What is it about this place?

gabolicious says on Jan 14, 2008, 11:22:

Kenbone:

"Does the beauty of this country and its lifestyle outweigh the inconvenience of being paranoid all the time?" that is something that you yourself will "decide".

I'd like to state that Colombia is not the United States... even though you want to settle down in another country bear in mind that you will find different things than the things you find in your country.

Regarding the reasons why PBHers are on this board, don't really know but most of us (I guess) is because we are either colombian or because are married to a colombiana or colombiano... don't know.

But what I definately do is to go to colombia and find out by myself what Colombia is all about.

Elección no canonización....

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kenbone says on Jan 14, 2008, 11:43:

Gabo,

I know Colombia is not the USA, which is specifically what I'm looking for in life. I spent 23 years living in Detroit and the next 12 owning, buying and rehabbing crack houses and apartments in the inner city of Phoenix. I'm no stranger to being put in precarious situations. I'm pretty numb to thugs, gangs and hoodlums. I understand in Colombia it's a whole new ball game. I can keep my mouth shut and live a low key lifestyle. I have a high level of street smarts and am very cognizant of my environment and the dangers in it. Does all of my past experiences make a different though? Is it just the naive and unaware that have major problems in Colombia? Am I wasting my time with this place and should I instead go to Argentina or maybe Ecuador? I know that last question can only be answered by myself. I don't know what it is but I just feel like Colombia had this silent magnetic force that keeps drawing me to it despite it's potentially dangerous environment.

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kalder says on Jan 14, 2008, 11:54:

I gather Colombia is wonderful place to live if you have a reasonable amount of money. If you don't, it's a struggle to say the least. Oh course, you could say that about anywhere- but, unlike the States or the UK, the opportunities to earn money or receive any species of financial assistance are rather limited.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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adrienne79 says on Jan 14, 2008, 12:09:

I live in Colombia because my husband is from here. He was living in Texas going to school and then working when I met him a couple of years ago. We decided it was better if we moved to Colombia to live for various reasons. I love it here and here in Bucaramanga I am not paranoid much at all. When I go to Bogota I am though. That city is way to big for a Texan girl like me. I do have some money in the bank in the US but I trying not to use it much. I will start working soon as a teacher.

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manINred says on Jan 14, 2008, 12:09:

let alone the fact that the social safety nets in Colombia (unlike the UK comparatively) leave a lot to be desired, and in some instances are nonexistance..

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Catfish35 says on Jan 14, 2008, 12:12:

Hey Kenbone,
Let me say that you are not alone. I have had the traveling bone since they had to put bells on me at 6 months when I started walking.
I too have done the Costa Rica thing and still go there, but only for the practice of my Kama Sutra and visit friends. I would not live there myself, like you, I too find it is lost to gringo mania.
I just returned from 15 days in Medellin. I have not been there since BPD (Before Pablo's death). I must say that many things have changed. The murder rate has drastically decreased obviously. The presence of a young police/military force is present but not overbearing. I am former law enforcement and found all the people in uniform friendly and approachable. Colombia under this current administration has taken steps to promote tourism. This is seen in the presence of ads, security, and benefits. For example, if you display your U.S. passport in certain places you can avoid paying the aprox.16% sales tax. I found many people did not know this.
While there for the first few days I stayed in the affluent El Poblado area. I had heard many bad things about this area on here and found most if not all to be false. It is what it is. This area is a section of Medellin where people have money for various reasons. Whether they are foreigners or natives, they are able to own nice houses and condos, and the stores are more upscale along with the restaurants.
I finally looked up a few old friends and toured the entire city. One different thing about Medellin to keep in mind is that the poorer barrios lay outside the city rather than most cities where it is mainly located center or about. I traveled to areas in the mountains and looked at some properties (fincas) that were for sale. Many of my travels were by myself. I am a tall blonde guy and look more gringo than a gringo can look. At no time did I ever feel scared or intimidated in or outside the city. I found Medellin surprisingly cleaner than before. The streets are clean and well paved.
They have a San Fransisco hilliness about them which can be intimidating at times, mostly in the hands of a young taxi driver.
I did look up a little diamond I met in Costa Rica a few years back that worked the gulch for sometime. She saved enough money and returned to Medellin. I ended up staying with her for the rest of my trip and doing the night life and other things. I have plans to return for 30 days or so with in the next few months.
Kenbone, I can tell you for sure that the crime stats have fallen significantly in Medellin. One thing that has not changed though is the people of Colombia. They are a proud, friendly people. They are full of passion about the things they love and unfortunately are victims of a bad reputation and history. I do hear alot of slamming about them on here and about the girls. I just chock most of that up to stupidity and bitterness. I would urge you to go and give it a look see. The place is beautiful, the people are beautiful and trust me, you will not end up in someones soup for dinner.
Oh, and you mentioned about investing. I do not know what you have in mind but if it is a home or property I do not think you can lose. Hugo Chavez is a plus and minus for us there. I think as long as an administration in Colombia is friendly to the U.S. and the Mad Man keeps ranting and causing problems next door in Venezuela we will continue to sink money into Colombia. This is just an small opinion. Just remember, Americans have lived in Colombia a very very long time. I met two guys there that have been there one for 25 years and one for 38 years. Don't get sucked up into the fear factor!
Please let me know if I can help you any further.

CATFISH

"So many guns, and so few brains". sam spade

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Enrique187 says on Jan 14, 2008, 12:20:

good post catfish

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aztec says on Jan 14, 2008, 12:22:

Anyone who has lived and worked in inner city Detroit and inner city of Phoenix should have no fear of traveling in Colombia. You already have the requisite survival skills.

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Catfish35 says on Jan 14, 2008, 12:54:

Thanks Enrique, and yes touche' Aztec..Whats that area in Detroit, ah Woodford or something?
I agree, medellin is no detroit!

"So many guns, and so few brains". sam spade

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kenbone says on Jan 14, 2008, 13:13:

Hey catfish,

Thanks for the detailed response. I grew up right near 8 mile and woodward. It was a real shit hole but when I was 17 I was fortunate to move to the west side (livonia). I think what I'm probably going to do is enroll in a spanish school for about 6 months down there. That will give me a pretty good idea of whether or not it's a place for me. If it turns out to not be for me, all will not be lost since I will hopefully be somewhat fluent in Spanish by then.

I also agree with you on the whole Chavez perspective on Colombia. There's no way the USA will abandon it's position in Colombia. I just hope an enhanced presence by us doesn't lead to hostility or resentment towards Americans by the Colombian people.

Lancer,

I can deal with being robbed or mugged. Now being kidnapped or killed that's a different story. I'll try to pair up with you if I come down there so I can pull you in front of me if anyone points a gun a me. Seriously though, I sympathize with your desire to keep your paradise a secret. Don't worry about me though for I'm not your typical gringo. I dislike most of the things the Gringo represents. I'm all about enjoying life the simple way...I don't need much too be happy.

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Catfish35 says on Jan 14, 2008, 14:43:

It is funny that this sight has taken that approach Lancer. I do hope that for most on here that bash the colombian people it is because like you say. You want to keep things the way they are down there. I can seriously sympathize with you. I do think it will be a long time before colombia turns into a Costa Rica or Panama. Its unfortunately got alot of bad rep to overcome. Whenever I see someone on here use stuff like "they" "them" "those" or stuff like "half the population of Medellin are criminals" like I just saw in another post today I feel sad. Not so much for the Colombianos, but for those that are just ignorant. You are right 100% it is a paradise I hope nothing but the very best for Colombia and its people!
Quite honestly I felt safer in Medellin than I did in San Jose. Have you seen any of the news from of late? This past year two Gringos mysteriously took a swan dive from the penthouse of Del Rey.
Another murdered in El Presidente, and then the double homicide in Escazu involving a gulch girl!
Lordy lordy! Could it be that the girls are getting tired of the $50 propositions?
$100 is all they ask, my god how far would you get with $50 on Woodward in Detroit?
Not very!

"So many guns, and so few brains". sam spade

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Lcacique says on Jan 14, 2008, 15:04:

kenbone,

I agree with catfish. You'll find tons of people on this site that will fill your head with horror stories and it is important to realize that some of their fears are reasonable; however, what COULD happen to you in Colombia COULD happen to you anywhere. The best advice that I can give you is to go to Colombia and spend a good deal of time there if possible. Read some of the posts here to get an overview of some of the differing opinions of the country, but realize that they are nothing more than opinions (and some of the posters are lunatics).

As for your concern about Colombians and their animosity towards gringos for our governments involvement in the country, I too had the same concern when I spent time there. I was even told to tell everyone I was from Canada. I did not follow their advice and told everyone I was from Oregon, followed by the clarification that it was a state in the U.S. Everyone I spoke to knew very well that the government of a country is different from the citizenry and they were all very welcoming. I was not in Colombia to find a wife or to get laid, I went to be immersed in country that I love and to be surrounded by a culture that I find refreshing. I hope that your experience in Colombia will be as rewarding as mine...Best of luck!

p.s. I'll let some of the others tell you what to do and what to think...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Enrique187 says on Jan 14, 2008, 15:10:

Costa Rica and Panama don't have the FARC or narcotrafficking on Colombia's level though.

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kenbone says on Jan 14, 2008, 16:06:

Catfish,

The first week in San Jose I was walking across the street from the park that sits right next to the front of the holiday inn. I forget the park name. Anyways...Some Costa rican tried to rob another Tico. The victim pulled out a gun and shot at the robber. He missed the robber but popped some poor innocent bystander in the head. I couldn't believe I was seeing someone get shot in the head one week into my trip. I was literally standing 50 feet away. You're right about Downtown being a very shady place. I personally had no problem but I always felt there was a bit of an evil vibe there. The city itself is also a bit depressing. It kind of reminded me of a once glorious city that let itself go big time. I did take comfort in knowing if anyone messed with me there I would be able to beat the living shit out of them and not fear for my life after. In colombia I would be very nervous about the repercussions of defending myself.

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Enrique187 says on Jan 14, 2008, 16:16:

a fist is pretty worthless in Colombia. It's best to mind your own business there, not glare at strangers, etc because you never know who it could be. THen again, even in the US now, you could get in a fistfight with somebody and they could come back later with a gun.

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diabloblas says on Jan 14, 2008, 16:43:

kenbone...that's morazon park...i had 2 friends violently mugged from behind there....one of the guys was a tight end for stanford in the 70s...i doubt you're anywhere near a match for him;...& he was no match for them

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David Pristupa says on Jan 14, 2008, 18:47:

What's the point of living in the US if you
aren't happy? You are surrounded by monster trucks monster houses have to
pay medical bills rent car expenses etc.
My point is that all this stuff is putting a
fence between people. Your surrounded by
A bunch overpriced junk you can't afford
Yet you need in order to be part of society.
There comes a point when you say screw it and leave. The majority of the world lives in 'poverty'. At least live in a culture
where it isn't a stigma and people are happy with less. Life in the states is pretty bad these days compared to 20
or more years ago.

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john_stark says on Jan 14, 2008, 18:52:

I love it when guys compare the safety of Costa Rica to Colombia. The US Peace Corps has 79 workers in Costa Rica. How many in Colombia? None. They pulled out after several were kidnapped and they still won't go back there.

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Enrique187 says on Jan 14, 2008, 19:05:

Good point David although the upper class in COlombia I have found can be even more materialistic and shallow than their counterparts in the US.

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diabloblas says on Jan 14, 2008, 19:31:

i love to meet people living in 2nd, 3rd or emerging countries who constantly say that the states are the greatest country in the world

...but when asked why they don't live in the states they say it's too expensive

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Catfish35 says on Jan 14, 2008, 19:59:

John,
I agree with you and the peace corp. But with apples to aples lets compare the size and population to crime. Anyway, this bullshtuff about this constant fear in Colombia has got to be accurate.
The six Americans currently being held are NOT tourist. In the 1990 at the height of Kidnapping in Colombia out of 2000 documented kidnappings buy then all the active groups including cartels the number of documented americans kidnapped were 6. Now, I am sure that there were many not documented and settled thru various means, but let say 50 out of 2000 it still isn't alot considering the time. Enrique is right also, keep your nose out of stuff and be aware of your surroundings.
I still feel safer in Medellin than I do in San Jose. Now if you want to go escapading off in the jungle of Choco maybe you might want to think first. But yeah, San Jose to Medellin currently I'll take Med.

"So many guns, and so few brains". sam spade

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john_stark says on Jan 14, 2008, 21:39:

My daughter is in what is probably the worst spot in Costa Rica in rural Guanacaste up near the Nicaraguan border. She has been there a year and is apprehensive at times but so far so good. I don't think she would have lasted a year at a similar spot in Colombia.

As for Medellin and San Jose you may be right.

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David Pristupa says on Jan 15, 2008, 00:39:

6 years ago I talked with an unemployment counsellor. She
worked with immigrants. She
told me that she knew two
sisters. One returned to Colombia
because life in Canada was
too expensive and lacked meaning.
That was 6 years ago when
The situation in Colombia was
worse.
Doing capacity building work in the states I understand
why many immigrants would
want to go home. Problems at
home forced them to go
abroad. It is too expensive to
live in North America in a very
materilistic culture.
My point here is Anglo North
America isn't as great as it is
made out to be. People in so
called developing countries
get by day to day life goes
on. If you have medical bills
student loans there is no upward
mobility in the states. I
Would see no purpose in staying here.
The choice I would have to
make is which place would
I go to. It is a tough shock
to realize that you might
HAVE to leave the US or
Canada to improve your life.

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kenbone says on Jan 15, 2008, 10:13:

David,

My sentiments exactly!! I live ok here in the states. I'm debt free and live modestly. If I wanted to live like everyone else here in a nice neighborhood and all the material stuff that goes with it I'd be miserable. Why would I want to bust my ass working 60 hours a week so I could have that 50k car or the latest and greatest of all the attachments we as a society find ourselves chasing after. The thing that really sucks is because I choose this lifestyle the chances of me ever finding love in this country are slim. I've been married twice and with both woman it's all about the money. Why wouldn't I choose to move somewhere like Colombia buy a decent home for cash and enjoy life at a much cheaper rate. Not to mention if I meet a woman down there and keep her in her native country the expectations for money will most likely be less than the gringa's. She will probably be happy with a roof over her head and minimal spending cash. That's definitely not the case here. So I think your quality of life and chance for a better relationship are much better here. Bring that same girl you meet in another country back to the USA it's just a matter of time before the plaque of materialism sets in her bones. She'll then leave either to get half your money, citizenship or find a wealthier man. Do you think I'm a bit jaded! HA HA!

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gabolicious says on Jan 15, 2008, 11:48:

Hey Kenbone... so much has been said about "interesadas"... you know the kind of girl who is always after money... you can find true women in Colombia, but it is better not to show your "wallet" to ANY woman (be colombian, american, etc)

Elección no canonización....

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aztec says on Jan 15, 2008, 11:59:

kenbone, if you find a Colombian and bring her to the USA she may well adopt some of the some characteristics you don't like.

In my own case it happened. Luckily, she has assimilated only those better qualities of America without losing her unique Colombian essence.

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gabolicious says on Jan 15, 2008, 12:08:

Besides "She will probably be happy with a roof over her head and minimal spending cash" this is not necessarily true in Colombia nor in any other country you know that that depends on the person you have a relationship with...

Anyways my best wishes in your colombian adventure

Elección no canonización....

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tomtom33 says on Jan 15, 2008, 13:07:

If you have problems with the society into which you were born and acculturated, you will not find solace elsewhere.

Too many people talk about things that US society requires. In fact it does not require any of those things. There is no requirement that anyone spend beyond their means. Many people do, but that is on them. No society can make anyone feel anything. Look in the mirror. You have bought into things that may not be the best for you.

The fault, dear Brutus, is within you. You may be better off trying to learn to live in the society that you know.

Me? I love the US and its culture. I got along there very well, thank you. I wound up moving to Colombia because it is a new frontier. But it is damn hard to acculturate.

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elk says on Jan 15, 2008, 14:07:

I have lived in Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama and now Medellin, Colombia. I have driven seven times through Central America during the past 35 years. My first drive was to San Jose in 1973. Like you I was young and looking for the "greener pasture". I may have finally found it here in Medellin.

I don't personally find Medellin to be as dangerous as San Jose, Costa Rica or certain parts of Nicaragua or Honduras for that matter. That being said, I make an effort to avoid dangerous situations as I would in any large U.S. city. I have lived in Medellin for 18 months and I walk at any hour day or night without fear, but I avoid Central Medellin after dark. It all depends on the area of Medellin.

I find the people of Medellin friendly, warm and understanding of my culture. I think we need to remember that most Colombians have family or friends living in the U.S. and know more about the Gringo than you might think. I especially enjoy the Christmas season here in southern Medellin. Your never alone or lonely unless that happens to be your choice. I'm able to take a walk in the morning and have coffee with Colombian friends or share a drink and conversation in the evening .......and just people watch.

For some Colombia might not meet their expectations or desires, but for me Colombia is a great place to retire and I have done a lot of shopping. It's not perfect, but what place is?

Everyone needs to make their own personal decision after living a while in Colombia.

Happy hunting!

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aztec says on Jan 15, 2008, 14:13:

tomtom33 says on Tuesday January 15th, 2008 13:07:

"If you have problems with the society into which you were born and acculturated, you will not find solace elsewhere."

I firmly believe that statement. If you are unsatisfied now moving to another country will not help. You will just be unhappy with many more problems.

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diabloblas says on Jan 15, 2008, 15:48:

countries are like porno movies to me

...they are interesting for a while

..then i get bored with them

...then they're interesting again...

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kenbone says on Jan 15, 2008, 15:50:

Tom Tom and aztec,

I must respectfully disagree with both of you. I march to my own beat here in the USA and do not conform to very much to the USA way of life. I'm not unsatisfied with life but rather tired of living in a country where money trumps culture, family and most everything else. I have not bought into anything and choose to exclude myself from the American way of life. I'm smart enough to know that this is not the atmosphere for me to happily be living in. I'm also smart enough to know I need to try other ways of living that might be more suitable to me. If I had a group of friends I did not like should I just choose to try to live and get along with them. Or should I go out and try to find a new group of friends that's more suitable for me. Tom Tom the aforementioned analogy is the same as choosing to live in your own society or finding a new one. You make it sound like I have a problem for not embracing all the flaws in the USA. If I was to do as you say I might as well just stay here and never look for anything that might be a better fit for me. I think everyone is different and just because you feel that to be the way for you, it does not mean it's that way for everyone.

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kenbone says on Jan 15, 2008, 15:58:

Elk,

I love what you write:

"I find the people of Medellin friendly, warm and understanding of my culture. I think we need to remember that most Colombians have family or friends living in the U.S. and know more about the Gringo than you might think. I especially enjoy the Christmas season here in southern Medellin. Your never alone or lonely unless that happens to be your choice. I'm able to take a walk in the morning and have coffee with Colombian friends or share a drink and conversation in the evening .......and just people watch. "

That's exactly the atmosphere I'm look to live in. You sound like you are at peace with your life. The things you mentioned are all so very simple but so much more meaningful than the things I can find here at home. Guess what here I'm always alone and it's not because I choose to be this way. It just always works out that way. When I lived in San Jose, Costa Rica last year I met more friends in a couple of months than I had living in Arizona for the last 12 years. Why do you think that is? And I was happier than I had been for years. I was the same person in both places but my personality meshed much better in another culture.

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diabloblas says on Jan 15, 2008, 16:04:

most men lead lives of quiet desperation...henry david theroux?

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Enrique187 says on Jan 15, 2008, 16:05:

kenbone just be aware that there are plenty of materialistic people in Colombia too in Medellin, Bogota, etc. I've been around many there that are more obsessed with vanity, money, and status than people of affluent cities in the US. I definitely think though that if it's something you dislike you can avoid it more easily in Colombia.

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tomtom33 says on Jan 15, 2008, 16:19:

You needn't embrace any flaws. You do need to realize that there is no society without them.

Money in the US does not trump all else. It never has.

Please excuse me if I misunderstood. I regularly do.

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CatGirl says on Jan 15, 2008, 20:40:

Mmm Kenbone

"I live ok here in the states. I'm debt free and live modestly. If I wanted to live like everyone else here in a nice neighborhood and all the material stuff that goes with it I'd be miserable. Why would I want to bust my ass working 60 hours a week so I could have that 50k car or the latest and greatest of all the attachments we as a society find ourselves chasing after. The thing that really sucks is because I choose this lifestyle the chances of me ever finding love in this country are slim"

Ken - I am not Exactly Sure what you are looking for? But from what you are describing - you CAN live the way you want to live or you are living now in the USA - surrounded by people living the same way IN THE USA. Yes! There are places like this in the US. But there is one thing you might have a problems with
"Technology" -----one of those latest and greatest quick turnover attachments that MANY societies chase. In all parts of the world.
You seem to want to get away from this type of lifestyle too (or not?) - Maybe a country with minimal technology? More down to earth?
Either way, if you still want technology - all that you have described you can find in the USA. I have seen it! You will just have to look more. Good luck

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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