Why Colombia? No...Really

Colombiche says on Nov 24, 2005, 09:55:

Intrepid After you have visited Colombia, spent time there, mingled with the natives and realized how normal day in day out life can be there you will be able to answer this question yourself.

I am a colombian expat, who will certainly repatriate in the near future. I am missing out on too many things for the sake of security and a few dollars. ;)

Suerte en tu viaje

C.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 24, 2005, 10:04:

Until I became romantically involved with my wife, I had absolutely no interest in Colombia. Now, of course, that has changed. You would have to have a Colombian spouse or significant other to know how much they are "Colombian". In my wife's case, that means the little songs she likes to sing, the music that she likes to dance to, the stories and anecdotes she tells me etc. In our case, we continue to live in Texas and will probably do so for quite some time.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Nov 24, 2005, 10:47:

I don't see the Eiffel tower either I see Toronto's phallic symbol, the CN tower.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Panda says on Nov 24, 2005, 10:49:

i know what you mean dude... i've asked myself the same question several times. in colombia you grow up believing that going to live abroad itself is quite an acomplishment only to find out that there's loads of americans and europeans just loving the "easy-going" lifestyle in Colombia.
must be that not only do colombians that complain about the country realize that it is not so bad back home once they move to wealthier contries but also foreigners that visit Colombia discover all those wonders that locals take for granted.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 24, 2005, 11:02:

The CN tower is an impressive erection.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 24, 2005, 11:02:

The CN tower is an impressive Not nearly as impressive as this damm mouse.....

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel says on Nov 24, 2005, 11:06:

Para mi.. Me encanta colombia para la comida... el vallenato...la gente (especialamente las chicas) y mas que tiene que ver de cosas que no puedo explicar... Es Locolombia. ( maybe kat1)

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pepster says on Nov 24, 2005, 11:27:

Panda It's called the "Grass is always greener..." syndrome.

One should aways appreciate all the good that everyplace where you are has to offer.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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ElPadrino1 says on Nov 24, 2005, 11:41:

Intrepid, I recognize your style(maybe) By any Chance are you transversing the World and writing newspapers articles on your Globetrekking(in knight rider newspapers) Curious because your style and his style are very similiar, If you are him, great articles you have been penning! I know, thru his articles, he was planning on going to south america and he had been in northern and southern Europe in the recent past!

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vladimiro says on Nov 24, 2005, 15:48:

Colombia In my case my employer sent me to Colombia, so I learned spanish and became familiar with the fun, carefree atmosphere of Colombia. I would have been just as happy if not more so had I been sent to India, China, Turkey or some other fascinating country(in fact India and China have better food and richer culture in my opinion:)People have a link with Colombia for whatever reason, but its just another country.

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CuriosJoe says on Nov 24, 2005, 18:24:

1. girls
2. girls
3. $ goes long way, you are wealthy by default
4. learn new language (useful too), new culture
5. less puritan (and not as cold as Montreal;))
6. culture ok age difference (did I say girls again?)
7. travel (not working) can be fun
8. fewer rules (no 21+ drinking, ok to drink on street, etc)

If you have it all in LA or NYC and VERY VERY hot girls. You just need a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for that. I think USA is a perfect place to have a family and raise kids. But that's my opinion.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 24, 2005, 23:20:

For me personally Please note that this applies to Bogota and environs only. And this is in comparison to NYC. YMMV.

-The music.
-The highly educated populace.
-The legal everything (at least anything I wanna do)
-The money going further (although I am one of few people on here that could actually do well on the local economy).
-The better quality food. I am mainly talking about the fact that the food there is healthier for you, I don't wanna get in an argument about whether Bogota has any 4 star restaurants or not.
-The fact that you can actually do something for FREE!
-The better public transportation.
-The fact that people still hang out and have time for each other and do more than work themselves to death.
-The fact that Colombians don't think that there is only one way to skin a cat.
-People are polite and respectful.
-The city is not overrun with rats and cockroaches.
-The bike paths are better, newer, safer, and cleaner.
-The water is better quality.
-Vino caliente.
-The amazing solidarity and openness of the arts community.
-The fact that artists are much higher up on the social ladder.
-It is a LOT easier to get a real good education for your children here.
-The weather and the fact that you can decide if you want it to be hot or cool today by driving a couple of hours up or down the mountains.
-A higher % of buildings have doormen (although a LOWER % have elevators)
-You can rent an place for less than 80% of your income, even a big apartment in a nice area. EVEN if you are only making 700-800k a month.
-Hamburgers and hotdogs with quail eggs on them at 4am.
-Tolerance synthesized with lack of political correctness.
-You can make new friends more quickly than you'd ever thought possible (unless you have been somewhere else in Latinamerica already!)
-If you go downstairs to get a newspaper and leave your 12 year old kid at home for 3 minutes you havent committed any felonies.

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TheIntrepidTraveller says on Nov 24, 2005, 23:22:

Hmmm.... So it appears I wasn´t too off base with my presumption that a preponderance of beautiful exotic women is sufficient to draw a man from an otherwise easy life to a vastly more complicated one. Fair enough...but I have to believe that not every gringo from Northern Europe or the US is coming to Colombia simply to parlay the blessing of their birth - citizenship - into sex. I mean, there are safer places where this can be done, and where the women are quite beautiful as well (Argentina, where I am, for one...). There has to be more to this place than sex, drugs, and rumba, but judging from many of these posts, you wouldn´t know it. Or perhaps I´m totally wrong--the game is such that the rewards are well with the risks, and that´s all that matters...

Curious Joe - you scare me a bit my friend...perhaps you´d be more comfortable with Gary Glitter in a Vietnamese schoolhouse? I agree leaving certain undesireable conventions at home is nice, but your repeated affirmation of lax drinking laws and underage relationships leaves me a bit uneasy.

El Padrino - I´m no famous writer, but I am travelling around the world. I´m glad you appreciate what I have to say.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 24, 2005, 23:26:

The NEGATIVES about Bogota -You have to take a taxi after 11pm.
-Taxis come in 10 minutes instead of 3 minuted when called.
-Rush hour is REALLY FREAKIN CROWDED.
-The air is terrible.
-Banks are so bad they make the air seem nice.
-DEFINITELY more crime (although this doesn't really affect me personally as much as it might others)
-They don't make clothes for big people, at least not off the rack.
-Good sneakers and some electronic items are more expensive.
-Hard to find a good drummer.
-Hard to get a good rare steak.
-Lack of diversity in the cuisine scene.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 24, 2005, 23:39:

Culote By all means, come to NYC or Paris, but if you have been watching the news it doesn't seem that Paris is such a shit hot place to be an immigrant.

If you do come to NYC be prepared for the following:
-Tiny apartments in conditions that would be considered unrentable in Bogota OR Medellin that cost you anywhere from half to 90% or more of your total earnings.
-Rats that can (and do) eat cats. Cockroaches in your super crappy super expensive apartments. The roaches will be resistant to almost any poison out there, except for the ones that can also kill YOU!
-$10 a beer in a dive bar.
-Garbage everywhere (yes this even includes good neighborhoods)
-Food that will make you violently ill for 2-3 months (but you will have no choice to get up and work everyday or you will be living in the street instead of your crappy apt)
-Being treated as a third-class citizen, unless you are very Caucasian-looking and can speak English with NO TRACE of an accent.

If you think 9 TVs and an Xbox are a fair trade, be my guest. Once you somehow make it past immigration I can get you set up to work illegally as a painter or for a cleaning service for $60-100 for a 12 hour shift. No benefits, no holidays, no vacation, no sick days. I know more people here who work 7 days a week than people who don't, especially among the hisparlantes.

I know scores and scores of Paisas up here and I seriously don't know a single one who is not counting the days until they can go back. It's like Pepster said, the grass is always greener.

To tell you the truth, if you are an ironworker or can cut and set tile or carpet or install hardwood floors, do swing-stage, etc. BY ALL MEANS come and make some money while the construction game here is hot. You will make $300-400 a day and work almost every day. But everything else I said still applies.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 24, 2005, 23:43:

at PIP I would describe life in Colombia compared to life in Canada or the US not as 'more complicated.' I would say that there are much more complications to living up here. If you're broke, there's nothing complicated about that, you're effing broke and that's that!! I think that life up here is more expensive in terms of TIME even than it is in money.

Down there you will have time to do anything you want to do. You just may not be able to do it because you are making a currency which doesn't go very far beyond the simple basic things.

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caslug says on Nov 25, 2005, 06:46:

Traveller.. if you´re in Argentina now.. you should checkout COL, and see the difference. My friends that been to BA swear by it. And THAT INCLUDES COL friends! From what i was told BA is about the same cost as COL, but there´s lot of things to do, if you´re expecting the same nightlife in COL as BA you´ll be dissapointed, COL nightlife is active friday and saturday night, some on thursday, the rest of the week is pretty dead. Most COL go out on SAT, because half the workforce work on Saturday.

As for the girls, yes they´re pretty but no more or less than prety brazilian, venezuelan, or argentinian.

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platano says on Nov 25, 2005, 07:22:

Just had a scary thought... What if some leftist scumbag remade the movie Braveheart set in Colombia. At the top of his lungs Tiro Fijo would scream, "Marquetalia!"

plátano

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caslug says on Nov 25, 2005, 07:36:

curious joe was a little direct about the reasons.. but you gotta admit, that´s the top if not number one reason gringos arrived in COL. Let´s be honest, if the gals are FUGGLY and UNFRIENDLY, how many gringos would stay? PLUS COL is ALOT closer than Argentina or Brazil!

It´s funny, i was at Spig´s thanksgiving dinner last night, and not only was turkey on the menu, but so was sausage! It was a sausage fest! 15 guys and 3 girls! I felt right at home in the states again! LOL! so why did they choose COL?

Go to LP forum, Peru, Brazil, and Argentina gets LOTS more talk about regular tourist stuff than COL. COL is not exactly a tourist mecca like those countries. Why dont we see more gringas(especially older gringas) travelling to COL to see the sights? I see whole gringo families doing tours in Peru, i´ve yet to see that in COL, unless they´re visiting some family members that are living in COL. You definitely don´t see groups of japanese tourist in COL, you see them in Peru. When you see old gringo couples and japanese tour group in a country, you KNOW the country made it as a well known tourist destination! LOL!

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Colombiche says on Nov 25, 2005, 07:40:

My handle Is being tossed around the forum like there is no tomorrow, sometimes complimented, sometimes slandered, sometimes just plain insulted!!!!

It's all good.... Thanxs for all the free publicity ;)

Keep going and you are going to make me into a Colombian cultural icon... MOVE over Juan Valdez!!!! ja ja ja.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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platano says on Nov 25, 2005, 07:47:

Colombiche, I have an off-topic question... (you being here) Because I respect you so much I wonder what you think about using the word "chibchombia". I have heard Colombian youth use it, but it's usually as an insult to Colombia. The sub-text is Colombia is a country of "indios" and there is not a high regard for native cultures implied.

plátano

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CuriosJoe says on Nov 25, 2005, 08:57:

IntrepidTraveller regarding your statement "...perhaps you´d be more comfortable with Gary Glitter in a Vietnamese schoolhouse? ... repeated affirmation of lax drinking laws and underage relationships leaves me a bit uneasy"

All I meant to say was 30 year olds date 20 year olds girls, and age difference is no problem in Colombia. If you like to date women older than you what the hell are you doing in BA then - move back to NYC for that. There was never a mention of anything underage you sick dog.

Somebody else was comparing NY to Bogota?? I am sorry but how could anyone compare NYC to ANY city in a third world country???

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CuriosJoe says on Nov 25, 2005, 09:08:

Rubiazo you shouldn't badmouth NYC (Manhattan that is). If you went to one of top schools, make enough money then there really isn't a city better than NYC in all of US. If not why not live somewhere else? It's just not cut for the poor no matter how hard some try to accomodate them here LOL.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 25, 2005, 09:19:

Yeah, you got that right, Caslug. When you see the hordes of Japanese tourists wandering around taking pictures of everything, then you will know that Colombia has made it as a tourist destination. But who would want that? I like it the way it is, a country just for Colombians and everyone else stay the hell out.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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DanielPaisa says on Nov 25, 2005, 09:25:

that's really scary... i can't imagine one of those buses filled with japanese fellas, taking pictures with tiny state of the art digital cameras arround medellin, cartagena or any pueblito. Even worse, a CHIVA filled with these guys!!! man, let's hope it doesn't happen soon. I like to have few tourist that really love colombia.

Say no to japanese chivas.

Daniel, el Paisa

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caslug says on Nov 25, 2005, 09:30:

Look at it this way.. would you rather have hordes or old gringos/japanese tour group snapping fotos or hordes of gringos snapping up chicas for a night on the town? Right now the MAJORITY of gringos are here for the women. But what worse than tour group is ALL MALE ITALIAN GROUP descending on a city to chase women! ja, ja.. those guys got a reputation of taking no prisoner and leaving no stone unturn in their quest for easy women! ja,ja..

My friends tell of plane load of italian arriving in cuba and they march off the plane like the old roman legions! At least americans arrive in ones or twos not hundreds!

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Rubiazo says on Nov 25, 2005, 09:59:

CJ and Culote Everything I posted was from personal experience. I have been living here for over 8 years now.

The OP asked what is the attraction of somebody moving from here to Colombia, so I listed some things off of the top of my head. Nothing negative I said about NYC is anything any New Yorker in their right mind would deny, those things are just common knowledge to anybody who lives here.

Most people who come to NYC come looking for money the same way people go to South America or the DR looking for pussy. That's just a fact. But demographics have changed a lot in recent years. Less people are leaving, and more people who come here are not from other countries, but from within the USA, due to lower crime and MUCH more strict immigration policies in the past 10 years. I don't see this as a positive change at all, although many may disagree with me. I didn't come here for the money, I came for the music.

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pepster says on Nov 25, 2005, 10:03:

Rubiazo Ignore Culote...it's Ratbag.



The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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ElPadrino1 says on Nov 25, 2005, 10:19:

NYC has it All-like Ali, Its The Greatest!! Universities,a Diverse Population, Entertainment, Public Transportation, Cool Buildings(still-IMO, the Empire State Bldg.&K.Kong still rules) Shopping,Not to insult other capitals but NYC has it going on! The Best!

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 25, 2005, 12:43:

Rubiazo.. I loved your list... ( without getting into the argument about Ny or Bogota anymore)

1. Passion
2. Magic
3. Time
4. Spontaneity
5. Healthier food
6. Nice weather
7. More Time
8. Time and time
9. There ARE things like a free lunch.
10. Space
11. MORE Time and space for yourself, for your family, for your friends, for your mental health, for your vocation, for taking care of your home, for your pets, for your hobbies, for dancing, for partying,for love, for everything that is the essence of being human

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Rubiazo says on Nov 25, 2005, 13:06:

Believe me I'm doing my best to put some life back into the city, but as far as the arts we have really fallen off especially in the time since I moved here. I'm giving it maybe another year of 110% effort and then just giving up and looking for opportunities elsewhere.

I think I'm going to plug some of my NYC shows on the other section. We are working on some really great stuff, I just don't know if the new NYC is going to appreciate it or not! :P

Lucia, that's the other thing I forgot about, the fact that 2 hour lunches are common. Here, not only are you NEVER gonna get 2 hours for lunch, even if you did, the restaurant wouldn't let you take up a table for that long!!! Of course apparently if you live in Europe nice leisurely lunches arent such a problem either.

Pepster, if that is Ratbag, he's acting like a human being now so for the time being I will pretend he is one :)))

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BxUnika says on Nov 25, 2005, 15:11:

Re: NYC "If you do come to NYC be prepared for the following:
-Tiny apartments in conditions that would be considered unrentable in Bogota OR Medellin that cost you anywhere from half to 90% or more of your total earnings."

You pay 50% of your income to live in the Bronx? Unless you are living below poverty line, this might only be true in parts of Manhattan.

"-$10 a beer in a dive bar."

In Manhattan only.

"-Food that will make you violently ill for 2-3 months (but you will have no choice to get up and work everyday or you will be living in the street instead of your crappy apt)"

When did this happen???

"-Being treated as a third-class citizen, unless you are very Caucasian-looking and can speak English with NO TRACE of an accent."

That's pure bullshit if I ever heard it.

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BxUnika says on Nov 25, 2005, 15:15:

"Chibchombia" "Colombiche, I have an off-topic question... (you being here)
Because I respect you so much I wonder what you think about using the word "chibchombia". I have heard Colombian youth use it, but it's usually as an insult to Colombia. The sub-text is Colombia is a country of "indios" and there is not a high regard for native cultures implied"

I disagree. "Indio" is negative among ignorant people. I actually nicknamed by boyfriend Chibchar because he is Colombian, his Indian roots and his name is Carlos (Carlos--Charlie---Char). I don't think calling it Chibchombia is disrespectful at all except to people who suffer from complejos. A lot of Colombians people will admit to having Indian heritage and the vast majority do, so I can't see how it's derogatory...actually, it seems just the opposite. It's a term of endearment.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 25, 2005, 15:37:

Unika Most rents in the Bronx are over $1000 now. You can find a studio or small one bedroom in some areas of the South Bronx for $800 or $900 still. Average income in the Bronx is $21k per FAMILY. You do the math.

As for the food, you wouldn't notice because you were born here. People who immigrate to the USA invariably get real sick off of the food. Ask anybody who has come here from Latin America.

And if you think somebody gets the same treatment here when they have a Hispanic accent of any sort, you are absolutely clueless!

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Rubiazo says on Nov 25, 2005, 15:41:

CJ What exactly is the burned-out car count in Paris right now?

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cam0940 says on Nov 25, 2005, 15:51:

Rubiazo, I know what you're thinking. Just let it go, man. It's not worth it.

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cam0940 says on Nov 25, 2005, 16:05:

He's thinking that he wants to checkmate you with fact and experience. However, before he expends that energy, I want him to realize that it's not going to change anything.

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pepster says on Nov 25, 2005, 16:10:

Indio Term It's like negra, gordo...a term of endearment or an insult.

Depends on who it's coming from. Unfortunately, when I heard it as a kid...it was derragatory (mostly against people from La Guajira).

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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cam0940 says on Nov 25, 2005, 16:37:

Okie dokie. Well let's wrap this up, shall we? You will not bait me into a battle of intellects with an unarmed man.

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CuriosJoe says on Nov 25, 2005, 17:35:

hey fellas can you leave NYC alone with your nonsense and immigrants not liking the food here and all? You don't like it here go move to Ohio. NY is not for the poor period. It's one of the most expensive cities in the world and people who work here (and I don't mean in retail sales) make the most $$ in salaries and bonus. They are also the most educated. What do you expect 50 cents beer and 100 a moonth rent? This is not Colombia. If it were to people like you the whole place would be one project allright. I tell you this, give it another 10 years Bronx will be predominantly white. NY food makes him sick, fkn loosers. Take your broke ass to Ohio that's where you belong. Dumb ass.

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CuriosJoe says on Nov 25, 2005, 17:43:

Bronx rent over 1K? Move out then! Or no wait, let's rent-control the place! Fnk loosers.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 26, 2005, 00:20:

Ohio??? DAMN did you ever miss the point of what I posted. You think the food in Ohio is gonna be any better? We have a NATIONAL problem here. If you want good food you need to get OUT of Canada or the States. The food here is full of nasty-ass chemicals. Moving to Ohio would be even a step down, because you'd have an even harder time of getting anything fresh. Why is it so hard for people to believe that American food makes people sick or to even grasp the fucking concept???


And you don't have to tell me about the Bronx gentrifying. I saw a 2 family house on Franklin Av for god's sake going for $599k!!!!

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cobbook6104 says on Nov 26, 2005, 04:46:

Well as always ,the original question turns into a pissing match amongst the so called regulars.
Anyway to our South African friend. The answer is in the heart. Passion is strong in Colombia, the family 1st and foremost. The climate is paradise.
Therefore, the answer to your question of why? Passion for the family and not the almighty buck !!!!!!

Hoping everyone stays afraid of Colombia so we can live in paradise.

florida bob

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CuriosJoe says on Nov 26, 2005, 09:26:

No I didn't call you any names culote-jag, chill.

It may be true that food sucks in US - I just don't like people badmouth NY because rent is too high or whatever. Speaking of food: you CAN find good food in NY. In fact there are some of the world's best restaurants in NY. Sorry if I offended anyone in my earlier posts, I didn't mean to.

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pedro says on Nov 26, 2005, 11:27:

"Seriously...what drives an otherwise privileged (by virtue of his birth in a country where economic opportunity abounds) white guy from Northern Europe, the US, or Canada to a country with the highest kidnapping rate in the world?"

Well, probably the same thing that drives you to travel to different countries in the world.

I mean it would be easier to just stay home, right? But it's worth the hardships of travel for the good experiences.

I first checked out Colombia just on faith. The word of mouth was so good. People who had not been would say the usual preconceptions --danger, narco etc. But those who had visited were saying it's the highlight of South America.

I had been several times to Brazil and had a free flight available, so I went to Colombia.

Once you make the trip for yourself you'll see it's a special place.

Yes, part of it is the girls and the lower cost of living. But there's more to it than that.

que nota!

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morphus says on Nov 26, 2005, 12:47:

"I tell you this, give it another 10 years Bronx will be predominantly white."

thats not happening. all the Whites i know in the Bronx are planning to move to Westchester.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 26, 2005, 15:20:

Morphus you gotta be kidding me Come down here sometime. We'll take a little bikeride with Elmo maybe hahahahahaha. Mott Haven is now mostly yuppie artist wanna-be's. The area looks like a cross between Brooklyn Heights and Tribeca now, or at least parts of it. I just wish I had a few hundred G's 5 years ago, I saw this coming!!!

When I say the food here makes immigrants sick, that does NOT translate to 'if you go to Nobu or Babbo and spend $300 on dinner for two, you will find the experience horrible.' What I mean is that people come here and have to shop in low end supermarkets and low-end supermarkets in NYC carry substandard, borderline inedible food.

You can find lots of decent food in NYC if you don't mind paying absolutely outrageous prices for it. BUT....
In Bogota it is the exact opposite, the more upscale the place is, the crappier the food is. The best, freshest, most delicious stuff in the city comes into Paloquemao. (Please note I am talking about SUPERMARKETS NOT RESTAURANTS).

Eating in restaurants is just not good for your health in NYC either (or anywhere else in the States/Canada). Even the best restaurants are under pressure to keep their costs down, and this has an obvious effect on their buying. NOWHERE in Colombia will have this problem.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 26, 2005, 15:26:

Materialismo and Facilismo My gf says that I am too 'facilista', or in other words I always think everything is easy and want to look for the simplest solution to every problem. I think that is very much a cultural trait these days in North America. We really put convenience comfort and security at the top of the ladder.

Personally I don't think it's natural or healthy to be as obsessed with these things as we are. North Americans in general are way too attached to their cars and to their packaged processed foods etc. I am starting to realize that to me Chianti is a better drink than Coca Cola, and that I should act and live accordingly.

I also think that 'Fascilismo' is a big problem in the arts community these days. Everybody wants to do things on their spare time on their computers while downloading porno in the background. Small wonder the quality is going down the tubes!

To me this is probably the #1 reason to leave North America. And I bet I'm not the only one.

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morphus says on Nov 26, 2005, 16:06:

i heard about a few yuppies buying cheap brownstones in the South Bronx. thats nothing to get excited about. what about all the run down tenement buildings? are the Whites going to move back into them?

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morphus says on Nov 26, 2005, 16:09:

the bronx in the winter..aagg the Bronx in the winter..aagggghhh

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Rubiazo says on Nov 26, 2005, 16:56:

Hardly any tenements in BX Never really were. Remember the Bronx used to be upper middle class until 1960 or so. We have some of the best housing stock in the city here. Most of the tenements are on the Lower East side and on the West side of Manhattan. What little poor housing stock there was was blasted to the ground long ago to build project houses. As for projects, as I'm sure you know, many of them are going co-op and the yuppies are moving in there too!

The big attraction of the Mott Haven area is that it is one of the last areas in the city where you can buy a loft (semi) reasonably.

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morphus says on Nov 26, 2005, 17:41:

more than half of the Bronx is tenements. those small buildings that usually have six floors and about thirty apartments like the one in the pic above.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 26, 2005, 20:59:

None of those buildings in the photograh are tenements. Those are all very well-built buildings. Most of them were very well-appointed doorman buildings 40 or 50 years ago.

Tenements are at most 3-4 stories high. They were built as cheaply and as quickly as possible. If you are in your friend's Manhattan apt and you see a bathtub in the kitchen, you are most likely in a tenement building. If you can hear the neighbors making love as if they were right in the room with you, likewise. And a tenement building has NEVER been built with an elevator!

Damn, you know what, that's like the next block over from my house!!!!

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morphus says on Nov 26, 2005, 22:16:

they call the tenements here. it does'nt matter. white people don't want to live in those buildings anymore.

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BxUnika says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:09:

The Bronx "Mott Haven is now mostly yuppie artist wanna-be's. The area looks like a cross between Brooklyn Heights and Tribeca now, or at least parts of it."

Mott Haven is mostly yuppie artists and looks like Brooklyn Heights...hmmm. What color is the sky in your world? Last I checked this place was the poorest congressional district in the US and was filled with some nasty housing projects and crack addicts. My friend lives over on 137th Street in the MItchell Houses. There are a few buildings in a very small area south of the Bruckner Expressway that house artists, but nobody would ever know that unless they walked south of the highway. Why do you constantly make erroneous statements like that?

"When I say the food here makes immigrants sick, that does NOT translate to 'if you go to Nobu or Babbo and spend $300 on dinner for two, you will find the experience horrible.'"

If I immigrate to India or China I'll get sick from the food. I know very few Latin Americans who get sick off of food in NYC and even if they did, that can happen anywhere.

"What I mean is that people come here and have to shop in low end supermarkets and low-end supermarkets in NYC carry substandard, borderline inedible food."

What does that have to do with immigrants? That would mean all of the poorer people living in ghettoes would be sick from the food and that just ain't true. I once got sick about 4 years ago from a spoild flan from a C-Town in the Bronx, but I got diarrhea for an hour or so and that was the end of it.

"You can find lots of decent food in NYC if you don't mind paying absolutely outrageous prices for it."

You really need to get out more.

"Eating in restaurants is just not good for your health in NYC either (or anywhere else in the States/Canada). Even the best restaurants are under pressure to keep their costs down, and this has an obvious effect on their buying. NOWHERE in Colombia will have this problem."

Been there two or three times and now he can speak for all of Colombia...

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BxUnika says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:13:

Hey, Morphus... What street was that picture taken on? I know where that is but it's on the tip of my tongue. It looks like the Fordham area where I lived on one of those streets east of the Concourse.

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BxUnika says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:20:

Plus... Actually Morphus is correct. That shorter, older building in the picture is a tenement. I have lived in the NYC area all my life including the Bronx and Washington Heighst, so I think I'd know what a tenement looks like. It has nothing to do with th quality of it. People just think they are bad because of all of the movies they watch and books they reach about the Lower Eastside and the immigration. Yeah, they are usually smaller and aren't as "nice" as the larger, newer elevator buildings but if they were built almost a century ago (some 100 years old) and are still standing, that kind of tells you that they weren't built out of pieces of shit.

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morphus says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:31:

Bxunika, i'm not sure what part of the Bronx that pic was taken. it can be anywhere. the Bronx is huge and a lot of the buildings look the same. this picture was taken on Bainbridge ave. do you know it?

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:32:

Unika Try anywhere around 138th and 3rd av. for starters. YOU are the one who hasnt been there in a dog's age. There are still some pretty ugly projects around there too, but you could say that about a lot of neighborhoods.

Try reading my 'Arrived in Bogota' thread. I documented everything I ate on there, how much it cost, and where it came from. I also took photographs and measured mysefl. I lost 6" from my stomach in 6 weeks there, despite the fact that I ride my bicycle every day here and wasn't doing that down there.

And if you went to India or China, you would get sick off of the WATER, not the food, IF you were living somewhere where the water wasn't chlorinated. Same deal with Colombia. The Bogota water is treated and just fine. Nobody moving there is going to get sick because of all the crap in the food either.

But people who come here complain to me about it all the time, and I had a similar experience myself. I'm sorry if you find it so fucking hard to believe, but ITS THE GODDAMN TRUTH.

Tell you what, I'll meet your ass on Roosevelt and 74th any time you say. We will stop the first 10 people who immigrated from anywhere in Latin America outside of Central America we can find. I will give you $100 if more than one of them doesn't have something negative to say about the food here. If I win, you can give me $20. That's how confident I am. Seriously the only time I have heard anybody from Latin America defend the disgusting food we eat here was a RESTAURANT OWNER!!!

Tell me again, how many times have YOU been anywhere in Latin America? You seem so fucking positive that i'm full of shit. If you ever do get your ovaries un-knotted and finally go to Colombia instead of just engaging in third-rate rhetoric on PBH, do everybody a favor. Go buy some milk, any milk in any store, pour a glass, and taste REAL milk for the first time. THEN you'll understand.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:33:

BTW that is 205th Street east of Grand Concourse.

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BxUnika says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:34:

at CuriousJoe "hey fellas can you leave NYC alone with your nonsense and immigrants not liking the food here and all? You don't like it here go move to Ohio."

I agree.

"I tell you this, give it another 10 years Bronx will be predominantly white."

that's highly doubtful. I don't think 1 million+ poorer people cvan be displaced that quickly. It's solidly ghetto and I mean that you can walk several miles and not see one middle-class area.

"It may be true that food sucks in US - I just don't like people badmouth NY because rent is too high or whatever."

Pay Rubiazo no mind. He came her from Canada and bitches about NYC and the US so much yet he is pissed because he can't get a greencard. Why would he want to stay here if it's such a shithole? There is much to be said about a White guy who immigrates from Canada to live in one of the largest concentrations of poverty in the country. He talks about these places as if he was born and raised here and half of what he says is exagerrated or just plain BS. I was running the streets of the Bronx and Brooklyn before he even knew what a tenement house was. If he thinks NYC is the epitome of trash, he should have come here 10 years before he did and then maybe somethings he say would be half correct. He came here after Giuliani was in office for years. If he thinks this is bad now, he wouldn't have survived a day here 15-20 years ago.

"Speaking of food: you CAN find good food in NY. In fact there are some of the world's best restaurants in NY. Sorry if I offended anyone in my earlier posts, I didn't mean to."

Somoneone who is hanging out with hookers and crack addicts is probably not someone who is going to 4 and 5-star restaurants in Manhattan.

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BxUnika says on Nov 27, 2005, 20:41:

A Palabras Necias, Oidos Sordos, Rubiazo Ok, fine. Let's all let Rubiazo "win" here. Arguing with a stranger over the internet is like the special olympics, Rube: even if you win, you're still a retard. I really don't care to make bets with you, grow the fuck up. More shit comes out of your mouth than a cesspool. I lived in the Bronx and spend enough time there than some Canuck who moved here 7 years ago and thinks he's a NYC expert and now an expert on Colombia. I grew up in NY. If NY is so horrible, go the fuck back to Canada. I have never heard somebody complain so much about a place yet not leave already. Ave Maria, pues...

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 21:00:

WTF If you want to respond negatively to my posts FINE, but for christ's sake keep it on topic. And offer something of substance, if I'm full of shit PROVE IT. All you ever do is try to shout me down. I'm getting pretty sick of it!

BTW to me Canada is even more horrible than the US. And if it werent for the fact that I have two kids still living in NY, I probably would be long gone by now, MOST probably to Colombia! If not Colombia I may move to London Tokyo or another major city in Latin America, but right now Bogota is at the top of my list, HENCE my presence here. But you wouldn't know about that, would you? Maybe you are more interested in spewing off than in actually reading people's posts properly.

Why should we give a damn about where you grow up? Try offering a little information that might be useful once in a while. You contribute nothing and are a complete waste of space here. You bring nothing but negativity. For example, where is it in the Bronx that they sell produce that isn't rotting on the shelves? I would love to know that!! Or where is it in Colombia that they have nasty food in the supermarkets?

And just to go off on a little tangent, little girl, I was in Detroit during the early 90s. NYC has never been nor ever will be even 1% as bad as that! And one of my best friends here in NYC used to be a lieutenant with the Black Spades during the 70s. Or do you even know who they were? For that matter there are PLENTY of places in Canada that are more violent than NYC ever was or will be. They just don't get the media coverage we do here :)

But regardless, my complaint about NYC is NOT that it's trashy and violent. My chief complaint about NYC is that it is boring as fuck here and it is no longer a place to be a creative person. I base that comment largely on my own personal experiences CONTRASTED with my experiences working as a musician in Bogota and from what I have seen of other places. I could deal with the noise, the dirt, the rats, and the food if I had to.

My post was in response to somebody posting that they would gladly trade places. I think a lot of people in Colombia have an overly positive image of NYC in their minds, much as Canadians and people from other parts of the USA tend to have an overly negative one. I also think the experience will be a lot better for someone who DOES come here if they are prepared for some of these things beforehand.

Finally, if this thread is so horrible for you, go the fuck back to Westchester or wherever it is you're logged into, I have never heard somebody complain so much about a post YET NOT LEAVE ALREADY. CONCHA DE LA MALDITA MADRE!!!
:)

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 21:03:

BTW once again That building is SO NOT a tenement. Unlike you, I have actually been inside that building. Friends of mine live there. That's a nice solid building (although it is a walk-up).

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cam0940 says on Nov 27, 2005, 21:08:

BTW Morphus, just so you know, you're talking about how Whites don't want to live in tenements. That is, Whites of means. Just a reminder, in raw numbers there are more broke Whites in this country than anyone else. There are more of you than anyone else.

Furthermore, Blacks of means don't want to live in tenements either. Nor do Latinos of means. Nor do Asians of means. Nor do Arabs of means, Indians of means, or anyone for that matter.

The point is, it's an economic issue, not a racial one. I know you WASPs only see the world from inside your own bubble, and you poison every culture on the planet with your ethnocentrism, but for once since this isn't a site about YOU, let's just tell it like it is.

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morphus says on Nov 27, 2005, 21:18:

they call them tenements here. i already told you that.

ha ha, friends of yours live there? i been by that building hundreds of times. that was the first building on Bainbridge ave to change color. all the Irish evacuated in 1990-93. its mostly Latino now.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 21:44:

I meant the other building the 4 story one in the first pic. Like I said, that is literally 2 minutes walk around the corner from my place. The other building on Bainbridge is just across the Parkway.

Ironically many 'hot' areas of NYC, like the Lower East Side, the former Hell's Kitchen (now Clinton), and Williamsburg have some of the most poorly built housing in the city. It's really weird how many people are spending the big bucks not even thinking that they are moving into a building that has paper thin walls, bad plumbing, and a major mold problem, not to mention roaches and probably rats.

That is one thing that you do not see as much in Bogota or in other parts of the world out of the USA and Canada is the deterioration and gentrification process that we so take for granted here. Although ther e are some areas in and near downtown that have seen better days, in general the rich areas are rich areas and the poor areas are poor areas and they dont flip around too much. That is why the Bronx is so famous for being badass world over, it's not really how bad it got, it's how far it fell! Most neighborhoods in the Bronx used to be places people could only dream of living.

I don't think we are ever going to see, for example, Usaquen or Rosales or Chapinero Alto totally get abandoned and turn into estrato 1 dumps any time soon, for example. Nor are Country Sur and Restrepo going to all of a sudden become hot and home values will quadruple in 5 years, and the original residents all get pushed out by yuppies.

La Soledad used to be Estrato 6 30 or 40 years ago apparently and now it is mostly Estrato 4. But those are some of the nicest houses you are ever going to see anywhere. My friend's house has a great room big enough to play rugby in (they actually do practise Capoeira in it), Brazilian cherry floors, bannisters, mouldings, 3 fireplaces, just unbelievable detail throughout the place.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:04:

at Cam Cam, finally some words of common sense on this thread. I ABSOLUTELY agree with you.

I think many people imply that sort of thing without even thinking, it is so ingrained. Which is really too bad.

A lot of stuff said on this forum is really common sense obvious stuff that gets flamed all to hell because people have real issues dealing with the truth, exactly due to that ethnocentricity you mentioned. As a matter of fact, I think you have just brought up another good reason for moving out of North America. I have been told that Colombians may perhaps at times be a little truculent and classist, but they NO WAY are ethnocentristic!

I have news for everybody living in the USA, THE WHOLE REST OF THE WORLD THINKS YOUR CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS ARE CRAP! As a matter of fact, most intelligent people living here would agree with them. I'm not stating this as gospel truth, I'm not trying to start a huge war. I'm just stating what I have observed. You can think they are as right or as wrong as you want, but you can't deny it no matter how hard you try and wiggle and squirm. You may love the culture here, but if you think that people all over the world are looking at America all starry-eyed and admiring it, you are coming from a position of extreme ignorance!!

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:17:

Two more things Let me point out that there are no cockroaches in Bogota, so that is a BIG plus for me. This old 2 family house I live in here had mice, rats AND roaches when we moved in 2 years ago due to the previous owners not knowing their asses from a hole in the ground. Now we have no rats, we still see the odd roach but they are finally slowly dying out (I hope), and we still have a mouse problem. Who woulda thought the mice would have been the last to go?? :P But BOY OH BOY would it sure be nice to not have to worry about cockroaches anymore! I have had 6 years in Toronto and 8 years here dealing with them (they don't exist in Winnipeg either), although the Toronto roaches have much less resistance to poisons than they do here!!!

Also wtf is up with people saying 'if you don't like it here, leave'??? I seriously wonder if some of you went to school on the short bus, TAKE A LOOK AT THE TITLE OF THE THREAD. This whole damn thread is about people who have moved to Latin America or are considering it which HOLY SHIT SHERLOCK HOLMES that is exactly what I am thinking of doing!!! Get a grip, people!!

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morphus says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:19:

but you are here from Canada...lol.

Cam0940, it all comes down to Whites not wanting to live with darker races. the same type of old buildings can be found in White neigborhoods. once a few Blacks or Latinos move in, the Whites move out. after they move out, they are not welcome back. the racism goes back and forth.

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morphus says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:25:

your whole view about living in America is based on living in the South Bronx. i thinks thats wrong. i live a few miles north up in Westchester and i don't have any roach or mice problems in my house.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:37:

Most of the world thinks that Canada is better than the US But I have spent enough time travelling over BOTH countries to know different. To me Canada has a good public image that is as undeserved as Colombia's rotten one, and as far as lack of good cultural institutions, it is in the exact same boat as the USA.

Here are places in the world that I think I might like to live if I moved out of here.

London, Tokyo, Lima, Bogota, Sao Paulo, Rio, Buenos Aires, Bombay, Shanghai, Hong Kong.

(NO CANADA NO OHIO!!!! Fuck those two places, no offense if you live there and like it, that's fine, but they are not for someone like me.)

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:39:

at the OP I think gringoinbogota's comment is the best comment on this thread. Security up here is not worth the price we pay for it IMO in terms of so many things. I don't consider safety and security to be a top priority of human existence, and frankly I look down on people who do.

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morphus says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:48:

"London, Tokyo, Lima, Bogota, Sao Paulo, Rio, Buenos Aires, Bombay, Shanghai, Hong Kong."

you like dirty, crowed hellholes...lol. now we know how you ended up in the South Bronx.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 22:56:

From my first post "For me personally....

Please note that this applies to Bogota and environs only. And this is in comparison to NYC. YMMV."

Obviously NYC is not like the rest of the US (although it is getting more and more that way). I actually do not live in the South Bronx by any definition of it. Technically the South Bronx is south of 161st street, although some people use the 95 or Fordham Rd as the dividing line. Either way, I'm quite a ways further up. I do have lots of gigs in the South Bronx though.

I'm glad to hear you dont have a rodent or insect problem, I wouldn't wish that on anybody except for maybe BxUnika! I'm sure that for you Yonkers is workable. For me, I prefer the city because I absolutely completely DESPISE cars and I can't stand driving. Anywhere I can't step out on the street at any hour and hail a cab or walk a few minutes to decent public transport is completely out for me. I'd rather be on the Transmilenio but for now the subway will do :P

If someone were immigrating to another part of the USA from Colombia I wouldn't warn them to watch out for rats on the subway, obviously. If they were going somewhere I had never been I would probably warn them about the food, especially the chicken and the dairy, and I'd refer them to a local for more local advice, or I'd help them look for it. I would also surely warn them about just how bad public transport is in most parts of the country. Rolos and perhaps other Colombians are used to being able to go out on the street, flag a taxi or bus down and be on their way in a minute or two, and they assume that it's the same in America.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 27, 2005, 23:00:

Morphus I like places that cater more to a nocturnal lifestyle and are easy to get around without a car. And I like places that have lots of good local art, theater and music. Frankly, most of Colombia would probably be unsuitable for me too. I dunno if I would even like Medellin or Cali, although I do hope to visit those places at least once. But they are a little too small-town for my taste. Out of my list, Bogota is actually the smallest city at just shy of 7 million lost souls :)

BTW Mr. OP IntrepidTraveller, where are you now?

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morphus says on Nov 27, 2005, 23:43:

i think once you go to Medellin you will forget all about Bogota. Medellin is the second largest city in Colombia and is easier to get around without a car. theres also plenty of art if thats your thing. have you ever heard of Botero? he's from Medellin. and where else can you stumble upon a catwalk? i was walking around Envigado one night and saw a catwalk with hot chicas modelling bathing suits. nice!

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kirsty says on Nov 28, 2005, 00:48:

me and my boyfriend work on cruise ships !! he is colombian and me english !! we have visited so many countries all around the world in fact i m sick of it !!!!
some of you writing say it s only the one thats get out of colombia that say they like the country so much !! maybe this is true !!!! he says he loves his country !! we are moving there in the next couple of years to live !! i love his country too !!
i m quite proud that he can say something like that , you will not find many english that say that most people just want to get out !!!!
and like he said we earn european wages and we take them back to colombia so maybe we are lucky for that who knows !!!!!

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TheIntrepidTraveller says on Nov 28, 2005, 06:59:

Where am I? Right here... But considering the direction of this post has gone from discussing a simple question - why an otherwise secure Gringo would move down to Colombia voluntarily - to belligerent whining over which project in NYC is the most rat-infested and a forum for anti-US bashing, I don´t have too much to add. The feedback at the beginning is insightful, but I feel like this post has morphed into somebody else´s playground, yelling, screaming, and making absurd over-generalizations as they please. Perhaps we could get back on topic (or am I as naive as the Colombian who expects good food in the U.S. to suggest that)...?

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cam0940 says on Nov 28, 2005, 08:14:

at Morphus Sadly, you are largely correct. A lot of American White folks don't like to live around darker races, because of their ethnocentrism. They think they are better than everybody else. So they prefer to live apart, segregated from everyone else, in homogenized, sterile little neighborhoods. That's cool. But that arrogance is also their biggest problem. Because unfortunately for them, the rest of the world can feel and sense that arrogance. That's why the American White man can hardly visit anywhere else without fear of being kidnapped, beheaded, robbed, or murdered. They brought it on themselves. The American White man has killed, lied, cheated, raped, and stole his way into his position, and now isn't safe anywhere except in his own sterile, homogenized neighborhoods. But if you ask him, the world is his footstool. Ironic, isn't it? And then we have to watch people with your world view post pictures running around a country that is only 25% white at best, and the rest is made up of "darker skinned people." If you don't like them, go the fuck back to Mayberry. When something happens to you, then you want to go and report it to the State Department like "Why would these people do this to me? Why don't they like me?" Because your view on culture and heirarchy of the races exists only in your heads, in your own space, and in your own land. That shit will get you killed in 100 different countries. Until you realize that you do not in fact, own the world, you'll continue to be backed into pockets of security right here in American suburbia. Thank God not all are like that, thank God that some are more travelled and have a wider view. But there are still enough to make the world a very dangerous place for you.

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cam0940 says on Nov 28, 2005, 08:29:

at the OP For the reasons I listed above, the reason the traveler you described might move to Colombia is his overall sense of invincibility. His sense that the world is his footstool. And therefore, he'll be OK no matter where he goes. These darker skinned girls from an inferior country will drop their panties and fight one another to get to him. He is the Almighty American White male.

Guys like GIB are the minority, yet the safest. The number one asset GIB has going for him is his humility. Because he doesn't walk around with a red, white, and blue Superman logo on his chest, he's probably safer than the typical guy romping around the streets of Bogota. The freedom issue is one that--without using the same language--Rubiazo has expressed on different threads. So really your question has two answers: The sensible gringo relocates there for freedom and quality of life. The other gringo relocates there for his sense of invincibility and he genuinely feels superior wherever he goes, until he finds himself in a dark room with his hands tied behind his back, blindfolded, suddenly religious, tolerant, and wanting to get along with everyone.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 28, 2005, 08:45:

I love reading how Yankees don't want to live with anybody who is darker than they are. Texas has certainly had a checkered past when it comes to these things but at least in San Antonio, not too many people give a rat's tushie about skin color. Even in a small Hill Country town, my son can have a black girlfriend and it is accepted.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cam0940 says on Nov 28, 2005, 10:56:

Yes UTC, you know that and I know that. The more well rounded a person is and the more exposure they have to other people, the less it matters. The better educated, the more cultured, the less these differences matter. We, unfortunately, have huge swaths of our population that aren't nearly as elevated as they think they are. People that haven't been anywhere. People who have lived their whole lives in a sterile pocket of security. Then you've got their first cousins, the Morphuses, who venture out and carry that feeling of superiority with them. Just read his posts in Elmo's McDonald's thread. He actually believes his own hype. So when you see a "Morphus" on video feed, bound and on his knees begging for mercy before they behead him, you feel a little less sympathy. It's like the kid in school who cheats on the exam, gets a better grade, and then professes himself to be better than everybody else. It's like the wolf who can't understand why the farmer shoots at him every time he tries to enter the hen house. The rest of the world is not the problem, Morphus is. Because of this elevated status, half of the world wants to be like him because on the surface he does seem to have it all. The other half of the world, who still love themselves, their culture, their language and their way of life, wants to kill Morphus, burn his flag, and drag his lifeless body through the street. Not trying to be violent or incite riot, it just is what it is. For example, I'm a Republican voter (because the tax situation is killing me), but we do currently have a Morphus in the White House.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 28, 2005, 11:36:

That reminds me of an incident I played this funeral years back when I was living in Toronto for a Canuck who was an expat living in the Dominican Republic (lots of them there and in Costa Rica.) He was shot to death at the age of 30something, and people were all crowing about how dangerous that country is, why the guy would ever want to live there full-time etc.
Turns out later that the deceased was part of the drug game down there AND was screwing around with some married women. Surprise surprise surprise!! But just goes to show how people love to whitewash and scapegoat and do anything but face reality!

UC, racism is present EVERYWHERE. I'm sure that there are some cro-mags down in your town who are talking about your son and his gf even now. I certainly don't think the yankees or anybody else have a handle on it. My gf claims that skin color doesnt matter at all but I think that Colombians use geography as a blind for racism i.e. "I can't stand people from the Chocó" etc. I just bring this up because I don't think there is anywhere you can go to get away from that kind of thinking.

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TheIntrepidTraveller says on Nov 28, 2005, 11:57:

Allright... I've read enough posts on PBH to understand how anononmyity seems to be all-empowering to otherwise ordinary people, with the result of uncalled for personal attacks...so I don't mind being told to ¨dont post nothing next time,¨ nor do I mind the abhorrent grammar mistakes.

Anyway, CAM - I agree with you to a large extent, which is exactly WHY I posed the question that I did (I wanted to clear up the picture - DO people only visit such a potentially hazardous place because of the potential for sex with beautiful women, or do they arrive because of a genuine interest in being exposed to another culture). As an US citizen myself, I abhor the obnoxious, arrogant loud American who refuses to even attempt the local language, with a sense of self-entitlement as big as his fanny pack. I cringe when I witness such a spectacle, and justly agree with you, it is a sad spectacle, not to mention potentially dangerous, and I think it's a shamne if those are the only US citizens you've ever encountered...But this behavior and mindset is by no means exclusive to (north) Americans - last night I was at an after hours bar in Cordoba, Argentina and saw a group of unattractive middle-aged British men with a predatory look in their eyes, searching for their own personal Argentine plaything. However, from my experience living and travelling around Europe, this is a much greater phenomenon over there than in South America...most of the travellers Ive met here from Europe (where they are predominately from) and the US are more seasoned travellers, and thus, to have survived and enjoyed themselves this far into the game, possess the appropriate attitude - yes, there is normal life past your own borders.

However, I also disagree with your resentful tirade affirming that, ¨They brought it on themselves. The American White man has killed, lied, cheated, raped, and stole his way into his position, and now isn't safe anywhere except in his own sterile, homogenized neighborhoods. But if you ask him, the world is his footstool...,¨ and UTOPIACOWBOYS statement that, ¨I love reading how Yankess dont like living with anyone darker than they are...¨ Yes, it is only ¨Yankees¨ who are the oppressive subjugators of minorities...while some may be, lets not pretend for 2 seconds that this, sadly, is not the case in practically every other country in the world. Not France - where anti-White riots culminated in the passage of ad-hoc emergency laws until February? Or Britain, where there were race riots in Birmingham (the 2nd biggest city) a month ago? Or even Africa, where lighter-skinner Arabs were terrorizing their dark African neighbors (heard of Darfur, anyone?). Not to mention, theres no legacy of white supremacy in Latin America, right? All of the indigenous groups have enjoyed the full benefits of partaking in the political system and had access to jobs, capital, education, and housing to the same degree as the White Spanish descendants, right? Wait...dont we speak Spanish in Latin America? Or do you learn Guarani in high school? To deny any of this is to deny history...or to distort it to suit your own purpose...but I digress.

Getting back onto topic, CAM, I think your rash overgeneralization is about as bad as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all Italian Americans are in the mafia...sure some present-day Americans are exploiters and treat the world as their footstool, just as some Muslims are terrorists. But the white elite in Brazil or Venezuela or South Africa aren't the same, or worse? Apartheid is less than 15 years past, in a country of almost 85 % blacks! In the US the mayor of the 2nd largest city is Hispanic, the Attorney General is Hispanic, and the Secretary of State is a Black Woman - the Secretary of State, I believe, is 5th in the line of Presidential succession, the most important cabinet post. And guess what - there are alot of exploited poor whites as well! GM just announced cuts amounting to 30,000 jobs...alot of these workers are working-class whites.

A different argument that could be made against your angry assertion that ¨they brought it on themselves.¨ OK, so if we're holding all American white males responsible now for the actions of its government, we might as well go ahead and call all Germans Nazis, all Spanish people genocide-perpretators, all Japanese Chinese baby killers, and all Argentines fascists. How long can hold a people responsible for the actions of their forefathers?

Like I said, I abhor, perhaps even hate, the Americans who have the close-minded, self-entitled, elitist attitude that you described before...however, I feel it is just as close-minded - and a sign of ignorance as well - to try to pigeonhole ANY one group of people, be they of a common race, religion, or nationality...and especially if there are 260 million of them to fit into one little generalization.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 28, 2005, 12:29:

I don't think Cam was indicting ALL American white people. After all, I am white too! And I don't think people of other races or nationalities are exempt from this either. America does unfortunately seem to be a particularly fecund spawning pool for ignorance and chauvinism these days though, unfortunatley. Cam was however talking about a TYPE of people, and using a poster as an example. I don't know how you went from there to all white Americans.


Culote, estaría muy feliz cambiar puestos contigo pero hay unos detallitos-
1) Los EEUU no te van a dejar entrar.
2) Yo nunca he estado en Medellín y no se si me gustería o no. He estado solamente en Bogotá, Zipaquirá, y Melgar. Para mi Bogotá no es 'una nevera'-- hasta anduve en pantalonetas allí de noche. De pronto por mí Medellín sería demasiado caliente en el día. Y también he oido que Medellín no es una ciudad muy nocturna. A mi me gusta salir de farra EMPEZANDO a medianoche o a las 1 de la mañana, y regresar al amanecer para dormir, y ENTRE SEMANA tambien (lun-mierc). Si no podría en Medellín , no quería a ese lugar por lo bonito que sea ves.
3) Los EEUU no te van a dejar entrar.

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BxUnika says on Nov 28, 2005, 12:42:

Morphus/Bainbridge Ave. The building looks vaguely familiar, but then again, in the Bedford Park/Fordham area, esp. near the Concourse, a lot of the building look ver much like that. I used to walk on Bainbridge Ave. once in a while, but not that often.

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cam0940 says on Nov 28, 2005, 12:45:

Intrepid Traveller I must say that I enjoy your writing style. And I welcome you to disagree with me. As I was reading your post, I came to the realization that you must have believed I was talking about recent history. This has actually been going on for centuries. And so, the manifestations that you mentioned in Europe and South America are only a result of the superiority complex I mentioned in my posts. South Africa used to be one of the pockets of security I was referring to. The United States, in large part, still is. The supremacy issue in South America (thank you for mentioning it explicitly) is exactly the type of situation I was alluding to. Superman comes in, conquers the natives, teaches them his language, and professes himself "better" for generations to come. Same story, different latitude.

You don't see Indians fighting Latinos. Latinos at war with Black. Black at war with Asian. Asian at war with Arabs. Class warfare is as old as man. Race conflict is not. We had a thread not too long ago that talked about Spain from the 7th century till about the 15th, Moors, Northern Europeans, and the eventual conquest of South America. You should check it out. You're in Argentina now. You don't really think the population was that fair skinned oh, around 1300 AD, do you?

I also made it perfectly clear in my posts on this thread and countless others that I'm talking about a specific type of person: Morphus. Morphus, by his own pen (or keyboard), has become the poster child for the dreaded American. He by no means represents all White Americans, and everyone here knows that I would never insinuate that.

I regret that my comments were interpreted as angry or otherwise offensive. It just is what it is. Rape, murder, cheating, conquest. What other words might we use? I swear I'm not throwing around those words as an affront. But that's pretty much the history that led to the current world order.

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BxUnika says on Nov 28, 2005, 12:50:

South Bronx "your whole view about living in America is based on living in the South Bronx. i thinks thats wrong. i live a few miles north up in Westchester and i don't have any roach or mice problems in my house."

He doesn't even live in the South Bronx, he lives in the North Bronx where shit is just starting to hit the fan. If you look for horrible living conditions, you'll find them. As for no good produce? Um, I guess he's never been around Bedford Park Blvd. or Kingsbridge Rd. or GC or Stop & Stop on Broadway. Funny, I seem to recall having bought very decent fruits and vegetables for great prices at all of these locations. maybe when the crack smoke clears and his hooker/addict friends leave for a while he'll be able to see things as they really are. He sounds like that liberal ashole, Jonathan Kozols. Stop the bitching and fit the problem if you can't stand it. Go protest against C-Town and Associated supermarkets.

Personally, yeah, when I lived in the Bronx I saw what was going on and didn't like some of it but I took it for what it was. If the drug situation gets better in Fordham, I'd love to move back, but unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon. I lived in a worse neighborhood than he did and somehow all of this shit that he talks about wasn't quite as bad as he puts it. It's not NYC, it's lower-income areas. Canada is shit, the Bronx sucks and all of NYC, so why not move out? I'll gladly take Rubito's house.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 28, 2005, 13:08:

I've been to ALL those places And the produce is GARBAGE across the board. Sometimes I end up buying all canned fruit cuz the fruit is horrible.
How about you, have you been to a fruit market anywhere in Colombia? Anywhere in Latin America? If the quality of fruits and veggies at the Pioneer at Bedford Park and Webster is acceptable to you you have much lower standards than I do.
And HELLO, if someone is coming here from Colombia, they are likely not going to land on the Upper East side. If they come to the Bronx they are going to land just about exactly where you were living in the middle of all that.
And for the last time (because you seem to have a problem reading) I AM PLANNING TO RELOCATE AS SOON AS I CAN AND IF I DIDNT HAVE 2 KIDS LIVING HERE ID PROBABLY BE GONE ALREADY. Why don't I stay and protest, I am partially considering that, but frankly I think this whole country is a lost cause and it's only gonna get worse and the problem is not something I can do anything about.
And if you want my house, call my lawyer and make me an offer at or near market value and then we'll talk!
You love to slam me for not having spent enough time in Colombia OR here to know anything, but how about you? Have you been there even ONCE? Have you been ANYWHERE in Latin America? Do you even speak three words of Spanish? If you have nothing relevant to offer the forum, FINE, keep reading and maybe you will learn a thing or two one of these days!! But frankly I think you should shut the fuck up if you don't have anything on topic to contribute! As far as I'm concerned the rest of the major contributers here and I have much more rights to speak our minds here than you, because we are talking from personal experience, quoting facts, expressing views in an informative fashion from which others can benefit, and for the most part STAYING ON TOPIC. You seem to have no idea of the concept. I really don't know why the moderators tolerate you!

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gabo says on Nov 28, 2005, 14:43:

the same ole arguement its very very difficult for people to talk about whats bett