftist groups whose actions have only served to undermine the left. I believe Colombia's conservativism is largely a reaction to this. Although committing political genocide against thousands of oppositors, as like what happened with the UP and earlier with the Bogotazo, and La Violencia after Gaitan's assasination has helped. . .

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 15, 2008, 15:23:

"I believe Colombia's conservativism is largely a reaction to this."

Maybe in part. But the strong influence of a conservative Catholic Church in Colombian politics, among many other signs of conservatism, predates the appearance of the current guerrillas. Back then, the "devil" were radicals and liberals.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 16, 2008, 00:43:

It looks like this is the first time in history social democracy actually has a chance to solidify as a party under the banner of PDA. There are some good people there, honest people with solid ideological backgrounds and I believe a strong social democratic party would be a perfect counterbalance to all that dependency on USA and would do Colombia good.

The reasons that there has not been a viable left in Colombia are probably the sum of all the ones you guys have already mentioned plus the eternal caudillismo when every leader with some support raises his own tent.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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billyb says on Feb 16, 2008, 01:01:

As strange as it might sound, I also want a strong (honest) opposition party to keep the governament honest and protect individual rights, but i really believe that Uribe has been the best thing that has happened to Colombia in the last couple of decades. And if used as a stepping point to an equitable and long lasting peace agreement, so be it. But it will not have happened if Uribe had not hammered the FARC until they (and i'm not sure the FARC have realized it yet) they realized that they have no hope in hell of taking power by force. Regardless of what their water carriers would have you believe, the FARC are spent as a social, political and military force.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 16, 2008, 01:13:

Billy, it's not the FARC that the Colombian left-wingers place their hopes on as a counterbalance, but the Polo. The FARC is going to be history, one day because the world has passed by and the time of Marxist revolutions is long gone. The rise of a legitimate, powerful left-wing party in Colombia will only undermine any possible support FARC might still have, by showing people that a change can be obtained within the legitimacy of the democratic process chain and that the guerrillas are indeed, obsolete.

I believe a leftist president and mandate in Colombia would speed the end of the FARCs way beyond the belligerency of the conservative government of Uribe.

I understand totally why a staunch conservative like you would want to have a strong leftist opposition party in Colombia; for the same reasons as I would like to see a strong, honest conservative party in opposition if the roles were changed.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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billyb says on Feb 16, 2008, 01:33:

So Desi, we don't disagree on much, except that we have had leftist (or what pass for them) presidents and they have been ineffectual. Believe me, except when it comes to colombia's security and integrity, where i am as far right as you can get, i am so socially liberal that you wouldn't believe. If we didn't have this internal (FARC, as I think the ELN does have a social conscience) and looming external (the little monkey next door, as harmless as he may turn out to be, you cannot leave that to chance) I would be all for spending as much as the budget allowed to better the situation of the most needy. The rich can always take care of themselves.

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tomtom33 says on Feb 16, 2008, 04:26:

Any resemblance between the FARC and any kind of ideology other than money is long past. Thus, no leftist movement can weaken the FARC.

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aztec says on Feb 16, 2008, 05:19:

"I think the ELN does have a social conscience" billyb

My ass! They (ELN) attempted to kidnap my wife's niece's child and almost killed them both! They both are in the United States on TPS.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 16, 2008, 08:53:

"we have had leftist (or what pass for them) presidents and they have been ineffectual"

Billy: Would you mind elaborating on this one?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Feb 16, 2008, 17:42:

Aztec, poor choice of words on my part. Maybe should have said "agenda" instead of conscience. And I would still like to see them destroyed if the current talks fail. T, let's just say that they are to the left of me and, I am quite sure, to the right of you. But then again that middle ground between us probably encompasses 90% of Colombia :)

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