What do you think constitutes fluency?

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2005, 21:36:

You're fluent If you think in Spanish and only a couple times a week have to look up a word, you're fluent. Fluent doesn't equal perfect or native.

One of my criteria for judging fluency is can you make a joke in the foreign language and other people find it funny (for the right reasons)?

I know what you mean about not feeling fluent in certain subjects. I think you find this as long as you're in a foreign language. You'll always periodically find yourself skating on thin ice, vocabularly wise. However, being able to ask what a word is, or to describe a concept and get the right word, while not breaking out of the foreign language, is another sign of fluency.

My level of fluency changes from day to day. A lot has to do with fatigue. Stage fright sometimes plays a part. Drunkeness, up to a point, helps.

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platano says on Nov 20, 2005, 21:54:

Mi criteria: 1) entender las noticias en radio y televisión
2) conversar por teléfono sin perder el hilo
3) contar chistes
4) leer poesia
5) discutir con los secuestradores (¡no se lo aconsejo!)

plátano

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cam0940 says on Nov 20, 2005, 22:17:

I have wondered the same thing recently. I don't FEEL fluent, because when I'm talking to certain people in say Cartagena, they use words I've never heard before and they use words in ways that I am not familiar with. My girlfriend says there is a difference between being fluent in the language and being familar with a specific dialect. I guess this makes sense.

There are Mexicans here who use words she doesn't understand and vice versa.

But for me, my only real problem in Spanish is these colloquialisms, which I am learning one by one. For that reason, I don't feel comfortable calling myself "fluent".

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Rubiazo says on Nov 20, 2005, 22:31:

Fluency means Can you understand and speak the language at a normal pace without halting?
You can speak really poor Spanish but be fluent in it. Hell, that would make you fit right in here in the Bronx! Especially if you through in English words all the time and use words like 'nigga' a lot.

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Miguel says on Nov 20, 2005, 22:36:

Fluency To me means always using the correct tense, sentence structure, etc; I, by no means, consider myself fluent. I do consider myself functionally bilengual.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 20, 2005, 23:43:

In that case there are many people who speak nothing BUT Spanish and are not fluent in it!!!!

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Miguel says on Nov 21, 2005, 00:38:

Exactly The same applies to the huge amount of Americans who butcher the English language.

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creamontop says on Nov 21, 2005, 06:29:

indeed gringoinbogota Being fluent in a language means the words rolll out of your mouth like water out of a tap.

first step is a wide range of knowledge in vocabulary, grammar spelling abilities and "feeling" for a language. In German it is called "fingerspitsengefuehl".

Second step : thinking in the language you speak. (this comes along with Third step). As you will gain time once you start doing it.

Third step : practising. Como "Platano" dijo !

the rest comes by itself. Nobody knows everything about a language. Even the Spanish rarely know their languages at fullest extend.

Concerning yourself as "fluent" depends on what you want to be able to do with a language. You can be fluent in talking gossip but quiet "handicapped" when trying to have a conversation with a chemical engineer in spanish about the latest researches in his field.

Besides this. It is always good to remain modest about own abilities. Keep up the good work utopiacowboy !

yo me puse tengo un guayabo ahora, yo seguro hace cuando estoy en Colombia

yo me puse tengo un guayabo ahora, yo seguro hace cuando estoy en Colombia

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 21, 2005, 06:33:

Some funny and interesting comments. That Bronx comment was hilarious, Rubiazo.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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tucsween says on Nov 21, 2005, 07:14:

Dreaming Have you ever had dreams in spanish? definately not the definition of fluency, but a pretty damn good sign. I think this happens more with people who are completely emersed, ala GIB. when this began happening regulaly it was a personal indicator of my fluency for me.

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CTina70 says on Nov 21, 2005, 08:54:

So True Gringoinbogota I learned Spanish when I was 3. I spent 6 months with my grandparents, I had to or I would not have been able to say I didn't want liver for dinner.

I am fluent but I don't think I have mastered 2000 verbs. I don't really know if I have because I have not ever taken the time to count them. I still have my cousins correct me when I say things wrong, but I have a niece who is from the states and I have to correct her English. I don't translate in my mind, I just speak. I have been speaking sometimes and think to myself... wow, I am really speaking spanish.

So, it sounds like you are fluent. You will find that there are words that mean different things in different places like in the US drink Pop, others drink soda and still others call all soft drinks a coke.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 21, 2005, 08:59:

fluency on different levels I think you are fluent when you don't have to make an effort to speak the language, don't have to look for words, expressions, don't have to translate anything. You have such a good grip on the language that you speak it with the natural syntax and rythm of the language, when things like word order, prepositions, verb tenses and pronouns have become automated and don't require any effort from the listener to comprehend them.

You think in the same language you speak. You may or may not dream in that language, but often after a period of total immersion you do start dreaming in the new language.

There are many different levels of fluency. You can consider yourself fluent when you can carry on and follow a conversation at the normal speed and rythm of the language, when you understand nuances and your pronunciation is good enough for your listener to understand what you are saying without making an effort. Making yourself clear and understanding everything that's said to you on the phone is a good example of fluency.

Cheers,
Desi



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 21, 2005, 09:07:

I agree with you, Desi. There are many levels. I have a high degree of comfort in my Spanish "world" but I know it's small and sometimes I feel frustrated by its limits. The other day somebody trying to get us to change phone companies called speaking Spanish and we went back and forth talking about the plans etc. Finally the woman figured out that I was an English speaker and asked if I wanted to switch to English. I said no, we seem to be doing ok like this. I still would not describe myself as fluent.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Albatross says on Nov 21, 2005, 09:33:

1200 Verbs ? I know 38.

But I'm good at conveying my intentions. In German this is called "Farfignugen".

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Miguel says on Nov 21, 2005, 09:54:

Let's continue this good thread When I first read the comments about different levels of fluency, I sort of did a double take, then an earlier post made perfect sense.
"You can be fluent in talking gossip but quiet "handicapped" when trying to have a conversation with a chemical engineer in spanish about the latest researches in his field"
I felt very fluent on the last journey to Colombia after my passport got ripped and I got a new one, and then had to explain to DAS in Bogotá why there was no documentation on the new one as to my official arrival in Barranquilla.
Apropósito Desi, "ritmo" quiere decir "rhythm" en inglés. No te preocúpes, porque yo siempre tengo problemas a escribir ésa palabra. I also have had dreams as well as nightmares in Spanish.

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ElPadrino1 says on Nov 21, 2005, 11:38:

Fluency -100 % bilingual means.. that one can Read, write and speak the langauge. If any side of this Triangle is missing, you are Not 100% fluent. Simple

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bbattiste says on Nov 21, 2005, 13:00:

What Am I? I can read the majority of spanish, but when I speak I use only four verbs....I go, I can, I need and I desire. Oh, and I eat.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 21, 2005, 15:47:

Dreaming I have always considered the moment when I start dreaming in another language as a turning-point in the interiorization and apprehension of said language. But you're right, it happens easier when you are fully immersed... Once you speak two languages fluently it is like a swithch was turned On in your head and learning new ones becomes easy-piecy...

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cam0940 says on Nov 21, 2005, 20:43:

Sometimes I dream the theme song from "Piel de Otono" or "La Esposa Virgen". They're of course in Spanish, but it doesn't really have to do with fluency. I just get hammered with those telenovelas. Whenever they go to commercial the volume gets like twice as loud and you can hear it all over the place, no matter where I am in the house. It's killing me. It absolutely haunts me in my sleep. But what are you gonna do?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 21, 2005, 21:26:

Dreams I dream in Spanish a lot. Sadly, my dream Spanish is still a LOT better than my real world Spanish.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 21, 2005, 21:33:

I know the feeling, Mr. H. In my dreams I'm always George Clooney.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 21, 2005, 22:15:

But does Clooney speak good Spanish in your dreams?

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ARMacleod says on Nov 22, 2005, 10:59:

It all depends on your individual requirements If: ¡Una cerveza por favor! is understood, that will satisfy the casual visiting jughead. on the other hand you will possibly need more when applying for a post teaching advanced physics.

I have made a real effort in trying to grasp the normal pleasantries of any country that I visit. To me that is more important than being linguistically perfect in any single language, (including English) In my simple opinion, to be able to say "Thank you" and "Please" have to be the most important phrases in all languages.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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morphus says on Dec 10, 2005, 05:04:

if you can understand a table full of Colombians talking word for word in a loud bar then you're fluent. even more fluent if its a table full of Costenos.

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rocinante says on Dec 10, 2005, 06:57:

farfromgroovin - hysterical.

I actually like the Costeno accent. But try to understand...

Remember that if you can conjugate one regular verb in all it's tenses you can conjugate the other thousand regular verbs. Same goes for the other 'groups'. Of course you must know the meaing of verb in order to use it. I dream in Spanish because I'm fully imersed. However I'm far from fluent in my opinion.

UC"I don't translate from English to Spanish but instead "think" in the language I am speaking"Meaning the idea of what you want to express comes in your head and you choose Spanish words - IdeaSpanish instead of IdeaEnglishSpanish. I guess this is what is called thinking in Spanish if you sloww the mind down. As many may have read I'm a huge proponent of this vs. translate the sentence from english. I feel that students can do this at a much earlier stage than they think and it totally speeds up the learning process.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 11, 2005, 22:05:

I have been noticing that so often when a thought pops into my head that I want to express in Spanish, it is my wife's voice saying what I want to say that comes to mind. I wanted to say "that makes me mad" and I could almost hear her in my head saying "Me da rabia!". If I were translating from English to Spanish in my head that's not what I would say but "Me da rabia" is what comes to mind so that's what I say. I really just mimic her a lot of the time like a little kid.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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mariasman says on Dec 18, 2005, 12:14:

Again,,, I am sorry about the "Sharks" comment. I hope that soon my Spanish level is where yours is. I read this post from you and you know, it is funny but when I moved to Cali, I understood almost no Spanish but living with my wifes Family really taught me alot. They were very persistent with me and really tough on me when I made mistakes and never let me get away with anything. I bought about 6 really good learning books before I left to live there and a set of CD's to listen to which were boring but useful. I know I don't have command of 1200 Spanish verbs but I hope I will soon. I am persistant. I am going to be living in Cali forever now without the possibility of return so I guess that I will need command of all 2,000 really soon. I am still trying to think in Spanish and it is slowly getting there. I find it really easy talking to her family because they never judge me and I feel comfortable so my Spanish is alot faster but when I am out in town or at Exito or wherever, I am a bit laid back with speaking maybe because of my fear of ridicule. Anyway, I am so sorry again. I was a bad Gringo today.

mariasman

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 18, 2005, 21:44:

No problema, Senor. No te preocupes sobre de este foro!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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me gusta bailar says on May 1, 2006, 21:18:

Re: Rubiazo's comment "You can speak really poor Spanish but be fluent in it. Hell, that would make you fit right in here in the Bronx! Especially if you through in English words all the time and use words like 'nigga' a lot."

LMAO! Si, estoy de acuerdo! : )

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miamimike says on May 2, 2006, 02:39:

Fluency means 3 things, not ONLY Speech You are FLUENT in a Langauge if you can Speak it, Write it and Read it. If you only speak a Langauge, you are considered Illiterate.

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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bartolo_colon says on May 2, 2006, 03:06:

BS mike, I have Colombian friends who can not read for shit, but spanish is the only language they have spoken there entire lives. Are they illiterate, yes. Are they fluent in spanish YES. Some are quite eloquent as well, they simply could not go to school and learn to read well because they were working there asses off when they were kids. I can read the newspaper in spanish, I dream in spanish, I talk on the phone all the time in spanish, but I certainly could not write a novel in spanish. Am I a non fluent illiterate marrica? A high percentage of campasinos can not even sign there own names Or read more than a comic book. But speak spanish like champs. Are they not fluent? Tambien, muchos campesinos ha chupado pedos fuera de un pollo y hecho amor dulce a un burro, esto no los hace personas malas. Luego.

Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!

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lpdiver says on May 7, 2006, 06:03:

For me... If you can follow two paisas in a heated discussion and interject...you be fluent. As for me I am not as advanced as you and most of my colombia relatives are amazed at "my fluency".

I can order a drink, a meal, ask directions, and make chitchat. But find myself lost often.

T

"cook some rice!"

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rocinante says on May 7, 2006, 06:32:

Paisas talk WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too fast. Juanes "Mi Sangre" DVD version has a interview with hime, anyone who can understand THAT is fluent!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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