when in Rome

DayTripper says on Sep 23, 2005, 00:09:

Yes. Latinas in the US turn into gringas Yes. A Latina living in the US will become a gringa starting from day 1. After 2-3 years the proces will be complete.
I have now idea what happens to a Gringa who goes to live in Colombia. But I can't imagine she will ever be able to turn into a Latina. My theory is once a gringa always a gringa.

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Miguel says on Sep 23, 2005, 01:18:

My experience A couple of years ago I was dating an equatoriana who was divorced from her colombiano husband. He was relocated by his company from Bogotá to the US, and when I met her, she had been in the US just under two years. We dated just under two years, and at the end of the relationship she was a full-fledged gringa. The opportunity for women in the States versus Latin American was the reason.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 01:40:

I am in my metarphosis stage . I just need blue eyes and blode hair

But not gringa, British jejej ;-)

engage brain before opening mouth

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Miguel says on Sep 23, 2005, 02:21:

kat1 Digame...¿tu tomas té o cafe?

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aztec says on Sep 23, 2005, 04:08:

expectations in her mate than when she was in Colombia? My wife has lived in the States for 15 years. I don't believe her
expectations concerning men have changed. However, she has certainly been changed by the North American life. We like to think she has assimilated what is best from both cultures. She is now neither 100% Colombiana or Gringa. It is unreasonable to expect no change.

Luckily for me she has retained all the qualities I first found attractive.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 08:33:

Agree with Aztec, you change Agree with Aztec
Miguel I have never like Te, so I stick to my Colombian Coffe, black with one sugar please ;-)

engage brain before opening mouth

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 08:50:

gringa in Colombia will undergo the same type of metamorphosis as latinas do in other countries (USA, England etc.). They become something a little less gringas and a little more latinas just as latinas become a little more gringas and a little less latinas. How could it be anything else?

It's entirely possible that gringas take on more latina characteristics after several years in Colombia due to the adaptation to the local culture and lack of any sizable colony of other gringos in Colombia. They won't grow a headfull of black hair or lower their heads smiling at you suggestively at the same time; the changes are more subtle and gradual but yet easily detectable after a while.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Miguel says on Sep 23, 2005, 09:14:

Glad to hear that, kat1 y, ¿que tal, arepa v crumpet?

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 09:23:

both, but arepa de queso o huevo, no simple, it tates like a cardboard, I do like crumpets with butter.

engage brain before opening mouth

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Crazy4Cali says on Sep 23, 2005, 10:16:

I'm not so sure.... ... about Desi's comment. (though, I'm neither a gringa nor a latina so I can only comment on what it looks like from the outside)

I think it's much easier for a colombiana to become "gringa" since being gringa is characterized as a pretty shallow life: money, status, posessions, career, etc. All things with a very quick reinforcement pattern.

To be a latina, rather to adopt the values and sensibilities charactized as latina (at least those not outlined in the "gringa" definition above: carinosa, ternura, hogarena, etc.) are not so quickly rewarded and seem to need developing and nurturing from a very early age.

So for a latina who comes from a family-rich, but posession-poor background, it's easy to imagine the glitter and glitz of gringa-ness being very attractive and seductive. While a gringa, coming from a posession-rich, family-"sort-of" background to turn her value system, up-side-down would seem to be a much more difficult change.

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bkelly says on Sep 23, 2005, 10:22:

YES The United States will poison just about anyone after a while.

--bkelly

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 10:29:

I can only speak of myself when my sisters came to visit me in Colombia they noticed right away the change in me. I had become much more family-oriented and at the same time less materialistic than the sister they had known before. I had become more relaxed, had gained much in self-confidence and had become more open. My personal sphere had reduced and I was standing closer to them. I still have an on-going discussion with them (not arguing) if sisters and brothers should be referred to as "family" (my point of view) or as "relatives" (their point of view). That's just one example of the multiple ways I had changed my way of thinking in Colombia.

I think the age factor is quite important for the assimilation. I was very young when I moved to Colombia, barely out of high school. I had no relatives, family, friends of my own after the brother I had travelled with left and I stayed in Colombia.

My sisters say that I have "changed back" somewhat, but not totally.

Cheers,
Desi
(Yes, Colombia gets under your skin even if you come from the richer part of the world. There's no way of stopping it:)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Miguel says on Sep 23, 2005, 10:55:

Depende de la persona,¿verdad? Crazy4Cali...I agree with your post. As far as Desi is concerned, anyone who is as sharp as the edge of town should have figured out that she absorbed, and as a result, knows the Colombian experience. Like I stated in another thread, I do not always agree with her point of view on certain topics, yet I value her input on PBH.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 12:13:

miguel, that's fine with me. I don't share all your viewpoints either, but that's not really that important. The important thing is, I think to be able to communicate with each other being civil and friendly even if you don't think exactly alike. You are a contributing member of this community with insights and experiences that can be helpful for many others here.

Thinking back to that time when my sisters visited me in Colombia I find it a bit comical. I was telling them to dress more feminine, let their hair grow and use more make-up:) I have a female friend here in Sweden who I first met in Cali when she was married to a caleño; she lived in Cali much shorter time than me and yet she also was assimilated and is not the same person as when she first came to Cali.
Yes, we gringas (at least Scandinavian gringas) seem to assimilate.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2005, 12:44:

I think you do change, specially if you arrive to the country very young, I came to England when I was 21.

engage brain before opening mouth

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 23, 2005, 12:55:

Wow "I think it's much easier for a colombiana to become "gringa" since being gringa is characterized as a pretty shallow life: money, status, posessions, career, etc."

Characterized by whom? I've been living in Colombia nearly 2 years and haven't noticed any lack of emphasis on money, possessions, status (in fact more of that)) or career. I do see less consumerism in general, but a Saturday in Carrefour will demonstrate that it's certainly making inroads.

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Crazy4Cali says on Sep 23, 2005, 14:15:

perhaps... perhaps "stereotyped" is a better word.

I know what you mean. In Unicentro it's hard to tell you're still in Colombia. It could be "anytown" U.S.A. So for as ideal as those distant gringos like to imagine las chicas colombianas to be, that myth can be quickly shattered after 2 minutes in any Centro Commercial.

I understand what Desi is saying about how the "latina conversion" can happen quickly, but I'd add that it only happens when you're receptive to it and, as she concedes, that is probably quite age dependent.

The irony to me is there seems to be much more visual advertising of consumer products in latin america, in general, and Colombia specifically. On the TV, On just about every vertical surface of any size. It would seem to scream consumerism. My guess is the overall lack of disposable income is the biggest limiting factor that prevents the temptation of consumerism from taking over down there. So, perhaps, once that limitation is removed by arriving in gringolandia (the land where we all know the streets are paved in gold), then this latent tendency towards consumerism has the chance to come to life.

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bondjames says on Sep 23, 2005, 16:01:

I watched some court show today where a gringo was suing an American latina for the tummy tuck he paid for with his credit card. She lost and had to pay. But her final comment to him was " We latinas are expensive to keep". I think the younger a woman is when she comes to the U.S. the more likely she will change. Not only in the materialsim of a gringa,but the guys she thought as a catch in her country will begin to look to her like the average Joe. I see lots that want to upgrade on the men they settled for back in Colombia when they get to the U.S. They now have access to richer,younger and better looking men. What seemed like a rare bird back home is now in abundance in the U.S.Especially if she lives around Miami. Watch out!!!

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jmb1 says on Sep 23, 2005, 16:47:

wow My two cents is this: Im the product of a gringa and a Colombiano, born here, grew up in the States, now Im back. And all I have to say is that I think you will find ALL of the qualities everyone is talking about in BOTH cultures. I find the States (well I do live in SF bay area) to be very diverse and Ive found Colombia to be the same way. I think you can find people from every part of the values rainbow in both places and its probably going to become more so as stereotypes start to fade.

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adrimm says on Sep 23, 2005, 17:46:

I'd have to agree w/ Mr. Hollywood C4C Status and material items matter ALOT to Colombians. Material items are highly coveted if they are bigger sacrifices (which on a Colombian income, they can be). Just look at some well-to-do Colombian families, the Country Club memberships, the obsessions with high-end labels, keeping up with the Joneses, etc. Who do you think supports the Swatch store, the Tommy Hilfiger store in Unicentro? Why does calling professionals (who are not physicians, or phDs) "Doctor" and still exist?

Agreeing with C4C The one thing that prevents it from being more obvious is the lower amt of disposable income. I have cousin who would rather skimp on lunches, so she can have her Lancome lotions, and item No one on my aunt's wish list was Nina Ricci perfume.

Lastly I'm going to agree with jmb1
"I think you can find people from every part of the values rainbow in both places "

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 24, 2005, 09:36:

a couple of things about assimilation to a new culture: there may be some factors such as age, sex, original culture, religion, language and such that play large part in the process. Every case is individual, however. I'd say that almost all women and men that come to live in the USA adapt very easily to the life there that is very individualistic and allowing. We've al been saturated by the gringo media in form of tv, film, music etc. for such a long time now; it's not like you moved to an unknown corner of the earth. The large hispanic population and subculture already existing in the US make the transition even easier.

Also, adrimm's observations about the materialism in Colombia are correct too. I see this on every trip to Colombia, my children were quick to comment on that last time in Colombia and my friends who've been in Colombia confirm this. A young Colombiana spends a major portion of her income in looking good and having "right" clothes and accessories. This is true even in the lower socioeconomic classes. Great importance is gven to brand names and popular trade marks which seem to be links to status and social standng within peer groups.

This popular conception that the colombiana (female) somehow posesses above average feminine qualites and virtues sounds to me like part of the marketing effort from the marriage agencies and mail order bride tour arrangers: a marketing gimmick. Certainly there are plenty of lovely, sweet, potential homemakers in Colombia but these kind of girls can be found in many countries of the world. The juxtapositioning of the non-Colombian female and the Colombian female as two opposites in everything is both ignorant and offensive.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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bkelly says on Sep 24, 2005, 09:58:

To jmb1 The SF Bay area is not the real world my friend. It is one of the most materialistic societies on the entire planet. Now, I live a very comfortable life here in Colombia thanks to the crazy Real Estate market there, but the people are extremely centered on the almighty dollar. Obviously you cannot crucify a whole area for a portion of the population, but the Rat Race is very real in the Bay Area.






"Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house."

--bkelly

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fmonroe82 says on Sep 25, 2005, 09:38:

Yes It's not true "once a gringa always a gringa" as mentioned above. I've been with my boyfriend Carlos (de Cali) for 4 years now. My friends told me that they don't see me as "gringa" rather latina. I am more family oriented..can cook just about any Colombian dish, have more confidence..but still can't dance. I think dancing is the only exception. I do speak spanish, but it's my minor in college. I think we, as N. Americans sometimes look for something to cling to..I know my family hates each other and we rarely spend time together. I've been to Colombia and quite frankly, I love the heritage and culture. Wouldn't change a thing about who I've become.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 25, 2005, 10:21:

fmonroe82, that's exactly what I've been talking about too. The foreign women of any nationality go through the same type of assimilation process in Colombia as Colombian women in the States, Canada, Europe or anywhere else in the world. To say "that once a gringa always a gringa" is totally erroneous and even despective towards non-Colombian women here.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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vladimiro says on Sep 25, 2005, 13:49:

Assimilation We have lived in the US so long that my British mother lost her English accent and now speaks with an American accent. On the other hand my Iranian father, who moved to UK at 17 for college, is proud of the fact that he still speaks with a pure English accent and often criticizes my mother for not speaking "proper" English. I think assimilating to other cultures must have something to do with whether you want to assimilate or not.

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adrimm says on Sep 25, 2005, 15:25:

accent =/ culture Although I agree that people can resist changing their accents.

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tomtom33 says on Sep 25, 2005, 17:32:

Wanting to assimilate My maternal grandfather came to the US from Sweden in about 1915 at age 19 or so. He would not allow Swede to be spoken in his house.

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t25 says on Sep 25, 2005, 19:11:

mail order whores, gringo johns.... "This popular conception that the colombiana (female) somehow posesses above average feminine qualites and virtues sounds to me like part of the marketing effort from the marriage agencies and mail order bride tour arrangers: a marketing gimmick. Certainly there are plenty of lovely, sweet, potential homemakers in Colombia but these kind of girls can be found in many countries of the world. The juxtapositioning of the non-Colombian female and the Colombian female as two opposites in everything is both ignorant and offensive."

i tell you man, this mail order bride, "busca novia" crap is getting real old man. i'm beginning to have second thoughts about colombia, alot thread seems degenerate into this crap. thank god for venezuela and chile, none of this i hear of going on there (or as much as it appears to happen in colombia), i might as well forget brazil since it is the whorehouse and pedophile capital of north america and europe, right after thailand and philippines.

the two guys i know married venezuelan women actually lived there (one i think still lives there), and didn't go there to meet women, one was in the petroleum industry, the other is a medical worker. both speak fluent spanish, were young (late 20's), one mexican, the other black, and have never been married before. never heard either of them bitching and moaning about american women either or even suggesting i go there to meet anybody.

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t25 says on Sep 25, 2005, 19:18:

.... "even a one eyed hunchback can find love and romance in colombia"
perfect motto for a mail order whore website!

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t25 says on Sep 25, 2005, 19:24:

In other words like the Gringo living in Colombia who is effected by his environment and becomes spoiled with female attention,does the hot young latina living in the U.S. also gets spoiled with so much male attention . Having higher expectations in her mate than when she was in Colombia? Becoming as picky as her gringa counterpart.


NO, *in other words* will she dump his sorry ass when she realizes her catch wasn't so good to begin with?

LOL

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fmonroe82 says on Sep 26, 2005, 07:30:

Eso es! Thank you! It's not a fair argument to generalize..

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