Why not raise the minimum salary to try and stem corruption?

gabolicious says on Jan 10, 2008, 06:47:

because corruption is not about raising salaries is more a cultural issue... rather than economical....

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 06:55:

Police in Colombia are paid fairly well. They get over a million pesos a month. Plus they get some kind of housing deal.

Chelesupercono says on Jan 10, 2008, 06:59:

You cannot erase corruption from cultures where there are a complete lack of values, ethics, honor and shame......and it all starts at home.......where everyone wants to f^ch over each other....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:00:

One of my students (Colombian) told me that Uribe did, in fact, increase the salary for police to help lure better and more committed personal. I can't find any verification of this online though.

gabolicious...I can't agree with your statement about corruption being cultural, Are you suggesting that Colombians are culturally predisposed to being dishonest? I think not...I believe most people in any culture or counrty, choose dishonest means of supporting themselves based on economic need and when the have NO OTHER options. It's a matter of survival in most cases, I believe.

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:02:

Morphus, a million peso in a month is in my opinion the problem. If they earned at least double that or even closer to 3 million a month they might be less ready to accept bribes or be corrupt on a small level because they can take better care of their families.

Gabolicious, I don't agree with you. I believe that people who are economically secure are less corrupt-able on this level. I know that there will always be corruption in all levels and in all countries, but I just believe that daily life could be more secure and comfortable in Colombia if the police were paid better.

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:03:

I am with you ellbee2!

Chelesupercono says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:05:

ellbee2: you are either asleep or innocently naive......the most corrupt Colombians are the RICH ones......by far!!!! gabolicious is 100% correct........economic need? The goal is to F^ck over everyone, and the family is first on the list....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

gabolicious says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:08:

Wait a minute I did NOT say that colombians are dishonest people... What I am saying is that in order to lower the levels of corruption more than a good salary is needed, for example education... and yes I agree with you in your statement about corruption is a dishonest way to achieve somethings....

"I believe that people who are economically secure are less corrupt-able" that is bullshit un corrupto es corrupto con o sin dinero...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

gabolicious says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:10:

not all poor people are dishonest = corrupt there are poor people VERY VERY honest more than the ones who have lots of money...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:25:

Well Chele, I did just wake up....but I assure you I am not naive. I love a good debate and welcome all points of view, it's how we learn and grow as human beings, but please try and reserve your personal assesment of me to yourself.

I know there is corruption at all levels and greed sometimes is the motivator, especially when it involves the rich, but it's common knowledge that when unemployment rates rise so do crime rates. Thats not culture driving that statistic...it's need.

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:32:

By the way, welcome beisbollover! Good first post. I'm a huge baseball fan myself. Unfortunately, I am a Royals fan!! Love the Cubbies too....so you know my mantra is "Wait 'til next year!"

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:34:

well i am phillies fan so i am right there with ya....by the way...brandon duckworth is a friend of mine...he pitches for the royals...

El Polo says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:37:

Guys, Detroit is the team everyone will be watching this coming season.

tejasmarcos says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:40:

I think raising the minimum wage creates a "trickle up" affect that causes businesses to increase their prices to compensate the margin loss, hence increased inflation. Right now inflation is Colombia's enemy as it is in alot of emerging markets around the world. I'm not sure how you effectively deal with inflation as an economic policy.

Any economics majors out there? GIB?

Micro loans and new small businesses are a good way to create sustainable growth, increased purchase power and GDP.

god is in your head

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:48:

"trickle up"...that almost sounds dirty haha

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 07:57:

I agree that Detroit is the team to beat in the AL.....

hmm..inflation vs. less corruption....if put to a vote what would the Colombian people choose?

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 08:54:

Maybe they should raise the wage of NY cops too so they stop taking handouts from the mafia. Corruption exists everywhere. I love the generalizations about Colombians on here too. If they're that shitty of a people, why go there? Oh I forgot, the women are pretty.

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 08:55:

Also why would the powers that be want to change the system now? The rich hold all the power so why would they want to spread it out? It's a bad situation but I doubt it will change. Happens all over the world.

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:17:

3 million pesos? That will just make them more greedy. University grads are'nt even making that in Colombia. A million pesos is enough for a policeman. I heard they get free or almost free housing. I know people in Colombia that are only paying 100,000 pesos a month in mortgage.

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:19:

100,000 in mortgage or rent?

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:21:

Colombian or not, greed exists in every human to an extent. If the temptation is there, many will take it. If I was in that position I would take handouts probably unless I was super rich. How do you explain the Enron types? They had money to burn yet continued to steal. I don't think they were from Bogota either.

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:37:

I said mortgage

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:38:

What about maids? Some only make 300,000 COP a month. Should they start stealing from their bosses?

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:42:

You can raise it as much as you want. It won't stop stealing. How about celebrities that get caught for tax evasion?

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:48:

yea...all that high end corruption wont ever change anywhere....but what about the daily life corruption, i think that if everyone earned more that might become better.

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:48:

The vast majority of the graft and corruption in Colombia is not being carried out by those on minimum wage. People like former Cundimarca governor Pablo Ardila and the rest of Colombia's oligarchs are the true root of the problem.

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:53:

Tax evasion is good. The government does'nt get in trouble when they misspend our money.

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:54:

OK, and this is directed at morphus and Enrique. There are extremes in all situations, What we are trying to discuss here is Colombia and what can be done to help a bad problem. Corruption. No one here is saying that ALL Colombians are bad. Quite the opposite, we all, for our own reasons want Colombia to succeed and be the best it can be. To only sit back and spout of about the super rich or try to compare to USA, like you do is ludicrus.How about you offer up a solution or a real opinion?

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:55:

think about all the money going to waste on welfare. I know a guy that has a new apartment and does'nt pay a dime. He gets drunk every night and watches DVD movies. All paid for by the government.

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:56:

I gave my real opinion. You don't think economists have tried to come up with a solution? I told you I don't think a realistic one exists. If you didn't know, Colombia is a country of EXTREME discrepancies between the rich and poor.

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 09:59:

Well, they better think of something or else Colombians are going to have to stop screwing. There is'nt enough wealth to go around in Colombia as it is.

Man Tequila says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:13:

I do blame the policemen when they do not do their job, the normal stuff. I understand that law is a fluctuating thing in Colombia. Lots of people resent stopping for a red traffic light.

If you paid the policemen more, it might make them honest. Or it might make them want more. Money and honesty are different balls of wax. Are you sure it would reduce the problem? I think societies do take cues from their leaders and elites and when they are corrupt it opens the floodgates. Raising salaries may have merit but might not address the real problem.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:14:

There is plenty of wealth in Colombia. It is simply concentrated in the hands of criminals on all sides of the spectrum. Between the narcos, oligarcas , politicians and other assorted scum, there is more than enough to go around.

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:19:

yep Colombianogringo, and I dont see that distribution of wealth as changing ever.

kalder says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:20:

Incidentally, last summer I asked one of my brothers-in-law what small town cops earned in Colombia. He said they start at about 700,000 and the Chief makes twice that.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

kalder says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:21:

About corruption in Colombia, I think MT's hit the mark with: "I think societies do take cues from their leaders and elites and when they are corrupt it opens the floodgates."

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

El Polo says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:27:

raising police officers salaries would in some cases lower corruption, but whats it worth if the police chief is taking bribes?

just bribe the chief and case closed.

morphus says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:36:

Then it will cost more to pay them off :)

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:39:

I was more scared of the cops than anything else when I was in Bogota. I loved how they'd show up every night at the clubs to walk around and collect their payments.

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:40:

lets say a cop in bogota now will earn 3 million a month....if he doesnt change his lifestyle dramatically think of how nice he lives now...private elementary schools, food, savings, a vacation once a year to Melgar etc....now if he earns that and thieves come to him and say " he let me hit that neighborhood and ill give you 100,000" he might think twice. He might not want to lose his job over that 100,000.

Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:40:

The problem isn't the minimum wage (thought that's low) but, rather, the problem is the vast disparity between what a person can earn legally and what they can earn by being corrupt. Cops aren't corrupt so they can feed their kids, they're being corrupt to be able to buy a fancy house or plan a retirement in Antigua.

Enrique187 says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:48:

the thieves would just up the price they offer the cop until they hit an equilibrium. narcos can afford it.

El Polo says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:52:

beat me to it enrique.

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 10:54:

i dont agree....i think the cops would not want to lose thier new life style...and in turn enforce the law.

well...i should say...i hope not i think....

gabolicious says on Jan 10, 2008, 11:24:

Listen I agree: cops should have higher income.. yes it is fair, but not only they
need a higher income, they also need proper training, a good life insurance and some
other benefits, better uniforms, better "guns", etc ...

How to reduce corruption? well, I think we should begin with some "values" I guess.

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

beisbollover says on Jan 10, 2008, 11:26:

good points...money alone is not enough...thanks!

gabolicious says on Jan 10, 2008, 11:29:

el dinero no lo es todo, aunque ayuda a resolver problemas pero NO es LA solucion, amigo...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 10, 2008, 11:42:

You want to stop corruption start prosecuting it and given the people convicted harsh sentences.

Impunity has a way of going hand in hand with corruption.

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 10, 2008, 11:44:

"You want to stop corruption start prosecuting it and given the people convicted harsh sentences. "

Amen. Many of the problems in Colombia are a result of the complete joke of a justice system in the country. Criminals know that they can literally get away with murder. On top of stiffer sentences, Colombia needs the death penalty.

gabolicious says on Jan 10, 2008, 11:50:

I agree CG but in order to have a "death penalty" let us make sure that we have a better justice system...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 10, 2008, 12:02:

Good point, Gabo. Colombia already has plenty of extrajudicial executions. I say start with actually investigating, prosecuting and convicting crimes, and keeping people in prison through their real sentences.

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 14:05:

I agree with gabo and Hollywood, we need harsher and more aggresive justice in the courts. I also think the general population needs to adopt the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" attitude. People need to throw the bullsh*t flag more in thier everyday life. No more saying "well, that just Colombia". Screw this no confrontation attitude that is the norm.

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

Man Tequila says on Jan 10, 2008, 14:27:

Your expectations that capital punishment would deter people in a country where extrajudicial executions are cheap are touching, but very naive. Colombia needs justice, but not the death penalty.

Before Colombia has harsh justice it needs the basic kind. People, even with influence and connections, being found guilty and receiving an appropriate punishment when they egregiously violate the law. Imposing the death penalty would do very little.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

ellbee2 says on Jan 10, 2008, 14:41:

Well said Tequila...I agree.

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

Chelesupercono says on Jan 10, 2008, 17:22:

Ditto all of the above, however, besides a culture of corruption which will take generations to make even a dent in the problem; you have the billions in drug money which can corrupt everyone and if that doesn't work pull out the guns.....there are no easy answers, but the beginning has to start with the end of the FARC and all of the para-military.....unless that happens nothing will nor can change in Colombia...

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......