What Is Chavez Plan?

sloopskipper says on Mar 16, 2008, 15:32:

"Does he expect to unite all of South America in one great Bolivarian revolution with himself as chief. . . . ?"

Isn't that obvious? A new Gran Colombia [Colombia + Venezuela + Ecuador, + Bolivia(?) + Panamá, and maybe more], with him as Czar.

jonas says on Mar 16, 2008, 16:04:

sorry but I am not scared. Israel´s behavior scares me a lot more than this clown. And W had me worried a lot more than Hugo. Do you suggest the US needs somebody else to do the dirty job or do you think they wouldn´t be able to do it themselves? Why don´t you just go and kill him?

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

sloopskipper says on Mar 16, 2008, 16:18:

Tio Hugo suggests that Bushes have already attempted it. It is illegal for the US to try that, but . . . .

Atrevido says on Mar 16, 2008, 17:11:

Well jonas you may be in for a big surprise if you think Chavez is just a clown. Who is W? The US will never be touched by Venezuela´s weapons or need to do your "dirty job", it´s Colombia that´s at risk. As to me personally? no I´m not afiliated with an Israeli commando unit.

sloopskipper says on Mar 16, 2008, 18:47:

"W'" or "dubya" is George W. Bush.

Atrevido says on Mar 16, 2008, 18:49:

Ahh ok.

lampltr says on Mar 16, 2008, 18:57:

As Sloop stated his original agenda from day one is "Plan Colombia." The reuniting of all 3 into 1 major country but he was also focused on Panama, hmm. The picture before Rosevelt came along.

sloopskipper says on Mar 16, 2008, 19:18:

Gran Colombia (Spanish for Great Colombia) is a name used today for the Republic of Colombia of the period 1819-1831.

This short-lived republic in South America encompassed the territories of present-day Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador and Panama, as well as smaller parts of Costa Rica, Peru, Brazil and Guyana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Colombia
____________________________________________________________________________

I think was also New Granada, at one time, and was the beginning of the dream of Chávez's hero, Bolíver, to unite all of South America as Gran Colombia.

Panamá was part of Colombia until 1903.

Chavéz has been credited with funding striking, and rioting, students and labor unions in Panamá to destabilize the government, although relations between the Venezuela & Panamá, on the surface seem to be good.

There have been problems with the FARC, in the Darien (across the border from Choco) in recent weeks. They attacked a Panamanian patrol boat and 6 are now in prision here.

Atrevido says on Mar 16, 2008, 19:31:

What does President Bharrat Jagdeo have to say, has he joined the fold?

sloopskipper says on Mar 16, 2008, 19:33:

I've not seen his name. In fact I had to look it up to see who he was.

Lcacique says on Mar 16, 2008, 22:30:

Calm down Atrevido,

There is no way in hell that these countries will band together under one flag. Chavez is smoking crack if he thinks it possible. Personally, I'd love to see increased solidarity amongst the L.A. countries, but nothing like the Bolivarian dream.

If Chavez attacks Colombia you can rest assured that the US would come to Colombia's aid and Colombia would probably need very little of it. The country has been central to our national interests for years, we haven't been training your army and building it up for nothing. This history goes back to before you were born and as long as there is a friendly leader in office and a sea of lefties surrounding Colombia, the US will be interested in supporting Colombia. What you need to worry about is Venezuela becoming a democracy again. That might be catastrophic for Colombia in the sense that the US might cut aid even further...ironic.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

webmanco says on Mar 17, 2008, 01:55:

I would like too, to have more "brotherness" with neigboor countries, and would like Colombia and Panama to learn from pass intromissions.

Lease Canal de Pánama, y movimiento independentista apoyado desde Norteamérica..

Chavez obviously it is not the solution.

http://www.monografias.com/trabajos55/tension-fronteras-colombianas/te...

El episodio más destacado en la historia de Colombia y sus relaciones fronterizas, indudablemente es la pérdida de Panamá. Al comenzar el siglo XX Colombia perdió un importante territorio que les permitió a los Estados Unidos de América alcanzar sus metas económicas y el control militar de la región para mantenerse como la primera potencia mundial. El Canal de Panamá se construyó después de la abrupta separación mediante un movimiento independentista apoyado desde Norteamérica. Si se consideran los planes regionales e iniciativas económicas y comerciales que los Estados Unidos han puesto en marcha en Latinoamérica durante el siglo XX y comienzos de XXI, será fácil entender claramente los nuevos enfoques de la geopolítica, cuya práctica ya no está orientada a la usurpación de territorios sino a la conquista de mercados y a la obtención de recursos que aseguren la supervivencia.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

billyb says on Mar 17, 2008, 06:17:

Gobierno argentino se distanciaría del venezolano

El diario La Nación de Argentina publicó este domingo una información que dice que el gobierno de Cristina Kirchner está pensando en la posibilidad de distanciarse del presidente venezolano, Hugo Chávez, tras conocer los archivos del computador del guerrillero ‘Raúl Reyes’ que lo involucran con las Farc.

De acuerdo con la versión de ese diario, Argentina “coordinará su postura con Brasil, Chile y México� para llevar a la OEA una postura común. Sin embargo, la presidenta Kirchner tiene bien claro que “las relaciones comerciales y económicas de la Argentina con Chávez son inamovibles, de necesidad mutua: energía y financiamiento por alimentos".

sloopskipper says on Mar 17, 2008, 07:33:

It seems the wheels are coming off that wagon.

cali373 says on Mar 17, 2008, 14:12:

You forgot to ask, what is the meaning of life?

Smile if you are a thinker!

cali373 says on Mar 17, 2008, 14:17:

Lcacique, What makes you think that Venezuela is less a democracy than Colombia. Simply because we dont like the person that won 3 elections for two terms?

Is the U.S. less of a democracy due to the irregularities of the last two elections and the fact that we have wacko in the Whitehouse?

Smile if you are a thinker!

sloopskipper says on Mar 17, 2008, 16:39:

cali373, Irregularities? How about fraud and a totally fraudulent voting system that now permits super-delegates to override the public vote in primaries?

GWB LOST his first election!

sloopskipper says on Mar 17, 2008, 16:46:

Of course, by the popular vote.

sloopskipper says on Mar 17, 2008, 16:46:

The PEOPLE's vote.

sloopskipper says on Mar 17, 2008, 16:47:

jaja, I am answering my own posts, how stupid.

Lcacique says on Mar 17, 2008, 16:48:

Cali373: You're absolutely right, my mistake. Excuse me for using the term democracy, I was utilizing US rhetoric. What I should have said is, "a government that caters to US interests," which does not have anything to do with whether or not it is a democracy.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Dolfi says on Mar 18, 2008, 01:54:

As far as I see Chavez is trying to weaken US influence (and influence of american dominated international institutions like the Worldbank and the IMF) on the continent. In order to do this he is trying to convince the nations to cooperate more among themselves and to coordinate their policies. Not a bad idea at all.

aztec says on Mar 18, 2008, 06:13:

"Not a bad idea at all." Dolfi

BS!

Lcacique says on Mar 18, 2008, 09:33:

aztec: Why are you against increased cooperation b/w Latin American countries?

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

aztec says on Mar 18, 2008, 13:12:

I am all for that. To me it appeared you were advocating "weaken US influence".

Lcacique says on Mar 18, 2008, 16:28:

aztec: Doesn't "influence" sound bad? If the US has Latin America's best interests in mind, I am all about a relationship between the two. I profess I have doubts about the US government's intentions in the region; therefore, a stronger Latin America (as a result of increased cooperation amongst Latin american countries) might have more bargaining power.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Atrevido says on Mar 18, 2008, 17:15:

But you evidently have no doubts about Hugo Chavez intentions in the region. Colombians do and they think increased cooperation amongst Latin american countries begins with capturing or at least kicking out illegal armed groups that kill and kidnap your law abiding citizens.

billyb says on Mar 18, 2008, 17:31:

Agree 100% Atrevido. How can you even begin to talk about regional cooperation, when the one that wants to be the head of that regional block is trying to overthrow democratically elected governaments using terrorists as his proxies.

poco says on Mar 18, 2008, 18:32:

Quote: How can you even beging to talk about regional cooperation, when the one that wants to be the head of that regional block is trying to overthrow democratically elected governaments using terrorists as his proxies.

These neighbors also provide safe refuge for terrorists.

Must be difficult to watch your neighbor throw a tantrum when you shoot someone in his yard? Maybe Colombia should have made it clear they would reforest the area.

Seven Emirates formed the UAE (United Arab Emirates) alliance in 1971,, not that long ago. Fifty years prior the area was primarily trading and fishing.

In a few short years Dubai has become the financial hub of the Middle East and will soon surpass England in size. From what I’ve seen they might become the financial capital of the entire European area.

Dubai is the number 1 tourism area in the Middle East, many 6 star hotels and the only 7 star in the world; some of the finest golf courses in the world, 400 of the fortune 500 companies have offices in Dubai. They have added hundreds of miles of beach front. Construction projects surpass almost anything in the world. the tallest building in the world will be finished,, what? next year? Not just a little taller,, a LOT taller.
Construction photos, Burj Dubai, facts: http://www.burjdubai.com/

There are MANY examples where countries have moved into the modern age or maintained their countries freedom due to U.S. HELP (interference?) These countries have created opportunities and a better life for their citizens.

I think there are many countries that would BEG for the US to interfere,, yep,, PLEASE, come and interfere with this hell hole of a place,, PRETTY PLEASE.

Sad that that many South American countries still can't determine how to provide opportunity and security for their citizens and have trouble mustering an economic addenda with more power than a popcorn fart.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Lcacique says on Mar 18, 2008, 18:46:

Atrevido, what a perfect name. Where do you get that idea? I haven't said anything about the intentions of Chavez in the region, so I have no idea how you're arriving at your conclusions. I am not a supporter of Chavez; however, I am completely aware that the image I have of him is shaped by a biased press/government. That does not mean that he is not evil, corrupt, etc. I simply do not feel that it is my place to make judgements about him when I really do not have anything substantial to base my opinions on. I have never been to Venezuela. I have only talked to a handful of Venezuelan's that have lived under his rule. Do I think he is a poor leader? Probably. Was he involved in funding the FARC? It would not surprise me. Is that deplorable? Yes.

Speaking about my country, the US, is easier. I have studied several years worth of material with respect to US/LA relations. It has been proven that the US has been known to support terrorism (that does not condone the purported actions of Chavez). And economic policies often have had negative consequences for Latin America. Therefore, I always have reservations about US intentions in the region.

billyb: Let's see...maybe, just maybe, countries other than Venezuela can talk about cooperation. Maybe through increased diplomacy and cooperation amongst the other LA countries, Chavez will be further marginalized. And by the way, no matter how long Chavez is in power, he'll have an extremely hard time catching up to the US in the department of overthrowing democratically elected governments (and I highly doubt he will ever have any success).

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

billyb says on Mar 18, 2008, 18:59:

Maybe, just maybe, there's an easter bunny also.

poco says on Mar 18, 2008, 20:09:

Quote: Maybe, just maybe, there's an easter bunny also

Lets see,, North/South Korea

South: Manufacturing - High tech industries - Economy projected to exceed France.
North: Starvation - Massive human rights violations - What economy?

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Lcacique says on Mar 18, 2008, 22:28:

So tell me billyb, what do you suggest?

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

el torcido says on Mar 18, 2008, 22:43:

I've read on this BPH site for about 3 months, and it appears that billyb has answers for almost anything under the sun..or, over the sun. He likely has sunspots.

don't know much about 'conomy

billyb says on Mar 18, 2008, 22:51:

Cooperate with countries that have moderate leaders that are concentrating on bettering their countries through social reform and free trade and not ignoring their people's needs because they are spending their country's treasuries trying to forge an unholly alliance of failed states united by a discredited economic and political ideology and trying to undermine, through the use of terrorist proxies, democratically elected governaments that don't kowtow to their beliefs. Just because Colombia lives in the same neighborhood, doesn't mean we have to like or pretend we are "brothers" with Venezuela, Ecuador, Nicaragua..... We should concentrate on strenghtening our already good diplomatic and commercial relations with like minded nations like Chile, Peru, Brazil, Mexico, most of Central America and hopefully Argentina, now that Christina is starting to distance Argentina way from the more radical poitions of Chavez. Cacique, what do you suggest? That we pretend our enemies are our brothers?

el torcido says on Mar 18, 2008, 22:54:

See there? Now, that's the type of hype I like.

don't know much about 'conomy

Lcacique says on Mar 18, 2008, 23:52:

Colombia doesn't use terrorism? Granted, maybe not against Venezuela, but how about against its own people? Last I checked they were finally making a halfhearted effort to lock up paras and government officials guilty of collusion. Halfhearted because most paras (despite the fact that they were guilty of roughly 80% of the human rights violations in the country) were simply allowed to demobilize and reintegrate into society. There's a great gesture that you are against terrorism. And of course the paras receive more financial aid to reintegrate than the over 3 million internally displaced citizens in the country. Colombia has a rich history of using state terror despite the fact that it has been a democracy for many years.

If capitalism was so wonderful as you suggest, LA wouldn't swing back and forth between the left and the right. Yet people in the region seem to get disillusioned, voting left-leaning leaders into power quite often.

There are wackos on the right and left as far as political ideology is concerned; nevertheless, the most brutal have came from the right in LA. That is not meant to be an excuse for leftist wack jobs, it is simply meant to clarify that the idology is not always to blame. Leaders on both sides rarely do what they say, and they rarely say what they mean.

If I had a choice to live in Colombia or Venezuela, I would easily choose Colombia. No contest.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Atrevido says on Mar 19, 2008, 05:08:

Poco I like your plan to reforest bombed out FARC camps (where ever they are). I´ll even donate.

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 06:20:

"If capitalism was so wonderful as you suggest"

What do you suggest as an alternative? Socialism? That has worked out real well for the Cuba, the former Soviet Union, North Korea..........Or do you like the new "21st century sicialism", like Chavez espouses? That's a brilliant model, you take a country drowning in $100 a barrell oil and manage not to be able to feed them. Maybe you like indigenous socialism, ala Evo Morales? We'll overlook the fact that that is leading to the brakeup of the country. We are open to yoursuggestions, but nothing that you have written adresses the question of why Colombia should pretend that Nicaragua, Ecuador or Venezuela are our friends.

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 10:27:

Why has Cuba failed? Could have anything to do with the fact that it is a tiny island primarily with two resources that are already produced cheaply in other countries (including the US). Or, maybe the US embargo and political pressure on other countries to not deal w/ the island. I would say that Cuba's problems are a little more diverse and complex than just the fact that they have a socialist system. And I am noit in favor of a government playing such a heavy role in the economy.

Soviet Union. Hard to call them a socialist country. If you remember, workers were striking. If workers are the ones in control of the means of production, who in the hell are they striking aginst? Also, I believe there was an arms race, a long war in Afghanistan, and a loss of trading partners that may also have hurt the economy. By the way, I would never suggest that anyone should follow the model. However, holding it up as a pillar of the socialist system is far from realistic.

North Korea. Their leader is clinically insane.

The US is one of the "greatest countries" in the world with a diverse economy, still people are starving.

Colombia has a booming enconomy still people are starving. “The World Bank estimates that 65% of the population live below the poverty line and rural poverty is especially acute. The poverty rate for rural dwellers in Colombia is estimated at 80%, of which 42% is considered extreme.)
http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2005/lac/co.html

Myles Frechette, former US Ambassador to Colombia claims: Colombia is a highly stratified society; wealth and land are distributed very unequally. If you are born poor, you are likely to die poor." Later he emphasizes that Colombians pay very little taxes, of which the rural elite pay an extremely small portion. Tax evasion has been reduced, "but more needs to be done. This includes some redistribution of income in a country where distribution of wealth is amongst the MOST UNEQUAL, not only in the region, but on EARTH."
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/ PUB762.pdf

Frechette can hardly be described as a socialist. Nevertheless, he recognizes that despite the fact that Colombia has followed the instructions of the IMF and the World Bank, the division between the rich and the poor has grown making it one of the worst cases in the world.

Bolivia...was it stable under Hugo Banzer?

Nothing that I have written adresses the question of why Colombia should pretend that Nicaragua, Ecuador or Venezuela are its friends because I do not think that it is necessary. I only said that I'd like to see increased cooperation in the region; in fact, I argued that such an action amongst cooperative governments could marginalize Chavez even more (that does not seem like something you would want to do with a friend). But I do not consider Ecuador, Venezuela or Nicaragua to be enemies of Colombia. Their temporary leaders, to varying degrees, may be considered enemies but not the countries or their citizens.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 11:13:

"The US is one of the "greatest countries" in the world with a diverse economy, still people are starving."

If people are starving in the US, then it is because of their own specific situation. It is not a systemic problem here. There is no way that anybody that is willing to work would starve in the US and even those that aren't won't starve either, that is just a bunch of leftist crap. BTW, nice excuses for the failute of socialist countries, but you missed the one about the dog eating Castro's notes on the economy

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 12:08:

I'll take you to plenty of places in the US where people are working and starving, or at the very least they are severely malnourished. It has nothing to do with being left or right. Sure, it is just a question of willingness to work in the US. People are just lazy. If you work hard you can make it. That myth doesn't pan out for a lot of people.

My point about the failed socialist states that you mentioned is that there is/was a lot more at play than you admit. That does not mean that there are/were not systemic issues as well. I simply recognize that there are/were a variety of problems.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

sloopskipper says on Mar 19, 2008, 12:43:

"I'll take you to plenty of places in the US where people are working and starving"?

You have been plenty of places in the U.S. where people are working and STARVING? Where?

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 12:53:

Yes, name one. And these people using their wages for drugs or booze instead of food doesn't count. Like I said there are particular situations that have nothing to do with the system.

Robert Jorge says on Mar 19, 2008, 13:17:

I would like to know where people are starving in the US also. My guess is the rebuttal will be "Appalachia." I don't buy it.

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 13:21:

That is probably his rebuttal, but they're not starving there either. They might not be eating steak every night, but i bet everybody has access to a meal.

poco says on Mar 19, 2008, 13:43:

Quote: "I'll take you to plenty of places in the US where people are working and starving"?

There is only one way you can fail in the U.S.

A U.S. citizen needs to be LAZY and INCOMPETENT.

A chinese billionaire was on a program yesterday. His family was so poor that they gave away his two sisters,,, or,, maybe they sold them,, can't remember exactly.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 14:41:

I saw that one, he said that probably the motivaton that drove him to become rich was when his second sister was given away.

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 14:56:

"The number is astounding – the Census Bureau reports that in 2002, 34.6 million Americans were living in poverty. That’s 1.7 million more than in the year 2001. Within that figure are over 7 million families … families with children – young little ones who fall asleep with an empty stomach. It is hard to believe here in America, where we're desperately trying to get a handle on obesity, that there are literally millions of children who don’t have enough to eat."

"Now there are signs that the situation is improving – but even as our employment numbers rise, there are families struggling to put a balanced meal on their tables."

"The face of the hungry has changed over the last ten years. While many associate those who struggle with hunger as being unemployed Americans, the sad truth is that the number of the working poor has escalated in the last decade. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities here in Washington says that there are 43 million people in low-income families. That means millions of those lining up at soup kitchens, low-priced pantries, and other charitable organizations are men and women working anywhere from one to three jobs, raising children and under daily pressure to make ends meet.

They have been called “the new poor" in the pages of our newspapers’ editorial sections. I think of families like Danny and Shirley Palmer of rural Ohio, a state, like North Carolina, that has been devastated by thousands of job losses. Danny worked for a quarter of a century at a local power company until he was let go in November, 2002. After over a year of job searches, he obtained a union card as a pipefitter. He pays union dues, but has yet to be tapped for a job. He works now as a Wal-Mart employee, but with bills including a 343 dollar a month mortgage, their savings account is almost empty, and their frustration in not being able to find suitable employment is growing rapidly.

And our food banks are having a hard time finding food to feed these families. As America struggles in today’s economic hardships, financial donations have dropped off or corporations have scaled back on food donations. And, as recent numbers have shown, many times there are just too many people and not enough food.
In 2003, at least 23 million Americans stood in food lines. In any given week, it is estimated that 7 million people are served at emergency feeding sites around the country. The numbers in specific parts of our country are just as disheartening. In Western North Carolina, the Manna Food Bank says that 68,527 people seek food assistance during the year with 20,657 seeking assistance each week. This means many of the same people are coming back again and again."

http://dole.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Speeches.Detail&Speech_id=...

this is the first one that popped up, but I am sure you could find other government sites that talk about the same issues. Then again, maybe our government is being overrun by pinkos. This info was compiled by Senator Dole, she worked with Nixon and Reagan...probably a commie infiltrator.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 14:59:

Polls: Support for Chavez government falling

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Public support for President Hugo Chavez's government has significantly declined, according to two polls published on Tuesday.
Some 34% of Venezuelans surveyed said they support Chavez's government, down from a high of 67% in early 2005, to the lowest level in five years, a quarterly survey of 2,000 Venezuelans by Caracas pollster Datos found.

The poll was published by the Caracas-based newspaper El Nacional, which said it had a margin of error of 2.2 percentage points and was carried out last month in cities and towns representing 75% of Venezuela's population.

It was unclear who paid for the poll, or how the questionnaire was structured. Pollsters at Datos could not be reached for comment.

Another survey, by Venezuelan pollster Alfredo Keller, showed that 37% of Venezuelans questioned identified themselves as Chavez supporters in February, down from 50% in mid-2007.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: President Hugo Chavez | Venezuelans | Policy Research | El Universal | Datanalisis | Caracas-based | El Nacional | Luis Vicente Leon | Alfredo Keller
That poll, published Tuesday in the Caracas-based newspaper El Universal, surveyed 1,200 people and had a margin of error of 2.9 percentage points. Keller said nine businesses had funded the survey, but he declined to identify them and only released select parts of the questionnaire.

Chavez's government had no immediate response.

Polls have consistently shown that rampant crime is a major concern to Venezuelans. Double-digit inflation has also accelerated, and sporadic shortages of milk and other food products persist.

Mark Weisbrot, co-director of the Washington-based Center for Economic and Policy Research, was skeptical of the polls' results, citing Chavez's longstanding popularity and the growth of the country's oil-rich economy.

"Obviously, Chavez has been affected by these food shortages," said Weisbrot, who has supported Chavez's policies.

Another Venezuelan pollster, Luis Vicente Leon, director of the public opinion firm Datanalisis, said his own recent polling suggests that after a decline at the end of 2007, Chavez's popularity has stabilized "at levels that are still high."

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 15:01:

Cacique, whre in that article does it say anything about "starving"?, Or are you backing off your original claim and moving the goal posts back a bit?


"That means millions of those lining up at soup kitchens, low-priced pantries, and other charitable organizations are men and women working anywhere from one to three jobs, raising children and under daily pressure to make ends meet."

Doesn't this mean that they are being fed? Maybe not steak, but seems like your own article proves you wrong.

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 16:00:

"...that there are literally millions of children who don’t have enough to eat."

So, if a child puts some piece of food in their mouth at some point during the day, they are not starving. For me, if a person is severely underfed, that is easily classifiable as a form of starvation. The article also stresses that the soup kitchens and other charitable organizations do not have enough food to meet the needs of the people that are utilizing such entities. What about the people that are unable to access such organizations because both parents work or others that do not live near such outlets? What about the people that quit going because they have been turned away and they do not have time to stand in line (i.e. they need to work)? Have you ever stood in a food line? Have you ever seen what they receive?

As for the article proving me wrong, why then does Senator Dole present the issue of people going hungry as a serious problem? So, you think people working anywhere from one to THREE jobs and still having to stand in line for food that may or may not be available is a sign that everything is working just beautifully. Sorry, I'm not quite with you.

Blaming the phenomena on drugs and laziness is a joke.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 17:16:

So show us the pics of puffy bellies and bulging eyes that are the telltale signs of starvation in children. Dude, you are all over the map here. Try to contain your hate and put up some proof of the mass starvation you originally claimed, which is what we are questioning, not that some people have tough conomic times. If you can't then admit that you can't and move on to your next rant.

Alma del Norte says on Mar 19, 2008, 17:22:

BB - "Cooperate with countries that have moderate leaders that are concentrating on bettering their countries through social reform and free trade and not ignoring their people's needs because they are spending their country's treasuries trying to forge an unholly alliance of failed states united by a discredited economic and political ideology and trying to undermine, through the use of terrorist proxies, democratically elected governaments that don't kowtow to their beliefs. Just because Colombia lives in the same neighborhood, doesn't mean we have to like or pretend we are "brothers" with Venezuela, Ecuador, Nicaragua....."

Ecuador is providing housing and medical facilities for more than 80,000 of your countrymen, the vast majority displaced by you know who, whilst you live off the fat of the land. No pangs? - Just curious.

Sorry my quote was longer than my comment.

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 18:06:

Show me pictures of Venezuelans with puffy bellies and bulging eyes...If you can't, move on to your next rant. I believe you were the one to bring the issue of starvation up, I supplied you with info. I do not have time to spend gathering evidence for you. If you do not believe that hunger is an issue in the US for some working people, that is your issue. I am not arguing that hunger in the US compares to hunger in S. Asia, for example, however it exists here as well.

There are obviously varying degrees of starvation (and I believe I was clear when I said that if not starving, they were severely under nourished in my original reponse). By the definition that you imply, as long as somebody gets some food occasionally, no matter the portion, then they are not starving. That is an interesting definition.

Contain my hate? Where in the hell have I said anything that could be interpreted as hate? The fact that I point out some issues pertaining to US problems, does not mean that I hate the US. You, on the other hand, certainly come off as someone that thinks that hate is a useful tool.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 18:15:

No pangs at all Alma, but thanks for asking. BTW, a little presumtious of you to pretend to know what I live off, not that I care.

billyb says on Mar 19, 2008, 18:21:

"and I believe I was clear when I said that if not starving, they were severely under nourished in my original reponse"

you modified it in your response as you have modified your definition of starvation when you realized how ridiculous you sounded, but it was not part of your original statement. But enough of this, i'm starting to bore, feel free to move on to your next anti US rant.

Alma del Norte says on Mar 19, 2008, 18:33:

Sorry to be presumptious, but you do live in California. I'll be presumptious in saying you were not displaced, you do not come from the poorest 80% of Colombian society, you did not seek asylum, and I may be wrong, (out on a limb actually), but I thought there was mention of a ranch? None of my business really, jaja ;)

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 18:35:

No son, my original response was as follows:

"I'll take you to plenty of places in the US where people are working and starving, or at the very least they are severely malnourished."

Refer back to it, it has not been modified or edited.

Rant? Who is ranting? You have yet to show me anything that resembles hate? You are the one throwing around accusations. You imply that it is much better to hate Ecuador, Venezuela, Nicaragua...etc. Where have I said anything hateful? Being critical is not hateful. I love the US. I think that it is a wonderful country. I feel lucky to have been born here. That does not stop me from thinking that it can improve.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Lcacique says on Mar 19, 2008, 19:26:

I shouldn't have said, "No son..."

That sounds condescending. I have no problem if you disagree with my point of view. That's fine. Nevertheless, I still would like to know where I said anything hateful. And as for ranting, I am just responding to your questions...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Alma del Norte says on Mar 19, 2008, 20:02:

"shouldn't have said, "No son..."

true, it was a bit patronising, but BB can take it.

billyb says on Mar 20, 2008, 06:30:

No worries, i don't offend easy. BTW Alma, you presumtions are accuarate ;)

sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 06:44:

Lcacique, you say nothing about involvement with this situation but, at least so far, have only talked about it. I found an informal relationship with http://www.centralpafoodbank.org/ very rewarding.

You have one in your area: http://www.oregonfoodbank.org/

Maybe you could learn more about what is happening in your own back yard.

Lcacique says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:13:

Thanks sloopskipper,

I'm quite aware of Oregon Food Bank since my family has been donating to them for years as well as volunteering and participating in food drives. Hopefully someone else will benefit from the links. Increased involvement with these groups is an excellent idea and I think it is great that you participate. There are a number of nonprofits and church organizations involved. I do not know how many people on here have actually participated in such activities, but that is where I personally learned about this issue, taking food to people in need.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:16:

GREAT! They are VERY worthwhile, and a wonderful resource for many people.

Lcacique says on Mar 20, 2008, 09:10:

I absolutely agree.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Lcacique says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:27:

Still would love to find out how I've been hateful or anti-US, for that matter.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Colombiche says on Mar 20, 2008, 21:18:

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)