We should help Colombia

Sr Tertius says on Oct 8, 2007, 18:59:

"The goal: A stable Colombia"

No. The goal: Hands off Colombia. Period.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Simon says on Oct 8, 2007, 19:02:

Damn, I think this is the first time I agree with Sr. T on anything! Nice to see he's finally coming around.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 8, 2007, 19:14:

"finally coming around"?

My opinion has been very consistent. On the other hand, Simon, you seem to have a lot of admiration for Uribe, who has humiliated himself and the country by begging door to door in Washington, like a damn broom seller.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Simon says on Oct 8, 2007, 19:39:

"The man has done nothing to be proud of has many ghost in his past........."


Dude, what planet are you living on?



"Uribe has done nothing"? Here's what a senior US official has to say about that!

"Since 2000, kidnappings are down by 76 percent, terror attacks by 61 percent and homicides by 40 percent. And, Colombia has made great strides in the healthcare and education of families and children."

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Colombiche says on Oct 8, 2007, 19:51:

I don't believe in Uribe being some sort of messianic figure, but I do believe he has accomplished a few things. He has improved overall national security and with those improvements, the economy has grown (foreign investment, tourism, consumer confidence). I would not say he is selling colombia to the highest bidder, I just think he is really trying to get those buckaroos to flow into the country's economy (although I have seen him look rather servile at times, like when he let Bushes' goons frisk the colombian soldiers).

What worries me the most is

a) Uribe is clearly exhausted and running out of ideas to exterminate the guerrillas
b) Who is going to pick up the "batuta" when he is gone. Is the country developing some sort of psychological dependence on him?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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eywed says on Oct 8, 2007, 19:51:

Medellin Is a much safer city to live in and visit than a few years ago Who did that ? So many say it was Uribe that did that what do you guys say.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 8, 2007, 20:08:

eywed: I don't know about Medellin, but Bogota has also made enormous progress, thanks primarily to the OPPOSITION to Uribe (mayors Mockus and Garzon) and formerly independents like Penalosa.

I'm not going to deny that Uribe has accomplished some things (securing certain areas, bringing some paracos to justice, taking advantage of global economic growth, maintaining good relations with a problematic Venezuela) but he somehow manages to "erase with the elbow what he writes with his hand"* (reduced security in the traditional conflict areas, interferes with investigation of paraco activity, has not built up safeguards for a global economic slump, and does and says stuff, directly or through his lackeys, that gets us in trouble with our neighbors).

*I hope that makes as much sense in English as it does in Spanish.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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eywed says on Oct 8, 2007, 20:13:

Thanks for the reply Tertius.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Robert Jorge says on Oct 8, 2007, 21:51:

Richard Lugar is a good guy. I think it is cool that he has noticed the potential ramifications of the US doing things wrong in Latin America ... and Colombia in particular. No matter what your take is on US policy in Colombia, I hope most people would agree that it is a good thing that there is concern and attention from people like Dick Lugar.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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scotty says on Oct 9, 2007, 00:37:

I thought we were helping Colombia? and all of central americaand mexico and Bolivia and africa and philipines and afganistan and well just about everyone else, except our own countrymen of course?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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eywed says on Oct 9, 2007, 01:07:

If you dont put the money right in someones hand they think we dont do shit for them.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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scotty says on Oct 9, 2007, 03:25:

eywed, you said it! billions of american dollars, food, medicine, technology, etc sent all around the world and what do they want...more.

reminds me of my ex girl, buy her cloths, shoes, flowers, nice dinners, whats she want...more

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Simon says on Oct 9, 2007, 10:10:

And could you show us that survey at least?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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eywed says on Oct 9, 2007, 10:41:

Let a natural disaster happen any where in the world and who moves in to help. But we are just the shit Americans. What would happen to many countries around the world if we took away all the support we send them.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 9, 2007, 13:08:

I don't doubt the generosity of individual US citizens, but as a nation, the US is not particularly "generous." As of 2007, about 60c of every $1000 GDP of the US goes into economic aid; compare that to France or the UK, which give about $5 each.

So I don't buy that BS. Or the romantic naivite of the US helping the world. Amazing how many politicians in the US are soooo altruistic, but in other respects are quite Macchiavelian. And so insistful: Most people not only don't ask for their "help" (I'm talking about having a helpful military base in the vicinity, when not being poisoned, invaded, or bombed back to the stone age), they reject it outright. But the good Washington politicians know better than the rest of the world, and they couldn't mean anything but the best for all of us, don't they? If you follow the money trail a bit beyond your nose you'll find some interesting stuff.

Disaster relief is a whole different story. Those are gestures of (somewhat) unconditional solidarity between nations, if goodwill is not regarded as a condition. To condition solidarity to deference is pretty low and beyond any argument.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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scotty says on Oct 9, 2007, 13:20:

Sr, some countries may donate more through their goverment which is basically taxes from the people being sent to charity. But the US citizens donate more food, money, technoligy than any nation in the world.
No matter how hard you try to belittle the USA's contribution to the world , the fact is it is always the SA that comes through with aid, assistance and defense for those in need.
We realize that the world still complains and still wants even more and we appologize that we can't give even MORE than we already do.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Simon says on Oct 9, 2007, 13:31:

Way to go Sr T!! You tell 'em!!! Por fin nos entendemos en algo!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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juancegomez says on Oct 9, 2007, 13:59:

Uribe's not any religious figure you might invoke but he's not a demon raised from hell either...

I have to agree with Sr Tertius, mostly. I also think there are plenty of people that are, at least in theory, capable of sustaining a few of the relatively good things Uribe has done (hey, some of those do exist) while trying to reverse or just avoiding the many mistakes, omissions and flaws that also surround his administration (too many to count, but not exactly *everything* that's gone bad either).

As for "selling Colombia" to the U.S., that's hardly Uribe's own fault alone. Neoliberalism and pro-U.S. stances are pretty old here, with a few exceptions. I don't see any reason why we should automatically turn rabidly anti-U.S., but we should be able to establish and keep our own distance in those areas where we do not have mutual interests or, in fact, where U.S. interests may run contrary to our own. You don't need a Chavez to do that much, IMHO

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 9, 2007, 18:26:

"some countries may donate more through their goverment which is basically taxes from the people being sent to charity."

Foreign aid is not charity. National governments are not the Sisters of Mercy.

"But the US citizens donate more food, money, technoligy than any nation in the world."

Pass me some numbers.

"No matter how hard you try to belittle the USA's contribution to the world"

I'm not trying to. The US is #21 in foreign aid per GDP dollar; I think it goes up to #18 in aid to least developed countries. That's much more than most countries can claim, but it doesn't make it the most generous country in the universe. That's a huge claim that needs to be substantiated.

"the fact is it is always the SA that comes through with aid, assistance and defense for those in need."

"SA comes through with aid"? In the foreign aid balance, South America is, overall, most likely a donor than a recipient. I looked up the data. As percentage of their GDP, Guayana ranks 19 with 15% (France?), Bolivia a far 43 with 6% (Venezuela?), then Suriname..., then Ecuador is #88 with 1.1% of their GDP. Colombia is #120 with a meager 0.2%. I'm not sure what you mean by "coming through with aid," but South America definitely does not depend on it. The larger countries, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela don't take a cent and probably put forward a sizable chunk (particularly Venezuela with its petrodiplomacy).

Now, you may argue that there are other ways in which countries aid one another, like in the article mentioned by GIB. Well then, if you are going to challenge conventional measures, you better come up with a better one. Counting remittances as aid is plain ridiculous. The money that I send to my mother every month is not US aid to Colombia: It's Tertius' aid to his mother. If we were going to include that, why don't we count the number of South Asian professionals that work in the US and were educated in their native countries? you could say that the Indian taxpayer that paid for the professional's education is "aiding" US industry. You could take arguments like this to ridiculous extremes. Until we have a better reason to change metrics and a better way of measuring aid, we should stick to its strict definition. Otherwise, what we have is not argumentation, but BS opinion.

"We realize that the world still complains and still wants even more and we appologize that we can't give even MORE than we already do."

This is more autism than opinion. First of all, who the fuck is "we"? Are you the voice of the US? And let me make one thing clear to you: THE WORLD DOES NOT WANT MORE. IT WANTS LESS. Here's a link to the latest Pew Global survey:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/27/news/pew.php

Think what you may, but don't confuse your opinion (particularly when in autistic fits) with facts.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 9, 2007, 18:47:

Mr. Pew of the Sun Oil Company would be rolling in his grave if he knew what his Pew Charitable Trusts have become.

Back on topic: I think all the measures of aid are far from perfect. If I were to make a comparison - I'd recognize multiple types of aid but keep them separated. Co-mingling or aggregating them results in a meaningless pile of mush.

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scotty says on Oct 9, 2007, 23:22:

Anytime anyone, or any country, wants the USA to stop sending aid or not send assistance to them in a time of their need please just let us know we will gladly stop, if you hate America so much please write to your political leaders and ask them to break all connections with the USA, I am certain that if your country wishes to break bonds with USA we will do so at your request.

Everyone bitches and moans and complains about the US but they never turn down our aid, they never turn down our assistance...in fact some countries DEMAND we help them and if we dont move fast enough for them they complain even more.


I think the american people are some of the most generous people on the planet, almost everyone that i come in contact in my daily life donates to something or some organization around the world.

There will always be those in the world that hate the USA for one reason or another and there will always be those that are envious of this country, theres nothing we can do about that. As the old saying goes "you can make some of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all the people happy all of the time".


God Bless America and all the ships at sea

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 07:01:

Thanks for not addressing a single point we were discussing. Your BS opinion is touching but hardly persuasive.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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eywed says on Oct 10, 2007, 12:32:

Sr Tertius, What is good enough for you?

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Grateful Dead says on Oct 10, 2007, 13:36:

I like the U.S.

Gringos are ok with me.

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 13:53:

well as the old saying goes " you can make some of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all the people happy all of the time"

TS, no matter what we say you can come up with negative posts. a thread like this can go on forever because you will always find the negative about the USA. I never see you say anything negative about Iran or Venezuela or Russia or China, its always the USA that you attack. That just about says it all.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 10, 2007, 14:42:

Scotty, I think you and Sr. Tertius are neighbors. You ought to argue over a glass of beer or whiskey or milk. Who knows, you might find some common ground. Or not. Haha.

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 15:07:

we're neighbors? sure i'll meet him for a beer, but by reading his posts im not so sure we would have all that much in common, except maybe Colombia.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Saltador says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:09:

I think this article will shed light on the figures being tossed around:

http://www.princeton.edu/~soapbox/vol2no4/24noveck.html

As you can see, when it comes to overall dollars given in Foreign Aid, the USA are the champs of the world. Most other countries pale in comparison. But, if you are a US critic, you can put your own spin on things by comparing GDP or other metrics you pull out of your ass. But the facts are, the USA ranks number one in the world when it comes to foreign aid giving.
Consider your numbers passed Sr T.

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:59:

Scotty: I have nothing but great admiration and gratitude for the United States of America, something that I cannot say of either Iran, Venezuela, Russia, China, Burma, or most of the world for that matter.

What I have is a thing against blatantly false statements, particularly when they cover their falsehood under a clout of vagueness. "The US is the most generous country in the world" or "South America 'comes through' with US aid" are just some examples of such statements.

I also have a thing against the US's foreign policy, particularly when it's against the interest of my country, and even more when it is disguised as "aid." But I know very well that the US (like most nations) is much greater than its politicians.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:13:

Saltador: per GDP or per capita measures are hardly pulled out of anyone's asses: It's the standard way of comparing economic and demographic variables without confounding them with wealth and population. That's not a criticism of the US: It's fundamental econometrics.

But thanks for the article, it's pretty well written for an Economics junior. I don't agree with a good portion of the argumentation, but either way it supports my point.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:14:

ST, that was very well put.

This country does things that I disagree with also, but what country doesnt, no one is perfect, no country is perfect. You can go back through history and look at all the stupid things different countries and leaders of countries have done and say to yourself " why did they do that?"

A time has come in our history where lines are being drawn, a person and a country has to decide whose side they are on. The days of riding the fence or being in the middle are ending, we have to decide who we are, where we are going, and who our friends are.

Disagreeing with America or Americans or politicians is one thing and is a free right of every citizen(at least in most countries), but to bash a country, to spend serious time trying to find negative things about a country, to purposely, publically, continuously make an effort to put down one certain country is just not right, its unpatriotic.

Everyone has a complaint about their country, example I have a friend here in the states thats from Brazil, he on occasion has complaints about the goverment of Brazil and the way some things are done in Brazil, but you would never catch him slamming his country or going out of his way to bash his nation, he loves Brazil and will stand up for Brazil in a heart beat.

Everyone has their own opinion and thats fine but the constant bashing really does get old.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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jaramillo says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:16:

The U.S. is the largest donor of foreign aid, contributing more than twice what the UK or France contribute. It's only when you put it in as a fraction of GDP or in per capita terms that the U.S drops in the list. But that is quite an arbitrary criterion, tertius. One can simply say that no nation gives more than the U.S.

Also, regarding "hands off" vs a "stable colombia". That strikes me as a particularly naive statement, especially coming from one who seems to be involved in the social sciences. Every country, and especially a great power, must have realistic foreign policy goals. Hands off is laughable.

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:24:

Well, Scotty, all I can say is that if you read anything from me that amounts to bashing the US, please point it out to me. I can only hope that you'd reciprocate by not bashing South America or the rest of the world. As you say, it gets old. Well substantiated factual statements, regardless of how critical they may be, are always welcomed by me.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Saltador says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:41:

Sr t,
We'll have to agree to disagree. You say GDP and per capita measures are the "standard" way of measuring data. I say it's the only way you can spin it to minimize the USA's huge contributions.

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Colombiche says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:46:

Damn Sr T. Eventhough you and I sometimes find ourselves on different ends of the ideological spectrum, I really must say you have a way with words.

I don't really care for the argument at hand..... or maybe I do, but I was just enthralled sitting on the sidelines watching it evolve.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:48:

Jaramillo: Any criterion is, to some extent, arbitrary: It depends on how you define "aid" or "generosity." It is indeed true that no nation gives more than the US, but it is also true that no industrial first-world nation has a population size comparable to the US. The fact that the US "generosity" derives from the size of its population seems rather unremarkable to me. It'd be like saying that people wear more shoes in Bogota than in Somondoco, because there's more people in Bogota (That may be an interesting fact, however obvious, if you want to establish a shoe store, but not if you want to study shoe-wearing behavior).

As for my "hands off" comment: Yes, it is simplistic. It wasn't intended as an argument, but simply as a reaction--maybe a bit excessive. My point--if there was any--was that there's a fine line between legitimate influence and interventionism. What Senator Lugar suggests is continuing the long tradition of US governments interfering with domestic affairs of Colombia, and I don't like that. If the US wants to have good relations with the rest of the global community it should start by stepping back from interventionism towards more legitimate forms of influence. Again, the distinction between these two is not black and white, but meddling in other people's internal affairs is, for me at least, more the former than the latter.

BTW, Jaramillo, I left the social sciences for the life sciences a long time ago. I just couldn't take all the hot air that has infected most social sciences. What can I say: I'm a hardcore positivist.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:50:

Colombiche: Your words make me blush (however much a brown "injun" like me can blush).

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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jaramillo says on Oct 10, 2007, 19:15:

Of course, "any criterion is, to some extent, arbitrary". That is all I wanted acknowledged, because your argument had the air of infallibility. And a Bogotá/Somondoco ratio is a fallacious argument because the ratio is so huge (as opposed to a U.S. to U.K ratio which is rather small). Also, aid refers usually to diverted taxes (i.e. government aid). It ignores corporate donations (in the billions for U.S corporations), donations by religious organizations, donations by private individuals, scholarships by U. S. colleges and universities, etc. To say that the U.S. generosity merely derives from the size of its population shows, in my opinion, a shallow understanding of what Americans do to serve people in other countries. Just my opinion. Find me another country in which the two wealthiest individuals (Gates and Buffet) collectively have surrendered 90% of their wealth (some 90 Billion, to charity), and then we can talk generosity. I recently heard Carlos Slim (richer than either Gates or Buffett), listing his very good reasons not to give.

What do you do in the life sciences? Are we colleagues?

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Saltador says on Oct 10, 2007, 19:21:

Sr T,
Your argument is flawed. In your "shoe analogy", more shoes are worn in Bogota simply because there are more people there. If your analogy worked, then China and India would give more than the USA in Foreign Aid, simply because both of them have four times as many people as the USA. But neither of them crack the top 20 list.
So much for your analogy.
I could agree that the USA gives more, because we have more to give. But I still don't see that as a negative.

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 19:47:

Saltador, you have a very good point . Look at the size of China with its huge population yet I dont see them appearing on the list? wheres India? wheres Russia? wheres that big mouth Chavez, he has all that oil, he's not on the list?

No matter what the problem is or where it is in the world the USA is always there to assist, not only out goverment but our citizens, churches and other organizations.

eople can say what they want, they can make every effort to belittle Americas role in the world, but the fact is that everytime a country needs help for what ever reason the first country they call for assistance is the USA.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 19:52:

Tinto, I tried to PM SR-T to ask how close he lived to me and invite him for a cup of coffee but his bio says that he does not accept PM's. I tried Tinto.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 20:37:

Jaramillo, Saltador: The Bogota/Somondoco is not flawed, but it is extreme. The same point could be illustrated with Bogota/Medellin, but it wouldn't be as clear. And, Saltador, it wasn't intended to show that population size alone determines generosity, but that measuring foreign aid (or shoe wearing) by absolute numbers confounds population size with the relevant thing you want to understand. This is why criminality, wealth, health services, and a bunch of other statistics are measured per capita.

Saltador: "But I still don't see that as a negative." And who does?

Jaramillo: If you can add up all those things together in a reasonable way, I'd be very favorable to consider those numbers. I'm also very impressed by the generosity of US billionaires like Gates and Buffet (among many others less prominent), but that's hardly representative of the whole population. Whatever you choose to add to the count of generosity, however, you must draw a line somewhere, and that line is going to be necessarily arbitrary. Maybe we can separate private from public donations, and in that sense maybe the US fairs very well in private donations, but I wouldn't know because I have no numbers.

If my argument has an air of infallibility is because this is about definitions, and those, as you well know, can't be right or wrong in and out of themselves. That I'm glad to acknowledge.

As for my occupation, I look at little critters play all day, sometimes I give them some drugs, and occasionally I help other people crack open their skulls to see what's inside. As brutal as it sounds, it's my dream job. What do you do?

Scotty: I live in Phoenix, AZ.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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eywed says on Oct 10, 2007, 21:00:

AAAAHHHHHHHHH now we are getting somewhere. I think we can mix two threads together here for a good out come. SR.T you say you crack open skulls of critters. Well if that is the case How about we send them GI's who raped that little Colombian Girl over too ya if there found gulity. Skip the drugs tho and get right to the skull cracking. You wont find much inside im afraid.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 21:14:

"I think we can mix two threads together here for a good out come." Nah, as entertaining as it is, I keep work and not-so-serious fun separated.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 21:45:

Sr-T, well you arent to far from me I live in the far east valley close to Superstition Mall . I used to live in Phoenix in the area of Camelback Rd and 20th St, I also lived in the area of Camelback and 40th St for awhile.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 10, 2007, 21:50:

whoa, who would've thought! we were literally neighbors! I live on 16th St near Thomas, right on the edge of the barrio.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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scotty says on Oct 10, 2007, 22:32:

yea, go two miles south of you and the area starts to get a little tough.

The good thing is you are close to everything, downtown, the ball parks, all the action.

Im out here in the boonies, anytime i want to do anything i have to get on the freeway and drive for 45 minutes to get to anything.

Maybe we can hookup sometime for a coffee or beer, we'll skip the politics and talk about something we agree on Colombia. Speaking of Colombia do you know of any Colombia food places in Phoenix? There used to be one in Chandler owned by a couple from Medellin but it closed down after about 2 years.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Robert Jorge says on Oct 11, 2007, 01:28:

My parents have a place up in Prescott. We should all meet, get drunk, and go Javelina hunting. I'll supply the guns and ammo.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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scotty says on Oct 11, 2007, 02:29:

RJ, really, Prescott? Thats a great community, that area might very well have one of the best climates in the world, never really cold and never really hot, lots of pine trees and mountains, clean air, nice!

Yea, now you are talkin, corona beer and javalina hunting unless they find us first.

Just what we need three drunk guys with guns out in the woods shooting at wild pigs, "missing in action 3 PBH members."

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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webmanco says on Oct 11, 2007, 03:58:

Colombians need to stop looking at USA as the last Colombiana on the desert, just like Seleccion Colombia de football (balompie) should stop looking at Brasil as unbeatable. Kind of what Millonarios did last night.



http://www.eltiempo.com/deportes/futbol/fubolcolombiano/equipos/Millon...

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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jaramillo says on Oct 11, 2007, 08:04:

Hey tertius, regarding the Bogota/Somondoco vs Medellin/Bogota bit. I think that if one point is clear it is better not to exaggerate, as it opens the door to fallacies. Of course, I'm a paisa and therefore I was thoroughly encouraged to exaggerate. My old man documented our regional tendency in his well loved book "El Testamento del Paisa". Of course, you only need to read posts by paisas here to realize Medellin is the greatest city in the planet. Right.

I look at little critters to try to understand how they sense certain things. Usually I just cut their heads off. These days I also teach bright undergrads about critters and a few other things.

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jaramillo says on Oct 11, 2007, 08:13:

Charitable, or stingy?

http://69.25.26.69/spotlight/giveback/usa

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Colombiche says on Oct 11, 2007, 08:45:

Jaramillo, ya te he dicho un millon de veces que los paisas NO somos exagerados.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 11, 2007, 08:47:

El Testamento del paisa de Agustin Jaramillo Londoño.... el mundo es un pañuelo.
Jaramillo, alguna vez leiste Bobadas Mias de Rafael Arango Villegas?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Oct 11, 2007, 11:39:

No recuerdo si Bobadas Mias, pero de él si leí algo. Es que los manizalitas (por lo menos los de aquel entonces) son mas paisas que los Medellinenses. Porqué preguntás?

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bopenyan says on Oct 11, 2007, 11:56:

I really don't know the details of the proposed Free Trade Agreement with Colombia, but if it contains the bilateral arbitration clauses contained in NAFTA, any Canadian will tell any Colombian that US authorities refuse to comply with any and all orders made against them in a trade dispute. Ruling after ruling was made against the US in arbitrations under NAFTA as well as under the WTO, and the government fought to appeal, review and further appeal in the softwood lumber dispute, losing each one and still refusing to comply with orders made, and according to the Agreement, binding upon them. Colombians ought to pin very little faith in the Free Trade process with the US.

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Saltador says on Oct 11, 2007, 12:41:

jaramillo,
great post. Kind of takes away any and all credible arguments. Good job.

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jaramillo says on Oct 11, 2007, 14:42:

Thanks Jumper.

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Saltador says on Oct 11, 2007, 16:48:

LOL
Actually I looked up "Diver" in my spanish dictionary and it said "Saltador".
sigh...what do we gringos know about espanol...nada....

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jaramillo says on Oct 11, 2007, 17:12:

I think the best for Diver is Clavadista (dive in the sense of the guy who jumps from a diving board, or a cliff, into the water). Diver in the sense of diving into the ocean is Buzo. But I like saltador.

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Robert Jorge says on Oct 11, 2007, 20:59:

Scotty, it will be a while before I can get out there. But before I go, I will contact you and Sr. T. I'll bring 3 rifles. We can drink beer, argue politics and learn a little from each other, and then kill pigs.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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scotty says on Oct 12, 2007, 02:56:

RJ, lets do it! Let us know when you are coming out and we can all hook up in Presecott, its about an hour and 30 minutes from my house. Love Prescott beautiful country. see ya then.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 07:34:

"No recuerdo si Bobadas Mias, pero de él si leí algo. Es que los manizalitas (por lo menos los de aquel entonces) son mas paisas que los Medellinenses. Porqué preguntás?"

Disfrute bastante leyendo bobadas mias, me parece que pinta a los tipicos personajes paisas tal y como son. Por ejemplo, el culebrero que anda de pueblo en pueblo vendiendo menjurjes o al dentista que disfrutaba torturando a sus victimas. Asi como el famoso "sacamuelas" del Testamento del Paisa.

Estoy de acuerdo que los Manizalitas de esa epoca eran demasiado paisas. La mayoria eran Antioquenos, por lo menos mis abuelos son Sonsoneños y Marinillos.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Oct 12, 2007, 09:49:

Yo soy de los Jaramillos de Sonsón (nací en Medellín) . Tres de mis cuatro abuelos eran de esos Jaramillos. El Londoño es de Medellin. Mi tio abuelo Ricardo vivió en Manizales. De él hay inumerables anécdotas. El estudió medicina en París y al terminar regresó a Sonsón. Un día le dijo al papá (Lázaro) que le prestara una plata para compar un vestido. El viejo le contestó: Si la medicina no te da para comprar un vestido, dejá la medicina. Y si Sonsón no te da para ejercer la medicina, dejá a Sonsón". A la mañana siguiente preguntó el viejo, donde anda Ricardo? Salió pa Manizales a las cinco, le contestaron. Allí vivió y se hizo una leyenda como médico. De esos paisas se pobló Caldas.

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 11:07:

Jaramillo, me imagino que te refieres al Dr. Ricardo Jaramillo, mejor conocido como "Chipum". Ese doctor fue el que atendio el parto de mi mama y de todas mis tias. El era muy amigo de mi abuelo Roberto Gomez que era Sonsoneño, hijo de Rosendo Gomez casado con Matilde. Mi abuelo fue de los que llegaron a Manizales a caballo, imaginate pues.

Claro que mi abuelo vivio hace mucho mucho tiempo, yo casi ni alcanzo a conocerlo porque mi mama (la menor de la casa) nacio cuando el estaba ya sesenton. Es que los paisas de esa epoca fabricaban muchachitos hasta los 80 y pico ja ja ja. Uf!!! Estamos hablando del año de Upa.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Oct 12, 2007, 11:41:

Ricardo Jaramillo Arango. Aquí lo ves detrás de Lázaro, su padre, y su hermano, el padre Bernardo. Paisas hasta los tuétanos.



I guess we have drifted off topic! LOL

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 11:47:

¿Arango? Otro apellido mas paisa que la mazamorra. Mi abuela Mercedes es Arango tambien. Ella nacio en Chinchina Caldas, pero los padres de ella tambien eran Antioqueños. Vamos a terminar siendo primos lejanos.

Yes we have drifted off topic but this is very interesting that my granpa was good friends with your granpa's brother and we meet many many years later on PBH LOL.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Oct 12, 2007, 12:12:

As you said, un pañuelo.

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jaramillo says on Oct 12, 2007, 12:13:

A lomo de mula y caballo se viajaba (me refiero a la generación de mi papá). Varios días para ir de Medellin a Sonson.

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 12:27:

Que si que? Eh avemaria.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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manINred says on Oct 12, 2007, 12:33:

The Arangos originally came from the Aragon (thus stems the name) region of Spain which lies to the north and straddles the Pyrenees. Many people from north western spain populated central Colombia and Antioquia, and were very industrious.

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 13:08:

Asi era en esa epoca. Mi abuelo cogio sus corotos en Sonson, los empaco, cargo las mulas, ensillo su caballo y para Manizales se dijo.

En Manizales se caso con mi abuela (Arango), tuvieron 16 hijos y trabajo como contador toda la vida hasta que murio de un derrame.

Mi otro abuelo Alfonso era de Marinilla. Se fue a vivir a Manizales y alla monto varios almacenes. El viajaba mucho a Paris a comprar telas. Le iba muy bien, pero en el incendio de Manizales perdio su fortuna y quedaron casi en la ruina.

De veras que los paisas de esa epoca eran gente super industriosa y muy entrepida.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 13:13:

Maninred, most small town highland paisas were descendants of western/northern spaniards (Basques, Castillians, Galicians). They remained relatively unmixed. Even today in Manizales, people still don't mix much, very insular mentality.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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manINred says on Oct 12, 2007, 15:05:

Great story! What are 'telas'? I noticed that too, many of the smalltown paisas are racially homogenous. I never knew why. It seems they kept the regionalism inherent in the land of their ancestors, in Spain (Galicia, Catalunya and Pais Vasco regions, all northern, being the most independent in Spain). One good quality that they left behind was the hidalgo complex of Reconquest Spain where work gets done for you.

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 15:48:

manInRed,that is why the paisa colonization took a slightly different flavour to that of other parts of Colombia, because the paisa pioneers descended from these distinct groups of spaniards that were working class labourers more concerned with economic gain than noble lineage (which was a big thing in Popayan and the Cuniboyancence altiplano). In many instances, they brought women along with them, which is probably why in some antioquia highland towns the degree of mestizaje and mulataje is somewhat less aparent than in lower altitude colonies such as Santa Fe de Antioquia.

These waves of immigrants founded small andean towns where they remained very true to their catholic traditions and felt that their duty was to have many children to help in the "blanqueamiento" of the new colony's race.

I am reading a really interesting book about colombian demographics and it touches on why different colombian regions have such distinct traits and idosyncrasies. The book is "somos asi" by .... damn, I don't have it in front of me righ tnow as I am stil in the office (hard working paisa TSK TSK), but his last name is Turbay. There is a really interesting section that contrasts the Paisa and the Boyacence groups, right down to comparing the DNA.

Paisas are known for being very hands, industrious on of unpretentious, earthy speech. Just look at our staple dish, bandeja paisa. Simple, filling and to the point. We are also known to the colombian masters of hyperbole, as is evident in paisa literature and folklore. This contrast with the Bogotano tendency to minimize and be discreet (ay citica, que pecaito, esta malita... )

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 12, 2007, 16:00:

ah, telas means "fabrics". My grandpa was in the business of importing fabrics, perfumes and ornaments from Europe but he lost it all in the big fire. Had the fire never occurred, I might be down im Colombia running this big enterprise I inherited instead of working my butt off in a canuck office at 7:05 pm :)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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manINred says on Oct 12, 2007, 16:28:

I will have to check out that book, perhaps my library has it. I could use it perhaps as a source on the research paper I have to do this term.

I have to say Colombiche, as I sit here at university at 7:25 at night in Montreal, reading what you have just written about Paisas (and the various other amusing yet less informative threads of PBH) is certainy more interesting than studying for my midterms. I could use a dose of authentic Paisa hard-work right now...

nar,

I'll save it for tomorrow :)

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Sr Tertius says on Oct 12, 2007, 20:07:

Wow, I left the thread for a couple of days and it went in all directions. Let me go back briefly to some of the earlier discussions:

Jaramillo: I don’t think that an extreme example is an exaggeration. Exaggeration sounds something like “takes away any and all credible arguments.� All I’m saying is that if you take absolute numbers, it can take you to really absurd conclusions. The article you quote is very good. I don’t agree with a few points, but it documents its conclusions (with per capita numbers) , which is a very good thing. Note, however, that my point was never that people in the US are stingy. As I said, "I don't doubt the generosity of individual US citizens," and, if you look at private donations, I was pretty certain that the US would fair pretty well, and your article documents that. But, contrary to what the article says, private and public donations are two very different animals. I insist that what I send to my mother is a sign of my own private and personal preferences/choices/values/etc., not of the US as a whole. Again, a matter of definitions.

And, hey, it turns out we ARE colleagues. Where are you working?

RJ/Scotty: Sorry, but I won’t be going with you guys to the boonies carrying guns… nuh-uh. I’d take you to La Guadalupana south of Thomas x 16th St, I’ll even buy you the first round. Guns are optional.

GIB: I’m surprised you have the balls to ask me a question after you weaseled your way out of our bet in such undignified way. I’ll answer you anyway, although I don’t have the slightest hope that this will yield anything informative. First off, I’ve never said that US “aid� has “fucked everything up.� I’ve said that it is not aid, because it is not guided by a Colombian agenda (the “war on drugs� would be the last thing in the Colombian legislation if it wasn’t for US pressure) but by a US agenda, and Colombia is committed to pay more than half the cost of the plan. If anything, Colombian taxpayers are subsidizing US policies and defense manufacturers (as my old boss used to say: "Do you think you become powerful by giving away money like a moron?" Of course not).

Before I go on with how I think Plan Colombia is not only not aid, but it has also been detrimental to the solution of our internal conflict, please illuminate us: Why exactly do you attribute the economic growth (I guess that what you mean by “boom�) and increase in security to US “help�? Precisely how do you rule out the role of global economic growth and municipal policies, none of which have been directed by the US, on the economy and security in Colombia? But please, be specific, factual, I don’t care about your slogans and generic opinion.

In fact, do you know how much of the budget of the Colombian government comes from US contributions to Plan Colombia? I'll leave you with that question.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Oct 12, 2007, 20:33:

Hey Colombiche, we might be distant (very) cousins. My greatgrandfather migrated to Pereira from Sonson during la Colonizacion Antioqueňa and one of my last names is Arango, but we shouldn't let that get in the way, jaja. And to ManLred's and Colombiche's point, that side of the family traces its roots to the Basque country. If you are interested in La Colonizacion Antioqueňa , here is a link http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0018-2168%28197805%2958%3A2%3C260%3AA...

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jaramillo says on Oct 13, 2007, 08:53:

Sr. T. PM me an email address and we can exchange addresses. Same goes for you, Colombiche. After all, we may be distant cousins :)

A lot of basques in Antioquia:Uribe, Aristizábal, Echeverry, Echavarria, Aguirre, Caicedo, Zuloaga, y muchos otros.
Jaramillo es extremeño (Zafra).

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la campiña says on Oct 13, 2007, 11:24:

I went hunting once for chiguiros, got wet and eaten alive by zancudos, went home hungry

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jaramillo says on Oct 13, 2007, 12:23:

mmm... did you just wake up campiña? Or do you just want to take this crazy thread in the zoology direction?

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manINred says on Oct 13, 2007, 18:04:

Billyb:
That is a wonderful link! Are you sure everybody has access to it? I have access to the JSTOR database through my uni, and am indeed (while not procrastinating here) I am currently devouring several articles from that very database.

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la campiña says on Oct 13, 2007, 20:54:

what do you think jar man

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