What's the Possibility of My Novia Receiving a Tourist Visa??

litost says on Nov 16, 2004, 18:01:

I have no idea, all I can say is GO FOR IT... what I do want to mention is that to my BIG surprise, two cousins of mine were granted the tourist Visa recently in Colombia.

Listen to this: they are something like 27 and 17, have no job, no college education, nothing to their name, never been to the US before, and live in a town in the Coffee Region. How about that? I asked another cousin, how it was possible for them to pull that off, and it looks like someone "helped" them with the process, don't know the details, I really thought that wasn't possible anymore.

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ColombianoX says on Nov 16, 2004, 18:11:

Litost,

I'm glad to hear that you poor, broke cousins were granted the tourist visa. Recently those jerks who work at the US Embassy denied my sweet, elderly, poor aunt a tourist visa and that really pissed me off. You know know how many colombians I've met here in the US that I wish were never given that damn visa and I wonder how they let such 'chusma' in here.

ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Gator says on Nov 16, 2004, 18:28:

It Will Come Down to This In this case the entired decision will be made based on the probability of her returning to Colombia.

1. Do not, under any circumstances, let it get out she is coming to the USA to see her boyfriend.
2. You never know but I think the prospects for the visa are dim.
3. However, you never know until you try.

I wish you luck.

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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mad_lion says on Nov 16, 2004, 18:31:

just my .02 I can see that many people from foreing countries (not just Colombia) who receive a Visa to the USA; 90% of them do not come here to spend money or contribute to American economy as an American tourist does when travelling by injecting Colombian economy by spending $$$ when we travel.

Litost, I don't know you or your cousins, but based on what you say, what kind of tourist comes to USA broke? Are they really tourists? C'mon.....

I find it very unfair actually...'cuz I go to Colombia as a tourist, spend lots of money, give local Colombians jobs by hiring taxis, paying maids, paying for guides, eating at restaurants 90%, buying national airplane tickets to travel domestically 80% of the time..etc. Hence I am doing good for Colombia and its people by staying true to my word as a tourist.

I am not attacking by any means, but I do find it unfair that ColombianoX's aunt was denied a visa as well, yet many people come here from other countries and are a burden to society. Of course, I am not saying that this is your case..let me be clear on that!

Ce la vi!

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litost says on Nov 16, 2004, 18:46:

Obviously, my cousins are coming to WORK in the US, I thought that was pretty self-explanatory. I am no one to judge that decision, and I think nobody else is, but I can understand how they would come to such a decision when they have so limited possibilities of making a decent living in their current situation in Colombia.

mad-lion, you are looking at the whole thing way too one-sidedly... do you have any idea how difficult it is for most colombians to leave their country solely because they need money to send to their parents or to build some kind of a future for themselves? Believe me, it is not something most colombians do very excited, it's more like the only opportunity they might get at overcoming poverty, and 90% would jump at the shot of going back or staying in Colombia if they had a decent shot at financial stability there. Besides that, it is totally unfair and naive to suppose that those colombians who overstay there visa and illegaly work in the US are a "burden" on american society... if you knew anything about the reality of immigrants' lives, you would see that they are usually the hardest working, less paid and most exploited part of society. They are cleaning your toilets, washing your dishes, building your houses, working your warehouses, etc. You are very ungrateful to their sweat and efforts to make a better life for their families, and they have every right to do so, no matter what a passport says... don't forget the "society" you mentioned is built on immigrants, and the colombians are no less than the italians, irish, chinese, etc.

Open your eyes man!

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 16, 2004, 19:24:

It's a crap shoot. You pay your $100 and take your chances - the odds favor the house just as in Vegas. I offer two examples:

Example 1. My brother-in-law is a law professor in Bogota. Owns several cars, two condos and a finca. Has received tourist visas to Europe and Australia. DENIED.

Example 2. A young attractive single woman I met on the plane from Miami to Medellin. No job, no property, no relatives in Colombia. APPROVED.

Personally I wouldn't waste my time with the tourist visa - just get the K-1.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Bill1243 says on Nov 16, 2004, 19:42:

to Litost Litost,

Your post said TOURIST VISA, so I don't know how you assumed that we should knew they were coming here to work. And, as a matter of fact, people coming here on a tourist visa CANNOT work while here. I knew there was something wrong about you saying they got a "touist" visa, because they clearly did not qualify.

I would guess they got a J-1 visa, which is very different from a tourist visa.

Other than that, as to your other comments, it is NOT the responsibility of the U.S. to provide jobs for the world's poor. Secondly, it you look at the huge drain in the medical industry in California brought upon by illegal immigrants you wouldn't be so gung ho on this.

Legal immigration yes, illegal immigration, hell no....

And as for your downplaying of the importance and representation of the U.S. passport, thinking that it is no big deal, I take offense to this bigtime. You sound like one of those one world government zealots, and if so, I welcome you to feel free to move elsewhere.

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JWB says on Nov 16, 2004, 20:01:

Her Family Does Own Property Her family does own a home in Cartagena. It is located in a very poor barrio and is not expensive, but they do own the home. How would that be added to a tourist application to prove that she would return if she is not the one who owns it?

Thanks a lot for all your comments. I really appreciate them. Keep'em coming.

JWB

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litost says on Nov 16, 2004, 20:25:

It's a complex subject and I don't have time to really get into it cuz it's pretty late. But I will say this: I know from tons of close and personal experience people who have come from Colombia to the US in search of a better future or simply to support families back home. I realize this is illegal, but you know what, I can't condemn these people because they are doing what is best for themselves and their family... at a VERY large price, which is what many gringos can't comprehend and I always stress on: if there were decent employment opportunities and stability these colombians would gladly return to their country, and many times they do after a few years. Judging from some of the posts here, I can assume you just think "well, TOO BAD, stay to rot in your underdeveloped country"... I think that the MORAL justification is more than present in the vast majority of the people who overstay their visa to work.

I don't deny that the immigration and visa laws in place serve a function, but don't kid yourselves, even the government knows perfectly well that the millions of foreign workers are fundamental to the economic system, their output not only fills jobs that legal americans wouldn't lower themselves to doing, but more importantly helps keep costs lower for bottom line companies and therefore many consumer products and services. I believe that every person, regardless of where they are born, deserves a good chance in life. The laws and governments can put all the hurdles they want, but ultimately human migrations are a natural force impossible to control. Even more so when the US promotes free trade and capital flows all over the world, any economics 101 would teach you that for economic liberalization to actually be a SUM-SUM situation, the labor factor should also be allowed to flow freely.

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Chuck says on Nov 16, 2004, 21:31:

Justice for all... don't make me laugh! Somewhere in the US and Colombian constitution the "Justice for all" is mentioned.

The bigest example that this is a joke is the Visa handling process at a US consulate. My conclusion is that the main feature they look for is "cocksurerty".

If she's ugly....nah!
If her dress is from EXITO... nah!
If she is meeting her boyfriend... nah!
If she can't speak a word in english... nah!
If she carries a ton of paper stating she's rich... nah! (fake)

... and politicians still mention Equality under the law! B.S.!

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Bill1243 says on Nov 17, 2004, 00:55:

note on above posts Amen, Gringo in Bogota. My own ex girlfriend came up here on a tourist visa, and after we split up she proceeded to overstay her visa...

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And to litost, you said "I realize it's illegal".... so why didn't you stop there..... You obviously have little predilection to follow the laws of our land. If we had it your way, and ignored the laws, HALF the world would come here, and don't kid yourself...they would.

And you get on your high horse and claim that morally we owe the world a living and that the downtrodden masses should be able to freely come here....to feed their families....yet I guarantee you that the countries they are coming from would never allow you the same privilege in similar situations.

And brush up on your Econ 101, because by exporting production we are, in effect, providing jobs for the world's masses, at market rates for those particular countries...and this indeed does help to keep our prices down. We don't need to import workers in order to do this, at least for non-service jobs!

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And Tinto, you are right, if a foreigner has skills or money, they are welcome, just as we are in other countries. The one exception to this is the J-1 visa, where non-skilled people can come here for a short time to work and to vacation, doing jobs in labor-short areas.

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Finally, a question.... Someone mentioned above about her having property, which might aid her in getting a tourist visa. But can't she just sell the property and pocket the cash...even having her family do the transaction? And anything she needs to sign she could just do by mail.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 17, 2004, 01:28:

viewpoint says on Nov 17, 2004, 04:10:

FOR THE BETTER ? This is an interesting discussion but I think an important question we have to ask each other is "are we better off as a culture or civilization" now that we have established legal or disputed borders, required citizenship, passports, visas and imposed thousands of other laws and/or requirements on the worlds populations imparing the ability to travel or relocate to another geographical location. It was only (I think) a few (2 or 3) centuries ago that such requirements were imposed and I wonder how all of our ansestors that preceded us in time during this era existed without all these laws, rules and requirements.

What kind of sense does it make to have a law that allows and encourages illegal imigration from Cuba but not other Caribbean or Latin American countries. Even with this law in place very few Cubans (as a percent of total population) have left their home country.

In other words if you were born a citizen of a communistic country (like Cuba) you are encouraged to illegally immigrate to the USA but if you are a citizen of (god forbid) a democratic country like Mexico (who once owned most of the USA southwest until the USA took it from them) you are prohibited from the same treatment.

We are all people existing in common with each other only we live or were born in different locations (or country states) but still only citizens of the world state. Now our lives are consumed with peices of paper and attorneys all trying to make sense out of many rules and laws that are senseless. I guess the world has become a much more complicated place but probably not more dangerous as all of recorded history is filled with wars, crimes and atroscities against humankind.

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kernow62 says on Nov 17, 2004, 04:43:

In my experience I have found the tourist visa very unlikely if you have a boyfriend, girlfiend, other family in the country you plan to visit. My wife was actually born in NYC, but they moved back to Bogota when she was about 1 year old. However she was a US citizen, so with $300 she moved to Florida to begin a new life. After a few years she was doing quite well and sponsored for her family to come to the USA. This was not much of a problem and didn't take too long, only one snag, her sister turned 18 in the meantime. So the US let in her parents but denied her sister. Apparently the parents now would have to sponsor the sister. So she is stuck in Colombia by herself, she was denied any sort of visa to come here, it was only after her father became a US citizen that he could sponsor her and still it took 4 more years. Finally just before she turned 27 she finally re-joined her family.

Happy ending, she is now here in Orlando with us and doing quite well for herself, she has her first new car, and is saving for a house.

I don't think having a professional career helps one iota, my wife was an attorney, her father was an attorney, her sister was a CAD designer, and even mom was a legal secretary. I think it depended on my wife sponsoring them, and even though they owned a home in Bogota, the sister was deemed too much of a risk to be given a tourist visa. It did not matter that she had a home to come to and that there were 4 working adults who could take care of her while she was in the US.

In Orlando we see lots of tourists and believe me the vast majority are foreign, and pump billions into our economy. We also have one of the most ethnically diverse cultures in the US, many of these legal imigrants had nothing when they came to the US, but for one reason or another they were let in, for some reason Colombians seem to have a more difficult time. Many times the US has given political asylum to people from Haiti, Cuba, Southeast Asia because these people could prove they were fearful for their lives, I don't recall any of the many dispaced Colombians being granted asylum in the US.

Now if you want to see how difficult it can be to enter the US, take a guy from Ireland and one from England, both with similar educations, and prospects and see which one is allowed in the US. The lotteries that are used have so many alloted for each country, England is very low on the list. It is all politics, we laypeople were never meant to understand these lofty decisions, let alone question them.

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litost says on Nov 17, 2004, 05:03:

I think pointofview gets my point (hehe)...

Listen, I am non speaking from an institutional or public policy perspective... not even from an economic one as I only have a superficial knowledge in that field. I am speaking from a HUMAN perspective, I am colombian american, have been on both sides of the fence and therefore know what actually drives people do make such a decision and all the implications it will have for them. It's not something I encourage, I actually tell lots of the people wanting to come try their luck in the US to stay in Colombia and enjoy life over there "poorbuthappy", but it is certainly not something I will condemn or look at in horror like you guys. You shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on these people, while you're sitting comfortably in front of your computers drinking your Starbucks Cappucino... meanwhile many people in developping countries are struggling to get food on the table or to fullfill the dream of seeing their children go to college. If many colombian families hadn't made the difficult decision, and moved against all odds to live illegally in the US, many of these things would have never been accomplished for their families. Go ahead and tell them they had NO RIGHT to do so.

Remember, it used to be illegal for blacks to sit next to whites on buses, or for women to vote...

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ColombianoX says on Nov 17, 2004, 08:01:

I also have to agree with the gringo's on this one. The USA has no obligation to allow in everyone who wants to live here. The reason it is so hard for colombians to get visas to come to the US is because of all those colombian jerks who in the past have come here only with the intention to sell drugs, steal, etc, to do anything to survive except earn a decent living. As we say in spanish, 'sólo vienen aquí a embarrarla!'. That is also the reason why it's so hard for colombians to get visa's to go just about anywhere else in the world nowadays. The few bad apples have spoiled it for the bunch and unfortunately it's people like my poor, sweet aunt who end up paying for the behavior of these a-holes by having her visa denied. I just wish Colombia and other struggling nations will one day solve their myriad problems so that people wouldn't want to emigrate elsewhere.

ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Atrevido (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 17, 2004, 08:17:

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 17, 2004, 09:13:

One point I'm not going to get dragged into a big hoo hah about the US visa problem, which is very arduous for Colombians, but I do want to comment about something GringoinBogota said. You said that Colombians (and by implication, other foreigners who stay illegally in the US) "don't pay taxes and use our health system and don't pay". The reality is quite different. There is a huge amount of taxes paid by illegal immigrants though payroll withholding that they never claim back because they can't, plus they pay plenty of other taxes such as sales taxes. There's a debate about whether it's a net gain or loss for the US economy but it's certainly not fair to paint all illegal workers as tax leaches.

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BxUnika says on Nov 17, 2004, 11:39:

What Did They Say Specfically? "in Cambio magazine, worldwide Colombia and the Phillipines are the two worst abusers in imigration fraud. That's why it's hard for Colombians to get visas of any kind."

What kinds of fraud was mentioned, for instance? I'm surprised about the Phillipines being one of the Top 2 countries.

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Bill1243 says on Nov 17, 2004, 12:17:

comments to all Viewpoint,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it isn't that easy for Cubans to come here. Could that be why they aren't leaving in droves? How easy is it to leave when they have to not only risk their lives crossing the ocean, but they have to actually make it to shore ....or be sent back!! That doesn't sound like an easy immigration policy to me!!

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Kernow,

Being a professional does indeed aid in your chances of getting a visa. My friend, who is a Colombian dentist is here now visiting due to this. She needs to attend dental conferences here, and it is a very legitimate reason for granting a visa..... and with her practice back there, with her office, it doubles the chances.

And England is low on the lottery list, because in general, people don't want to move out of England to come here. Also, they can freely travel to most countries, just like we can.

Tourists spending money in Orlando are welcome....but our policies are in place to keep people from coming here at random, with nothing at all, and then putting a huge drain on the resources the rest of us are paying for....such as is happening to the medical industry in California.

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And litost, I knew there was more to the story than you originally let on. It's always easier for a foreign-born person to condemn our laws and practices. Also, you say foreigners are trying to put food on the table....look around you man....millions of Americans are trying to do the same thing. So you think it is right for them to lose their jobs to foreigners who "want a better life"??!!

Trying to compare this to blacks on buses and women getting the vote is like comparing apples to oranges.

Most all of America is foreign born, at least at one time or the other...but to just let unlimited immigration run roughshod over us is CRAZY. Your social motives have little reality in the real world. And as I said before, NO other country allows it either!

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Hollywood,

You said you were going to address both the tax situation AND the medical situation. You only addressed one of them. You are partially right about the taxes....they do indeed get withholdings taken out, albeit at rather low marginal tax rates. And many don't get refunds. And in reality, many are using fake social security numbers to even work in the first place....

As to medical costs, which you didn't address, read up on the humongous drain that is being brought about by illegal immigrants in California.

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Gringo in Bogota,

You are exactly right!!

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kernow62 says on Nov 17, 2004, 13:03:

Bill1243 Being a professional does indeed aid in your chances of getting a visa. My friend, who is a Colombian dentist is here now visiting due to this. She needs to attend dental conferences here, and it is a very legitimate reason for granting a visa..... and with her practice back there, with her office, it doubles the chances.

I can see your point in this instance.

And England is low on the lottery list, because in general, people don't want to move out of England to come here. Also, they can freely travel to most countries, just like we can.

If your argument was valid then why is Ireland high up on the list, the economy in Ireland is better than in England, and the people aren't leaving in droves, in fact my Americans are moving to Ireland.

Tourists spending money in Orlando are welcome....but our policies are in place to keep people from coming here at random, with nothing at all, and then putting a huge drain on the resources the rest of us are paying for....such as is happening to the medical industry in California.

I understand the policies and their purpose. You better believe the tourists are welcome, Orlando would wither and die without them. I do disagree with the misconception that illegals are the reason many social services in the US are in a real mess, I happen to know my share of illegals working in Orlando, they pay into the tax system but never claim their income tax refund, so they are actually paying more into the system than I am. Of course some will work for a small wage cash under the table basis, this is what hurts the system, and the employers are to blame not the illegal worker. It benefits the employers much more than if they had hired a legal worker, no insurance, to workmen's comp. etc...

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 17, 2004, 13:11:

About the medical system In answer to Bill's question about the medical system: My answer was that it's unfair to blame immigrants for a net drag on the tax system when so many pay tax witholding that is never claimed. As far as the medical system, you must be talking about the problem of poor people using the public emergency room as a primary form of treatment because it's not the the US has some great public health system that they're defrauding. I think the drain on the medical system is unfortunate and don't know what the answer is. I do know, however, that California's ag-based economy would collapse without illegal immigrants.

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litost says on Nov 17, 2004, 19:47:

That's why I always try to avoid entering these kinds of discussions... people tend to twist words and re-arrange things just to make a point, or simply to make the other person look like an idiot.

I have never said that the US or any country should open its borders wide open and let anyone in. I realize this is not practical or even possible in today's world. All I was saying is that I know of many cases of colombians who have come to work illegaly in the US, and that I understand why they do it and think that morally I am in no position to judge that decision as long as they become productive and respecting members of society. And BTW, I am pretty disappointed with ColombianoX's comments, I always thought he stood up for colombians but his words on this thread do nothing but suggest that the negative stereotypes of colombian immigrants are true... they all come to "sell drugs, steal, etc, to do anything to survive except earn a decent living". How sad. It seems like for him the only colombians who should have the right to travel outside the country are those belonging to the top 5% who can afford to come study to the US or show a big bank account to spend here. So, according to this line of thought the rich in Colombia not only get richer over there, but they also have a chance of travelling to the US and making some arrangement (work visa, marriage, assylum) in order to be able to stay... GOD FORBID these poor colombians dare try to take a piece of the American Pie too.

For the record, I was born in the US because my parents came to work illegaly in New Jersey. I've been kinda back and forth between the US and Colombia since... plus a year in Europe. When I speak of people I think of them as actual human beings not as members of a certain country, citizens of the world if you will, we all deserve to be happy and struggle for what we want in life.

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Bill1243 says on Nov 17, 2004, 20:23:

notes Kernow,

Ok, you got me there....I have no idea why Ireland is high on the list.... But I don't pay too much attention to the lottery, since at most it only brings in 50,000 people a year...from ALL countries.

And yes, you see many illegals working in Orlando. Some have fake social security numbers and some are working under the table. BOTH don't deserve government services, whether they pay tax or not.....they are ILLEGAL. Period.

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Hollywood, you are right, many illegals never claim refunds, but then again, they are working on fake social security cards, and certainly don't deserve refunds.

But you make a good point....Calif. needs ag workers. It's a very tough issue.

As to medical, yes, I was talking about the drain on emergency rooms, which causes ever higher medical costs, which causes our insurance rates to go up. Again, a very tough issue.

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Litost,

You always go back to the moral ground, and also from your Colombian viewpoint. Like so many Colombians, you skirt the law. I see it all the time in Colombia.

And I say again, except that you don't seem to get it....ALL other countries will not let "deadbeats" in. This includes Colombia. I hate to use that word, and I should have said the poor masses, but the same is true. So what right does a poor Colombian have to illegally enter our country, just to get a piece of the American Pie? Answer this Litost. Somehow you think that just because we have what Colombia doesn't have that we should offer it up to EVERYONE. Tell that to the private hospital who has to take in non-paying illegal alien patients. And you continually forget that we here in America have millions of our own poor to take care of.

Litost, you are not an idiot...you are a very caring person. But when you decided to come here, you knew that we are a country based on capitalism. The survival of the fittest is how this country was founded. It is very hard, even for us who were born here. WHY should we lay open our borders just because we've worked our asses off to make a great country? I am sorry that most of the world grows up in countries with lousy governments but that's the way it is.
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As an aside, it continally amazes me how we live in a world where half the world hates us, yet they would be the first ones to move here if they could!!! A whole different subject!!

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ColombianoX says on Nov 17, 2004, 20:48:

"people tend to twist words and re-arrange things just to make a point, or simply to make the other person look like an idiot."

"I am pretty disappointed with ColombianoX's comments, I always thought he stood up for colombians but his words on this thread do nothing but suggest that the negative stereotypes of colombian immigrants are true... they all come to "sell drugs, steal, etc, to do anything to survive except earn a decent living". How sad. It seems like for him the only colombians who should have the right to travel outside the country are those belonging to the top 5% who can afford to come study to the US ......"

----------------------------------------------------------------

Look who's talking about twisting words! Nowhere did I say that only rich colombians should travel here or that "they all come to sell drugs". Most colombians who come to the US are decent, hard-working people, but sadly we can't deny the fact that there are those with not so noble intentions. My qualm is with these colombians who only come here to break the law and besmirch the good name of Colombia. And yes, I will always stand up for my colombians, but not the bad ones!

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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caslug says on Nov 18, 2004, 00:09:

uhh... lets look in the mirror shall we.. the subject of illegal immigration is very complex i think. You cant just blame the illegals, the blame is spread pretty wide. If US really was serious about stopping illegals, it would be pretty easy... Punish companies that hire or contract with them, those companies are the most if not all farming, hotels, restaurant, food manufacturing, garment, etc., If there are no job for illegals at ALL and NO company will hire them. Then they will pretty much stop coming, most that come, dont come to get welfare, they come because they THINK or WANT a job.

I talked with an company CFO that works for the major farming cooperitive in CA, and he said that their company does not employ and illegals, BUT they contract ALL the pickings to outside contractor, knowing and not caring if the outside contractors are using illegals.

The people who we should also blame and maybe most at fault is... US, the american consumer, me, and anyone that enjoy cheap produce, cheap hotel stay, cheap burger, etc., I know that when I see a good bottle of californian wine for under $10, that one reason it cheap is because the wineries are using illegals. Heck they even admitted on PBS documentery, or that I can get a hotel pretty cheap, or eat at a cheap chinese restaurant by my house all because of those business using illegals. Not paying them much and definitely not offering health care. Sure I have a slight pang of guilt, but it goes away pretty quicky as I can afford to have nice quaility of life on the cheap.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 18, 2004, 10:44:

apparently you haven't heard Haven't you heard about things like fake SS cards and documents? Walk through MacArthur Park in Los Angeles any day and you'll get a dozen offers for fake documents. Many thousands of people are working on fake docs and having taxes witheld by their employers who may or may not know the employee is illegal. Also, Federal law only requires that employers check documents but does not hold them responsible for the validity of the documents.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 18, 2004, 10:49:

By the way You say I prefer to ignore that huge problems exist in the states. Apparently you can't read since I said "I think the drain on the medical system is unfortunate and don't know what the answer is."

I just don't like jingoistic people like you who appear to blame illegal immigrants for problems which they, as a group, aren't necessarily the ones responsible for. For example, there is a huge problem with people using the ER and not paying. This is hardly exclusive to illegals but is, rather, a problem of the poor in general who have no medical coverage. I've known plenty of illegals who knock themselves out to pay their bills of all types.

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martiinbogota says on Nov 18, 2004, 16:09:

Excellent !! Hello Litost !!

I'm colombian and very proud of my roots and culture, I've been living all my live here and all that I can say is "Excelent" what a high level lesson of dignity and mature and smartness you've given to mad-lion and all the other americans who think in same empty and short way...All that you'd described is the truth, specially the last paragraph:

"It is totally unfair and naive to suppose that those colombians who overstay there visa and illegaly work in the US are a "burden" on american society... if you knew anything about the reality of immigrants' lives, you would see that they are usually the hardest working, less paid and most exploited part of society. They are cleaning your toilets, washing your dishes, building your houses, working your warehouses, etc. You are very ungrateful to their sweat and efforts to make a better life for their families, and they have every right to do so, no matter what a passport says... don't forget the "society" you mentioned is built on immigrants, and the colombians are no less than the italians, irish, chinese, etc."

Yes mad-lion, we might have lots of reasons to thank you and your country to let us stay or start new horizons ot improve our future in your country but don't forget that part of your progress in a big percent is because of the hardest immigrant work !!

Open your eyes mad-lion and GOOD FOR YOU Litost and your cousins :)

Hello everyone, I'm colombian funny and easy going girl who lives in Bogotá and would like to meet USA visitors and english speakers who are staying or living in Bogotá. You can write me to marti_0121@yahoo.com or martti@latinmail.com Martha

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Bill1243 says on Nov 18, 2004, 19:37:

True Hollywood, you are right,,,,that there are also tons of poor people here that are using ER services and don't pay, but at least they are legal. Why compound the problem exponentially by allowing illegals to also do this?

----------------

And well spoken, Martiin, but once again, how do you justify breaking the laws of the land. You are from a country where apparently laws mean little...I see it all the time.... while we are from a country of laws...and compliance with those laws. Using Litosts philosophy, he would let in EVERY person on earth, just because they have a need to feed their family. This moral argument completely negates the law of our land.

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litost says on Nov 18, 2004, 20:46:

Bill, there's no point in continuing to argue because obviously we won't agree. I understand your position, it's very typical and predictable. I don't blame you for thinking like you do. But AGAIN, I have to set the record straight and say that I never said that every person should be allowed to enter wherever whenever they want. I know that's not going to happen. I'm talking about understanding, as a human being, the individual motives and actions undertaken by people to migrate and work illegaly. You, who by pure chance were born on the richer side of the fence, feel your comfort threatened and base your argument on purely legalistic(?) grounds. No offense, but I find this very selfish. I may be on the other side of legality on this one, but I am on the humanistic side and that keeps my consciense at peace...

You can keep on repeating all you want that I come "from a country where laws apparently mean little"... it just makes me laugh when I look back at you who the american people elect as president, what a lesson on respect for law and reason!!!

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Lionheart says on Nov 18, 2004, 21:21:

read your history lessons This is not a USA issue only.

All countries open their gates when they can't find enough workers to do the low end jobs. Like the railroad workers from China in the USA. The Turkish workers in Germany, the Algerian workers in France, the Indian workers in England, and so on ... once these countries have enough workers they try to close the gates, but it is too late.

Global economics proves one fact, once you depend on poorer countries to help, you become dependent. Close the gates, but you still rely on illegal immigrants to do the job even cheaper. The USA would be hell without illegals doing the low end jobs. Western Europe isn't much better, depending on cheap labor from the East now.

Just accept it, it is a fact of life, bitching won't change it, and attacking each other for their opinions won't change it either. Many illegals I met are proud persons, working their asses off to feed their families back home. Is that a desired life? No .... but very real. I respect all who work hard to make the live's of those they love better, legal or illegal. I do no respect leeches, here or there.

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Bill1243 says on Nov 19, 2004, 00:14:

Litost,

You talk conscience.....how much conscience do you have when you advocate the breaking of laws. I get so sick of Colombians coming up here and bringing their own values with them, many of which are circumspect at best. They seem unable or unwilling to do the most basic things in our "rule of law" society. And you, being the way you are, are totally unqualified to judge the efficacy of our current president.

Thank you very much for showing me how you foreign-born people think about our country and our laws. To you we are only a place to make money and send it back home. And anyone who stands in the way of that is "selfish" according to you. In addition, you make it sound like it is a piece of cake to be from here....even though there are millions of poor people here and anyone running a business here knows how tough and competitive it is.

It is why it usually takes two or three generations to truly acclimate foreigners to our way of life and to truly appreciate what we are working hard to build here.

But I can understand your thinking...coming from a country where people buy off cops, run stop lights, and a myriad of other things to skirt the laws of your land.


--------------------------------

And Lionheart, you are right, that countries always have imported labor, sometimes to keep wage rates low, sometimes because people in the host country don't want to do those jobs. A certain amount of legal importation of labor is in order in these situations. But when borders are porous and the masses flock in, driving out our own workers, NO country condones this, nor should they.

As a kid, I was imported to work in Switzerland to do jobs that no one wanted to do there. But when my visa was up, I left, as the law demanded. We are a world of nation states, and one country cannot be the saviour for the entire rest of the world.

Everybody has a right to feed their family, but that does not include the right to break the laws of host countries in order to do this. Period ...end of story.

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DiegoDelNorte says on Nov 19, 2004, 06:33:

Elmo, No Me Olvides, Porfa "Guys like Utopia cowboy, Mr. Hollywood, Caslug, Miguel and a few others are America’s very, very, very, very tiny minority."

espero que estoy en tu lista completa, modefoque!

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ColombianoX says on Nov 19, 2004, 09:27:

"But I can understand your thinking...coming from a country where people buy off cops, run stop lights, and a myriad of other things to skirt the laws of your land."

Bill1243,

Don't think that all of us colombians have no respect for the rule of law. There's a new generation of colombians with a first world mentality who are disgusted by all these things you mention. Hopefully one way we can educate our 'paisanos' back in Colombia into changing their backwards mentality.

"The WWII example (atom bomb) doesn't fit..."

Why doesn't it fit Tinto? The japansese attacked a U.S. military base(Pearl Harbor), and the US retaliates by nuking innocent japanese civilians? I think this example fits perfectly!


ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 19, 2004, 11:17:

elmo I was reading a book to "my" kids today, and surprise surprise, it was a story about a guajiro boy's first encounter with the mainstream culture as he saw a truck and thought it was the Devil. Then when explained that burning gasoline in the motor makes it go he tried to set his old donkey on fire....anyway, it is a story of a guajiro herder that became blind at the age of twelve and now lives in Caracas with a wife and children. The book was illustrated with very accurate drawings depicting guajiro indians by a German artist; Monica Doppler. The book is called "Ni vaca ni caballo" in Spanish. Fascinating.
Anybody you know?
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 19, 2004, 11:20:

this is the link http://www.colortoy.com/Front/Productos/Libros/Detalle.asp?xIx=40
I found the book in the net. You might want to buy it to read to your grandchildren:)))) elmo.
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 19, 2004, 15:51:

The topic of "illegals" breaking the law always gets me stirred up. People want to crack down on the people coming north looking for work to feed their families but they never want to do anything about the corporations and businesses that thrive on illegal labor. If it was not so easy for "illegals" to find jobs here, they would not come here because it would not be possible to work. They would be worse off than they were back home. Politicians will never do anything about this because they know who is giving them campaign contributions and it's not the "illegals"! I say anyone who wants to come here and work instead of hijacking planes and killing people is more than welcome. Bienvenidos, amigos!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel says on Nov 20, 2004, 06:40:

Great Thread Reminded me of Belushi in "Animal House" when he stated...'did we run from the fight when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?'...
The statement about "buying off cops, running red lights, etc" is hardly unique to Colombia. Gringos and gringas behind the wheel talking on cell phones scares me more than any taxi driver in Barranquilla. Corruption in the States rivals anywhere in the world, including Colombia.

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

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Miguel says on Nov 20, 2004, 06:44:

Aproposito, Elmo Glad to be on Your List! And remember..."only three years and 50 weeks till the next presidential election".

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

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Bill1243 says on Nov 21, 2004, 15:52:

none of Elmo's None or few of Elmo's comments apply, as per usual. And Tinto is right... the Japanese would have fought to the bitter end if we didn't have a weapon they couldn't answer to. Untold numbers of people from both sides would have died if Truman didn't make the decision to use the bomb. Anyone who denies this doesn't know their history and the history of this decision.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 21, 2004, 18:07:

I just noticed Miquel's comment that "Corruption in the States rivals anywhere in the world, including Colombia". You got that right. I used to practice law and it would astound the average citizen just how much corruption there is especially related to the drug trade. No wonder those guys want to keep it illegal - too much money to be made otherwise!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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elmexicano says on Nov 22, 2004, 03:26:

atomic bomb Well Mr. first of all Historians are a bunch of guessers. If we didnt drop the bomb we would have been invaded by the Japanese closer to home. And second read you're history, why dont you ask the people of Palao, Phillipines and other Pacific Islanders how they're families were brutally murdered by the thousands by the Japanese: mothers, fathers, children. Get the surviving families of the Atomic Bomb and people of the Pacific Islands to have a discussion. It may sound cruel but it got Japan to surrender and help our Allies defeat Germany in WWII. And there is a word for those killed by the bomb, it is called "Collateral Damage." If it wasn't for that we'd be speaking German and living under Communism, just like Cuba. Why don't you have a discussion with a family member who's family member was lost in Pearl Harbor.

marcos

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 22, 2004, 04:14:

While you're guessing German surrendered in May of 1945. We dropped the atomic bombs in August of 1945.

So how did dropping A-bombs in August make Germany surrender in May?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 22, 2004, 06:50:

while we're at it... Since you appear to have a stunning grasp of geopolitics, please also explain how we'd be "Speaking German and living under Communism...." I'm not as smart as you, but wouldn't we be living under Fascism if we'd lost the war to Germany?

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 22, 2004, 07:14:

We interrupt our regularly scheduled programming for... ...a special presentation about WWII



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki



I found this article on Friday after the discussion with Elmo. A pretty good overview, I think. It lists some of the main factors, talks about what would have happened if the bombs were not used, questions if the first would have been sufficient, etc.



With respect to the end of WWII/Russians/Chinese/Communists, Colombia was the only Latin American nation to send troops to fight during the Korean War. Some historians and opposition politicians say they only did it to stay in the good graces of the U.S. and the U.N. Others say Colombia was always strongly anti-communist, especially when compared to the rest of LatAm... Regardless, they were there and they fought (very well, with official commendations) and more than 150 of them died.



http://www.theforgottenvictory.org/old/kwstats.htm



http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/allied.shtml - this is an official link and has a higher casuality count (6200 active troops, 163 dead, 28 MIA)

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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caslug says on Nov 22, 2004, 08:27:

enlighten self interest... old as time, and good as any reason for that both side of the debate is using.. at least we ALL can agree about that. The people who blame illegal do it because they feel that illegals take money out of our pockets(ie, higher social welfare taxes), while the people who defend illegals think either it is in our interest to do so(ie, lower produce, hotel, restaurant cost, etc.,).

Martininbogota, are you kidding me, construction industry is one of the biggest industry(along with tourism, restaurant, agriculture) that benefit from a pool of illegal workers. Like hollywood said, ANYONE that wants a fake green card or social security card can get one for under $300 USD. But you are right, IF a business is caught using illegal in the US, the business is FINE. BUT the catch is, INS inspect catches about the same amount as IRS inspector catch tax cheat... practically zero, even less. So many business, that is the cost of doing business.

So for all of you who are truly against use of illegal worker then put your money where your mouth is. Dont use business or product that use them, unfortunately that means starving in the US. Lets see 99% of agriculture, restaurants, food processing , hotels, etc., OR at least start writing to your senators and congressmen to complain and have them do something about it. Of course, since you as an individual cannot donate as much compare to industry lobby group that WANT illegals, your congressmen will just send you a nice letter saying he/she is working on it. While taking money from the industry lobbyist to want to cont. using/exploiting illegals. BTW, if you have stock in those type of companies, you are indirectly making money off of them to.

As for me, i am a practical person, i dont care how or why the products i buy in the USA is cheap. as long as can spend less money than i need, i will have more money to pay for my trip to COL, where of course the workers are NOT illegals, well maybe some foreign english teacher, teaching english on a tourist visa. BUT since i am not using their services, i dont have to worry about being a hyprocrite.

another fact to think about... Even after the first US Govt was formed in 1792 or 96 i think. Settles from Europe just came on a boat and settled, and i dont think ANY of them applied for visa from US embassy abroads.

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cait says on Dec 12, 2004, 11:04:

without illegal immigrants, much of the agri-business sector would struggle to make such good profits

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