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What's in a name? : Are latin cultures like Colombia really so machista?

I've always been fascinated by names: a name to me is a whole identity. Would I have a different personality if my parents had given me a different first name? What do people think when they hear your name? The kabbalists believed that you could literally destroy someone or something by diminishing its name, or give something life by naming it. Shakespeare, through the words of Romeo, said that names weren't really important "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet?" But they are. I imagine there aren't too many German people with the surname "Hitler" any more, or little South Korean boys with the given name Jong-Il or Il-Sun, especially if their last name is Kim.

I've come to a point in my life where I am facing the prospect of changing my name when I get married. I hadn't given too much thought about it: none of the women I know who married recently, except my kid sister - have changed their surname. I had a assumed that most guys wouldn't consider it a huge issue. After all, what's in a name, right? But my guy, well, turns out he's a bit of a traditionalist. He wants me to legally change my name to his. This being a real pain in the neck: not for reasons of feminism or anything else, but because I am already starting to build an academic reputation with my own name, all my documents are in my own name, and well, my own name is part of my identity and I wouldn't feel like me without it. We are negotiating: if it's really important, I guess I'll end up changing it. But who would that woman be without her name? My future self is a stranger to me.

Which of course, brings me to the subject of the Spanish way of naming. In spite of the reputation of Colombia, and other Latin countries, for being "more" machista than the North America and Europe, it seems to me that their cultural tradition of names seem quiet egalitarian: a girl keeps her own identity when she gets married. A name - her husbands - is added to her surname, but she doesn't loose her name. For example Gloria has two surnames, Perez from her father, Rey, from her mother. So she's Gloria Perez Rey. When she marries Mr Sanchez, she merely tags "de Sanchez" on at the end. Her kids have the surname Sanchez Perez: like DNA, one part from the father and one from their mother, and the whole family is known as "Los Sanchez". But she keeps her legal identity intact. This seems like a much easier way of doing things than in the North.

I suggested to my fiancé that we do the same. He looked at me like I was off my head. de Jones? he said "are you crazy?"

By CaritadeAngel on Jun 10, 2007, 11:34 in Friendly Talkzone.

kalder says on Jun 10, 2007, 11:47:

My wife has never taken my name. I don't think we've even talked about it. Means nothing to me personally. But a lot of men (as you're discovering) take this matter very seriously. Why don't you become Mrs. Jones and publish/speak under your original name?

Italian women don't take their husband's name either.

Incidentally, there are no Hitlers listed in any German or Austrian telephone directory. Or so I read somwhere.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 10, 2007, 12:02:

Well thats the thing, why is it so important?
Need my ID (passport etc) to match my docs ...I could of course, women do. But then why can't I just be Mrs Jones socially and keep my own for legal and professional reasons?

But that's not the main reason: its the fact that Mrs "Jones"is a complete stranger. I have never contemplated, ever, changing my name. When my sis changed hers at marriage, even her husband was surprised. My fiancé is North American. I sometimes think that for all that new world progressiveness, in some aspects of the culture N Americans are more traditional than Brits.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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Bagombo says on Jun 10, 2007, 12:38:

Name Change I'm male and I sure as hell wouldn't change my name after a marriage. I've had it for 27 years, people know me by it and its mine. Anything else would feel alien for a long time. As such I don't expect my girlfriend to change hers. That being said, the kids are taking my name because deep down I'm still a traditional, possesive male and my name must live on in my seed ;)

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 10, 2007, 13:05:

About the kids I'm totally fine with the kids having his name (or both our names) they'll be a product of our love and anyway, I love his name. But it's just not mine, that's all. I prefer the Colombian way.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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elreydelostrolls says on Jun 10, 2007, 13:50:

CA, just give him a good kick in the pelotas and move on.

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goin_south says on Jun 10, 2007, 14:40:

If you don't think names are....special, CA....then jus try spelling COLUMBIA! lol

Voy para del Sur

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Jun 10, 2007, 16:55:

Mrs. Jones Well of course it's not your identity, but think of it as your identity in this new life called marriage. It's going to be a bit difficult to accept, but in time it probably will be your identity as well.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I never took my husband's name when I married. As an Asian, my identity was strongly tied to my Asian last name. I felt that taking a non-Asian last name would have stripped me of my Asian-ness. I used to always picture a Chinese friend's wife as a petite Chinese woman and was quite surprised to find she was tall, blond and blue-eyed. That's what I wanted to avoid. Two names, hyphenated names, etc. seem to create different problems. If you feel very strongly about it, stick to your guns and he will need to be the one that changes his mind on the issue. Just know that his parents will probably still address you as Mrs. Jones (especially in correspondence), along with many of his family members.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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slguy says on Jun 11, 2007, 05:31:

Interesting thread. FWIW, I'm a 52 year old gringo raised in North Carolina (but left 20+ years ago), so they don't come much more traditional than my upbringing - and I couldn't care less if my future wife takes my name or not.
She can call herself Ursa Minor, if she wants, as long as it's me she comes homes to...
slguy
*
*
*

Now I don't have to tell you good folks what's been happening in our beloved little town. Sheriff murdered, crops burned, stores looted, people stampeded, and cattle raped. The time has come to act, and act fast. I'm leaving.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Monita Linda says on Jun 11, 2007, 09:31:

Rubito: please note that what nowadays is known as "Kabbalah" is NOT the real Kabbalah. It's a commercialized, out of proportions, wrongly interpreted thing and you should NOT get involved in it, at least do not take it serious, since, in the form as it is presented is a Hoax or Fraud.

You can choose to have your moms name on your cedula as well.

I (F) think I will add my moms name to my cedula, just because I think her name is nice AND out of respect for her. Also soon I'll be married, and I might just add 'de ' to my name. Or add nothing. I am not so sure yet!

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 11, 2007, 11:22:

In Colombia I always use both my dad and mums surnames
Because I like it and because officially, I get asked what it is. My mum is Scottish, Dad is English, so I have a special attachment to both names.

Monita is right about Kabbalah (the Holywood variety) is a pile of hogwash. I was referring to the medieval dudes.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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kalder says on Jun 11, 2007, 11:49:

Shakespeare A crypto-Catholic perhaps...but an occultist? Hmm.

And I should imagine the sufficiently determined could discover plenty of "hidden shit...based on numerical values of the words" in a lot of things. A recipe for pancakes, for instance.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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juanalejo says on Jun 11, 2007, 12:18:

Last Names In Colombia the married last name is no longer added to the woman´s name with the "de Garcia" style. The wife remains with her single name all her life. That is, how it works legally. You can change your name but then you have to go through the voluntary name change procedure.

Today Pedro Garcia Gomez is the son of Mr. Luis Garcia Ruiz and Mrs. Ana Gomez Perez, and not of Mrs. Ana Gomez de Garcia as it used to be.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Jun 11, 2007, 12:40:

Keeping an ex's name Rubito - I can think of at least 2 reasons why she would keep your name. 1) It's easier than getting all those official documents changed (driver's license, passport, social security number, credit cards, etc.) and 2) She always hated her last name, your last name sounds better or is easier to spell/pronounce. If you had kids, that would be another reason.

I've known a couple of men who changed their last name to their wife's last name because they never liked their name (too difficult to spell, hard to pronounce, etc.). Before we married, I told my spouse that he should change his last name to mine because it may help him land a job interview if the hiring manager thought he was a minority.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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jorgeemir says on Jun 11, 2007, 13:18:

Hola Caritadeangel. Congratulations on you soon being married. If I may give you my opinion. A name is just that, a name. It is not who you are. Once you get married you will continue being the same person you are now. I agree that it is kind of a pain to have to change documents and so forth, but is your husband not worth doing it?. If not, perhaps you should reconsider.
Also, you are being recognized academically I am sure for what you know and for your abilities as a teacher or whatever you do and not because of your name.
In regards to Hispanic countries being machistas, I have to agree; unfortunately for the most part latin men (including myself until I became a Christian and understod my role as a man and a husband)confuse the concept of what it is a macho.

If I may I would like to suggest you read Ephesians 5:21-33 in the Bible, and it will give you a very good idea of what Paul (inspired by God) says about the role of the wife and the husband.
I promess you, it does not say anything about name change because it is not relevant to the success or happiness in a marriage whatsoever. Good luck and God bless!!

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 11, 2007, 14:31:

Hey Jorge Thanks for that. Actually I think every country has its own special brand of machismo, I find the latin kind the easiest to deal with and the North American kind the hardest.

Yes, I'm already familiar with the Bible passages you mention: (better be careful what I say because I normally stay away from politics and religion here on PBH, my views on sex tourism being what they are, my detractors here will, in no time, drop their usual cries of "communist" "feminist" and "man-hater" to "consversative religious fundamentalist" without even skipping a beat.

The trouble is that I can see is that my love is from a different religion ... kind of a tough decision, but he's the best fit for me so far. Sure he's worth it. That doesn't mean that I don't fear the loss of identity.

But that's just the thing: Colombia for all its macho reputation, doesn't have the tradition of associating a woman by her man. Some things are just easier here.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak;
'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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Robert Jorge says on Jun 11, 2007, 15:14:

LOL gringoloid.
LOL gringoloid.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 11, 2007, 15:18:

Only cos you don't understand when they are being bitchy :D
I find North American men fragile under their tough exterior. Latin men have a strength that runs through them all the way to the core. They tend to be straighter talkers too - but then I understand machista in both English and Spanish. You can negotiate with a tough straight talker, harder with a fragile guy. Of course, this is why many women prefer latin men. Of course we are speaking of generalisations. Every man is different. As is every woman. And we are differnent things to different people. My love, gringoloid, is the only man on this earth who can shut me up with just a look. My sis asked "do you let him win arguments?" and when I said yes, she said "marry him!" So I am.

I hope one day y'all will bring out my sweet side that wants to bake you cookies, iron your socks, and massage your feet.

Ok, the cookies. Just the cookies.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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jorgeemir says on Jun 11, 2007, 15:41:

Hola again Caritadeangel. I don't want to be repetitive but you will not loose your identity because of marriage; unless you did not have one to begin with.

Just make sure before you get married that your husband is clear on what being a macho means and does not mean.

It does not mean you do not take care of your wife, it does not mean you are mean to her or hurt her in any way shape or form. It does not mean that you do not allow her to be herself, to be who she is.

It does mean that you are kind to her, you respect her, you provide for her, and you love her regardless of the circumstances and above all, you love her the way Jesus loves His church; meaning you would not hesitate a minute to give your life for her.

That's what a real macho does in Colombia, Usa or China.

God bless

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billyb says on Jun 11, 2007, 15:50:

BTW, "de Jones" means.... belonging to Jones and if that is not sexist, I don't know what is.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 11, 2007, 16:53:

Yes, thats actually true, how lovely to be in agreement with you We might even end up friends, Gringoloid.

But then why all the hate-posts about American women? Essentially, its your own culture and cultural values that you don't like.And while there is plenty to disparage about American culture, there is also the good stuff too: the men are much politer to women (the educated ones anyway) than your average Brit, they are lovers of freedom, justices, enterprise and democracy, and Americans are a brave, generous and open hearted people. Fair is fair.

We are all products of our culture, unless we are "corrupted" by others lol, like me. Some things of me are Asian or Latin American, and don't match the typical Scottish girl. The trick is not to blame the women from your culture: for they are merely the female counterparts of yourselves. And I'd eat my own hair than date a bitchy, dissing, money-obsessed, looks-obsessed guy. I'm all for changing cultural paradigms.

My man actually believes in the complete equality between men and women in a marriage, I go along more with St Paul, and Jorge. But the point of course is not my angst on getting married (though I have to say I'm looking forward to BEING married more than getting married). My point is that every culture has its machista, and that its perhaps not so fair to continually point the figure at Colombia in that regard. In some aspects, Colombia is much more egalitarian.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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Lisa Zee says on Jun 11, 2007, 18:42:

I took my husban's last name When I got married I was very young and that is all I knew, later I adapted my maden name as a midlle name. we are not longer together for many years, but I kept his name because of my son. I am slowly getting read of it. When I am in Colombia I use my cedula and I don`t have my American name. I think it is a matter of choice and if you love your man you will be proud to have his mane.

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 11, 2007, 18:49:

Well anyone who has really studied Racism KNows that multiculturalism doesn't work. Proximity, you see, does not necessarily lead to understanding. Better to live in cultures to learn about them. But I feel sorry for me of your generation: having watched your mothers slave for emotionally distant fathers, they grew up and found that the world had completely changed. And of course, because the male-dominated world is bitchy and competitive, when women entered it they had to be "equally" bitchy and competitive: without using the old imagination and rooting out the dog-eat-dog nastiness of the world of world (just my opinion).

To your dislike of feminism : I always find it helps to understand WHY women are feminists. I don't believe that feminism is the answer. I think something else is the answer, older and deeper and outside of time itself - but I understand - intimately - why women want to be feminists. Anyone who has walked into a burns unit in an Indian hospital can see it. Feminists - types of them - got me the right to vote and enter my chosen profession, got me the same pay as men for equal work - and exposed hypocrisy and lies. For that I am grateful.

But I also wear make up, like pretty clothes, believe in loving (yes, and serving) my man, and making him king of my heart. Nothing would induce me to abort his child, even if we parted. And yeah, I will probably give in and change my name - love is all about compromise anyway. At such, a real die-hard feminist would role her eyes in horror. Believe me, as an articulate woman, I have had far more hate-speach from militant leftist and feminists than from you guys.

All reactions are reactions to forms of injustice. If feminists are monsters, it was men who played Dr Frankenstein by acts of injustice.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 12, 2007, 20:39:

Shock...
But I don't see culture as a prison, rather, you just need to be aware of how your own culture affects the way you think, and how other cultures influence you.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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kalder says on Jun 13, 2007, 00:48:

Are you on the Buckfast? :) "I find North American men fragile under their tough exterior. Latin men have a strength that runs through them all the way to the core."

What? That's not true at all. I've met plenty of both. Scratch the surface of cultural differences and they're not all that different. Both camps possess steely-eyed men of purpose and vigour; lily-livered milksops; and all points in between.

You're romanticizing a slew of people way too large to be generalised about in the first place- in the way we idealise the Colombiana. Until experience teaches us that they're a mixed bunch too, just like anyone else. .

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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