What’s so great about Tourism ?

Enrique187 says on Dec 12, 2007, 11:35:

I think it will drive up prices making things hard to reach for many native Colombians. I also think the country could dilute culturally which would be a real shame. I hope it stays as a hidden paradise. Colombia has a great culture as is and should remain unique. I don't want to see it become another Costa Rica. I think its notorious reputation will keep it from booming like Panama or Costa Rica.

Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 12:19:

I think Colombia is too big and complex a country to compare to Panama or Costa Rica (We could fit over 20 Costa Ricas inside Colombia).

In Colombia's case, I think some cities or towns are likely to become tourist hotspots (i.e. Cartagena), but I have a hard time seeing the entire country being overrun by tourons.

Take Mexico for instance, it has some touristy cities, towns and sites, but most parts of the country preserve their original flavour. Colombia is more comparable to Mexico in terms of size and the current security situation than it is to the other two.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Enrique187 says on Dec 12, 2007, 12:21:

good point Colombiche.

El Polo says on Dec 12, 2007, 12:39:

I've seen certain parts of Cartagena which have grown due to tourism, and has provided much needed employement for the average colombian, but not all parts of cartagena have been influence or cleansed due to an increase in tourism.

donmia says on Dec 12, 2007, 12:47:

There are a few ways that tourism benefits the average Colombians. More money coming into the country for whatever reason means there is more money circulating. Unfortunately, it is a short-sighted statement to say that those who have tourist-related businesses are the only ones who benefit.

If you have a dry cleaner, you benefit. Not because tourists get their clothes cleaned while on vacation but because the tourism businesses have more money to spend and they are the ones going to the dry cleaners.

Now, is this going to make a HUGE impact? No. Marginal at best. But I was raised in Florida. One of the advantages of living there was that so many people came and paid sales taxes and gas taxes that they would not otherwise pay - we got small pieces of their money. We also have a crazy-high sales tax on hotel rooms.

All this is to keep our state taxes low here in Florida. We get money from the tourists, which keeps our taxes lower (in theory). We don't have an income tax in our state, but most state's do. We also do not tax groceries in our state. All because we have people coming through our state paying sales taxes on things that tourists buy.

It's a trade-off. I'm not endorsing more toursim, either. Don't get me wrong. But there are some good things that come out of it.

My grandfather, a politician in Florida, said the biggest pain he ever faced were the thousands of screaming voters who moved to Florida and complained about the tourists after they got here. "they're spoiling our beautiful place with more roads, tacky signs, more traffic, higher home prices - you have to do something to restrict all this growth."

He always wanted to tell them "what if' we'd locked the door before you got here?"

Be grateful you found Colombia. But like everything else, it will change.

Waterdawg says on Dec 12, 2007, 12:48:

Try and buy Property up in Boquette Panama now .. Sam and his pal Kelly killed it for all but the deep pockets ..

kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:18:

I can see how some "types of tourist" are spoiling Cartagena, if this is the kind of tourist we are going to have, then no thanks, leave my Colombia unspoilt and unwanted, I will join GIB foundation on his cause of scaring tourons hehe :))))

El Polo says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:22:

Carajo esta perdida Kat.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:24:

No ya apareci, blin!!! hehehe

Estoy mas aburrida que mico en bonsai, la navidad en Europa es tenaz mijo!!!

El Polo says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:31:

jeje Kat no se preocupes todo por aca esta bien joperico tambien.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:45:

no hay chimichowers alla polo? :)))

El Polo says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:54:

esta muy jodia la situacion por aca, no hay nada de Chimi's Kat.

nine inch nails says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:05:

"Try and buy Property up in Boquette Panama now .. Sam and his pal Kelly killed it for all but the deep pockets .."

For now yes but with the sub-prime meltdown don't see as many purchases down south and with that prices will begin to stabilize or even go down. Just saw in Nicoya peninsula C.R. where the property taxes were recently raised way up and that certainly will affect demand.

A todos Feliz Navidades y prospero ano nuevo!!!!!

"Bank owned" (www.foreclosurebyowner.com)

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:46:

Like anything else, tourism can be done right, and it can be done wrong. It's kind of a coin-toss on whether Colombia will do it right, when the time comes.

Look at a country like Peru. Tourism has been a HUGE boom to their economy, providing relatively well-paying, clean jobs (as opposed to, say, copper mining). As a result of tourism the country's image abroad is all about Inca culture and cool things like that instead of cocaine and kidnapping (sound familiar?) which is what people thought of 15 years ago with regard to Peru.

The flip side of this, in my mind, are places like Jamaica where the locals have been largely annexed from their own beaches and priced out of a lot of locales. Beach and ski towns tend to be the worst in this regard, hell, look what happened to Aspen.

Either way, I can't see tourism making OR breaking Colombia.

Enrique187 says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:48:

Tourism is positive as long as it isn't solely about prepagos,cheap drugs, and marriage agencies. (I know the country does not promote it, I am talking about intentions of some.)

john_stark says on Dec 12, 2007, 19:46:

I agree with Albatross. I have lived in a bunch of tourist towns, from the coasts of Maine and Massachusetts to the Hill Country of Texas, and I absolutely loathe tourists. They cause traffic jams, drive up prices and generally make life miserable for the locals. The ONLY people who benefit are merchants and vendors selling crapola that no local wants or needs. Tourism and tourists are a plague.

miamimike says on Dec 12, 2007, 19:48:

I hope in the Future that Agencies like IL(international living-Ireland based) don't get to much of a foothold in Colombia becase every country they get into, they start driving up the Real Estate prices beyond the Local's Reach and then when the prices have topped out, they search for a new country with cheap real estate to exploit. They did this in Panama,Ecuador, Nicaragua and maybe they will try it in Colombia. I feel Colombia is light years away from becoming a Mainstream Tourist Mecca due to the lack of Transparency(banks, insurance, residency ecy) and Security issues. I think for now it will remain a destination for the single adventure type tourists for many years to come. If they(colombian government) resolve these issues, then it could become a Medical Tourist destination as well as Place US Baby Boomers(couple types) to retire in. I don't think those residing in Colombia now have much to worry about(as far the Hawiian shirt wearing types) for the foreseeable future as far being overun by tourists like you see in Cancun, Mexico or San Jose, Costa Rica.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —President George W. Bush,

manINred says on Dec 12, 2007, 19:48:

Tourists may be the plague, but let's face it, Colombia isn't exactly a world-tourist destination. I don't think, other than boca grande and san andres (both of which are built for tourism) Colombia has to worry about such problems in the near future.

David Pristupa says on Dec 12, 2007, 20:31:

Low key tourists that wish explore a culture from a cultural intellectual perspective are fine. Those that come
and want Planet Hollywood flashy hotels
are the ugly ones. They should stay at
home. A lot of people don't like that low materialistic crap.

bufalo says on Dec 13, 2007, 07:23:

Glad to see someone else doesn´t see the benefits (supposedly) of tourism. I can´t stand when the dolts talk about "economic growth" and "benefitting the community" and all the other crap - they have no idea what their benefits screw up. Stop by, see the place, don´t be too loud then go home. if you want to stay and live then accept the differences. Personally I cringe every time I see a tourist down here or other places. Gringos love to go somewhere and say "what a paradise" then immediately say something stupid like, "you know what this place needs?", or the classic, "I´d like to help these people".

If it´s such a paradise, leave it alone.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Albatross says on Dec 13, 2007, 07:26:

I like the old hiker's mantra: "Take nothing but pictures... leave nothing but footprints"

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 07:48:

I prefer to keep Colombia "ghetto" too. Thats the whole point in going, right? You won't see me staying at plush hotels and buying 100k apartments.

Colombiche says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:08:

if you like "ghetto" you should be okay staying up in Bronx no?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:24:

The Bronx is'nt entirely a ghetto. Some parts of the Bronx are very nice like Throgs Neck and Riverdale. You got a million dollars for a house?

Colombiche says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:27:

Yes, some parts are nice but some parts are crusty.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:36:

Not much different from the rest of NYC. Even if you live in Upper East Side of Manhattan, who's waiting for you in the street? Crackheads and other street freaks...LOL

El Polo says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:58:

Those damn crackheads are evovlving now a days, There is one that stays by the ATM machine next to my job, that modefoque opens the door for you and on the way out he askes for money. LOL one day I thought I had that mofo setup, I walked out and anticipated him asking me for change which I didnt have, but that modefoque ask me for 20 bucks!!!

El Polo says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:59:

he caught me off guard I just walked away. LOL

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 13, 2007, 09:23:

Morphus, are you wearing leather pants in that photo?

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 09:27:

Why, is there something wrong with leather pants?

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 13, 2007, 09:28:

They're great for crashing motorcyles!

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 09:48:

I have a couple of pairs. Chicks dig it :)

Enrique187 says on Dec 13, 2007, 09:53:

I agree with Morphus. I like how Colombia can be somewhat "street" in certain places. I hope it doesn't become a concrete paradise as it would lose all of its unique value.

droble77 says on Dec 13, 2007, 10:55:

I have mixed feelings about tourism too, but I suppose we're ALL guilty of contributing to the problem in some place or other. I work in midtown NYC, right in between the lights of Broadway and Rockefeller Center/Radio City. The tourist traffic is always crazy around here but especially at this time of year.

On the other hand, I'd imagine a tourism boom in a small-town area like Albatross mentioned would be worse in a way because there's nowhere to escape. I can also see how getting press like "best small town" in certain lifestyle magazines can be a kiss of death sometimes.

Albatross, I'm assuming your parents owned a home in that town. Did they at least get something out of the boom?

Unfortunately, this kind of phenomena shows that sometimes in life you can't get too attached to anyplace in particular. Ride the boom, sell high, and move on to the next thing. Kinda sucks for those who want to live a more laidback lifestyle, but the movers and shakers of the world keep pushing things, and it's like you have no choice but to play their game.

That's why I would say enjoy Colombia for what it is NOW. Maybe more areas will become a tourist trap filled with touts (like certain streets in Cartagena) and jack prices up even more. Or maybe the internal conflict will flare up again and make things more dangerous. We don't know. So just enjoy it for now because nothing is certain in this world and there's no point in agonizing over changes we have virtually no control over anyway.

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 10:58:

I work near Time Square. Tourists don't bother me.

manINred says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:07:

Yeah the Bronx is strange. My only experience with it was when I got lost, driving around. I was driving, the only one sober at 3am among 7, missed some bridge in manhatten, and the idiots new yorkers who were supposed to give me directions well one was passed out, the other was too drunk to see. I found my way to some place, made another wrong turn, and found myself in sketch-town. I told the guy who was still barely conscious "i'm at a street called Jerome with a big bridge" and he told me, oh, we're in the Bronx, ummm, I'm too drunk to see, just ask for directions and go along Jerome". I did and tried to ask directions, but the black guys at the street corners didn't seem to want to be disturbed. One minute i was in a nice neighbourhood, the next in a shit one. 2 bloody hours later I finally get back to Manhatten and found a highway to New Jersey, and was back in Montreal a couple of hours later.

manINred says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:12:

I would hate to see the Colombian culture changed. Mango's makes me sick because it attempts to immitate western culture in the most nauseating manner possible.

On a related note, i was at indigo bookstore the other day and I saw the travel section, picked up the 'lonely plant colombia', what a piece of crap. It first proclaimed that Paisas were the "texans" of Colombia and then went on to say that if you want typical Paisa partying go to Mango's.

Mangos????? You have got to be kidding me. It's a sickening attempt to immitate COWBOY TEXAN culture, and then the texan comparison made sense, the moron obviously equated Mango's to typical Paisa rumba, and when he did that, he equated paisas to texans, a series of false conclusions based on inept comparisons.

No, no, no, if that is what tourists see when it comes to beautiful Antioquia, please tourists stay away!!!!

El Polo says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:14:

I once got drunk to the point were I couldnt see and woke up the middle of the night with a fat chick in my bed

LOL just kidding guys

El Polo says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:18:

she fell asleep on my arm, and I woke up to a strong "calambre" like sensation.

Lowell says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:24:

coyote ugly = when wake up in bed and you don't want to disturb the person on your arm, you chew your arm off to get away. Goes for both males and females caught in this dire situation. LOL

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

morphus says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:31:

Jerome ave in the Bronx is very ghetto. I remember I was showing some Brit girls around a few years ago. The part of the Bronx they were staying was clean and quiet. They said they wanted to see the worse parts of the Bronx. Jerome ave was the first place I took them. Then Hunts Point...LOL

El Polo says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:33:

Lowell I could haved gnawed my damn arm off and not felt a thing, that chit was NUMB!!!!

Albatross says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:51:

Droble,
My parents did very well, when the market peaked, they sold their house and retired to Minnesota (which is where my mother's was raised). They made enough to build their retirement "dream home" right on Lake Superior and had about $250,000 left over to play with.

Like they say, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Albatross says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:52:

Mango's... gimme a break... pretentious blancos, drunk prepagos, expensive drinks all wrapped up in a lame attempt to look like an upscale redneck bar in San Antonio.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Colombiche says on Dec 13, 2007, 12:07:

"On a related note, i was at indigo bookstore the other day and I saw the travel section, picked up the 'lonely plant colombia', what a piece of crap. It first proclaimed that Paisas were the "texans" of Colombia and then went on to say that if you want typical Paisa partying go to Mango's." - ManinRed

Actually, I am not offended by the analogy between Texans and Paisas. My sister moved out west to Alberta and when we talk on the phone she always tells me "Albertans are the paisas of Canada and Calgary is the canadian Medellin".

Paisas are earthy people, regionalistic and lovers of the land. Pisas can be urban dwellers but there is always that finca/earthy streak. Most of my uncles and cousins, regardless of their occupation love horses, fincas, cattle. I don't have a cousin that doesn't know how to ride a horse. Hell, I am a very good horseback rider myself, I've been doing it since I am 4.

And of course, don't forget the paisa undercurrent of separatism... didn't you ever hear of antioquia federal? Look at my avatar, that ought to explain the idea LOL.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 13, 2007, 16:18:

Texans don't love the land, Colombiche, they love the oil under the land and the cattle grazing the land.

manINred says on Dec 13, 2007, 17:17:

Fair enough Colombiche, however I felt that other than the reference to regionalism (which to be honest, i wasn't under the impression Texans were known for) the link had more to do with a connection to Mango's, the world's most irritating, comparatively overpriced and super-mañe nightclub, which at the very least I can say does not represent a typical Paisa's idea of a party.

My experience with Antioquia was/is prodiminantly urban, where I logically got a fairly urban vibe. Medellin just seems such a far-off cry from Texas, if you know what I mean! Then again, with all of the rolling hills and beautiful land, it's no wonder they appreciate the countryside.

Robert Jorge says on Dec 13, 2007, 17:27:

If it was a necessity to make a "Texan" comparison to a region of Colombia, I would think the llano would be the most comparable. There are plenty llaneros who are still real cowboys.

Colombiche says on Dec 13, 2007, 19:12:

Oh God, no... Mangos is not representative of paisa culture AT ALL. It is representative of gallina culture.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

romy says on Dec 13, 2007, 19:26:

I find a lot of similarities between the Calgary Stampede and La Feria de Tulua. I have amazing times at both.

john_stark says on Dec 13, 2007, 19:27:

"Hell, I am a very good horseback rider myself, I've been doing it since I am 4."

Do you go bareback?

john_stark says on Dec 13, 2007, 19:29:

A true Texan does love the land even when it's wide open and windswept with not a tree in sight. A lot of people are urbanized but like Australians they always have a soft spot for the wild places.

David Pristupa says on Dec 13, 2007, 19:32:

Has anybody seen "Time Out" Bogota.
The latest edition lists dozens of Bed
And breakfast starting out at $100 per
night (its just a bad dream)

tomtom33 says on Dec 14, 2007, 03:28:

The horrors of tourism. God, get a grip! Colombia has evolved over milennia to get where she is now. Who is anyone to say, "Stop?" Not all change is good. but it is inevitable whether or not I approve of it.

The "good old days" are now. Today is the absolute best day of my life. And tomorrow will be better. Bring it on.

morphus says on Dec 14, 2007, 05:50:

What about all that unsettled land in Colombia? Colombia needs to expand and build more cities. Colombia should start giving land away for free like the U.S. did way back when. I would'nt mind starting a coca farm.

bufalo says on Dec 16, 2007, 06:37:

To expand on what Morphus wrote..... take a good look at a map of Colombia, almost the whole right half, (eastern) is damn near empty in comparison with the rest. Literally almost half the country has no major cities. I honestly don't like tourism and do not believe for a second that it is as beneficial as people make it out to be. Numbers on paper is not real life. But one should also live like tomtom33 said, "The "good old days" are now. Today is the absolute best day of my life. And tomorrow will be better. Bring it on"

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Albatross says on Jan 8, 2008, 08:22:

I'd like to believe that as well but the best day in my like was Saturday, Janurary 12, 2002.
As July 20, 1969 must have been Neil Armstong's.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

rocinante says on Jan 8, 2008, 08:55:

"... tourism. I can´t stand when the dolts talk about "economic growth" and "benefitting the community" and all the other crap - they have no idea what their benefits screw up. Stop by, see the place, don´t be too loud then go home. if you want to stay and live then accept the differences. Personally I cringe every time I see a tourist down here or other places. Gringos love to go somewhere and say "what a paradise" then immediately say something stupid like, "you know what this place needs?", or the classic, "I´d like to help these people".

If it´s such a paradise, leave it alone." -Bufalo

I could not agree more.

Just like the guy who complained about the fireworks. This is the way it is. Take it or leave it. Better yet don't take it, just leave.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Jan 8, 2008, 08:59:

"Tourists may be the plague, but let's face it, Colombia isn't exactly a world-tourist destination. I don't think, other than boca grande and san andres (both of which are built for tourism) Colombia has to worry about such problems in the near future."- Main in Red

Totally agree. Besides crappy beaches in Cartagena why any tourist wold come to Colombia? Everything here exists ten fold elsewhere for less money and less aggravation. For vacationers. mind you.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Jan 8, 2008, 09:12:

Lastly, someone mentioned the boomers looking to retire. Some early retire boomers have already started the retirement process by starting the future home deal - buying, constructing etc...

The ones that won't be retiring for another 5-10 years are ALREADY looking into their future retirment "home". Colombia is not on the list.

The boomers looking to retire in 10 - 20 years will be looking to decide on future home in the next 5-15 years. In 10 years Colombia will still have close to the negative connotation that it has now. Colombia will miss the boomer retirement because by the time Colombia' s rep is clean, the boomers will be committed to Panama, Mexico, CR, and wherever else International Living ruins. These IL guys buy real estate and business, invest in a city and then pump it up and take the profit. I can't wait for the boomers to all be retired.

Plus because Panama, CR, Mexico is paving the way NOW, by the time the boomers all retire thier gated communities and cities that have pushed out the locals will be so "Westernized" that it will be a plug and play retirement - a no brainer for the boomers.

Colombia still has and will continue to have problems that make it "not an easy path" to retire. Banks, Visa, infrastructure, government etc....

Plus there is safety in numbers and boomers like to take the path of least resistance - retiring in countries that already have a huge retirement base.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Chelesupercono says on Jan 8, 2008, 11:45:

Colombia will never be a tourist destination for many years to come, if ever, so I would not worry to much about that and I always tell everyone" Super Dangerous don't go there" seems to work.....am I being selfish?

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

john_stark says on Jan 8, 2008, 20:50:

"To expand on what Morphus wrote..... take a good look at a map of Colombia, almost the whole right half, (eastern) is damn near empty in comparison with the rest. Literally almost half the country has no major cities."

You're right and what I'd like to know is, what's out there? Has anyone been there? Why is it so empty? I'm really curious about this.

Colombiche says on Jan 8, 2008, 20:55:

Colombia is an andean nation. The natives climbed the mountains to settle in milder climates and escape from the extreme heat and tropical diseases of the lowlands, those were very unhealthy climates, especially back then. If you look at all the great precolumbian civilizations, you will see a direct relation between altitude and the degree of development.

The spaniards followed suit. Climbed up and settled between altitudes of 900 to 3000 meters, I guess they realized the natives were on to something.

The only reason the lowlands of the coast are more densely populated than the eastern planes is because they are close to the ocean, and the most heavily populated cities in the pacific and atlantic coasts tend to be directly by the ocean or have been ports.

The llanos are hot, close to the jungle and three hurdles (cordilleras) away from the sea.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

msaucey says on Jan 8, 2008, 21:02:

Applause....

Colombiche knows her true pre-colombian history, which is definately needed on here...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

christobeldawg says on Jan 8, 2008, 21:31:

what about places like Cali, aint it hot, and not in the mountians nor near the coast? Why was it settled?

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

john_stark says on Jan 8, 2008, 21:43:

Have you been out to the llanos? So it's hot. Can't be any hotter than Monteria. Close to the jungle? So are a lot of places. I just don't get it.

msaucey says on Jan 8, 2008, 21:45:

C_Dawg.... Hello, por las Calenas! (Laptop wont let me type my N right)...

We have a long way to work with you... But, we'll get you there...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

christobeldawg says on Jan 8, 2008, 21:57:

uhoh, get me where? I am travelin blind here...I was born for this.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

msaucey says on Jan 8, 2008, 21:59:

C_Dawg, just the way it should be.... Be afraid

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

christobeldawg says on Jan 8, 2008, 22:05:

but I am not afraid of chit, to use Elmospeak

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

Man Tequila says on Jan 8, 2008, 22:43:

Tourism is not the plague some here make it out to be, nor is it some sort of panacea. Colombia will not attract tourists in such numbers to change real estate in the short term, most of the folks buying in Cartagena are Colombian.

In addition to helping hotels and hospitality, tourism might persuade the government to develop more infrastructure. Colombia does have a bad reputation and tourism may help change this somewhat, but it will take ten to twenty years. Peru once had a poor tourist reputation too.

There is a difference between a tourist and a would be emigrant. Paris is a nice place to visit but I don't want to live there.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

slguy says on Jan 8, 2008, 22:58:

I agree, MT. Paris is a gorgeous city- but it seems to full of parisiennes for me. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

podborski says on Jan 9, 2008, 01:55:

So I guess none of the anti-tourists like to travel themselves?

Interesting to see people's opinions on this, but I have to wonder, what would anyone suggest be done to stop tourism? Or to stop people from buildng expensive homes? I guess we could all live in a place where houses must be exactly equal in size and quality, and no one is allowed to travel outside their hometown.

Sounds wonderful, sort of like Cuba : )

tomtom33 says on Jan 9, 2008, 03:47:

You got it, Pod. "I can come to a place, but no one else can."

podborski says on Jan 9, 2008, 06:46:

huh, looks like we killed the thread tomtom. I was waiting to hear all kinds of rationalizations about why "I am not like those other tourists", mostly based on being morally and intellectually superior I suppose.

rocinante says on Jan 9, 2008, 07:31:

podborski, speaking for myself I embrace the culture of where I travel. However, most cities, in an effort to attract tourists, initiate changes to accommodate the tourists. Weather the toursits are asking for the change or the industry recognizes the needs of tourists and thus initiates the change, is irrelevant as the asunto is "tourism" .

When a city, in an effort to become more tourist friendly, adds McDonalds, Hard Rock Cafe's, certain types of hotels and attractions, the city loses what made the city the city in the first place. The culture becomes diluted.

The change and compromise in culture that the cities enact is my problem with tourism. If cities would accommodate tourists in a way where no McDonalds and Hard Rocks were added and the city remained true to itself then that would be a different story.

The bottom line is Colombia will never be a major tourist destination, nor will it be a major retirement destination in the next 20 years - for reasons scattered about this thread and elsewhere.

In short the people who are tourists here and who retire here and/or move here are happy, for the most part, with the way things are. Most of the changes in recent times here are due to a flourishing economy coupled with an real estate boom from las afueras.

This has nothing to do with tourists being bad people or tourists ruining something as much as TOURISM when it causes changes.

Visitors/tourists to Colombia welcome!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

tomtom33 says on Jan 9, 2008, 07:41:

I am certain that things will change everywhere. I might not like some of those changes. But they are going to happen anyway. I try to embrace all.

rocinante says on Jan 9, 2008, 07:44:

Everything changes unless time stops - and we can't stop that! As long as it changes slowly, then everything is great.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

podborski says on Jan 9, 2008, 07:47:

Actually I sympathise with the anti-tourists more than I let on. I just don't agree with the "it's fine for me but not anyone else" atitude.

I'm the first one to avoid the Hard Rock Cafe and all that crap, I hate those places, not because they are big and american, but because they are cookie cutter, boring, with bad food etc.

Looking for undiscovered gems is about my favourite pastime, which is what attracted me to Colombia in the first place.

And I also just HAVE to tell everyone about any great place I find (whether it be a beach, restaurant, country, bar etc.), no idea why. I always figured it wouldn't really make a difference I guess, but I'm starting to think otherwise. I might just start to keep my discoveries a little more quiet.

I hate to see places get all touristy, but you really can't stop it, so I just accept it and look forward to the challenge of finding some new spots, and anyway, even paradise would get boring after a while, you need to keep moving.

Oh, and there's also the potential to profit by finding and buying into the great spots first and selling as soon as the rest of the tourons find it : )

slguy says on Jan 9, 2008, 07:53:

"When a city, in an effort to become more tourist friendly, adds McDonalds, Hard Rock Cafe's, certain types of hotels and attractions, the city loses what made the city the city in the first place. The culture becomes diluted."

I'm not so sure I agree. How can a tourist, hanging in the same places they would at home, dilute the culture? They're not even interacting with any culture...and I don't recall any country losing their culture- and blaming it on Big Macs.

But I could be wrong.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

diabloblas says on Jan 9, 2008, 08:03:

the influx of mc d, kfc et al make for convenient sanitary potties if nothing else...

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 9, 2008, 08:07:

As far as I know, no governments buy the franchises to the fast food restaurants people like to complain about. All the governments can do is apply the zoning (including signage) laws equitably and make some common sense rules about historical areas being off limits. I think the Chinese government decided recently to boot one of the KFCs that was too close (or had become too big and busy) to the Forbidden City. I only read the headline but it sounded like a good move and within their rights.

The heavily subsidized French farmers have burnt a McDonald's or two and dumped milk, potatoes, sheep, etc in the roads or parking lots. The strike/protest ends and they soon return to stuff to their faces with that fine American cuisine.

rocinante says on Jan 9, 2008, 08:22:

" When a city" does not always mean "government". But lets not discount that in an effort to promote tourism that city governments will assist business or ideas that have the ability to promote tourism - if the city government wants that.

I've said this before, unless you are a backpacker/explorer, have family or are doing the cheap drugs/hooker thing (By the way so many other places with cheap drugs and hooker BLOW Colombia out of the water) there is really no allure for the average tourist, family or otherwise to come to Colombia.

Colombia is not going to be the next Cancun/Vegas/Disneyland nor from a cultural city aspect will Bogota and Medellin ever compete with other large cities in the world like Paris, London, Buenos Aires, New York, Sydney, Beijing...

So all the tourism haters have not much to worry about.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

diabloblas says on Jan 9, 2008, 10:40:

i find it hard to disagree with just about anything you said roinante...

...carrying your thoughts a little further...once the government makes a concerted effort to make their country family oriented it becomes expensive & the penalties for drug use enforced ....thailand being a case in point.

Albatross says on Jan 9, 2008, 11:53:

"Disneyfication"

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken