Western Culture - Western Values...

caslug says on Oct 18, 2005, 09:56:

Mr. H..to me COL has more in common w/ other developing countries(ie, czech, Ukraine, vietnam, peru, brazil, etc.,) to me a definiation of a developing country is the poor outnumber the middle class(60% of col are poor, the numbers are the similar as the country i mention), male dominated society, Little or no wealth distribuation, difficult to get capital, etc.,

While China, vietnam, thailand, are asian country whose societal cultured are different than say COL, Brazil, Mexico. What they have in common is a) male dominated society, b) lots of poor folks, c) a few folks who are FILTHY rich that are well connected, etc., I've always saw that poor get along with poor, rich get along with rich. In vegas you'll see rich chinese, latin, european, & american are rubbing shoulder at the high roller tables.

Crazy4Cali says on Oct 18, 2005, 09:59:

Not really western vs.... Colombian culture is certainly "western" as opposed to "eastern" (as one would find in Asia, perhaps), and it is certainly commercial (as one trip to Unicentro will prove), however, the culture, like many other countries in Latin America, definitely has a different flavor than what you might find in other countries with "western" cultures such as those in North America and Europe.

In my amateur anthropoligical observation, the biggest difference is the strong maternal sense that pervades Latin social life. For whatever reason, and there are many, the mother in the household is a very strong and present force that influences all members of the family and, collectively, the society. Consequently, many different dynamics result from this throughout the society that are not seen in the other "western" cultures.

In North America, the maternal sense in the culture is not nearly as present, so the effect is not as obvious. Of course it will be interesting to watch to see what will happen as more and more Latinos come to the U.S.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2005, 10:05:

Maternal sense I agree that the maternal and family-centered culture is different from the USA, but considering that the cradle of "Western Civilization" is Greece and Rome, and both Greece and Italy have very strong maternal and family-centered values, I can't say that such values are non-western.

This is exactly my point, people are using the wrong distinction to differentiate between Colombia (which is a developing country, a Western culture, with a strong indigenous presence) and first world (or developed) countries like the USA, Germany, Italy, Canada....

I agree there are a lot of differences and would love to see them discussed and explained.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 18, 2005, 10:13:

Colombian culture not western? That thought had never entered my mind. I did check it out in wikipedia and there's absolutely no doubt that Colombian culture wouldn't be just as "western" as the US culture, for example. Colombia being a developing country has nothing to do with it. These are two totally different parameters.

The maternal influence in Latin American cultures is due to the predominance of Virgin Mary in the Roman Catholic Religion. (One possible explanation).

There's a smallish, indigenous (Non_European) factor that is also part of Colombian culture; that'd be the non-western part of it as Mr. Hollywood already pointed out. The whole society, the laws, the government, the institutions, thae language, the religion etc. etc. is 100% western, albeit non-Anglo.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

adrimm says on Oct 18, 2005, 10:26:

hiccup

adrimm says on Oct 18, 2005, 10:26:

Agree Desi " The whole society, the laws, the government, the institutions, thae language, the religion etc. etc. is 100% western, albeit non-Anglo."

I think that you hit the nail on head with that. Spend some time in Latin European countries (parts of Italy, Spain and Portugal) and you will definitly see some cultural similarities.

People here need to differentiate between "Western" and "Developed".
With exception to the indigenous cultures Colombia is historically and geographically a western, that is *developing*.

elmodefoque says on Oct 18, 2005, 10:36:

From my own personal experience around traditional Wayuu people, most are untrusting and keep non-wayuus or Colombians at a safe distance and with damn good reasons. Ever since the Spaniards landed in our shores, they have been getting the shaft. Unlike Colombian women who eagerly drop their panties for Gringo a Wayuu girl will never smile or look you straight in the face and is not because they feel any less, they just see non-wayuus as thieving ugly modefoques and not worthy. I invite any of you guys including Colombians to come up to any Wayuu village in La Guajira and try to talk to a group of Wayuu girls, they will politely turn their face and scatter. Colombians see this as a sign of ignorance and typical behavior of a filthy India, while in fact is a sign of no interest in your thieving, materialistic, culture or values. I embraced the “western culture� with a vengeance, that’s why I continue to be a druggie a drunk and will screw anything that I could tie down and most likely will drop dead of either cirrhosis of the liver or my nose will simply fall off. Western culture might not be healthy and pure but damn, is a lotta freaking fun.

elmodefoque says on Oct 18, 2005, 11:05:

I often wonder how my life would be if I had never left my people and had grown up with Wayuu traditions and values. Most likely I’ll be the chief with 25 wives and 320 kids and over a thousand goats. Alcohol will never touch my lips but one thing for sure; I’ll be grinding and shoving that coca paste in my mouth all day long.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2005, 11:18:

Cacique Elmo Elmo, buddy, if you'd stayed in Colombia you'd have been dead for about 25 years already.

And if Wayuu girls have an attitude like that, no wonder you split for NYC.

elmodefoque says on Oct 18, 2005, 11:39:

Mr.H, you might be right; the life expectancy for native people in Colombia I think is up to 26 years old, I’ll be one very dead modefoque right now.

vladimiro says on Oct 18, 2005, 15:33:

According to the historian of civilizations Fernand Braudel, Latin civilizations are part of the Greater Mediterranean Civilaztion inlcuding North Africa and Asia Minor which I don't believe are considered to be part of the 'west'. (By the way, Moslems also consider themselves to be inheritors of Greek Civilaztion and Europe was introduced to the greek classics through arabic translations).

I think Colombia is a Mediterranean influenced society, and in some ways has more in common with those Mediterranean societies that are not part of the west than it does to Northern Europe/USA.

I also read that initially most of the books and cultural output in Colombia was created by the European elite. You could not tell from theu subject matter or styles whether a book had been written in Colombia or Spain. After mass education literacy spread to the general population Colombia's cultural output changed significantly with indian african and other influences becoming strong.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2005, 15:55:

Culture vs. Civilization GIB, I believe you're confusing Western Civilization with Western Culture.

A Western Culture, speaking generally, is any which has a culture, language and values derived from Europe. In light of Colombia's Spanish language, history of Colonialism, prominance of the Roman Catholic Church, and the ongoing fascination with European culture, it's definately a Western culture. Many Colombians would be insulted to hear otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

BAQ says on Oct 18, 2005, 16:52:

Go figure I was speaking with someone yesterday about "Latin" and here is what a fairly well traveled, educated Colombian American told me when we were discussing "SPAIN".

He said, SPAIN is not as LATIN as ITALY. We were discussing women and his comment was "Italian women are more Latin than women from Spain".

I have never been to Spain so I can;t comment directly but I thought it very odd. jajajjaj

Semper Fidelis !

adrimm says on Oct 18, 2005, 17:05:

GIB As I said earlier, people need to differentiate between "Western" and "Developed". Just becuase we are saying western, doesn't mean we are saying it is developed. The Eastern world has it's mixture of developed (Japan) and developing, albeit rapidly, nations (China).

BAQ considering that "Latin", in the historical sense, is derived from the Roman empire it doesn't strike me as odd that Italy is considered more Latin. Culturally speaking, I think your friend does have a good point, especially if one were to look at *southern* Italy exclusively. I travelled a bit there and I was often reminded of Colombia when observing people's mannerisms etc. Although obviously both Spain and Italy (indeed the world) have changed dramatically since colonial periods, I think that Italy's cultural path has undergone less of a radical transformation than Spain has over the centuries. This may be due to heavier church influence in Italy.

I also note that I felt huge similarities between small rural communities in Spain and Portugal with their Colombian counterparts.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2005, 17:12:

GIB wrote "Colombia is a third world country. If you spend all your time in the bubble you don't see it but beleive me it is."

This is your condescending streak showing itself again. It's rather unattractive.

I'm out of your "bubble" every day. This weekend I was partying with a bunch of friends in the South, so the street cred that you're continually claiming doesn't really wow me.

Back to the original subject, here's where you're wrong: There's NOTHING mutually exclusive about being a 3rd world country and being a western culture. And Spain most certainly was part of Europe unless you're subscribing to some alternative theory of continental drift that I don't know about.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2005, 17:34:

Not listening Dude, you're clearly not listening to what this topic is about. Of COURSE Colombia is a 3rd world country. Nobody said anything to the contrary. It's also a Western Culture, which isn't contradictory at al.

And if you're going to argue that Spain wasn't a part of Western Europe in 1810 when Colombia declared independence, please explain how it was that Spain became allies with the British and Portuguese against France in the peninsular war at that exact same time (which is part of why Colombia dared to break away) if it wasn't?

Caballista says on Oct 19, 2005, 00:56:

Great topic and always giving fantastic info about the past. But tooooooo much bla bla bla to. Specially Mr. Sabelotodo # 1.

Sr Tertius says on Oct 20, 2005, 10:09:

My two cents Great discussion. I had mentioned before that the "non-western" characterization of Colombia is rather condescending, although there is certainly nothing inherently wrong with "non-westerness". The problem is that it is not used to indicate that Colombia is culturally mostly aboriginal-American, African, Asian or whatever, but to suggest some sort of cultural backwardness. It's similar to the "civilized"-"uncivilized" distinction in Victorian Britain. It's politically laden.

Adrimm: "people need to differentiate between 'Western' and 'Developed'." I agree, in principle. The problem is that "developed" is also politically charged: the assumption is that the 1st World is where we want to be, and we are on our way. I disagree with that assumption. Dependency theorists used to talk about "center" and "periphery" to refer to the industrialized world, and the rest of us (those providing raw materials, and pretty much getting fucked). I prefer that distinction. So, I'd say that Colombia is a peripheral western nation.

And the 3rd World discussion... oh my God, this is, what? the eighth time we take on the same freaking topic...? and GIB keeps bringing up the same whiny bullshit: "Colombia is a third world country. If you spend all your time in the bubble you don't see it but beleive me it is." Check: http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/9560.

Mr. H: "This weekend I was partying with a bunch of friends in the South, so the street cred that you're continually claiming doesn't really wow me."

For anyone here, not only does GIB's third-world urban sagacity doesn't impress me: I know it's bullshit. I don't pretend to be the savviest guy here, but I've been around my neighborhood for a bit (14 years or so), and I know bullshit when I see it.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

SirTropical says on Oct 20, 2005, 13:46:

New perspective Western Culture - Western Values--- Perhaps people could better explain how Colombian values are different rather than relying on this flawed distinction.

Ok I read most of the postings, and surely there is a clear conclusion at the end, WESTERN WORLD & CIVILIZATION are 2 different things, the western world on my view it's clearly related to the politic and economic trends of certain "developed -1st. world" countries nowadays; on the other hand the western civilization it's more likely related to the inherited past for the european expansionism and colonialism period that now it's being excercized by the western world in forms of cultural imperialism (to continue the purpose of the western world countries... in other words they are mutually interconnected to eachother's purposes.

BUT... a big but(t) .. it's that those VALUES - I quote Mr. H - "Perhaps people could better explain how Colombian values are different rather than relying on this flawed distinction " are found in other place where the history, religion, politics, economy, philosophy, and even the geography among many others blend into eachother to give an exclusive character to the "Colombian Values" and why we are different or not from other countries.

Mr Geert Hofstede and his Cultural Dimensions may have the answer that you are looking for. In his well accepted theory he found 4 tendencies about how individuals from different backgrounds would interact and respond in definately different ways once integrated into a workspace ( I traduce this like once we all have become part in the capitalization process and are heading towards a new form of globalization - todos juntos en la misma olla parce !!) there's abundant information on the web about him, but there's a good source to finally understand how values remain once the set of interacting parameters have changed ...


Power Distance Index (PDI) focuses on the degree of equality, or inequality, between people in the country's society. A High Power Distance ranking indicates that inequalities of power and wealth have been allowed to grow within the society. These societies are more likely to follow a caste system that does not allow significant upward mobility of its citizens. A Low Power Distance ranking indicates the society de-emphasizes the differences between citizen's power and wealth. In these societies equality and opportunity for everyone is stressed.



Individualism (IDV) focuses on the degree the society reinforces individual or collective achievement and interpersonal relationships. A High Individualism ranking indicates that individuality and individual rights are paramount within the society. Individuals in these societies may tend to form a larger number of looser relationships. A Low Individualism ranking typifies societies of a more collectivist nature with close ties between individuals. These cultures reinforce extended families and collectives where everyone takes responsibility for fellow members of their group.


Masculinity (MAS) focuses on the degree the society reinforces, or does not reinforce, the traditional masculine work role model of male achievement, control, and power. A High Masculinity ranking indicates the country experiences a high degree of gender differentiation. In these cultures, males dominate a significant portion of the society and power structure, with females being controlled by male domination. A Low Masculinity ranking indicates the country has a low level of differentiation and discrimination between genders. In these cultures, females are treated equally to males in all aspects of the society.



Uncertainty Avoidance Index (UAI) focuses on the level of tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity within the society - i.e. unstructured situations. A High Uncertainty Avoidance ranking indicates the country has a low tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity. This creates a rule-oriented society that institutes laws, rules, regulations, and controls in order to reduce the amount of uncertainty. A Low Uncertainty Avoidance ranking indicates the country has less concern about ambiguity and uncertainty and has more tolerance for a variety of opinions. This is reflected in a society that is less rule-oriented, more readily accepts change, and takes more and greater risks.


Long-Term Orientation (LTO) focuses on the degree the society embraces, or does not embrace, long-term devotion to traditional, forward thinking values. High Long-Term Orientation ranking indicates the country prescribes to the values of long-term commitments and respect for tradition. This is thought to support a strong work ethic where long-term rewards are expected as a result of today's hard work. However, business may take longer to develop in this society, particularly for an "outsider". A Low Long-Term Orientation ranking indicates the country does not reinforce the concept of long-term, traditional orientation. In this culture, change can occur more rapidly as long-term traditions and commitments do not become impediments to change

for a Colombian complete analysis check here:

http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_colombia.shtml



... Now, I love El Chorizo but...where's the BBQ sauce ??

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 21, 2005, 05:55:

Thanks Sir Trop Wow, that's a really interesting and seemingly sensible paradigm for looking at cultures. I'm going to read more on it.

Thanks for pointing it out.

I especially think the Uncertainty Avoidance Index could explain a lot about the differences between Colombia and countries like the USA. In Colombia, you simply must deal with a lot of uncertainty and to get too worked up about it would make everyone go nutty.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 21, 2005, 10:20:

a very good thread in spite of the humoristic contributions from some people who weren't quite up to the task.

Sir Tropical, excellent post.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Crazy Eagle says on Oct 21, 2005, 15:21:

Colombia basically western cocktail with a large shot of African and a twist of Indian. Mr Hollywood was right, its western since it derives its basic culture & language from Europe. Southern European culture with Indian & African influences spicing up the mix. Sounds great.

"If you marry for money you will earn it." Old European saying

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

CaryGrant says on Oct 22, 2005, 12:13:

Does the label really matter? Must we pigeonhole Colombia? The OP asked how Colombian VALUES are different.

The problem with labelling is that it produces structures that perpetuate the label. The US is finding this out the hard way: given the rates of intermarriage, race/colour labels are increasingly irrelevant. However, there are plenty of people on all sides who want to make sure everybody gets labelled, so they can keep the dollars and power flowing their way.

vladimiro says on Oct 24, 2005, 10:15:

Western Values I have never really understood what these western values are that the people in the east supposedly don't have. I guess individualism is a western value when compared to china or japan, but some of the others I hear about like humanism, or human rights aren't exclusively western: asia had humanism and its own Medicis before they appeared in the west; the world' first human rights charter which is displayed at UN headquarters in NY was written by Cyrus the Great thousands of years before anyone in Europe had thought about it. Maybe democracy could be considered a western value, but even then it was just 50 years ago that all of Europe with the exception of the UK and France was under dictatorship.