what makes Colombia a third world country?

beisbollover says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:34:

Some people say countries in Africa and Asia as you described are actually in the 4th world.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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huskie says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:41:

I need to comment on this, Colombia is not a third world country, People say they have traveled extensively....and dare say that we are third world country, but in reality that is just a myth of the 60's era. I have see far more underdeveloped countries than Colombia. Maybe there should be a new way reference (4th, 5th, even 6th) country
Cheers

"Huskie; Many thanks for your comments. Do you intend to post anything constructive here? Are you ABLE to contribute ANYTHING?"an ignorant frenchman named Darloupoo

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ozgringo says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:47:

Huskie, you are right The Third World is an old Cold War phrase that really gives an extremely simplistic view of the way the world was.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_world_country

tried to think of something deep to write here.. but couldn't think of anything..

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Tolú says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:53:

Yes, third world was a political phrase.

The question should be: Why is Colombia an underdeveloped country with so many social and economic disparities?

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miamimike says on Jul 7, 2008, 16:16:

Tolú===Widespread ingrained Political Corruption surely stymies developement~another is lack of Transparency in Business and government

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 16:33:

Colombia is ABSOLUTELY NOT A THIRD WORL COUNTRY! The more any of you get to travel to nations all over the world, the more you will come to this CLEAR realization. A nation that was raked to have the best healthcare in the Americas (by the World Health Organization), a nation so heavily industrialized, so full of culture, agricultural abundance, an impeccably managed economy (despite the cost of fighting the criminals), and a nation that is more politically transparent today than most other democracies, is NOT a third world nation. Have any of you any idea how much corruption there is in the European nations, and in the US today? …do any of you understand the full impact of lobbyists in Washington? …Do you know how corrupt Sarkozy and Chirac are? …Have you not heard of the scandals in UK?
Heck, it is not in Colombia where a nefarious, drug- addicted hate-monger like Rush Limbaugh was just given $400 USD contract to promote his venom on the radio waves for over the next 8 years. Come on, it is time the world woke up to smell the Colombian Tinto!

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 16:40:

Yea, and do you know how corrupt and filled with crime New Orleans had become BEFORE Katrina hit?

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miamimike says on Jul 7, 2008, 16:54:

Morphus, that's what holds back many of these Latin American countries, this endemic institutional corruption. Look at Venezuela, with all its Oil Wealth, it should be the Paris of south america but a lot of its wealth is in offshore swiss banks and Key Biscayne million dollar homes and condos! And this was Pre-Chavez! Not to say it hasn't continued since he got into power but it(wholesale looting of the venezuelan treasury) was going on long before he took the Wheel!

TB--the OP isn't about New Orleans, its about Colombia,,,

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:11:

MiamiMike , the OP is not about Venezuela, it is about Colombia. In fact, to compare Colombia to Venezuela on the same commentary is a ridiculous absurdity. Do you not even know that Venezuela seceded from Colombia to develop a history of dictatorships after dictatorships? I do not know where you have been, but the only South American city that one had a chance to become a Paris-like city, was originally Buenos Aires. Bogota, which was traditionally called the Athens of the Americas (for its embrace of democracy) is in fact the only South American city that can be compared to Paris today. Bogota is cleaner than most Latin American cites, it is the fashion capital of Latin America and most importantly, its cultural Mecca. I am very fond the Venezuelan people (and probably you are one), but please have respect for Colombia’s reality; the bad as well as the good.

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Tolú says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:22:

Bogotá today is a North American city in design (highways, malls, skyscrapers). Before the "urban renewal" of the 1960's it had a European feel, with the trams and limestone buildings and small plazas.

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Tolú says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:26:

...except for all the crushing poverty, of course. But in 10-20 years, North American cities might match it.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:39:

whew...lighten up toby.....paris, bogota is not. modern yes. clean mas o menos. corrupt, as much as any latin capitol.and contrary to your obvious belief, medellin is the fashion capitol, as well, the culture capitol of colombia.

patriarch

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tejasmarcos says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:43:

"what makes Colombia a third world country?"

- their bread, cheese, lunch meat, milk, wine...

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:43:

SureTolu, Bogota has many North American influences, but so does Paris. I have lived there for a long time. The fact remains that Bogota is FAR more Eruopean than North Ameircan, and you certainly cannot compare the shopping centers in the US to those in Bogota (unless you prefer our Walmart and Target to the non-existent Carrefours and Exito's).

The truth is that Bogota is the only city in Latin Amrica that has made a serious architectural rapprochement to Paris, in the 20th /21st centuries. In fact, beginning with Bogota Mayor, Fernando Mazuera in the 1950s, who had lived in Paris, and who had wanted to make of Bogota the Paris of South America during his administration, to the hiring of the famous Swiss-French architect Le Corbusier (who actually lived in Bogota for an entire year), to redesign Bogota, to provide it with boulevards and parks, to indeed make it more like Paris. Oh, and dare we forget the famous architect Salmona, who was also born in (and partially educated in-) Paris?

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Tolú says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:44:

Colombia doesn't have a central capital like Argentina has with Buenos Aires or France has with Paris (no one is going to say Mendoza or Lyon are rivals, lol). Colombia has always been regional. Medellín is capital of Paisa-universe. B'quilla, Cartagena and Santa Marta are the triplets de la Costa. Bogotá is Rolocentro.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 17:59:

-Neither does France, Italy, Spain, USA, etc., Tolu. But what does that have to do with original thesis?

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Noelito40 says on Jul 7, 2008, 19:00:

I would never have considered Colombia 3rd World, I would think that it is a perfect example of a 2nd world country, i.e. a developing country. It has democratic institutions and improving infrastructure but it's poverty is the main problem to be tackled.

Noelito

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 19:06:

-Ooops, I need to make a correction on my earlier entry, where I mentioned Rush Limbaugh and the contract he just signed for $400 MILLION US-dollars to spread his hate (not the $400 USD as that I accidentally posted). Sorry.

Peace

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 19:18:

-Huh? Where on that chart is Colombia??? Colombia, is NOT a third world country, but you are free to wish it all you want.

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miamimike says on Jul 7, 2008, 19:28:

Noelito40 says on Jul 7 (today): flag

I would never have considered Colombia 3rd World, I would think that it is a perfect example of a 2nd world country, i.e. a developing country. It has democratic institutions and improving infrastructure but it's poverty is the main problem to be tackled.
=================================================================

Noelito--I disagree! The main reason for this Poverty is again, the Endemic Widespread Institutional Corruption that saps the financial life out of Colombia. Chile had this same problem years ago but they have greatly reduced the problem the last 20 years and their poverty rate now is greatly diminished! Hopefully someday Col will be the same. Its not there by a longshot as of now! And lack of Government transparency...Anything like C-Span on Col TV when their Representatives met to discuss eneactment of Laws????

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 19:50:

MaimiLike, sorry by orruption is actaully not as rampant in Colombia as in most of Latin America. In fact, interntional crime statistics now have Bogota as one of the safest Latin American capitals (and far safer than most large US cities, like DC or Miami) Have you been to Guatemala or El Salvador lately? At least the crimes and kidnappings are tabulated better in Colombia than in Venezuela, Mexico or Brazil, where local officials don’t even bother to any more, or they are told not to report the crimes (for the sake of keeping the stats low). As for Chile, I have seen the slums of Santiago first-hand, they are very much there still, so let’s not get carried away. After all, it was heavy investment by wealthy American corporations (after the fall of Pinochet) which wanted to capitalize on what was SUPPOSED TO be Chile’s entry into NAFTA at that time (-ha, to be followed by Colombia in short months, at that time), until the US congress got cold feet and nixed the idea. Chile got stuck with all that great kick-start US financing, which Colombia, or Argentina, or Uruguay would have also done much with. Did you know that the USA has the largest percentage PER CAPITA of it national population incarcerated in the world?

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Noelito40 says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:00:

Miamimike, no reason for disagreement, I simply stated a fact that it's the poverty that needs to be tackled, wasn't giving an opinion on the cause.

In fact I agree wholeheartedly that corruption is to blame for the poor distribution of wealth (just look up my other posts on the iron grip of the Colombian bank cartels!) but having said that I believe that Colombia is not as corrupt as other countries in SA, and from what I've seen is making some efftorts to improve the lot of everyone.

Noelito

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christobeldawg says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:24:

Let's say that Colombia is a 2nd and a half world country.

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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ardhvc says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:27:

i'd say it's a 2nd world country

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:30:

...Let's not. Sorry but with all do respects, that is just one more opinion Christobeldawg.

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christobeldawg says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:31:

doesn't meet the second world criteria, overall, but neither does it meet the 3rd world criteria.

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:36:

What makes you think it does not make first world?

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gimmedub says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:46:

colombia is a 3rd world country because the wonderful things mentioned above are only available for the privileged few... i'd say 2nd world countries are usually smaller controlled economies like iceland, bahamas etc... it will be generations before the average colombian has affordable access to healthcare, education, and decent paying jobs.

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tejasmarcos says on Jul 7, 2008, 20:56:

gdp, roads & infrastructure, lack of basic services outside the big cities = colombia

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:03:

Girmmedub, you are obviously highly misinformed about Colombia. One of the reasons that Colombia earned the No. 1 ranking in the Americas (as raked by the World Health Organization), is because Colombia has a unique system that allows affordable care ACCESS to its citizens. Did you know that the current mayor in Bogota is currently endeavoring to provide UNIVERSAL Health Care to everyone in the city?
Surely it is not perfect, but can you show me a nation that has it today?
You mention education ? …Why do you think Bogota garnished the title in 2007 of World Capital of the Book? …Do you know which is the most visited library in the world? Did you know that Colombia has 98% literacy ...amongst any of the highest in the world? The you say small nations are in 2nd world? …what are you talking about? Have you any idea how much economic power Denmark or Switzerland have (the latter with its central bank that governs the central banks of most nations)?

Gee wiz guys, I am falling asleep from this and going to bed soon.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:06:

Oh, and salaries (as low as they may be compared to some in the US or Western Erope) are far better in Colombia than in most of the world. If you don't believe me, just do the research.

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webmanco says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:08:

I could do without many tall buildings and the destruction of natural habitat

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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christobeldawg says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:14:

What makes you think it does not make first world? Toby

I appreciate your, well, your appreciation of Colombia, but come on.

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:27:

Good question good sir (Christobeldawg)...

For me it is all about the very kind people and quality of life (great healthcare, great culture cleanliness, weather (any), incredible quantity and quality of food, and a progressive mentality. With or without riches, I could NOT find a better place, and please beleive me I've been around; including Sutton Place (in NYC) and the 16eme Arrr. in Paris, and of course, around misery all around most of this world, yea including Colombia. But when all is said and measured, and you start to grow old, and you've traveled enough to compare and contrast, you will see, what Colombia really is. Of course it is not perfect, but I certainly do understand why it is one of the happpiest nations on the planet

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christobeldawg says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:30:

Good response. So it is a first world country in your eyes, and that is all that matters.

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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RussianFred says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:32:

Dubai is not a third world country. It is a great city just like Medellin. If leave the big cities you see why Colombia is a third world country.

Annual Drug Deaths: Tobacco: 395,000, Alcohol: 125,000, 'Legal' Drugs: 38,000, Illegal Drug Overdoses: 5,200, Marijuana: 0. Considering government subsidies of tobacco, just what is our government protecting us from in the drug war?--Ralph Nader

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:37:

Thank you for understanding. For me, even though I have even studied Theorhetical Nuclear Physcis (or maybe becasue of it), among other subjects, I find so much of life is a matter of perspective. I hope just a few more people around the world get to feel as I do about (much maligned) Colombia. Perspectives, and opinions can be so impacted by money, media, and pre-determinend prejucides. In 1936 Germany enjoyed much respect (good & bad). The perspective sure changed by 1945. Perspectives can be so capricious, MUCH like love. Again, thank you for being so understanding.

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christobeldawg says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:52:

I know the country well, and I have seen the best and worst of it, and yes, it is very much a matter of perspective, what one is drawn to, etc., but basically, I love many things about it, don't much like some things about it. Please don't ask me to say what I love, and don't so much like about it, as that would take all night, and if I tried to do it quickly, it would lose all meaning, all feeling..

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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TobyBoy says on Jul 7, 2008, 22:00:

-I understand. Anyway, if you find Nirvana, let us know anyway. ..sweet dreams!

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christobeldawg says on Jul 7, 2008, 22:30:

You'll be the first to know

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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Lcacique says on Jul 8, 2008, 00:38:

Toby: with respect to wages in Colombia, the country has one of the greatest disparities in wealth distribution not only in the region, but in the world. Just ask the World Bank. You are correct that Bogotá won World Book Capital City, which is an admirable award for the city's promotion of books and reading; however, that does not really explain the country's overall education system (p.s. I am not tearing it down, just stating a fact). In addition, can you please provide a link to back up the claim that Colombia has the best health care system in the Americas. I'm not saying you're wrong just curious. Also, I'd like to see one for the most visited library if you can find one.

Personally, I can careless about such terminology...third world, second world or first world it is one of the greatest countries in the world. Not for the buildings, theaters, health care, schools, etc. but for its people. That is just my humble opinion.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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kalder says on Jul 8, 2008, 00:44:

"For me, even though I have even studied Theorhetical Nuclear Physcis (or maybe becasue of it), among other subjects, I find so much of life is a matter of perspective."

TobyBoy- pure, undilute entertainment...

I didn't think that PowWow could be replaced, but...

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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huskie says on Jul 8, 2008, 01:06:

A degree in "Theorhetical Nuclear Physcist" yeah right, in writting " theathrical" BS, I would say
Cheers

"Huskie; Many thanks for your comments. Do you intend to post anything constructive here? Are you ABLE to contribute ANYTHING?"an ignorant frenchman named Darloupoo

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viajero123 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 8, 2008, 01:26:

http://unitas.wordpress.com/2007/06/30/ranking-of-world-health/
This said, I don't know how this was calculated, as I don't think the system is so great. There are too many people receiving bad health, too many people dying in front of hospitals and too many people not being able to afford medicines and treatments.

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miamimike says on Jul 8, 2008, 02:32:

T/B & Noelito--Well, based on what you have told me, we Simply will disagree on Ingrained Institutional Corruption(and apathy) and lack of Transparency in Colombia. Simple Question, ever wonder why a Letter sent in Colombia to another address 3 houses down the street through the Colombian public mail system takes more then a month(as a rule) to arrive at its destination? This Good for Business?? Yes, I have traveled pretty extensively throughout the Americas as well as the Far East so I have a few country's experience for comparison's sake.

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 05:33:

well, toby....i, as colombia, appreciate your devotional support. however lets not let this cloud our vision.

i've lived in colombia for 19 years...medallo and it's surrounds...not the bogota area. and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who loves the country more than i do. that, in and of itself is not enough to blind me to the hardships the people suffer under. the rich, are filthy rich and the rural and innercity poor are painfully poor, and there's only a thread like bridge that connects them. there's little if any compassion amongst the corrupt rich for the have nots. it's a shame. and as for those altruistic souls that have intered congress over the past 15 or 20 years....navarro, the indigenous, gov of choco, et al....at the end of the day, these cads think about themselves and oh so conveniently forget about their constituency. sad but true. i taught english to the children of campesinos in the outback of colombial...many the children of insurgents. and the only thing which kept these folks from being equals in colombia was/is the status quo. the haves don't give one damn about the have nots. don't, please, decieve yourself...it does nothing to aleviate the problem. those that have the luxories in life entertain no desire whatsoever to raise the lives of those who don't...on the contrary, they can be so callous towards the have nots as to be totally heartless in this respect.

i've no clue what you know of colombia outside of it's major cities, but before you issue patent statements as to beloved colombia's position in the world, re this and that, go out there in the hinter lands and live as the poor do. see their plight and share their lives. then such pronouncements will be tempered by a reality which goes across all extremes.

i genuinely respect your spoken regard for this marvelous country. but the internal corruption infecting the 'haves' needs come a long way before this incredible country can place itself amongst the worlds leading nations. i love colombia with all my heart, but i am hardly blinded to the issues she needs address to advance in the world.

patriarch

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miamimike says on Jul 8, 2008, 05:34:

JJ--please reread my statement; I didn't say anything about letters sent from outside Colombia. The Question is, again, "ever wonder why a***** Letter sent in Colombia to another address 3 houses down the street through the Colombian public mail system takes more then a month(as a rule) to arrive at its destination?"****************

==================================================================
And your answer is? BTW, what is the connection between where, when and how much a person has or hasn't traveled to the above question on Colombia's public mail system? You need to reread the question,,,

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 05:39:

JJ...en re your comment about more travel experience is needed....travel in colombia? please do me a favor and elaborate on this . just so i am clear on what you are comparing.

patriarch

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beisbollover says on Jul 8, 2008, 05:42:

Sorry but any sovereign country that has large parts of it that it does not control is a third world country. Everyone here keeps citing stats on what goes on in Bogota. Colombia is much more than just Bogota and it is this rest of the country that makes Colombia a third world nation. Bogota might be on par with DC or Paris but drive 10 hours away in some directions and your sitting with the FARC or ELN or whatever other terrorist group controls that area you find yourself in.

Whenever I am asked about Colombia by typical Americans who don't even know where it is on a map I tell them the truth. There are two Colombia's. One is the First world you find in Bogota, Medellin, Cali, Barranquilla, etc... The other is the third world you find in between.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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Catfish35 says on Jul 8, 2008, 06:07:

A R E P J A S

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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Tolú says on Jul 8, 2008, 06:16:

dwmte,

Those are wise words. Everyone should listen. I agree that Colombia is #1 for people-- happy crazy beautiful people. No doubt. But, like you said, that disparity of wealth is disgusting. Right from the beginning, the Spanish made sure that all the immense wealth of the land ended up in the hands of a few, rich whites. Nothing much has changed. It's the same families who control everything. It's the same bad deal for people who have strong African or Indigenous ancestry.

If you really want to talk about Third World, let's talk about the Pacific region. Colombia has more Afro-descendant people than Cuba and is second in Latin America only to Brazil, but who would ever know that? You rarely ever see them in big numbers (except maybe selling stuff on the side of the road in Cartagena) elsewhere in the country, because they're mostly living in a gigantic, departamento-sized palenque on the Pacific coast.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 07:49:

go anywhere around buenaventura and you'll see the blacks in deep shit poverty. pushin themselves around with poles in and outta the jungle in canoes. tryin to flog anything along side the road to get a penny or two. very little luck. but you don't have to go to the selva and don't need to concentrate on the afro colombians....shit, go out side of any metropolitan colombia a couple of miles, on any finca and man, you're in the low third world. on the same finca, the 'haves' with their suvs and mercedez and lavish life style, 50 ft from their workers who live in huts.

patriarch

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 8, 2008, 07:50:

In his book "The Open Veins of Latin America", Eduardo Galeano calls the southern continent "countries with "arrested development", founded in the same time period as the US but as they were bled of their resources during the colonial period they never had the same chance to develop economically and socially as the US or Canada had.

What Tolú says is the truth, the lands colonized by the Spaniards were exploited mercilessly by the Spanish who also established thes Spanish type social classes and structures and institutions in Colombia; the wealth concentration in the hands of a few, white, European descendant, educated minority while the majority of the people go to their beds in the evening not totally sure if they are going to have food on the table for the next two weeks. Even if they don't live in poverty their life is precarious and the safety nets are few and far apart. Health care is one of the sectors that has improved most in my years or abscense, also the possibility for government -financed housing for the poor, but it's all too little, too late. It's the social structures of Colombia and the uneven distribution of wealth added to the lack of controls, impunity, political corruption and the fact that the Government not only doesn't control all the territory but they seem to have forgotten that there are people and necessities out there in the peripheria too that breeds guerrillas and violence and also makes Colombia very much a Third World Country.There are areas of Colombia that are borderline Fourth World (Chocó for example, the whole Pacific coast). That there are few posh neighbourhoods in Medellin and Bogotá, perhaps even in Cali, Barranquilla and some other larger cities and towns does NOT DENY that fact. Even the poorest Fourth World African countries have skyscrapers and garden cities for their leading elites.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:16:

I call it a middle income developing country with pockets of 1st and 3rd world.

Re the cheese comment, that's a mystery to me, too. They have a large dairy industry and it seems like only three or four cheeses are widely available: Double Cream, Campesino/Farmer, Costeño (some people say it's so salty it's only good for mixing with arepa flour) and the one they call "Holland style" and promote heavily at Christmas. In my experience, anything beyond the big four are very expensive.

I'd like to see a cheese with dried and smoked aji in it!

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Tolú says on Jul 8, 2008, 09:04:

For future reference: Sweden has the tall, blonde girls, not Switzerland. Swiss girls are shorter and more brunette, like the Italians or French. ; )

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Tolú says on Jul 8, 2008, 09:20:

Maybe I went to the ugly part of Switzerland. Most of the women I saw were on the short side, no body, with moon-faces. I felt like I was in freaking Chiquinquirá.

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miamimike says on Jul 8, 2008, 10:18:

Another 3rd world sign; are you able to drink the public water in all Col cities without contracting the Giardia Bug and the ensuing runs?

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 10:43:

Jack Jason - You definitely still can bribe the police in Colombia. I go every two months and I have seen it. At least I saw it in Medellin and a good friend of mine in Cali said he did it when he was caught driving under the influence. As far as Bogota, dont know. But be realistic, you still can bribe police with much more freedom in Colombia.

Morphus - Iceland is ridiculous - problem is - doodes there are to really good looking - cant get away with being some fat old doode with a 23 year old.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:12:

Feminine looking....NOT!!!
There's nothing more masculine looking than these tall descendants of the Vikings. I find men with Mediterranean ancestry more feminine-looking.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:14:

I am 29, good looking, 100 percent Californian, I am just making the point, that in most places I go, I become much better looking. In fact, in every country I go to, I am better looking then I am in California (doodes (and women) in Ca. are too good looking). But there are two places out of the 40 plus countries I have visited where my stock as far as looks goes did not go up Iceland and Argentina. Not to say it went down, it just did not go up.

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Lcacique says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:16:

What is AREPJAS, a new terrorist organization? Or were you implying that arepas make Colombia a third world nation?

Desi, Galeano is a great writer!

morphus and elmo are correct, it is a pretty good indicator when you have a ton of old, ugly dudes traveling to have sex with someone they could never have sex with in their respected country, chances are (but not always) that the country is "3rd world" (I hate that term).

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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Tolú says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:20:

"10.000.000 arepas, immediately, or we kill the hostages!"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:27:

I don't think they looked specially feminine. A guy does not have to look like a cavernicola to look masculine. Just strong, healthy and a little basic, not so worked on.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 12:50:

Hi LCACIQUE;

While I agree that such terms as 1st or 3rd world have little iimportance, I still felt a need to respond to your questions.

As you can see in the link below (and as I said-) from the World Health Organization (the most reputable institution on this smarter), Colombia ranked 22nd, above any country in the Americas, including the US Canada, Cuba, or Chile:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

…Oh, by the way, Colombia invented & developed the first Pace Maker for the heart, performed the world’s first tracheal transplant, has some of the best eye-care specialists, and it leads in Malaria and Cervical Cancer research.

With regards to Bogota having the most visited library in the world, here (below) is just one of many typical articles you can find on Bogota’s Biblioteca Luis Angel Arango -library. I hope you can read Spanish, but if you cannot, there are some in English you can probably Google, or just call the library for info. …Oh, and have you visited the Biblioteca Virgilio Barco?

http://www.revistadiners.com.co/noticia.php3?nt=815

Now with regards to income and wealth distribution, I personally feel the whole world is messed-up. BUT if you want to accuse Colombia of having such disparity, I suggest you take your own advice and visit the World Bank figures. Here is just one of them:

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/lac_wdi.pd...

Sure, there is a grave discrepancy of wealth in Colombia, but it is actually in the above-average range for Latin America. Colombians’ have one of the highest mortality rates in the world, despite the fact that statisticians include deaths by the insurgents, etc. Colombia also has a lower mortality rate than the USA for women during childbirth.

Most importantly, Colombia, like Chile and Brazil, are leading the way in reducing wealth disparity, while it is the absolute opposite in the USA.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 12:52:

Sorry Morphus, Iceland sucks. Most Icelander emmigrate because they cannot stand it there, and they wind up working up to 12 hours a day -thats a norm. And Yea, I've spent much time there too.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 8, 2008, 12:59:

Some of the scientific claims don't hold up. Colombians may have been important contributors but the artificial pacemaker has several fathers (Canadian, Swedish, American) and the malaria vaccine turned out to be not much more effective than a placebo.

I know Wiki has errors and omissions, but FWIW this article does not mention Colombia or Colombians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pacemaker

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:04:

toby...without quoting some source. i would like YOUR take, from personal experience in colombia, on exactly WHAT is being done and by WHOM to equlibrate the distribution of wealth in colombia. i remember stat classes in the u. anyone can alter them in any way.

however, on the ground, hands on observations really count with me. so tell me what you know of all this. for, in my long term experience in mother colombia.....nothing is being done and it will be a long, long time before anything, remotely resembling equinimity results.

i'm not here to argue with you, nor with your quotes. rather, i'm interested in the welfare and upliftment of colombia's innercity and rural poor. too, i have applied my time and pocket towards that end.

patriarch

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beisbollover says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:12:

It's so clear that the major size cities of Colombia are quite advanced, beautiful, modern and cultured. But the the places in between these cities are the opposites. This is where the leftist guerrillas live, work and recruit. This is what makes Colombia a third world country. It will stay this way until the government takes control of all parts inside it's borders. Security is the cornerstone to prosperity.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:44:

Re libraries and literacy, I hope things are better than when this report was published (1996). A single showcase library is nice if you live close to it, but from my observations, Colombia sorely lacks community libraries and reasonably priced books.

http://travesia.mcu.es/documentos/colombia.asp

----------------------------
According to the latest edition of the National Public Library Directory, published by the National Library of Colombia in 1996, there are 954 public libraries in the country. The bibliographical stock owned by the 954 libraries adds up to 3,511,704 books, 40% of which belong to libraries in the private sector.

According to this figure, Colombia has 0.08 books per inhabitant, approximately one book for every 11 persons. And, worse still, the largest number of volumes is concentrated in the big cities. The average number of books per library is 3,681

If we aspire to have at least half a book per inhabitant, a very modest aspiration compared with international standards, we would still lack 16,500,000 books, to be distributed throughout the totality of our national territory, almost 5 times what we have at the moment.
----------------------------

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:51:

Hi Dwenty !

Thank you for writing such a touching address (earlier) to my previous entries. I enjoy civilized debate and discourse very much, that is one of the many ways we can learn, but it is so sad when I see the weird or degrading comments I often see here to some of the posts (including my own). And, I actually enjoy humor, but I really don’t see much healthy humor of it in this forum.

Anyway, I promise you that if you were to live for 19 years in ANY other country, you would also find a plethora of problems with them, like them or not.

I have seen poverty in Colombia and in many other countries, and trust me, Colombia is nowhere as bad as MOST of the planet. Gee, there is more tabulation and press coverage of the poor in Colombia than the poor in the USA; Appalachia, the Mississippi delta, parts of Texas, the north-of-the-border communities, the South Bronx, Watts, and I could go on. As for the rest of the world, no one should comment unless they have seen firsthand the Sudan, Sierra Leone, Haiti, Nicaragua, Egypt, Albania, Nigeria, (where dead corpses lie in the capital un-buried for months, along-side the roads in the make-shift gutters), and I could go on. Colombia is far from perfect, but it is high-time we started to better focus on the Colombian reality, in contrast to the rest of the planet.

Now someone mentioned race (think it was Desiderata). Cuba has a lot of blacks, but you would never have known it from the Cubans originally residing in Florida. Before the Marielitos, most Cubans in Florida were in denial about the black population back home in Cuba. Trust me, I had many arguments about it, as I did my (highly educated) mother to vote for Nixon as she, an American could vote. Anyway, let’s put the racial thing into perspective.

Brazil, which I love, has far more black, in both numbers and percentages that Colombia. Just look-it up, it’s so easy. Brazil KEPT slavery for a long time after their independence from the Portuguese left, whereas Colombia did NOT (after their independence). Venezuela has far more blacks in percentage (double) than does Colombia, and THEY are less visible in oligarchic society and more marginalized. As much as I don’t approve of Chavez, he has already spoken about this. Colombia only has 7% to 8% percent of its population that is black. The USA has more than double than that in percentage (and number), which is NOT represented in our Congress, and even France, as the rest of Europe has major issues with percentage-representation. Heck, at least Colombia has a wonderful Minister of Culture who is a lovely Black Woman. Much progress has to be made in Colombia, but I am certain that they will make it quicker than the rest of the world! ..at least less die in Colombia form hunger than in the rest of the world, though I firmly believe NO ONE should be dying anywhere!

I have been to Choco, but I have also been to Africa (…I like Gabon), but most importantly, I have seen where we have hung blacks from trees.

As for those who argue that so many Colombians want to emigrate, blah, blah, blah, etc, I want them to know that IF more Colombians knew what they were facing in 2008 by moving abroad, most would choose not to leave. BUT the most shocking discovery that I am making, (and I am certain that it will one day be quantified, but you heard it here FIRST; is the fact the MANY Americans, Germans, French, etc. can’t wait to leave their country! I am personally being bombarded for more info about Colombia, and why I am moving there, something that would have never happened just a few years ago. Just wait and see.

Lastly, I can tell you CATEGORICALLY, UNDISPUTABLY, as the son of an international banker; that the so-called developed world I much more ROTTEN than the most corrupt inner-sanctums of Colombia. And that good sir, is exactly why I cannot wait to live there again, and permanently this time.

I want to be wrong, but please believe me, during the years to come, you are going to want to be in Colombia.

P.S: You ask more recently (in a more recent post) a great question !
All I can say is that I beleive that your efforts and mine to help the poor will be more transparently managed than in many otehr nations. I am currently making a long-study of how corrupt the new philanthropies are in the USA, since many greedy peolpel here have chosen that route for tax evation. Much work has to b edone in Colombia and elsewhere, but at least ther is more freedom to navgate those projects than in most other countries that need that aid. At least that is what I have found thus far. Have oyu any idea how difficult it is to help the poor on Brazil? -or how truly corrupt the police are in Mexico and Guatemala? I have done a lot business in such countries, naitons I care so mcuh for and whre I have tos of friends, but pelase beleive me, they (-nor the US) do not comapre to today's Colombia, not even close. Thanks for these excahnges Dwenty!

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mimimimimi says on Jul 8, 2008, 14:05:

Every country is unique , I have seen fucken non paved roads here in norway too and theres poor people here too ,russia is a parallel dimension hahaha cant be described either

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 14:05:

-Ooops (to typo) of couese my mom did NOT vote for Nixon.

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Lcacique says on Jul 8, 2008, 14:13:

The country has certainly experienced a reduction in poverty with the positive trend that the economy has been experiencing for the last several years. However, despite these wonderful changes which the World Bank acknowledges, they go on to emphasize the following on page 3 of their report "Colombia 2006 - 2010: A Window Of Opportunity":

"However, national figures hide great ethnic, gender, and regional differences. Afro-Colombians, indigenous peoples and female-headed households continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty. Regional disparities mean that rural areas like the poor Pacífica region lag behind while metropolitan areas like Bogotá receive a boost from the renewed growth. All of these factors contribute to Colombia's income inequality - the poorest 20% of the population receive just 3% of the nation's income, ONE OF THE MOST UNEQUAL INCOME DISTRIBUTIONS IN THE WORLD."

I have been to the Luis Angel Arango library but not the Virgilio Barco library (though I have seen it and it is beautiful).

Thanks for the links.

dwmte7,

The World Bank does applaud Colombia on the same page of the report I quoted for being the only middle income country in LA to have a poverty reduction strategy. What that includes, whether it has been implemented, and whether or not it is effective, I do not know. Clearly, a lot of work remains in this respect.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 14:41:

For the poorest 20% to receive 3% of a nation’s wealth is actually not bad. Colombia has a huge disparity of wealthy to poor, BUT IT IS NOT OEN OF THE OWRST IN THE WORLD. Not only do the figures NOT support such a thesis, but I urge you to travel to countries like Brazil, Egypt, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Russia, China, India, and Mexico, to see how their poor live. Did you know that in those countries there are communities so poor that they are not even on the maps? With so many ONGs and others in Colombia, the figures are much better researched FOR Colombia, but they do not reflect a global problem of enormous proportions accurately.

Let’s take homelessness, did you know that a modern city like Denver, Colorado, with just over half a million people, has over 10,000 homeless? …while Bogota, a city of about 8 Million has just over 7,000. Meanwhile, in my native New York, the city authorities are so CORRUPT that they strain to lie about the homeless problem there. There are no lawsuits by local organizations trying to force the city to tell the truth. During a cold spell, last winter, over 35,000 people approached homeless shelters there. And we dare not talk about San Francisco.

My point is simply this, figures, even when accurate, do not reveal the whole truth. In a country like the US, where diabetes (even in children) is running amuck, and where patients are not even able to get their medicines, such disparities of rich and poor become meaningless when you are dying.

Have you any idea what is happening to the Native Americans of the USA -which DO NOT even get counted in our Rich & Poor statistics (as they are considered to be of another naiton)???

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Lcacique says on Jul 8, 2008, 15:55:

I agree with many of your points, Toby. And you are right that figures do not always tell the whole story. The World Bank came to certain conclusions based on its studies, that's all.

Colombia has more NGOs than other developing nations? Are you certain about that?

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 17:10:

toby...it's dwmte...douglas w martin, the elder. and unless i've got horribly confused along this journey, we were speaking of colombia. threre are places i've worked in africa and the middle east that make poverty in colombia like a walk in the park. we really can't cross from one country to the other and keep our heads clear and focused on any specific objective. it becomes futile. shit, look at zimbabwe and that prick mugabe....good LORD, we could get off on that forever.

however, since our homeland is the issue we needs put our focus there. politicians ALWAYS pretty up their yard. but, friend, i assure you, not one thin dime is spent in the hinterlands. it doesn't show up on the political balance sheet. and, unfortunately, that's where the work really is. mention of the pacific coast of colombia. my GOD, there, you have african-like poverty. it's so fricken depressing. and the governor of choco....well there's a piece of work....how he sleeps with himself while his constituency suffers so horribly, i'll never know. that's what i'm talking about. you speak about librarys...i was living up in barbosa about 45 miles north of medellin and was sitting in the library one day and found myself entertaining a group of young school girls. how they'ld like a library...with books. a great big marvel in bogota doesn't do shit for them. i don't seek odds with folks, i seek help for those who are pitifully helpless. how can these young children be helped when the budgets for librarys are spent in the metropolisis of colombial. making them bigger, shinier and more lavish? i don't have the answer...i don't control the purse strings. and trust me, barbosa is anything but rock bottom. and it's not always that the powers that be aren't interested in the out back. they needs--being politicians--polish the boots where they live. an unfortunate reality. getting a budget for reading materials in the rural pueblos is like asking for new houses for the homeless in downtown medellin...barrio triste or nikitao...it ain't gonna happen.

patriarch

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 17:49:

Dwenty, I agree with just about everything you have said on your recent posting. Indeed we are talking about dear Colombia, but if you check-out so many postings in this spread and throughout the forum, you will find that too many people really see Colombia as a third world nation without ever having visited other nations in the REAL third world. As far as the Pacific coast goes, I am very concerned about it too -please believe me!

The only difference I see, is that with the new highway about to be built, between central Colombia and the Pacific, I think that once again, Colombia is on the right track, and Uribe is certainly now focused on helping out the Pacific (-and we should never underestimate the economic challenge Colombia has always faced given its topography). Nothing is ever easy, and things have not been easy for the current administration of Uribe. However, unlike in the US, and other nations, I think that Colombia has a much better chance at diminishing its wealth disparity in the long haul, and that is why I am moving there to make my base to help the poor around the globe in the years to come. Ciao.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 18:04:

good luck, lad.

patriarch

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 18:05:

Hi Cacique! ...al I ment is that there are many NGOs, good ones and bad oens oeprating in Colombia, more than they owudl ordineraily operate elsewhere. Why? ...just ask the FARC.
As a matter of fact, their complicity wiht hte criminals (like that of the Swiss negotiator), is finally begining to come out. Even the Wall Street Journal just published a great editorial about (I think yesterday). Ciao

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 18:21:

Tobe - If you are trying to make a comparison between the USA and Colombia based on disparity you are out to lunch.

Anyone knows that and any scholar or any janitor will tell you that. Period. It is ridiculous comparison that demonstrates a lack of reason, logic and any basis.

A million examples can be given but here are a few:

Percentage of population with access to safe water:

USA 100%
Colombia 10 percent of the population do not have it.

Average income:

Colombia 3,000 ish
USA 40,000 ish

But like you said lets not talk numbers lets just walk around and see what story it tells. I live in Los Angeles. I have walked through the worst ghettos here such as Compton, Watts, South Central, Long Beach etc. I grew up here my whole life and I have seen some outrageous stuff. Every Ghetto here has hot watter, decent apartments and/or houses, electricity, even many cars (beat up and old, but cars), house have heaters, police that show (may come late but they show up) and real roofs that keep rain out of the house.

A walk through a rough neighborhoods in Medellin, Bogota, Cali etc. will tell you that there is no comparison. There is no hot water, police, houses are brick and mortar at best and provide little protection from the element, no cars, no cell phones, no computers, no electricity nothing.

A girlfriend of mine down there told me how her Dad beat her mom and they would call the police and the police would do nothing, she had no hot water until 5 years ago.

Walk around look at the cars - I mean the cars in the richest part of bogota are Middle class cars in the US. People with a car in Colombia are doing decent. If you cannot aford a car in the US as an adult you are poor.

Be realistic, I love Colombia more than anything, but to compare it to the USA is a joke. And seems to suggest you have never been there. Or you went with fantasy land glasses.

I was walking through not the worst neigborhood in Bogota but a sketchy one, and I watched as a punk (mohawk etc.) just beat the sh*t out of his punk girlfriend. Nobody said or did anything. And it was normal. A girlfriend of mine said that is just how it is looked away and told me not to look. Never seen anything like that here. I have a thousand more examples - but that is just one.

Everybody here would walk through Compton in the day time, guranteed. Noone would walk through tres cruces, or the likes in Bogota or Medellin. I mean think about medellin, that neighborhood over by the Bus station in the north - its like a shanty town - super dangerous with high rates of crime - according to my piasa police don't even go in at night - can you even imagine that.

But lets compare Colombia to the USA - to the access wealth and abundance of the USA. Brilliant toby. You are a real road scholar.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 18:27:

Hey Tobe have you heard of
"Plan America" where the colombian government is giving the US millions in Aid?

Oh wait, isnt that the reverse?

Hey Tobe did you know that 20% of the Colombia is still controlled by Gorillas? Really comparable to the US.

Again I love colombia but we should all be realistic when we are there. I plan to retire there, but come on.... Comparing it to the US as far as standards of living for people of walks of life - ridiculous...

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 18:40:

TruthSpeaker, ...actually, I am a RHODES Scholar. And while you feel safe walking through Compton in LA, I sure as hell do not! Nor would I be crazy enough to walk through the South Bronx or Bedford Sty at any time (and I have done so, and I almost got killed).

I can match everything you said with a counterpoint, but what good will that do? You will still think the USA is better than Colombia, and that is just fine. Please stay in LA… but as for me, I can’t wait to get back to civilization; COLOMBIA!

Oh by the way, last time I was in my home time Manhattan, I was walking on the PLUSHEST intersection in the USA; where Park Ave meets E 72nd Street, and I saw one hell of a fight right on ht street, and guess what, some of the people around the fighters started to cheer them on, one even shouting “hit ‘em again!, hit ‘em again! . I have seen more crime in the US that any Colombian can possibly imagine. I have friends that lost a child in Columbine, and I myself lost my best friend to a pointless stabbing in an upscale NY suburb. Please do NOT preach to me about safety in the US, a nation that has the greatest per capita incarcerated citizens in the world.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 18:58:

Oh by the way, Ladies and Gentlemen, Norway has a MUCH higer per capita income than the USA. So, by the logic some of you, I beleive we should emmigrate to Norway.
And if you think that Plan Colombia is a big finacial deal, then you really do not understand numbers. After all, like mentioned somehwre before, Rush Limbaugh is earning MORE (400 million) than the US ever gave to Colombia in the famous Plan Colombia, on any given year. Heck, as I see it, it deos not even scratch the surface for damge reparaitons for all the narco dollar-problems that our addiction has helped fuel the insurgensts in Colombia, at a great cost to Colombian tax payers to fight against, not to mention bloodshed.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 8, 2008, 20:42:

Oh by the way, my penultimate entry was meant for nbenjamin mostly. Sorry guys, i'm just tired. Ciao.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 22:15:

Toby - Sorry about the typo - I was at work and typing fast - here are some mistakes in your post - "Higer" is not how you spell Higher, "Beleive" is not how you spell "Believe" "somehrwe" is not how you spell "somewhere" - My point is that if you are going to smack off about typos on a blog then at least take the time "road" scholar to type it write. I am an attorney in my first year of practice - I get paid 200,000k a year to use my brain - I am smarter than you - believe it. I will, however, make typos in this post - and I will apologize since you are so brilliant.

As for your comments - I love colombia, I have family there - very close family - the country is very close to my soul - You are just out to lunch. That is all, you were making a comparison between Colombia and the USA based on factors - such as Safety, Health Care, Human Rights, Financails etc. And that is a ridiculous comparison - one in which - even the most Anti-American person will admit is a ridiculous comparison. Admit it, you are wrong. Does colombia live up to its poor reputation in the world, no. But is it the United States of America? Get with it, no it is not, in respect to these factors and only these factors. In fact the biggest complaint in the world regarding the US is not how the country treats its own - but how it treats others.

Listen, I love Colombia, I am finalizing a purchase of a Finca in Rio Negro at this very moment. But you should be realistic that is all. No more no less. No need to resort to ad hominem attacks and to suggest I should "stay in LA."

Your statements seem to reflect a lack of knowledge regarding Colombia that is all. Are you going to argue that New York is more dangerous than Cali, really? Really - Here are some website s to take a look at regarding homicide rates:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-cap...

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate (Note that Colombia is missing through the 70, 80s and 90s because there were not accurate statistics)

Notice something funny Toby BOY? Yes COLOMBIA HAS A DRAMATICALLY HIGHER HOMICIDE RATE THAN THE USA. In fact, Colombia often has led the world in Homicide over the last ten years. But rather than argue this point you state - well the USA is not safe it has the highest amount of people in Prison. There are two inherent flaws with your argument (among one thousand others) (1) People in Prison does not suggest that a place is dangerous; (2) I am not stating the US is perfect - by no means. I am bleeding heart liberal like yourself. What I am suggesting is it is better as far as the subjects that I am naming - Safety, Health Care, Human Rights, Financials etc - than Colombia

You are a joke.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 22:22:

"I have seen more crime in the US that any Colombian can possibly imagine."

You do realize, right, that Colombia has led the world in Homicide rates for something like 6 or 7 of the last 10 years. But you have definitely witnessed more Crime than any Colombian ever has?

How many times have you been to Colombia, have you picked up a book and read about the country - any Colombian would tell you that is ridiculous. I mean really ridiculous.

In that very statement you demonstrated to the entire poorbuthappy family you utter brilliance - it is called a book - read one.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 8, 2008, 22:28:

My final comment for the TOBSTER - just be honest - how many times have you been to Colombia - tell the truth - you went like once, maybe twice, never to Medallo or Cali only to Cartagena maybe a layover in Bogota - come on be honest - did you guts up on a bus - Yeah you dont know anything about Colombia.

Do you know what Tres Cruces is? Before you go to the internet where is it? Is the North or the South of Medellin Dangerous? How bout Bogota? ah ah TOBSTER - dont look at the internet do you know? YOu dont do you tobes - Classic.

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 9, 2008, 00:53:

Any country which remains largely agricultural, largely unequal, poor, has no R&D investment and is primarily used for outsourcing (because its cheap) is a 3rd world country. Although the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th worlds division is now considered pretty pejorative. 3rd World Countries are "developing nations".

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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huskie says on Jul 9, 2008, 03:35:

nbenjamin, absolutely right on the nail!!!! So much for the "highly educated"
my flat a*** b**t!!!
Cheers

"Huskie; Many thanks for your comments. Do you intend to post anything constructive here? Are you ABLE to contribute ANYTHING?"an ignorant frenchman named Darloupoo

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 05:12:

benjamin....i'm a californian.....there's a real country. had my business for twenty years on the bev. hills west hollywood line...we manufactured custom furniture to the desidn trade,sold oriental carpets, and antique furnishings from antioquia. lost it to the fricken rodney king riots as did 5,000 other businesses in l.a. county.

i started living in medallo in '89...never left. back around '94 or somewhere in there, LA was crying over the fact that it's homocided rate had, for the first time, topped 500. while that same year, medellin was in excess of 5,000.

now i'm hardly here to berate my adopted home, the truth is.................. colombia is not the u.s. and never will be. maybe that's why i love it so much. actually i much prefer poblado back when the streets were dirt and violence was ever so prevalent. at least it was anything but a tourist trap...i.e.parke lleras. there was something in that violent era so incredibly romantic that it just seduced me and, as i said, i never left. my youngest children were born there (medellin and envigado) and one, lucas danial, is buried on the mountain east of the hotel inter on las palmas by la cola de zorro.

RIP...lucas danial

patriarch

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Tolú says on Jul 9, 2008, 05:58:

Take out the FARC from the graph and you still have all the paramilitarios and simple banditos...

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webmanco says on Jul 9, 2008, 05:59:

One of the reasons Colombia don´t succed as it should, it it "regionalismo" people believing their city is better than others, instead of treating Colombia as a whole.

Bogotá rules :-)

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 06:17:

i find no gain in this tete a tete....and jack...why aren't you back home?

i love colombia, i'm not blind to her problems, and i'm not making any comparisons with any other place. we're talking about colombia. and as you all know, there's plenty of work to be done....by everyone,

patriarch

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 9, 2008, 06:51:

Toby, I'm glad you found a place that's right for you in Colombia, but some of your 'facts' are way off the mark. Saying Rush Limbaugh's contract is for more than the US ever gave to Colombia in a single year is one example. Plan Colombia has been on the order of $600 to $700 million dollars every year. Check out the numbers: http://ciponline.org/colombia/index.htm

There's some old saying I can't quite remember but it's along the lines of, "you don't build one place up by tearing another down." A lot of us like/love things about Colombia but we also like/love a lot of things about where we currently live. We're not blind to the good and bad in both places so please don't beat us over the head as though the news is hot off the press. Thanks.

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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webmanco says on Jul 9, 2008, 06:59:

Toby

Heck, as I see it, it deos not even scratch the surface for damge reparaitons for all the narco dollar-problems that our addiction has helped fuel the insurgensts in Colombia, at a great cost to Colombian tax payers to fight against, not to mention bloodshed.

I wanted to hear from at least one of the just leased USA "cotractors" rescue by the Colombian army

Please countrymen and those consuming illegal drugs, let´s quit the use of ilegal sustances for our own health, for that of our relatives, for our country and for countries who unstability comes in part for the Ilegal drug trade.

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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El Polo says on Jul 9, 2008, 07:09:

LOL "cratch eyeball" they might grab you cacharas too, becarefull!

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TobyBoy says on Jul 9, 2008, 08:57:

Benjamin,

Nice to see another American patriot. …How original you are. For an attorney, you sure do NOT make any good arguments –though it’s cute to see you think you do.
Besides myself, most of the attorneys that work for me (for my international corporation) could run rings around you, not just in jurisprudence, but in oratory argument. I have been to Colombia, many times. In fact, I have lived in Colombia for several years, even when Colombia led in homicide rates. You and I were definitely raised and educated differently, and have forged different opinions, and we are both determined to stick with them. If you think that the US does not have serious crime issues as well, with gangs, mobs, political corruption, then once again, enjoy your life here. In the meantime, I will not respond to the rest of your silly diatribe in which you are trying to so poorly lure me to address. I am surprised such an important attorney as you see yourself, has such a trite writing style –devoid of any hint of eloquence or substance ...though I am sure you think you have it. I was really hoping that you would challenge me with some real and more up-to date facts about Colombia, but so far all I have seen are stale anachronistic arguments. I just wish we could compare notes 25 years from now. Anyway, sorry but I've got to go and prepare for a speech that I've been asked to give at the New York Society for Ethical Culture. Good luck to to you, I hope your arguments have more sticking-strength when you come up with the SalvaTruchas!

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kalder says on Jul 9, 2008, 09:28:

"Besides myself, most of the attorneys that work for me (for my international corporation) could run rings around you, not just in jurisprudence, but in oratory argument."

Love it!!!

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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nbenjamin says on Jul 9, 2008, 10:18:

Of course you wont address my arguments - it is not because you do not understand them - it is because I am right. Admit when you are wrong. Look, I again, am not saying the US is perfect - far from it - but you are comparing crime in the US to crime in Colombia - and you are wrong - sorry.

Second - your international corporation - BS. We all know it - you do not own an international corporation. I am an attorney, but only in my first year. How do I know you do not have an "international corporation?" First - a busy person who makes a lot of money gets paid for his time and therefore they would understand why it is not worth a lot of time to write something pretty and "eloquent." You do not seem to understand that.

Finally, you never lived in Colombia, you are full of it. You did not know what Tres Cruces was you did not know whether north or south of Medellin was dangerous you knew nothing, whether I said Las Vegas you never knew it was a neigborhood in Medellin - you lived there - give me a break. "international corporation" "lived in Colombia" speech at the giving a speech at the "NYSEC" come on - why do you lie. You know why I feel good - because I actually am an attorney, practicing in his first year, making a solid six figure salary - you know why you feel stupid - because you just lied - not just once but a million times -


You are the classic guy, lives in denver, spent a couple months in New York - and tell people you are from New York because Denver is not cool. You know how I know you are not from New York? Because you live in Denver - noone from New York would live in Denver.

But finally, and most importantly, you continue to demonstrate

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nbenjamin says on Jul 9, 2008, 10:22:

But finally, and most importantly, you continue to demonstrate that you lack knowledge regarding Colombia - everyone knows that it is more dangerous than the US. Sorry - just read how many people agreed with me - and how many people just dont agree with you. Keep lying mister international corporation.

But what I found most troubling is this "another american patriot."
Again i will point out - I have family in Colombia (I dont have to lie and say I lived there), I am purchasing a Finca in Rio (Do you know what Rio is, No Tobe's it is not in Brazil), I love my Country and My family there to death. Again, colombia is very close to my soul.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 9, 2008, 10:42:

Tom Tom - you hit the nail on the head. really it is a bad comparison.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 9, 2008, 10:54:

Boy, Benjamin, I’ve really got you riled-up!
First of all, I am form New York, born and raised. I would even walk to breakfast on many mornings (during summers) when I was a little boy, in the Yellow-Bird room at the Hotel Pierre (across from where I lived. As a young teen I spent a lot of time at Save the Robots late at night (places you have no clue about, nor most new-comers to NYC). Believe me, I am from New York, and I have written about it. …And do you think I care if someone like you believes me?

You are certainly right about one thing; ordinarily I would not have time for these blogs, and you will not see me for much longer, I really am a busy fellow actually. I just took a few days off recently, and I had monitored this forum for years, and I thought I would give it a shot, sparked by the hostage rescue. I am actually enjoying my blogs in French and German much more right now (and by the way, I have more than one computer so this is why I’ve been making typos, as I am often writing to various blogs and in several languages, often at the same time. Gee sorry).

Many people have moved to Denver, from LA and NY. Just do the research, Mr. Jr. Attorney. I moved to escape the corporate greed in NYC. I do not walk over the Jrs. of the world to get ahead, as many of my associates in New York did /do.

Anyway, I only have one final thing to say, some important FREE advice: Whenever you want to match wits with the big fellows, the real executives, the real power brokers, you should never let them see you sweat! …as you are currently doing. Stay in control, focused. …When you resort to personal attacks, you lose. …and you know why? -Because the people with the real power and money remain in control, whether you like it or not. Orthography becomes meaningless, in matters of importance, of substance; only real proofs, matter to the big fellows. Congratulations on your six-figure salary (and I am glad you think it is so big)! …you will need it if you ever need hospitalization in the US. Oh, and though my company is only registered in the USA, Brazil France and Colombia, I am still kind of proud about it, BUT I cannot talk salary, I was raised not to discuss such matters. While this may probably be my penultimate entry, I again wish you all the best. …and remember; stay in control!

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 10:55:

brothers.......... you're both wrong...i'm right, so put up your fists. mucha lucha here. if all of us--myself included--are so fuckin enlightened, why are we fighting.

it really makes no 'never-mind', where we live, or where we're from. you can get real fuckin dead anyplace.....and once you're real fuckin dead, what's next?

i think we can grow a whole lot more constructively and do something to help our respective worlds if we try to get along.

i've been, worked and travelled in a whole bunch of places and most of them, outside of europe, were, in reality, suck city. those kinda 'get dead real easy' places. those of us who have been to, are from, were born in or live in colombia..;.everyone of us knows why we love the place. it's because it's colombia. it's a crazy, wonderful place with a shit load of problems...it ain't gonna be the center of world finance in my life and like most greedy-run places, it aint gonna change, drastically, anytime soon. can't we just take her as she is and all of us work with her to her betterment and in the process better outselves? without fighting with each other. one of my teachers once told me, that oft times your best friend was previously, your enemy. let's give it a whirl.

patriarch

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nbenjamin says on Jul 9, 2008, 11:07:

Only registered in the US - hey doode - in the U.S. Corporations are registered in a States - not country. What State? My corporation is registered in the United States - right - by the way it cost 75 dollars to register a corporation - big deal. And as a matter of international atorneys what are they doing for you - why is your corp registered in four different countries? That makes no sense.

More evidence of your lies - doode now admits that he lives in Denver not New York - second lie exposed.

"dont talk about how much money you make" - come on doode just make up some ridiculous number - keep going with it - we all know you are lying.

Here I will play along I am a ceo of an internation corporation - only registered in 8 countries.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 9, 2008, 11:08:

Registered in "four countries" - you do need an international lawyer.

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nbenjamin says on Jul 9, 2008, 11:13:

four different computer - doode computers cost like 500 to 2000 dollars - come on bro - you are not even good at pretending you have money. You dont doode do you? You dont even own in Denver do you?

One things for sure a house in rio is more than one in Denver.

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TobyBoy says on Jul 9, 2008, 11:24:

Benjamin, how sad; you reamin riled up and you have lost control again

- I WIN !!!

...you are so predictable that I even felt compelled to mention that my previous post would be my "penultimate entry!" ..and I was right.

So, here is my final entry; and now you can have the final word. Your intellect and ego needs it more than I ...

See Ya!

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huskie says on Jul 9, 2008, 11:56:

Hey you all, just read this TOBYBOBO's posts and comments and you will find out who he really is...he has so many businesses, so much education, so much money...so much Crappola by Lola
Cheers

"Huskie; Many thanks for your comments. Do you intend to post anything constructive here? Are you ABLE to contribute ANYTHING?"an ignorant frenchman named Darloupoo

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 12:33:

brothers, i swear, i'm losing faith here. this is like a scrap in the sand box...over what? who said what?

who cares what?.

enow

common, maria, let's get outta here and go have a drink...i need one.

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 12:35:

yo, dear....is crappola somethin like cacalada..................?

patriarch

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webmanco says on Jul 9, 2008, 12:55:

Good match, it brings out memories of Caritadeangel

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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huskie says on Jul 9, 2008, 12:59:

Doug you mean La Cagada? Yes I am ready for a drink, lets go
Cheers

"Huskie; Many thanks for your comments. Do you intend to post anything constructive here? Are you ABLE to contribute ANYTHING?"an ignorant frenchman named Darloupoo

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 15:10:

i mean cacalada...when ya really gotta dump....................

patriarch

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webmanco says on Jul 9, 2008, 15:13:

..

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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briarblue says on Jul 9, 2008, 17:33:

Pass another bowl of popcorn, please!!!

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 18:05:

be informed pbh....that really aint butter..........................

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Jul 10, 2008, 06:23:

shame on you. i hate it...i go to the flicks with my youngest, buy a bag of pop corn about 7.00 bucks and a large coke, just under 5.00....then they ask would you like butter on that.

it's one thing to rape me, but to poison me in the bargain. gimme a break

patriarch

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webmanco says on Jul 10, 2008, 07:53:

La indiferencia muchas veces de la Iglesia

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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