what is Cali like?

michaelz says on Sep 1, 2005, 15:31:

answers 1. Cali is hot and humid, but not as hot and humid as Cartegena.

2. a. Yes, Cali has hot women. b. Depends...

3. If you prefer mulatos, you are better off in Cartegena. There are a lot more there than in Cali.

DayTripper says on Sep 1, 2005, 15:45:

Further questions to Michaelz Questions for Michaelz:
1. I heard in Cali at nights it is mostly cool. Is that true?
Also in winter in Cali is the tempreature a lot less than
in summer?
2. Are these "hot" women easy approchable?
If yes where can they be found.
3. Clear. No questions.
4. Can you walk around savely in Cali in the evening and at night?
I mean: not having to use taxis to go from one place to
another nearby place.
5. How to get reliable taxi's?

caslug says on Sep 1, 2005, 16:18:

answers 1. During the summer months, Cali is hot(only a little humid) around 90-100 degrees during the day, at night it is very pleasant. The malls in Cali are generally open air malls, so even hanging out at the mall you'll be sweating. No wonder there's TONS of ice cream shops in each malls! Personally I found the heat in Cali a little oppressive, but only because i dont live there and my body did not get acclimated. CTG was REALLY bad, had to take 3 showers a day!

2. I think if you're just passing through(under a week) then it's hard to meet random women on the street/malls. Not to say it can't be done, just you'll have to activitely pursue it(which most guys don't). BUT if you're staying for a longer bit(2 weeks or more) then you'll just meet them in course of your normal activities.

3. NA

4. Cali is a little more IFFY, even my local amigas told me they wouldn't walk 2 BLOCKS off of aveinda sexta after dark! My rule of thumb for safety at night is dont walk in areas with no lights or no people. unfortunately in many areas of cali at night this is the case. BUT as a guy, i had no problem walking those sames blocks. Normally, places that tourist would want/need to goto are safe, like malls or areas with bars/clubs/restaurants, etc. BUT the problem is during the weeknights, most of those areas(incl malls) close by 10pm.

5. Taxis are pretty reliable and cheap, i grab them of the street. However when i can i choose areas where there lots of taxis waiting, ie, malls, or businesses.

Note: I found traffic in Cali during evening rush hour fairly bad going from the north end to south end. I took me 50-60 minutes(11k peso) to go from Avienda Sexta to Unicentro, during the day without traffic it takes 25-30 minutes(7k peso). For a small city this is pretty bad IMO. I only expereince this is Bogota or Lima(cities with 8 million people).

michaelz says on Sep 1, 2005, 16:44:

daytrip caslug's comments were on the mainly on the money. I come from the northern USA so, for me, the nights in Cali were warm, but by no means oppressive. At night you can usually wear long pants, but in the day it is too hot for that.

Do not walk around alone at night unless you are with people and you are sure it is safe. I have been hasseled several times, and once, a kid pulled a knife and tried to rob me. Generally it is safe if you are careful, but don't be overconfident until you learn the city.

quindioman says on Sep 2, 2005, 01:51:

cali es una chimba!!
Cali is hot and humid...as much as Cartagena I wouldn't be able to tell you because I haven't been north of Zipaquira
Does Cali have hot women? Does Pinnochio have a wooden dick? Actually one does not know...Chepetto might have given him a plastic knob.
Cali's women are hotter than the days in Cali...they are my favourite brand of Colombiana (and that's coming from someone that's from Armenia)...if you can't find a girl in Cali then my friend....I feel sorry for you.
Yes Cali has a lot of mulattos...a lot of negroes as well and all colours on the opposite side of the spectrum to boot...listen bro Cali has everything that Cartagena has minus the beach, the old city and the pesky street vendors....enjoy ;-)

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 09:31:

Cali a) hot only during a few hours in the middle of the day, pleasantly warm in the mornings and late afternoons, warm in the evenings, cool just before daybreak. Humid? Nothing compared with the coast or forexample, Florida. I found the humidity very tolerable, even less than what I had expected.

b) not my cup of tea. The Caleñas have always had the reputation of being beautiful, gracious and friendly.

c)lots of people with African blood, but not predominantly black.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Crazy Eagle says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:10:

so Desi ... You prefer Calena women? Interesting ...

You also wrote "lots of people with African blood, but not predominantly black." Wazzat mean? Mostly mixed?

"The natural rhythmm of life is routine punctuated by orgy. " Aldous Huxley

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

Rubiazo says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:19:

hahah GREAT SIG Crazy Eagle I like your taste in literature!! You crazy existentialist you!!
Quindioman I have never been to Cali but everything I have read leads me to believe that although it is 'una chimba' it is also several degrees more dangerous than Bogotá. What do you think?

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:22:

yes, mostly mixed in general terms, darker than Medellín, less indigenous than Bogotá, whiter than Barranquilla or Cartagena. I don't "prefer" women from anywhere. I'm just reporting what's the consensus in Colombia regarding female attributes of the citizens.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

DayTripper says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:38:

OK good looking and hot, but then? I hear from everyone that the women in Cali look great and are hot.
But there is one thing that I am wondering about.
How easy is it to have sex with them and to have a GFE if you are a no so young Gringo and only staying for a few days in Cali?
I don't mind to pay, but I am not looking for hardcore hookers like in CTG.
Don't want to offend anyone (sorry if that happened), but I find most often paying makes things a lot less complicated.

caslug says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:39:

On problem with Cali.. is that the economic situation right now is not very good. Many of my amigas tell me that finding DECENT work in Cali is a challenge. Cali is a small city with limited economic prospects beyond agriculture. It has no tourism(ie, CTG) or is a little diversied like Medellin(fashion/flowers) or Bogota(financial capital of COL). Also, since the govt dismantle the last big drug cartel in Cali a few years ago, it doesnt get that much "laundered" money anymore.
Heck and entire drug store chain in Cali was confiscated by the policia a few years ago, because it was founded to be own by cartels!

It seems like Medellin, Bogota, CTG and BAQ are benefiting from COL recent economic growth, but Cali got left behind.

caslug says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:46:

daytripper..if you're willing to pay.. then the chicas are willing to play! LOL!

But seriously, while i found it easy to MET girls. You still have to put in the SAME(more or less) amount of work JUST LIKE THE US! Which means 3 to 4 dates(on average) before you get to where you want. So if you only got a 2 days, then it's hard(not impossible). You'll have to be lucky AND proactive, more than normal.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:52:

caslug, you say Cali is a small city? I beg to difer. A city of 2 million population cannot be classified as a small city. Cali has a lot of industry right outside of the city (Yumbo), the Valle del Cauca has the greatest number of towns in all Colombia and even if Cali is still recovering from the dismantle of the cartels and has been largely ignored by the central government it still is the third (in some statistics) the second largest city in Colombia.

Cheers,
Desi

(Daytripper, may I suggest that you go somewhere else. Cali will not be your kind of town)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

DayTripper says on Sep 2, 2005, 12:57:

Caslug........JUST LIKE THE US!!!!???? :-( Caslug........JUST LIKE THE US!!!!???? You scare me.
I am not going whole way to Cali to meet women "just like the US".
For a short holiday 3 to 4 days of dating is a lot of time.
And then, suppose you get lucky after 4 days.
Does the woman expect more of you???
Like ehehehehhhh.... having a relation??? "Just like in the US" ???
I am not the relation kind of person. I am very afraid of relations.
That is why I prefer to pay. Paying makes things clear.
I don't want to disapoint a woman who, after dating and sex, expects a relation with me.

(Desideria, I don't think everybody will agree with you)

Rubiazo says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:03:

Daytripper Cali IS your kind of town, but if you want that kind of info, go to worldsexguide.info-- too much has already been posted there on the subject, no need to repeat it here.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:11:

I know that everybody is not going to agree with me that isn't going to stop me saying my meaning anyway. Cali'll be much better off without gringos like you going there. There are a lot of people there working very hard to overcome the social and economical doldrums the city is facing and you are doing nothing to help.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Crazy4Cali says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:25:

Come on, just say it.... If you want hookers, why can't you just ask:

"where are the hookers?" (like you said. "keep everything clear")

But if that's all you're looking for, there are cheaper places to travel than Colombia. Do some homework. But the shopping for sex topics are (rightly) discouraged on this board.

So don't expect this thread to linger on the board much longer.

nanis says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:37:

Cali es cali lo de mas es loma! Cali is the best! hot weather, hot clubs, hot people because not only the women are hot! no no no!!! the men are yummy too! the women in cali as not as easy as you may think tho!

but if you are only going to stay there for 3 or 4 days then
why not go to pereira i hear girls there are death??? who know's why?

caslug says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:39:

you got that right desi.. "Cali is still recovering from the dismantle of the cartels and has been largely ignored by the central government it"

For some reason i didn't see as many police presence in Cali as I saw in Medellin or even Pereria. I saw about 20 policia patroling Pereria Plaza de Boliver a small area, in a MUCH bigger Plaza de Boliver in Cali, i barely saw 5 policia. I was talking with a doctor fr Medellin, he told me the biggest reason that Medellin is climbing back up is because the security situation is very good now. He said, the city has lots of policia presences now, and when security situation improves, business feel more comfortable to invest and expand(hence creating jobs).

Unfortunately for Cali now, they dont SEEM to have the politic power to get the govt to increase security funding. I remember last year when i visit cali, the hotel i was staying at DID NOT lock the door during the DAY. But this trip, i remember they locked it during the day. Couple of stores that i used last year, went out of business this year.

caslug says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:47:

Daytripper, nothing in life is free.. so if you want to date reg gals, then you'll have to pony up with some emotional commimentment. I found guys(and gals) do one of three things,

a) go w/ the flow and say what they are feeling AT THE MOMENT!

b) be completely honest, "babe, i'm not looking for a GF, just a amiga especial"

c) LIED...

Obviously option a & c gets the best results, while option b gets the least...

Most foreign tourist guys i know do option a, while most EXPAT do option b, i didnt' met any that did option c.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:49:

thank you Mrs. Gomez! I do agree, Cali is Cali all the rest of it is just a mountain:) I also agree that the men are really yummy:), good-looking, easy-going, party-loving, all that and more. (I've heard that they are really easy too...)

Yes, maybe pereira would be your kind of town, who knows.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

DayTripper says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:53:

Caslug. I think you are right. Caslug. I think you are right and that it is like you say: "nothing in live is for free".
Thanks for your wise words.

Also everybody else: thanks for your input.

I do appreciate. DT

nanis says on Sep 2, 2005, 13:53:

HAHA oh shit sorry excuse my language but i've just read my last post and i don't know what i was thinking! "the women in pereira are death"! i meant deaf!! sorry girls i never meant to say that haha i don't know what is worst tho! to be called death or deaf

Rubiazo says on Sep 2, 2005, 14:20:

If Cali really is so economically depressed, maybe it needs to promote the chica thing internationally! Prostitution, despite what many may think, can do a lot of good economically for a city, especially if its a case of people from out of the country coming in to drop money there.
Think about it logically.
The gringo pervert gets to come down, fulfill his fantasies, thinks hes getting a great deal.
The girls get to make great money, much more than they would ever make on the local market. Even though the gringo walks away thinking he got the deal of his life, the girl walks away thinking she made out like a bank robber!
Since most prostitutes arent full of great financial sense, they dump that money right back on the market in a totally random fashion. Local merchants benefit across the board. Taxi drivers benefit. Avianca benefits.

Who is the loser in this scenario? The gringo´s home city state and country where they are too stupid to legalize prostitution and lose all that money every year! And the best part of this whole venture is that there is no infrastructure investment required, the wheels are already in place and turning. It´s just like free money without having to do anything for it!

tomtom33 says on Sep 2, 2005, 14:23:

Deaf? Now if they were blind, maybe I'd have a chance.

Desi, if you are looking for easy guys, you don't need to go to Cali. I'm not easy, but I can be had.

tomtom33 says on Sep 2, 2005, 14:25:

Rubi You convinced me.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 14:40:

tomtom I'm not looking, but I'll keep that in mind, just in case:)

Rubiazo, your logic is faulty. Prostitution is always associated with drugs and criminality. The city of Cali does not need to promote their "chicas", it needs to promote the commerce, the industry, the education. The "chicas" will do much better getting an education, getting a decent-paying job, building a family. Who's the loser when you associate sex with money? It's the women, always. The smart, beautiful daughters of the Cali families who should be getting ahead in life, not just selling themselves cheap. (Anything in this bracket is cheap).

You haven't convinced me; I'm not easy to convince.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

caslug says on Sep 2, 2005, 15:05:

great idea rubi! LOL! Maybe it could be amsterdam, where they have a redlight district. It's international famous for legalize drugs and prostitution, and it's not corrupting the dutch society and there's no crime problem in the redlight district. If they do it right, then the girls(and guys) will be educated and tested for STD plus have to register before working.

Cali can promote it like Vegas and even still the vegas line, "what happens in cali stays in cali!". Look at Vegas, it's a fastest growing city in the US and the economy is very healthy, and this is a city that has NO discernable industry beyond gaming and hosptiality. It doesn't even have natural resources(ie, oil, farming, etc.,) to draw upon. Cali is a good destintion because a) it's economy needs a boost, b) it's an international airport, c) it's business and hotels are under utilize.

Desi, usually once a business is out in the open and regulated, the criminal aspect gets severaly diminish. Look at Las Vegas, it used to be full on mobbed, but now it's all wall street, the mob got pushed out buy guys in nicers suits without never having fired a shot! LOL!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 15:20:

I see that you're enjoying yourself, caslug. Maybe the good folks of Cali don't want their city become the Las Vegas of Colombia. Have you ever thought of that? I guess not.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Crazy Eagle says on Sep 2, 2005, 15:59:

before Big Brother snuffs us out ... allow me to thank most of you for your helpful comments! Cali seems like another great place. My problem with Cartagena and Barranquilla are that they are too hot & humid. But ah, those mulattos ...

As for prostitution: yes, I think it should be legalized and regulated and taxed AND kept the hell out of my neighborhood. It's kind of like tobacco - there will always be a demand for it and a supply. But that doesn't mean its good for people.

I knew a girl from high school who became a high class coke-addict hooker. And man the lifestyle dammned near destroyed her. It even seemed to ruin her looks. Very sad. Its the last career I would recommend for anyone, but at least if it was legal it would be regulated and discussed openly.

"The natural rythmm of life is routine punctuated by orgy." Aldous Huxley

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 2, 2005, 16:11:

the moderator(s) seem to have gorn fishin'
I'm glad you agree with me crazy eagle that it's not a lifestyle that you'd recommend. I am in a definite minority here, and can appreciate some support (even partial). My problem is that I love Cali and its people too much.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

caslug says on Sep 2, 2005, 19:10:

Desi.. Cali ALREADY has casinos and house of ill repute, so it's not like anyone has to open more up. And those places are UNDER utilize, so they can definitely use a more customers. But this is all a intellectual excercise because we(the poster) have NO power to change the economic situation for Cali.

My econ side of me suspect cali, has too many people living in the city. These people moved here when the economy WAS GOOD, but now the economy is bad, they didn't leave. SO the city is supporting the same IF NOT more people with the same economic base. Unless the economic growth rises equal or faster than the population, the city runs the risk of sliding backward.

When was the last time you visit cali desi? If you haven't visited in a while, i think you maybe sadden about your city's economic misfortune. This in contrast to the vibrant economic situation in cities like Bogota, Medellin, CTG, even pereria.

cam0940 says on Sep 2, 2005, 20:09:

Underdog Very interesting pro-ho argument above, but I'm going to have to disagree. People sell sex when there's nothing else to sell, and in any large city there are people who aren't quite making ends meet. So it's going to be there.

But prostitution and even stripping trick by trick destroys the girl. In the end she loses her dignity, self respect, can't tell anyone what she does for a living, can't hold her head up like a productive citizen. Strippers and prostitutes are some of the most issued people you ever want to meet. That's why drug abuse, alcoholism, and suicide occur at higher rates among sex workers. But whores have dreams too, don't get me wrong. When she ages, and starts having trouble brining in the money, she's going to want a normal life. For a lot of these girls it's at 30 or younger. Problem is, she has no other marketable skills. So she ends up performing some menial task earning next to nothing and relying on government assistance. God forbid she has any kids, because whores' kids usually don't grow up to be President if you know what I mean. Now you have an element that is completely unproductive growing in your community. Ex-whores can't teach their kids how to be productive citizens, they end up being those little bad bastards that need spankings. And those bad bastards grow up and have more bad bastards. And then one day you notice their section of the city is growing toward YOUR section of the city.

Besides, you can't tax prostitution effectively because no one pays for services with a credit card except James Worthy. It's a cash business and would be even if it were legal. Any stripper or whore will tell you that the majority of their Johns are guys that are married or involved in relationships, and you don't want to have to camp out waiting for the mailman so you can intercept the credit card statement before wifey sees it. It's always going to be a predominantly cash business; now try telling a whore who just slept with 6 guys in the last 6 hours, that she has to hand over 20% to the government. Her response? "Get outta here with that, I already have a pimp!" So it's questionable if you get enough income tax revenue to even cover the cost of regulation.

The draw of the foreign dollar could provide stimulus. I'll give you that. You'll get some freaks that come to the city looking to buy love. Why you would pay good money to get down with a dirty, used up, passed around the horn, skank, God only knows. I don't shop at the Salvation Army, and along the same line I like my women as fresh as possible. But still, this is one case where I think the city of Cali would be better off without the international freaks coming to the city to spend a few dollars on prostitution. I doubt the overall influx of cash would be enough, even with an aggressive multiplier, to significantly impact the local economics.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 03:25:

already saddened I haven't been in Cali for two years now, but the economical decline was visible already at my last visit. Yes, I agree, there are too many people living in Cali. Cali grew a lot in the fifties and sixties during the period of rural lawlessness and marauding bands of asassins that plagued the north of the Valle province (La Violencia) when many campesinos pulled up the stakes and moved into the city for safety. Cali has also always had the reputation of being a welcoming city and for being trendy and a cool place to live. That was before.

That wave of new inhabitants have become true caleños with paisa roots and they do care about the city as much as the original caleños (raizales). In the last twenty years or so the population has increased again by a half million or so but the newcomers haven't become "caleños" yet. The decline of the city can be partially blamed on the lack of civismo that the newcomers have shown. This is the complain I've heard from many of our old Cali friends.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

quindioman says on Sep 3, 2005, 10:11:

rubiazo listen bro, I don't have much knowledge on Bogota. I personally have not stayed there more than 3 days and I have never ventured south of Bogota.
I do however know a couple of people that have been living in Bogota for a while and they won't sugar coat anything, there are areas they wouldn't venture into.
As far as Cali is concerned I wouldn't neccessarily say it's more dangerous, I certainly wouldn't venture into Siloe or Aguas Blancas at night but you could get approached by a couple of stick up kids walking down the road of an estrato 3 barrio.
As far as gun violence is concerned you have to be an unlucky mutha to be shot in Colombia. The people that are getting shot/assasinated have it coming their way whether it's right or wrong don't matter, bottom line is if you screwed someone up, don't be surprised to be filled with a few holes in the future, either that or you were at the wrong place at the wrong time (like my cousin who got shot a couple of times just cuz she was with her b/friend, he got filled with lead and so did anyone that happened to be within shooting range)
Feel like a mugging? You'll most probably have someone being opportunistic rather than an out and out mugger...so as the saying goes..no de papaya.
Put it this way Rubi, if you been to the WORST part of Bogota, then the worst part of Cali would not be much different (probably hotter and more humid)....poverty is a universal language.

nanis says on Sep 3, 2005, 10:26:

Mr. Quindioman i salute you! i couldn't put it better myself! having lived in Cali and raised in el retiro in aguablanca I know how it is people don't just get shot there no! the people that are in the cementery right now asked for it! most of my family is there and is sad to say that but it's the truth none of them did nothing good so they had it coming people there don't like to be messed about so don't give them papaya!

nanis says on Sep 3, 2005, 10:27:

stay the hell out of those places and don't mess with those people you'll be just fine ;)

CaryGrant says on Sep 3, 2005, 10:46:

I'm all in favour of prostitution being legalized - it would help get rid of pimps and violence. (Prostitution is legal in BC, Canada, where I live.)

That said, I agree with cam. Prostitution is a very socially undesirable 'job.' The women who become hookers generally have low self-esteem, have to lie to everyone about what they do, drug use is very common. Does Cali really want to cater to wealthy foreign men looking for cheap sex? Is that the kind of industry they want to build?

As for Vegas, sure it can be fun, but I wouldn't want it anywhere near me. Yes, most people who go there just have fun and go home. But that kind of environment attracts a lot of people with sadly misplaced values, people looking for something-for-nothing, or who mistake wealth and glitz for happiness and meaning.

And why the mods didn't delete DayTripper's account as soon as he revealed he wanted a sex tour, I don't know.

Gomezman5 says on Sep 3, 2005, 10:49:

Prostitution IS NOT always associated with drugs and criminality Desi, that statement is factully incorrect. And it is even more incorrect in Colombia than any country that I know of with the exception of Costa Rica.

Most prostitutes in Colombia, especially those that work in the bars, clubs and whiskerias (Bogota) are not drug users. They engage in prostitution as a means to support their families and make a future for either themselves or children. If they were not prostitution, they would have virtually NO chance at living at the same level that they live at while they are prosttitutes. Des., you know Colombia as well as anyone. That said, you also know that an uneducated young lady, liiving in a country where wages are very poor, would not have any where near the opportunities that she has, had she not been a prostitute. This point warrants no argument. You can argue the merits or lack there of, of prostitution until the "cows come home", but you cannot argue the gains that one makes a result of engaging in it.

And, as far as your assertion that that it is related to criminality, what is "criminality"? Any given action or act is a crime, ONLY when a government entity says it is. No exceptions. The same action that is allowed in one place, may be prohibted in another. Prostitution is either completly legal or decriminalized and regualted (there is a difference) in most of the world. In fact, I know of few places in the world that enacts as many draconian laws prohibiting prostitution as much as the US does.

In this country, and I am certain the same is true in Europe and elsewhere, there are many women that are living a better quality of life, financialy and otherwise, because at some point in their past, were prostitutes. I personally know a woman in this country who being s single mother of two children, could have never paid for law school and supported her children, had she not engaged in the world's old prof.

CaryGrant says on Sep 3, 2005, 10:51:

Regarding violence, it doesn't only happen to those who 'deserve' it, although I found this view to be extremely common in the US, perhaps to justify a lack of action to make poor neighbourhoods safe. (And look at New Orleans now if you don't believe that.)

A friend's sister was murdered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thugs wanted the big man in the car she happened to be in - she had no connection with him other than being a minor government official who agreed to go with him to license his cars, or some-such. She and the driver got their throats slit. (This happened in a rural area, not in the city.)

quindioman says on Sep 3, 2005, 11:19:

CaryGrant You'll notice that I did state that you have to be an unlucky mutha to be shot in Colombia, the example I gave of my cousin goes to illustrate that.

I don't think that the view is there to justify a lack of action to make these neighbourhoods safe either. It's very simple really, in civilised countries if someone screws you up you call your lawyer/solicitor. In Colombia the lawyers are double barrels housing dum dums.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 11:22:

we'll never agree on this one, gomez I take a strict view on this issue. Prostitution is not legal in Scandinavia. However, the selling sex is not punishable; buying is. Two supreme court judges in this country were recently destituted because of they had been involved in buying sex. I believe, like most of the people up here that prostitution is related with criminality, even if it itself is not punishable. The Eastern European and Russian maffia has long been involved in the profitable business of luring young women from the impoverished South/East on false pretenses promising legal jobs in Scandinavia. While some of these young women may have been on the know what was waiting for them once they arrived many didn't.

I do not believe for one second that the Cali society wants to convert the city in one huge house of ill repute for national or international "customers". There are numerous rehabilitation programs for women involved in prostitution in Cali; yes, it's legal in the zonas de tolerancia and only there. Maybe the working girls in Colombia are not drug users by large; in Europe and in the US many are prostiting themselves to sustain their drug habit.

I have never met a woman who had a long, happy life in wealth and bliss having been prostituted in the younger years. That is a myth.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Rubiazo says on Sep 3, 2005, 11:40:

Desi maybe this will convince you Show me an example of ONE area where prostitution has been decriminalized where there is a higher rate of drug use than among the genera population. I guarantee you won´t find any. It doesn´t happen in Japan. It doesn´t happen in Australia. And believe it or not, it does NO T happen in Brazil. Brazil is a perfect example of legalized prostitution benefiting society at large. The girls there are healthy, and spend the money thye make on things like houses and cars, they are free of pimping, tested on a regular basis, and yes it is difficult work but it can pay off if you are smart. It is only in places like Canada the US and Europe that girls are burned out.
Even in these more progressive countries, we have a ways to go. Because legality is one issue, culture is another. If we got off our false moral high ground and recognized sex workers for being just that, and just another part of society, maybe they wouldnt have to hide what they do.
When I was living in Toronto if somebody asked me what I did for a living, sometimes I would tell them I was on welfare, because it looked better than saying I was a professional musician! We need to stop thinking 'you can´t/shouldnt make money at THAT'.
The other thing you describe is not merely prostitution, it is HUMAN TRAFFICKING and it is a whole separate issue. I would never argue in favor of human trafficking and I highly doubt anybody else on the board would either. You are talking about people forced to do something AGAINST their will rather than those who have entered into it freely. HUGE difference.
And yes indeed, I do personally know several ex-prostitutes who saved up their cash, bought a house, invested wisely and now are independently wealthy and no longer have to work for the rest of their lives. One particular girl moved back to Puerto Rico and is living in style out in the sticks somewhere. We really didnt want to see her go from NYC :P So sorry to say it is far from being a myth.
BTW prostitution is NOT LEGAL in Las Vegas. It is the only Nevada county that does not allow it.
Also in general, prostitution is NOT legal anywhere in Canada. The only form of prostitution that is legalized is outcall, which is the WORST kind of prostitution because it entails huge safety risks for the provider AND the client. I wouldnt open my door for a stranger, why would I make exception for a sex worker?

Rubiazo says on Sep 3, 2005, 11:42:

CrazyEagle I´d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the COCAINE is ruining your friend´s looks much more than the sex for money ever could.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 11:51:

I don't have any statistics but I know that in certain cities in Europe (Amesterdam, for example) where prostitution is legal in certain areas there's also a huge drug problem. Tallinn in Estonia and St. Petersburg in Russia are both hotbeds for prostitution, drugs and criminality in general. (I'm only commenting on places that are near enough and come up in the media here often enough to have an idea what is going on there). The ambience that favors prostitution is also favorable for drugs and trafficking, paedophilia, porn and other types of criminal activity. The maffias are involved and lots of violence and untimely death occur.

Would you, Rubiazo, recommend prostitution as a career choice for your daughter? (If you had any).

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Gomezman5 says on Sep 3, 2005, 11:58:

Des There is a factual inconsistency in your initial statement. If an activity is not legal, than if one were to engage in that activity one could be punished for doing so. I know of no law any where in the world that prohibts an activity/action, and at the same time does not proscribe a potential penalty for engaging in that action. You said "Buying is." Sooo....buying what??? At a minimum what you wrote is confusing. Prostitution comes three different ways. ILLEGAL; where the activity is completly prohibited, DECRIMINALIZED: where the action permitted albeit regulated in some manner (licensing, medical check-ups, etc),Las Vegas typifies this scenario, or LEGALIZED: Where the activity is neither criminal nor a crime and is not subject to any form of regulation by any government entity. Costa Rica is the best example of a place of this nature.

You Eastern european example is an extreme example of how abuse can occur. To imply that this is the norm is ridiculous. You don't prohibit an activity altogether because abuses occur. If we follow that logic, we would have to outlaw liquor because of all of the people who get into accidents while driving drunk.

Colombia, as a country has so much prostitution, that to even imply in any way that it is anything short of a completely legal activity, is a joke. May I suggest you walk onto the Caracas in Bogota or in the central area. Whiskerias are all over the place. In fact, if you can't find one, all you have to do is stop a police officer and asking where one is and he will be glad to tell you where one is. If you tip him, I know he will take you there. That is a fact in at least one instance I know of. My friend who works for a major Illinois soybean company told me as much. So, don't think for a minute that it is merely tolerated. With all due respects Desi my friend, that is a bunch of borscht!

And as to your assertion that you never met a friend that had a long happy life after being a prosttitute, my only response is how many friend do you have that are/were prostitutes?? I would submit, you don't have too many such friends. Anyone who has the disdain for prostitution to the extent that you do, would hardly keep too many prostitutes as friends.
Right?????

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:15:

no inconsistency here gomez. The Swedish law does not allow prostitution. However, it does not penalize the women (or men) that offer their "professional" services. It only penalizes the buyers. There's no inconsistence in it, it's crystal-clear. If you are a hooker and are trying to practice your trade on the streets of Stockholm you don't have so much success because the person who approaches you to buy your services can be apprehended and punished for illegal activities. This law is very fair based on that most prostitutes in this country are "guest workers" and many controlled by East maffias.

I don't have a disdain for anybody. I don't approve of prostitution, that's all. It goes agains everything I have been taught about respecting your body, being caring and sensitive in your interpersonal relationships, of not taking advantage of people who have have more problems thanmyself in making the ends meet. It's equally degrading for both men and women. It's not the sex part that bothers me in it; it's rather the commerce of human flesh, the whole idea that an act of love and intimacy can be reduced to a mere commercial transaction that is demeaning for both sexes.

That's all.

Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:15:

But G5 Any woman who would go to bed with a stranger for a fixed price obviously has undergone a moral breakdown. The last frontier of morality is our respect for ourselves and our own bodies. If you're willing to sell that, you have nothing else to sell. Bottom line.

Maybe you know of a few isolated cases where women were able to lift themselves out of this lifestyle. I too have encountered women who were morally bankrupt, but had enough vision to do something productive with their earnings. They are FAR and FEW between. If you had nothing left to sell to begin with, you probably don't have the mental capacity to put together and exit strategy from the business. So it becomes a career, not a stepping stone.

Let's not try to make it an acceptable means to and end, like a bartending gig in college to make ends meet. We're talking about selling one's self.

And you're right. Desi probably has far too much class to hang out with women who are so far gone as to sell it for plata.

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:20:

And by the way, The rates of drug and alcohol abuse among sex workers is FAR beyond that of the population as a whole. It is a spin on statistics to say that the population's rate of substance abuse is no higher where prostitution is "legal".

The drugs and alcohol are an escape from the reality that these women are living. Even a nymphomaniac who enjoys sex and chooses multiple partners still feels some human dignity because they haven't lost their freedom of choice. But a sex worker, she's trapped by economic necessity. The daily compromise of one's self breaks the human spirit. And she needs a release.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:40:

I'm still waiting Rubiazo's answer for my question.

Cam, I agree with you. Totally. And yes, you're right, right off the top of my head, no, I can't think of any woman that I know well that has been a prostitute.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Gomezman5 says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:49:

So Des.... You have what is commonly referred to as "reverse enforcement". This of course is a form of reverse logic which to me is very unconstitutional in the US. The prostitutie is home free, even though she was the person responsible for setting the wheels of the crime in motion and therefore enabling the man to proposition the woman and therefore comitt the crime. Can you name me (you can't) where two people are materially involved in the commission of a crime, and only one person get punished? In a drug transaction, does your country only arrest the purchaser and let the seller off the hook/ In a bank robbery, does the get away driver get punished and the man with the gun who robbed the teller get let go? In a fraud transaction, does the man who mailed the document that precipitated the fraud, engage in a crime and the man who filled out the paperwork that was material to the fraud get exonerated for his conduct.

In our country, we have something called accomplice liability,and conspriracy liability. This would be especially true in prostitution since it takes two people (always) to arrest a man for soliciting a prostitute. An undercover police person acting as either the customer or the prostitute will work. But, if prostitute is prevailing herself upon the public, announcing to the whole world that she is available to prostitute herself, does not logic dictate that that she share the same degree of culpability as the man who solicits her? Really!

Strange logic.

As to myself, I am a Libertarian in my own right. I am consistent in my logic as opposed to many women on this site that are not. I support a woman's right to choose when it comes to abortion. If a women should have the right to expell a life from her body, she should certainly have the right to sell her body if she so chooses as well. To deny her that right is to be contradictory and inconsistent in thought.

Also, explain the logic of this Desi: How is that something can be given away for free without the fear prosecution, becomes a crime once you go to sell it??? Can you give me explain that logic to me. Nobody in my life has been able to give me a coherent answer to that question

You can shelve your preconcieved notions as to what prostitution is like for everyone. You have no way of knowing what the life of all prostitutes is like. That is a certainty. Your dislike for prostitution in general renders you incapable of forming an objective opinion as to what the life of ALL prostitutes is like. May I suggest you consider another country for your alternate residence, because prostitution will never disappear in Colombia in your life time. Count on it

Hunter says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:51:

Des With your views and the views of the average person, any women who had been a prostitute in her earlier life, would not tell you, or other people of her previouse profesion, if she (or he) told anyone at all and would probably keep it a secret from EVERYONE.

Hunter

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 12:55:

In the U.S. In a drug transaction, the distributor and the purchaser are not punished equally. At least not in California. Oh sure they are both punished, and it also depends on the amount of narcotics involved. But generally speaking, California penalities are far more severe for the seller.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 13:02:

hunter, you're probably right about that. In a society where prostitution carries a social stigma they would probably keep it a secret from everybody.

I want to make it clear, however, that I am not condemning the poor, underpriviledged women in any struggling society for to have chosen this particular avenue to make some money to make the ends meet. There's enough human misery, starving babies, disease and hunger in the world to take a morally superior position over other human beings.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 13:05:

Hunter I have heard your question many times, by comics and others who aren't studying the problem in its entirety.

"How is it that something that can be given away freely is illegal to sell?"

The answer is that we've documented the devastating effects of the sex trade on human life. When it becomes a business, it's an entirely different scenario. Obviously if you give yourself to someone you love, this is not degenerative to the human spirit. If you give yourself to someone you're just animally attracted to, it's not the same. If a young girl does the whole high school football team in the locker room so she can be popular, it is not the same. When it becomes a business, that's where legislation draws the line. And guess what? It doesn't have to be ALL prostitutes, it just has to be enough to be a social problem for it to be legislated.

There are people who can drive home safely drunk as a jerk. Should we, because there are a few of those, make drinking and driving legal? Ridiculous.

Gomezman5 says on Sep 3, 2005, 13:06:

I'm off to a late lunch....with an ex prostitute ........they have to eat too!!! just a joke

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 13:08:

Just don't drink or eat after her... Not a joke.

Hunter says on Sep 3, 2005, 13:08:

cam0940 I think you mean G5.

Hunter

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 13:09:

Hunter, You are correct.

Rubiazo says on Sep 3, 2005, 14:07:

Desi If my daughter wanted to be a prostitute one day I'd tell her to do it where it's legal. It's her fucking body, not mine. I would also let her know that if she thinks that it's easy money she will be in for the shock of her life! I don't see anything wrong with one selling one's body, as long as it is done in a safe and hygienic manner (which IS very possible). I believe we are all owners of our own bodies. I don't buy into that disgusting Christian pseudo-morality anymore!
I can't say who here has sex workers for friends and who hasn't but I personally have spent more than my share of time with them, in various countries. I can no longer believe that they are all drug addicts or that they are all fucked up because my personal first-hand observations have led me to believe otherwise. Desi, your concept of a sex worker's mentality is obviously formed from the media and not from personal experience, otherwise I think you would have a very different take on things.
I would say that your idea of Amsterdam as a city with a drug abuse problem is a popular misconception, not a truth at all! It's the same as that people think that here in Bogotá everybody is walking around high on coke, because of how much coke comes from here. Just absolutely not true!

Rubiazo says on Sep 3, 2005, 14:15:

Cam I think this whole sex needing to be tied to love thing is a load of shit anyways. Love is much more than sex, and you shouldn't need to love someone to have sex with them. I think the whole idea of monogamy is bogus and generally destructive to civilization. Fuck, even the chimpanzees have it figured out, which is why they are several orders more intelligent then the jealous and monogamous gorillas.
God, have we gone THAT far backwards since the days when Hefner was still living in Chicago? I thought we were way past that kind of medieval thinking.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 14:15:

no gomez, I'm not getting into that. I know next to nothing about laws and how they work. I did already say why I thought the law was fair and I can repeat it: many of the girls who are forced into prostitution here are not doing it of their free will.

It's all a matter of interpretation. Before the falling of the Iron Curtain and the opening of the Russian borders prostitution was virtually unknown in these parts of the world. We don't have that much experience in how to handle it. These societies have been traditionally rather avant garde about nudity and sex, but it had never been a businesslike. The society is changing here too and some think it's not for the better.

The great majority of Swedes, Finns, Norwegians and Danes still think sex is not something you sell or buy. It's a natural part of our lives and we have no double morals about it. We're kind of proud of it.

Cheers,
Desi

(and now, can we get back to discussing the city of Cali)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 14:23:

ok. Rubiazo you have answered my question. I have no further comments.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 14:40:

Rubiazo I never said sex had to be tied to love. In that illustration I went from one end of the spectrum (sex tied to love) to the other end (selling it). The illustration was given in the context of where/when to legislate.

You wrote that if your own daughter wanted to be a trick, you would advise her as to where to do it. That was your position and you are absolutely entitled to it. But it speaks volumes.

How many sexual partners a chimpanzee has has nothing to do with its superior intelligence to the gorilla. You gotta be shittin me.

Why do you keep alleging that someone said "All sex workers were this" or "All sex workers were that"? None of the posts say that. What the posts say, including mine, is that most sex workers are fucked up, issued people, and they are. You can't see it because you're obviously issued your damn self, because you wouldn't even object to your own daughter getting passed around like a piece of shit.

caslug says on Sep 3, 2005, 14:54:

All you anti-prostitution poster forget ONE THING.. Prostitution is THE OLDEST profession in the world AND will ALWAYS be part of human existences. No if and or BUTS! They're will ALWAYS be the need and suppliers for this. So all the moral preaching going on ISNT going to change it. Even if you pump millions of dollars to "reducated" sex workers and give them jobs of flipping burgers, they'll be MORE to replace them.

In the US, we have 5% unemployement, that means ANYONE that wants to legimate job can get one, BUT we still have people going into the sex industry(porn, stripping, prostitution, etc.,) by the thousands EVERY day, dont tell me those people were FORCE into those jobs because they COULDNT find a regular job. THEY CHOOSE TO, for the easy money.

So how can you BEST help women(and men) that are in it. You can REGULATED it, take the criminal element out, REGULATE the "Johns", make sure the "johns" HAVE to use CONDOMS(to reduce STD on behalf of the workers). In the US porn industry, it went from an non-regulated, underground industry to a VERY regulate industry, corporate american industry. So what happens, ambitous women went from acting to producing the films, companies are form and US govt gets tax money from it. All actors are tested on a periodic basis.

Another brutal facts of life, you CANNOT save everyone, you ONLY CAN save people who want to be save. So if you take 100 hookers in COL and give them jobs that pay 700k/month(decent livable wage), some will voluntarly go back to hooking. I've meet dirt poor,uneducateds girls in COL that ARE NOT HOOKING, they work in crappy paying jobs! So obviously the ones that are, know their options they choose to do it for whatever their reason.

Rubiazo says on Sep 3, 2005, 15:09:

A trick is a john, not a ho.
And a trick waits on a ho, a ho never waits on a trick. Remember that!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 15:17:

lots of ifs and buts sorry caslug, but the world will not turn out the way you would like. The "oldest profession" has never been anything but a last resource. There's no glory for being a prostitute. As we move on in the history of the human race the commerce of human flesh will become an anecdote of the past.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 15:25:

Caslug While you are somewhat correct, I think you're being agitated by something no one ever said. You're not going to eradicate prostitution. We know this. But that doesn't make it "good" or "OK". It's going to exist.

Your Econ 101 explanation of full employment was oversimplified at best. First of all, no economist since the beginning of time has been able to accurately measure "full employment", so you can never say "anyone who wants a job can get one". It is an inexact science. Being off by 1% can equal as many as 1.5 million people here, or 50,000 in Colombia. Some of these invariably end up strippers and hoes. Secondly, if you can find a job at say a movie theater that pays $2000 per month before tax, but your obligations are $2100 per month, you are what we call "underemployed", which was the greatest single problem between 2001-2004. Underemployed are invisible when calculating the overall unemployment rate, but nonetheless an economic problem. The underemployed die slowly, not even eligible for public assistance. And you get some strippers and hoes from that group as well.

As far as the benefits of regulating the US porn industry, and its mass improvements for the quality of life of these sex workers, I would imagine that's why Savannah late one night sat down and blew her fucking brains out. Because she, at the time the top porn star in the US, was so happy with the opportunities the industry gave her.

I live in LA dude. This is where they make that shit. I have clients that freelance making adult films. Do not go there. These are some depressed hoes who, the first time they did it were normally desperate for the money and were very poorly paid, so they had to do movie after movie to support themselves. Then they get used to living a certain lifestyle, but don't have any other way to keep it up except to keep selling. And then one day no one wants to see them anymore because they've been seen 100 times. And so they're used up, out of the business, with no where to go and nothing to do. MALE porn stars have far more longevity, because no one's really looking at them to begin with. And MALE porn stars can be hairy, fat, pasty bastards because their looks are not what's selling the videos. So it's an entirely different game.

cam0940 says on Sep 3, 2005, 15:29:

Rubiazo Depends on your social setting. I can say a trick is the transaction, I can call a guy a trick because he's the one paying. And I can call the girl a trick because she's the one selling.

If you come down here on MLK and Figueroa, and say "oh, that girl's a trick" talking about a sex worker, hooker, prostitute whatever, you will not be misunderstood.

CaryGrant says on Sep 3, 2005, 15:52:

Rubiazo: Prostitution is legal in BC - send your future daughter out here. I'm sure the boys are always looking for fresh meat. It is illegal to publicly solicit (i.e., streetwalking), but not via other means. There are a few brothels in Victoria, plus numerous 'independents.' They're legal, they even pay (some) tax.

It's pretty hard to say you really know a prostitute. Most of them don't even know themselves, because what they do is so socially frowned-upon, to put it very mildly. A prostitute is forced into a life of shame if she tells people what she does for a living, but if she lies - well, nobody feels good about lying, except politicians, lawyers, CEOs, and other people in power. They seem to thrill at how much they can get away with.

The job of a hooker is to be 'on' for each client. She has to tell and show him what a great time she's having, even if she is repulsed by him. Not a recipe for feeling good about yourself.

I disagree that selling sex is necessarily shameful, and I think many prostitutes perform a valuable service. Women don't normally go for guys with physical deformities, erectile dysfunction, who are very shy, who lack social skills, etc. However, the fact that the prostitutes cannot be honest with clients, family, boyfriends, etc., because of the social stigma, often leads to escapism via drugs and alcohol.

How many people work at jobs they hate, making less money than they want, being disrespected by their boss and company - how soul-destroying is that? Some prostitutes chose their field because they could make more money for less work, and they didn't have to clean toilets for a living (or some other crappy job, ha ha).

Most men more easily disconnect sex from love/relationship than women. This is, I believe, a biological fact. And this makes it much more difficult for a woman to have sex without connection, meaning it degrades her ability to love - women's source of strength. Women are love.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 3, 2005, 16:17:

yes, I like the last statement "women are love"
I believe the problem (?) is exactly there, the way we regard love and sex. Maybe for the guys the main function is the biological one: to spread your seed as widely as possible to ensure the survival of the humankind. For us women the social function is the important one: to provide a healthy and safe growing ground. For the survival of the mankind both are necessary.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 00:41:

But Des...do yourself and others a favor Skip the generalizations. You are an educator and I am a lawyer. Neither of us are in a postition to say what affect any given behavior has on ALL people. Your personal disdain for it renders you incapable of forming an objective opinion on the matter. I on the other hand, could not care one way or another if it is legal or not legal. But logic dictates, and I presented that logic quite well above, that if it takes 2 parties to comitt the crime, you don't punish one and not the other. You failed to explain the logic in doing otherwise.

And you seem to have this complete inability to distinguish between those that are essentially "sex slaves" forced into prostitution, and those that represent the clear majority of sex workers, the ones that do it voluntarily. The anti prostitution people, in pursuit thier agendas by exagerating beyond the realm of belief and common sense, the amount of people that are forced into the profession. I am not by any means defending the sex slave trade. It is tragic and those who abuse and humiliate women in that manner should be punished harshly. But, give me a break, I don't want you to start pontificating that the sex slave trade is an example as to why prostitution should be outlawed. You are mixing apples with oranges. I am certain that well over 95% of all the prostitutes in this world, are doing so under their own free will. In fact, I have not heard about it happening on a massive scale anywhere in the US or Canada. It is not to say it has not happened here, but the incidence of it is not worth addressing.

That being said, if you are going to punish the person who solicits sex, you don't have to be a legal eagal to realize that to be consisten, you have to punish the provider of as well. To allow one person to comitt a part of a crime and get away with it, and punish another person for comitting another part of the same crime that takes place at the same time, with the same person that incurrs no liability is just silly and by the way, not a very consistent way of creating justice under the law. Such an application of law in the US, would be struck down as unconsitutional at it's earliest stages of review for being violative of due proccess and equal protection.

But....so goes it with Scandinavia

Rubiazo says on Sep 4, 2005, 08:31:

I don´t just know girls as a CLIENT. As a musician, I can usually get it for free if I want. Mos of my sex industry professional friends are friends of mine 'off the books'. So I do get to see the other side of them. Those girls are different from the rest of the population, in the exact same way I am. This is why strippers and prostitutes invariably choose musicians DJs and bouncers for their bf's... we are all hanging out at the absolute lunatic fringe of society and can relate to each other in a way normal people can never relate to us.

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 08:43:

OK, cool. Now we have a reference point. Rubiazo just wrote:

"Those girls are different from the rest of the population, in the exact same way I am. This is why strippers and prostitutes invariably choose musicians DJs and bouncers for their bf's... we are all hanging out at the absolute lunatic fringe of society and can relate to each other in a way normal people can never relate to us."

Now I, for one, can respect that. My sister has spent a tremendous amount of time on the road these last several months with Motley Crue, and Tommy Lee in particular. These people are NOT the center of society as Rubiazo pointed out. If being on that fringe allows musicians and sex workers to relate to one another on a special level, that's fine. Cool, in fact.

But you can't take the values/perspectives that come from that fringe and use them as the basis for legislation. In other words, what these people consider to be acceptable should not be imposed on the rest of society, because they actually pride themselves on being the "wild side". They themselves acknowledge that they're a little more free wheeling, out there, pushing the limits. You can't take those views and legalize certain behaviors based on the views of the self proclaimed renegades of society.

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 09:04:

So let me understand something Rubi and Cam0940 All sex workers hang out with the "lunatic fringe" of society? Good grief, the preconcieved notions that you guys have is factually not correct, and cannot be substantiated.

In my time representing women who get arrested for prostitution related offenses, I would not catergorize any of them as a member of the "luntatic fringe." I still have more respect for the street walker who is supporting her drug habit, than a male drug user, who has to resort to violent crime to support the same $150-$300 a day habit. Males, often will shoot you for your wallet that only contains a few dollars. Women who work for escort services, are no different than any other servic business. They certainly are not a part of the lunatic fringe. They live. They sleep, eat, go to the grocery store, and believe it or not, go to some of the finest Universities in the US. In fact, what about massage therapists. You know them. Those are the people that work independently, or work for Physical Therapy centers, or hospitals for that matter. Why is it that a woman can get paid to massage a persons body, but as soon as she touches a man's penis her action is a crime? So a massage therapist is not a member of the lunatic fringe, but if she happens to touch a man's penis, she is.

I think generalizations that are accurate are acceptable. But in this instance, I think your generalizations as to all prostitutes being a member of the lunatic fringe is unacceptable

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 09:23:

ah ah ah G5 Rubiazo was, up to now, on your side. So when HE threw out "lunatic fringe", that's what I commented on. None of my previous posts, even this most recent one, said anything about ALL. I responded to Rub's post, that's all.

You are obviously talking about a different class of sex worker than he is.

The high priced call girl is obviously different from the hooker in the florescent miniskirt and fishnets on MLK.

The answer to your question about the masseuse touching the penis is that the line has been drawn on prostitution. Imagine if you will a spectrum of color from black to white. Somewhere in the middle is grey. Unfortunately as you know, the law is not necessarily a spectrum. At some stage there is a line. Legal or not. Black or white. The closer we are to the line, one way or the other, the more questions we have. Your masseuse incident is very close to the line, making it a thought provoking question. But the fact remains that legally it does cross the line. Maybe you combat that by redefining prostitution. I don't know.

Also, on the use of generalizations, I did grant you earlier that I too, know women who have done productive things with their earnings like paying tuition, etc. But those few who do are still far and few between.

You're familliar with the bell curve. You're talking about high priced call girls who maybe do have a Plan. These are right tail girls. Everything to the left of them is why prostition, as an institution, is illegal. Unfair, maybe. But just like Rub can't use the "wild side" left tail girls as the basis for legislation, you can't really use the cream of the crop right tail girls. I think legislators have to work with what's in the middle.

DonkeyDust says on Sep 4, 2005, 09:31:

Boogie Nights I just watched Boogie Nights last night. At around 3.5 hours with commercials it was a little long.

But I couldnt quit watching. It shows the porn/sex business and all that goes along with it. It was not pretty and while watching the show (and after) you want to be sure your as far removed from that scene as you can be.

Maybe it was over blown but it had: loser, degradation, despair, violence, a dead end path, and more written all over it. If you did this movie not about sex trade workers but about say nurses and put in those same negatives I don't think it would have worked.
It worked with sex for money as the glue that bonded every one together.

In a perfect world I might like to have a go with an 18 year old hooker and some of her friends but really I don't want to take the chance that it would be degrading for her because then I would be also degraded for financing the whole thing.

That being said the following has been a contrversial line for me.
If you don't get sexual in the first 3 dates...something's wrong.

Latitudes attitudes & platitudes.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 4, 2005, 09:59:

Gomez, I'm not going to argue the Swedish law concerning prostitution with you. I don't really care if you think it'd be unconstitutional in the Sates. It works for us. We're happy with it. Enough said.

About generalizations; yes we all generalize up to a point based on what we know and the experiences we've had. You do it too. Now, if you or anybody else here thinks prostitution is something you don't mind recommending for your daughters or your sisters as a career choice then I don't have anything more to say about it. That's your individual opinion but you can't argue that that's what the society in general thinks is good or desirable.

I can assure you that the majority of Caleños would not want their city to be known as the capital for sex trade in Colombia.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Rubiazo says on Sep 4, 2005, 10:16:

The law and the lunatic fringe IMHO that is EXACTLY what the rule of law is supposed to accomplish as its primary goal- to protect the rights of miorities, in whatever sense, against the tyranny of mob rule. Otherwise, what do we even need laws for? Isn't that the whole idea behind freedom of self-expression?? We are supposed to protect the expression of the most offensive members of society in order to ensure freedom for all. In both Brazil and Colombia, it is a persons right to freedom of expression and their right to privacy that make prostitution legal in the first place! Just because I'm a little bit wild doesn't mean I want there to be laws prohibiting the lifestyle I live so I can be a criminal too!!!

Desi, I can understand that nobody wants sex for sale in thier backyard. The Cariocas HATE it when you bring up Rio and sex in the same sentence, even though it certainly is in every sense the sex capital of the whole Western Hemisphere and maybe even the world. But frankly that is THEIR problem. The international sex trade in Rio and the Carnaval (the two things the locals HATE the most), are what makes the difference between Rio having at least some cash to fix the roads and keep the lights on and being another Congo. In short, it supports all those soccer moms lifestyles and then they turn around and try and bite the hand that feeds them!!! I think people all around the world need to grow up and get a little pragmatic about things, or at least be a little bit tolerant. We're all so busy drawing lines in the sand we dont see the tidal wave coming in!!

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 10:31:

Desi and cam (forget the numbers) Cam...I was not attacking Rubi, I know he was on my side but for the "lunatic fringe" comment. But, this isn't a war here (although often it seems as such). This is a forum. So just because he agreed with me on something in prior posts, that does not mean that I can't take issue with what he or another for that matter says in a subsequent post. No? Besides, you had agreed with him, as to the lunatic fringe assessment and I did not agree with either of you. I think I have been clear as to this point.

I am happy you see my point and relative inconsistencies. I think at least here in the US, the government ought to just stay out of peoples lives period. If a woman want to sell her body, it's her business. It is her business in the very same way it is her business when she aborts a fetus, or in the case of a late term abortion, you are actually aborting a very young live. I personally don't like abortion, but I support a woman's right to do so. You can't have it both ways. It is utterly rediculous and nonsensical for anyone to tell me that a woman can control her body when it comes to killing life of some form, but she can't perform a sex act which but for the money is a perfectly legal act. To attempt to do so makes a person look silly. And by the way, poll after poll around the world supports my view. That is why that even in locales where prostitution is prohibited, in many cases, people turn a blind eye to the activity.

So you and Desi think the behavior is self destructive. Well, so is smoking, and excessibe drinking. And guess what, I am sure those two behaviors are far more self destructive to both society and one's self. People need to stop trying to legislate humanity. As a Libertarian, I believe in legalized gambling, legalized drugs and legalized prostitution. I will always believe that until the day I die.

And Desi.....you're to intelligent to be making these uniform conclussions. You don't speak for the Swedish people any more than do I speak for the American people. Hency your line:

"It works for us. We're happy with it."

My only comment is: It works for YOU. And YOU are happy with it.

I am quite certain, and you know so as well, that not EVERYBODY is happy with it. I would "bet the barn" on that.

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 12:20:

Rubiazo and G5 Although you two now--on the surface--appear to be approaching the subject from different angles, I think I have a response that is appropriate both posts.

Both were well written, by the way.

The fact is... this is a democracy, of the people, by the people and for the people.

You don't have a critical mass of supporters for your views. At least not yet.

Yes we are constitutionally guaranteed the freedom to express certain views or opinions through speech, assembly, yada yada. It does not guarantee freedom to PRACTICE whatever views you have. The freedom of speech is there so that you, as is our process, can introduce topics for debate. You can lobby your representative to try to change the law. It is a fundamental tenet of our system, so that laws CAN change with time reflecting the general desire of how the people want to be governed.

In other words, until you have a critical mass of like minded citizens, the law is not going to change to accomodate your views.

The fact that you DON'T have a critical mass means that the general population doesn't want/isn't ready for legalized prostitution.

Think Civil Rights Act. Prohibition. Roe v Wade.

caslug says on Sep 4, 2005, 12:38:

who said.. prostitute have a good life? They exist in EVERY COUNTRY/SOCIETY in the world. No matter if you want it or not, legal or not, it's there. The ONLY DIFFERENT from for EACH COUNTRY, is prostitution is REGULATED or NOT. Since it exist, AND WILL ALWAYS EXIST, lets regulate it for the physical health of the workers AND CLIENTS. Otherwise, the laws you put on the books to deter it, it just gets driven underground and it becomes much more dangerous for the workers and clients, higher prices, all this brings in the criminal element(because they are the ones that is use to working with underground businesses).

I'll give you TWO EXAMPLE of opposite end, Amsterdam and Tehran. In Amsterdam, where it's legal/regulated the workers are tested, city official regulated it, tax it, locals dont care(because it's restrict to a small area), and it's not corrupting the rest of the society. It's just another type of business. Then there's Tehran, where it's illegal, so they it's so underground, BUT they still have it(mostly for local guys). What happens if they catch the prostitute? She gets killed, pretty simple. I would say, that is NOT helping the women!

EVEN when you regulated it, NOT everyone wants to become one, EVEN when they get paid alot! In a part of Nevada, IT IS LEGAL! The girls get paid a lot(many times more than minimum wage). YET, there's NOT a line forming to get a job there AND there's NOT a line forming to get in and the use the service. EVEN if they legalize it TOMORROW in LA, there's NOT going to get every minimum wage burger flipper to quit there job and McDonalds and starting hooking. Look at stripping and porn, both legal industries, they dont get EVERY pretty girl/boy that has NO skill asking to become one. Sure some take the easy way for quick money, but that's there choice, no one FORCED them to become a stripper or go into porn. THey chose it.

As CAM said, some cont working to support their lifestyle. Well that sounds like they they're OWN decision to enter and stay in that line of work. At least in US, WE ALL CHOOSE to stay in our line of work, some because we like it, other HATE it, BUT it ALLOWS us to live the LIFESTYLE we want. Do one is FORCING us to be engineer, doctors, accounts, lawyers, garbage collector, burger flipper, garderners, etc.,

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 12:48:

That's not really the point caslug It's the landlord, the grocery store, the phone company, those student loans, and those bill collectors calls that force you to sell it.

Early on I said that a woman sells sex when there's nothing left to sell. And I meant it. If she could get the money she needed doing something else, she would.

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 13:11:

Cam...your almost there. But here ARE the facts Adultry
Did you know that in almost every state in the US, adultry is a Class A or similar misdemeanor. In other words, it is a crime by statute in that state's penal (no pun intended) code. A class A misd. In Illinois, a person, if convicted could to jail for up to 365 days. My question to you is, when is the last time you ever heard of anyone going to jail for adultry? In my 17 years as a lawyer I have never heard of it. But yet, the crime is still listed "on the books". Why? Becasue what legislator in his right mind would introduce a bill in his state legislative body to amend the penal code and thereby decriminalize the act of adultry? How much political gain do you think he or she would obtain for doing so? He could be a laughing stock. The media would have a field day with it...not just the locabut the national media too. In other words, a politician would have nothing to gain, but plenty to lose.

Same goes for prostitution. I beg to disagree with you. Most polls that have been taken favor the legalization of prostitution. But how passionate do you think people are about the entire matter. That being said, like with adultry, what legislator would introduce a bill to decriminalize prostitution? Do you really think the day will ever come, that a legislator will do what the public wants? Come on, you know better than that. Imagine the jokes and political commentaries that will be made about such a person. Forget it, it will NEVER happen.

So the above being said, how the public in a democracy feels about an issue often has little to do with the reality of your elected officials acting in accordance with the people's wishes.

By the way, CASLUG is quite correct. We have an old saying in the law..and it is true...No exceptions. And it is:

It is much easier to legalize an activity, than it is to prohibit it. When you legalize something, you can regulate it because you can monitor it. When you prohibit something, you don't elminate the activity. You just drive the activity underground where you have no way of controling it whatsoever.

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 13:23:

Point taken There used to be a time when adulterers were ostracized. Somewhere between then and now it became accepted as an ugly part of life. Not going to jail for it, but still not considered offensive behavior. But the law remains on the books.

Prostitution may be traveling the same path. But as I said we, as a people, aren't ready for that yet. If we were, you'd have critical mass and prostitution might be treated more like the excellent example of adultery you offered.

I'd be interested to see who was included in the sample set for the polls you cited. You're suggesting that the majority of the people believe that it is OK, and I would bet the barn plus the cows inside that it's not true. America is actually more conservative than you may think, living in a major metropolitan area. This is why the liberals in NY, CA, and FL were so dumbfounded that Bush is serving his second term.

Incidentally, the reason legalizing adultery or prostitution would result in political suicide for whoever writes/sponsors the bill, is precisely because it is a minority opinion. If enough people shared your view, politicians would have nothing to fear.

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 14:26:

The issue goes both ways in the political spectrum It is also looked at in disdain and is favored by both conservatives and liberals alike.

In fact, it is the feminist type, who also happen to be liberal, that tend to be against prostitution just as much as the so called "Religious right" albeit for different reasons and both have different agendas. the feminists see it as a form of exploitation and objectifying women. the religious right see it as a sin under the teachings of Christianity.

Most people who do favor the legalization of prostitution come from both the liberal as well as conservative sides of the political spectrum. I am certain there are just as many conservatives that patronize prostitutes as liberals...and maybe even more so. I don't think that SOME conservative men who still believe that the women she remain in the home taking care of th kids, probably would have no problem patronizing prostitutes.

It simply is not a conservative or liberal issue.

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 14:56:

I was going to argue conservatism/liberalism as it relates to this issue, but it's beside the point.

The fact remains, blue, red, purple or whatever, there aren't enough who share your views regardless of their agenda. Which makes it a minority opinion, one that hasn't even having arrived at the point of acceptance as an "ugly truth", as has adultery. That being the case, how can it be true that polls show the "majority" are in favor of legalizing it?

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 15:46:

Well can We will have to disagree as to what the majority opinion is regarding pros in the US. In a quick Google, I was able to locate a rather rebutable site where a poll was taken (albeit a nonscientific one) where it overwhelmingly favors the decriminalization of prostitution. (almost 9-1). Inasmuch the poll has to be at least an indicator if not a statement of public sentiment on the matter, I would venture to say, that even a scientific poll would not yield results that be all that much different and therefore prove that still a majority of the public is still against legalization. In other words, where there is smoke, there is fire. If I can find more info, I will demonstrate as such

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 16:09:

Gomez, come on. Did you say that the unscientific 9-to-1 in favor of legalization was "not far off?" Do you really believe 8 out of 9 Americans are for legalization? If this were true, surely we would have seen some action by now.

Obviously, as evidenced by your and Rub's posts, there is a movement. No one can deny that. Earlier Rub suggested it was a tidal wave. So does the unscientific poll you proffered.

Tonight I'll look for a little scientific data as well.

In any event, the movement--to date--hasn't broken the levee. Probably because it's still the minority.

Please share any data you come across. I'll do the same.

cam0940 says on Sep 4, 2005, 16:15:

I'm sorry I just can't even believe you said that 30 Million against and 240 Million for is "not that far off" America's perception of prostitution. Were you trying to sneak one by me, Gman?

Gomezman5 says on Sep 4, 2005, 16:38:

Yes I did say that... Cam....now look, don't go there. I had a lot of respect for you and was in fact about to comment about how you, unlike most people here, have done a good job a staying away from the personal attacks and related editorializing as to what if any agendas I or others may have. You have read many of my posts before and if there is one thing that you should know about me by now is that I "like to prove my point". I don't acquiesce too easily. It's not that I am seeking a movement to legalize it. I am only making a commentary as to what I believe the state of public opinion on the subject in this country. Can we at least agree to that???

All I said was that in 1 unscientfic poll (I do acknowledge the fact it is unscientfic) there a 9:1 ratio that favors the decriminalization of prostitution. That being the case, and at this time, lacking any polls that were done with the proper scientific controls in place, that fact in and of itself is at least an INDICATION that the sentiments against prostitution cannot be all that strong. Even unscientific polls have some degree of validity and they cannot be dismissed outright. They lack accuracy, but it is not as if it is results coming from outer space. I suggest that you check out the site where the poll was take before you dismiss it. The site also has a place where people were allowed to make comments to justify their positions, both for and against on the matter.

The site is: http://www.doctorndtv.com/poll/newresult.asp?id=25

aztec says on Sep 6, 2005, 04:31:

what is Cali like? Back to Cali and surrounding areas.

Valle del Cauca is one of the most fertile places on earth. The International Center for Tropical Agriculture (CIAT) is located on the outskirts of the City.

CIAT is an international consortium of researchers and Universities. Their mission is "To reduce hunger and poverty in the tropics through collaborative research that improves agricultural productivity and natural resource management."

Rubiazo says on Sep 6, 2005, 08:45:

I think that the USA as a country is very close to 50/50 on a lot of those hot button issues, like abortion, and decriminalization of drugs, prostitution and gamblimg. But there is a large part of the population that is simply neutral and don't think about it and don't care.

For example, if they did start to turn a part of Cali into an adult Disneyland, I think 10% of the population or so would be up in arms and demonstrating against it in the street, another 10% or so would be demonstrating in FAVOR of it, and the remaining 80% would simply shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives, not really giving a damn.
Like G5 says, trying to change the law in the USA is a tricky business. You have to do it in a way where the media won't eat you for breakfast.

tomtom33 says on Sep 6, 2005, 14:18:

Adult Disneyland Every city that I have visited in Colombia has that feel.

One Gr