PBH / colombia (travelguide, pictures) / post

Want to move to Colombia this year

I have been trying to pospone this for a few more years but I just can't seem focus on my life here any longer. I wanted to ask the question again to people who are living in Colombia. What monthly income do I need? I now own a great place. I will have about another 1 or two rental properties by the end of the year. It is myself and my wife(hopefully a kid by the end of next year as we are trying). I plan to find a job teaching english which I know is not going to pay me much but need to do something and don't have ideas of trying new business ideas as I don't really want to work too hard and rather focus on my family. My wife is such a trooper up here but we are really just kind of going through the process of day to day living until we get out of here for good. My mother is weeks away from passing away as she is lossing her battle with cancer. Therefore it is the last of my family even living close to us. We both miss Colombia and should have a decent amount saved. We would have much more in 4 years but we have been really just weighing the idea of going this year. We don't want to eat out eveynight of the week. We do like to go out just not planning on a lot of partying as we are really focusing on kids(hopefully). We will have a car or two but have no rent and some marginal income from teaching and rental properties. Thoughts are helpful.

By Brians on Dec 28, 2006, 07:55 in Friendly Talkzone.

plokij says on Dec 28, 2006, 08:09:

It all depends on your style of living.

This topic has been discussed here a couple of times.

To research the former discussions, scroll down the main page until you find the Google search box on the left-hand side.

Enter "cost of living" into the box and do a search on this site.

You should find plenty of information..

HTH

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Brians says on Dec 28, 2006, 08:22:

I already own my place Don and I know it is a topic that is always discussed. I have been on this site for a few years. However that seems to be my issue. I here such different figures. I mean I will not have any rent to pay. I do want to live nice and be able to pop over to Bogota or Cartagena without sweating it. I mean 2,000,000 a month seems really low to me. I was thinking more along the lines of 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 as a minimum. I know people live differently but I can't imagine that much of a difference.

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Brians says on Dec 28, 2006, 08:57:

Well we are in Medellin so I don't know how different it will be from Bogota. We would want to get out to dinner 2-3 times a week. Our place in estrata 5. We want two small cars or even just one bigger and a scooter. We are starting our family or at least have been trying. We are planning on two kids and that is one of the reasons we want to move. We want to raise them in Colombia. Don't talk us out of it as it is something we have debated and agree is what we want. I want to be able to travel back to USA once a year to visit my friends and maybe do a couple of trips around Colombia like to San Andres or visit a boxing gym in Bogota and spar a little with you;) My wife's family has a Finca Santa Fe that we would use as an alternative get away when we want. Basically I want to do something down there so teaching is probably the path of least resistance. I estimate that after I buy my rental places we would have about $3,000,000 a month income from them plus my teaching. I would also have income from the US and my savings. Anyway that is my start.

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poco says on Dec 28, 2006, 09:25:

Commune with nature I don't really want to work too hard and rather focus on my family.

Going to Colombia is the best decision you could possibably make. NO ONE in Colombia really wants to work hard so you will have PLENTY of company.

Focus on the family ??? hummmm,, I'd bet you will get over that part when you find out Amantes aged 21 to 26 cost about 500,000 pesos per month,, but for that price you need to promise to divorce your wife,, this holds the price down.

I was thinking more along the lines of 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 as a minimum. Now that's reasonable,, say $3,000 per month. You do want you kid in private school and to attend an University,, oh,, decent insurance,,

PS: When you open a bag of beans you should FIRST put them in a container. Take 10 or so out and look at them and if you don't see any HARD substances (like little pebbles) OR live, crawling ??? what are these things,, mites, crabs,, ha,, that's it,, be sure you don't get the crabs in Colombia. Anyway, put the GOOD ones in another container.

Think of the educational factor of having your kids growup while learning to search for crabs !!!! Now that's real value.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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robi666 says on Dec 28, 2006, 09:45:

Brian, DonGringo is right. This is normally impossible to say.
Now, knowing you, I can guess you'll be happy with in between 6 and 7 millions. But if you'll have a problem, well, you can live with a LOT less.
Sometimes I envy DG when he tells about the nice sensation of not owning anything and not have problems for the everyday life: I know I am still learning...
It is funny how people has different perception about what is a problem in life. I guess it is something that has to do with what you're used to and sense responsability.
Don't be scared, I know how it feels: you just need to organize everything and I am sure that you'll be fine.
I left four years ago a job that was giving me 500k euros per year, I had a high lifestyle and it was scaring to leave everything. One day I said "fuck off, this is not what I wanted" and my life started that day...
And Brian, don't forget that you also have a finca at Tayrona when you need a getaway place... ;-)
Poco, I know Brian's wife and I can say that he'll be fine, for some years at least! :-)

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Brians says on Dec 28, 2006, 09:59:

Thanks Robi for the wife compliment and I remember having that talk with you about what is needed. I guess I am look at this as no turning back. I know I can always come back but I am walking away from a lot now. However walking away from the USA bullshit and stress is really weighing us to make this move earlier. Anyway my wife is great and as she is now just turned 25 then those amantes don't look so great anymore.

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poco says on Dec 28, 2006, 11:09:

Now you know Sometimes I envy DG when he tells about the nice sensation of not owning anything and not have problems for the everyday life:

Why this site is NAMED POOR BUT HAPPY. (until something happens).

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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spigrimace says on Dec 28, 2006, 12:49:

Start with $600.000 a month to spend at my place... as I know you´re a sports addict! I think you´re right on track at 5 millones a month you should be able to live really well. You´ve been down here enough times and have seen what costs what here. example jeans for you are 40 mil at arturo calle, your wife can find a nice pair for 70 mil in the hueco. Where maybe jeans on sale are USD$40 at Kohls and USD$70 for her up there. You already know I live my life wholesale here as I´m in the restaurant biz so I can help you find food/licor items cheap enough! Just start remembering to not fall into the trap that you´re on vacation 365 days a year down here or you´ll need $USD10,000 a month! The teaching should keep you out of that trap. Time and time again I see many gringos live high on the hog too long when they first get down here to live, and they don´t have anything to occupy their time so they go to the parque lleras restaurants & bars every day & night spend $400.000-600.000 a day just doing normal everyday things and then add on the extras of going to a finca every month, the coast, a casa or strip club and guys get themselves into bigger trouble and see their nest eggs dissappear quickly. then once it´s too late, they have to hit the licorera or parche pilsen to drink, they need to find hole in the walls that have $4500 menu del dia, take the bus instead of taxis, and don´t have the money for the nice restaurants anymore. Think in terms of mil pesos is a buck. So if you make us$100,000 a year in the northeast and live really comfortable. You´d probably need 100 millones a year here to keep the same type of pace. Now since you wont have a mortgage here, that 60 millones a year seems a good benchmark. You could do other things for money like own taxis or a bus or build smaller apartment buildings if you can afford to buy a dilapidated house on a nice size lot, knock it down and build the building. Or buy a 2 story house and convert it to 4 apartments and rent it out. You also have a network of guys down here that are trustworthy if you need/wish to partner on a project.

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robi666 says on Dec 28, 2006, 14:41:

Spimigrace I cannot even imagine how can someone spend "600.000 a day just doing normal things in Medellin"...
Ok, let's exagerate:
A super super apartment (Poblado, furnished, long time rent, service included) 150k a day
Breakfast, Lunch & Dinner 150k (at Lleras, including two persons at dinner...)
Taxis 50k
Bar, extras, etc. 30k
That sums up to 380k...

Let's add "extras": trips, casa or strip club, let's say 3million a month
So, it's 480k a day (everything included, not just normal things)!

If you spend 10.000 USD (22million!) a month, you're out of your head, not just a guy who thinks he is on vacation!

Better to burn out than to fade away.

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bufalo says on Dec 28, 2006, 16:05:

6-7 millions a month would be fantastic for me, but 2-3 is just fine, especially if you own your own place. Here's a question, and I hope that it isn't hijacking the thread or anything, but what would some of you guys who are down here and into business suggest to do with say $20,000USD, business/investment wise. I'd like to do something with it, but to tell the truth, I keep hearing horror stories as far as businesses in Colombia. I thought I'd ask here because you guys have successfull (I know I spelled that wrong) businesses. Every time I check something out, it doesn't look good in the long wrong.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 05:31:

From what I see of investing in a business it's too tough I see how hard Spigrimace works and that is not me. I respect that in him as I don't want to try so hard. That is why I agre with the real estate idea. Robi and I talked about it before as the simpliest way to get a Colombian income. The problem is the returns I see. I see 6% in rents. I have spoken to my wife's uncle and his commercial properties get 1% a month which is the market rate. However that requires investments of USD$500,000 min. on there current projects. This is more than I would want to tie into any one investment. If I could get 8% I would based on what I want to invest in real estate I would never have to touch my US savings and not even have to work so my question to Spigrimace and Robi is: Is 8% achievable? Because everything I see is more like 6%. I respect both your options so curious to hear.

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 06:35:

DonGringo 8% was referring to rents in Colombia. My goal is to have enough invested in Colombia in rental properties to cover my bills down there monthly. I would still keep most of my money invested in my 401k etc. in the USA. I would like to keep those assets untouched and have enough in rental income to cover my lifestyle down in Colombia. I need income in Pesos as I really feel that currency risk is something I would not want to deal with in the future. I am a Vice President of an investment company. I have read your posts and agree with a lot of what you say and you give good prospective on investing inColombia. However I do see difficulties with the dollar over the next 10 years. I know the risks of investing in Colombia and weigh that with the risk of getting my income entirely off my portfolio in dollars and converting to Pesos. Therefore I think the safest avenue for me is to have enough income in Pasos and keep most of my money still in dollars. This also affords me an exit strategy. Anyway if I could get an 8% cash flow in Colombia from rents this would get me to the number I want right now. I could basically make it happen now and then teaching english would be basically a hobby and not a necessitiy. 6% would make it a necessity if I did not want to draw from US investments. So that is where I am now. I could just wait another 4 1/2 years and vest on some things here but I and just plain tired!! My life seems to be just going through the motions and trying to wait out that 4 1/2 years which kind of is a waste of 4 1/2 years. I also can't really see a way to operate from Colombia with my clients as they really need me local. However I have been thinking of taking a % cut with my current partner and spending more time down there. That makes things a little stickier as I would probably end up stressed and still have to maintain my house and pay taxes in the USA as well as work with a more stress out partner who would eventually probably ask for more % concession.

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robi666 says on Dec 29, 2006, 06:58:

DG, Brian is talking about getting 6% per year liquid.
After that, there is another gain for the increase of value of the apartment (let's say around 10% in Poblado, Medellin, this year).
Sure, you won't see that 10% until you sell, but also the rent is going up based on the new value (even though it will not increase at the same speed).
Then, what about Pesos vs. Dollar? DG, you always see Dollar going stronger, but it is not happening, and, in the long run at least, I am almost sure about the contrary.
You see DG, let's say that cost of life is three time lower here in Colombia, why real estate must be 15 times cheaper. It is a non-sense.
Brian, I am pretty sure that you can make 7%, net, 8% if you do not use an agency. I guess your wife's uncle was talking about a gross income of 1%, and it is more or less the same on residential properties. If you buy a shop at Oviedo for 500millions it will be rented at 5millions.
Net is after you pay administration, predial, taxes (if you have low income in Colombia), agency percentage and VAT and you consider some money fo maintenance.
Invest in your home country? Well, I am more for a mix. What you invest in your home country is for sure, but what you invest where you actually live is just in case cost of life goes up. Anyway, big money in your home country (80%).
Better to burn out than to fade away.

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Boatygringo says on Dec 29, 2006, 07:00:

Living in Colombia Wow you guys live high on the hog! I now live in Cartagena, one of the most expensive cities in Colombia I am told. I live in strata a 3-4 area, my rent for a 3 bed 2 bath appartment is US $145.00 per month my cable bill is $18.00 a month, electric $35.00 a month, I run celing fans all the time and a/c at night in my bedroom, thats why its high. water is $15.00 and gas about $ 4.00 a month. I dont own a car as there are hundreds of buses. I do own a Moto mostly because I love them. I am not big on eating out as I like to cook at home but do eat out about twice a week at the local resturants, not the tourist traps. My life style is quiet simple as I have always lived that way but I can go out and buy most any thing I want with out a second thought. As far as investmens are concerned look into Colombian Government Bonds they are paying at least 8% interest maybe more and you dont even have to do any thing. Boatygringo

Boatygringo

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robi666 says on Dec 29, 2006, 07:03:

Want to know how to make money in Colombia? If you have "balls" to do that...
Get a 20 years mortgage in the States, fixed monthly rate. Buy some apartments here: the rent you get from will cover the mortgage, and I am talking about the first year.
From the second year, it is money for your pocket and those apartments will gain value.
I am deciding if I need or I have balls to do it... :-)
Better to burn out than to fade away.

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 07:52:

My problem Robi is I am not currently living down there now. I really don't know what is on the market. I have my mother in law looking but she has her life and only really looks at new construction. I really think that is not the best way to go. You gave me a great idea with the bank foreclosure stuff but there never seems to be anything. I agree 110% about what you said about the dollar and won't get off topic about that but Don has his opinion and I just disagree but that is what makes chocolate and vanilla. I think you and I think exactly alike.

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 07:52:

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 07:53:

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Boatygringo says on Dec 29, 2006, 08:50:

Dont Do IT Dont do it. Dont buy rental property in the USA and try to manage it from Colombia it can be a nightmare being an absentee land lord. Even if you have some one looking after it for you. Been there done that. Boatygringo

Boatygringo

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 09:02:

I am talking about rental properties in Colombia not USA.

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robi666 says on Dec 29, 2006, 09:35:

For all the things about having a business and living X-Mas in Colombia, I perfectly agree with DG. But, DG, if you live in Estrato 6, you fell less pressure from your neighbourood, guards, etc. I am not saying that I like those colombians from Estrato 6, infact it is just the contrary.
Better to burn out than to fade away.

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bufalo says on Dec 29, 2006, 10:03:

Brians, I have checked out the whole foreclosure thing here in Colombia. Basically the banks want 80%, then 70%, then 50% (auctions go in order, if the first doesn't happen, they lower to 70%, etc) of the VALUE of the property, NOT the debt owed.

So if someone has say a 100 million house, looses it owing 10million, the bank offers it for sale at 80 million. From the little I know about this in the USA it is a ripoff, don't the banks up there just want the debt?

Anyway, something I know that works is, say the same example as above. Find that person who can't pay the 10 million and give him/her 25 million for the house. You still end up with 85million asa profit, a house to rent out/live in and he even makes out with 15 million or so (or whatever you want to give on top of the debt). I know people who have done this and made out.

I'm kicking myself because there was an "abandonded" house nearby, fixed up should be easily 250-300 million. I finally decided to call and ask how much they wanted. Sure enough, they were going to lose it and had just sold it for 75 million. (now I`ll be depressed all day). I don't have the capital for something like that, but I would have found it.

Another real estate investment would be loans backed up by property. I'm still checking this out so if anyone knows better, please chime in. Ridiculous, but normal loans here are usually 2-3% MONTHLY. Maybe this is normal, but I htink it is insane. Anyway, I have come across severl of these loans where people put up their house for what is a usually short term(1 year) loan. I will be checking on this to the legality of it. I do know plenty of people that have lost properties (and some that gained them) by these loans, but some have told me it isn't legal either.
To do this, I would suggest it be done through a lawyer or set up a company, don't let the people see your gringo face, they may take you for a sap and pay late. I might do this with my wife's cousin, he wouldn't cave in like me.
There are two of these that I might be doing in the near future. 1 year loans two properties. One is 10 million backed by a 50 million house, and one 20 million on a 70 million house. Both in Quimbaya. Not super-fantastic houses, but it is a start. Two reasons I have been slack with this stuff is because I am waiting for an investment Idid in the states which should pay off soon, the other is that we might up and leave Colombia alltogether (which is going to be really tough on our lives go back to the states with no money and nothing rock-solid on a resumé).

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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robi666 says on Dec 29, 2006, 10:06:

I don't know DG, it is too hard for me to follow you: I am just an engineer, not an economist, and I like to talk like an onion is an onion and carrot is a carrot. :-)
All I know, it is that my properties (bought when dollar was at 2400 and 2700) got rented in no time in El Poblado. And that I can sell at 10% higher right now. But I would never sell my assets in euros and dollars, too. I just like to stay with both feet on the ground... and take very small or no risks, because I don't need to. So if you're right or wrong with Dollars and Euros, no problems anyway!
And if I have a problem and need to spend less, I'll get back to a sailboat in Cartagena to live. I will, no problem... Actually, it is where I am probably going anyway...

Better to burn out than to fade away.

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 10:28:

Currency is a tough call DG you are right. I have never known anyone who predicted it accurately. However the USA economy is slowing and we have a stagnant workforce. The dollar yen carry trade is now in jeopardy thus if you lose that the dollar dives versus the yen. The USD is a safe haven but the Euro is becoming more predominate and thus we are losing that stimulas also. The fact the the rest of the world is starting to raise rates versus it looks like now we will have a Fed easing in March only compounds things. The big issue is really longer term. There are just too many problems with our trade imbalance and lack of population growth. Companies are merging and buying back stock not investing in Capital. The natural solution to this scenario is a weaker dollar so that the US can become more competative. The rest of the world doesn't want this and neither does the US consumer. We have been subsidizing our standard of living through a strong dollar (at least stronger than what I believe it should be). You only have to look at China to see this effect. They have fixed their currency and it has allowed us to buy those products at basically below market prices. This hurts us as we are at a loss competitive with them. Over time these issues work themslves out. I see problems with our Social programs and population (lack of) growth. A loss in Standard of Living US is probably good for everyone longer term. Shorter term I believe liquidity has created a potential for a drop in the US markets. Too much liquidity and capital has created a euphoric state of mind here. In a short term crisis we will see a flight to stability which is US dollar. Look at last years action in the Peso when we had problems. That I believe is when I want to convert more dollars to Pesos. I should have done more at 2,500 now I am looking at 2,235 and waiting for a good ratio. Hopefully I will see this in the next few months. However longer term I guess we will agree to disagree. As long as the FARC don't start bombing things in the near term then things look good for Colombia. They have the population, natural resources and location as well as a US goverment as an allied. However I do agree with you on this construction boom in Colombia. So there are issues in Colombia but if I plan on living there I need to plan and not live my life based on currencies.

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robi666 says on Dec 29, 2006, 10:40:

Living in a lower Estrato... And DG, you always point out GOOD reasons to live south! Maybe, there is not a truth... and it is only that some people just need to move again... :-)
Better to burn out than to fade away.

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Brians says on Dec 29, 2006, 10:46:

Bufalo I like those numbers but seems like a loan shark and not something I am interested. The banks so the same in the US and basically try to get as much as possible. If you woed lets say $250,000 on a $500,000 house and the bank sold it for $250,000 and you lost all your equity it would be criminal. There would be poeple including myself buying them up all day long. What happens is if they sell it for let's say $450,000 then you still get your $200,000 profit. I just want simplicity and properties are the best solution. Finding the right ones is the difficult part as I am in the USA and only looking around when I am down there which is also limited as I end up running around seeing family. My question really was is 8% a doable number because as it looks now I would end up moving before buying which I hate to do as I would rather have the money invested and generating a cash flow prior to the move.

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aztec says on Dec 29, 2006, 10:57:

Better pay closer attention to DG... ...regarding this statement "Many may not agree with this? But, anyway I beleive through observing my friends here conduct business and some of them are paying extortion by the way.... That if you operate a business with cash here you are going to be a prime target for this. If you are operating in debt, whether it is to the bank or to private lenders or just to the supplier they don't pay extortion (some do though) but they pay so much interest that they can't compete."

My wife's niece is here in the U.S. now on a TPS status. She received the call from the mob and was presented a proposal she could not refuse. It seems she could provide medical services to members of ELN or she could instead make periodic payments to them.

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robi666 says on Dec 29, 2006, 11:36:

Yes, Aztec, I do believe it! And if you provide medical services to members of ELN, you're dead anyway because of AUC... Where and when it was, Aztec? Just curious...
Anyway, Aztec, it's not the same everywhere and things are changing fast. I don't know if Spimigrace pays something to Mafia or Paracos, but I know people in Medellin who works and do not have any problems... it is not that I suggest to have a business here, infact I won't have one... too complicated and when you'll have some success, if you do not have problems, 100% you will have to be friend of the wrong people.
Have you been reading about Giorgio Sale and his sons? The owner of Enoteca, Made in Italy and "friend" of Salvatore Mancuso? Well, it is said like the "boss of Italian Mafia in Colombia", but, I promise to you, he's nothing more than a businessmen with some wrong friends and he could not avoid to handle a favour or two to them...

Better to burn out than to fade away.

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cleo0367 says on Dec 29, 2006, 11:43:

How about cost of living in Bucaramanga? Now I have an idea about Bogota, Medelin or Cali. How is Buca compared to those three? Estrata 4 or 5, 2 bedroom condo to own or rent, living expenses per month. Any idea guys?
PS-Sorry Brian if I stole your thread....my question is just related to yours.

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cleo0367 says on Dec 29, 2006, 11:48:

You might be right aztec. I know someone in US (I think I wrote about her in a thread, months ago)that after 4 years of leaving Colombia, still has to prostitute herself just in order to pay ransom. Now I wouldn't know how true the story is, but the fact they might follow you even here is scary.

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bufalo says on Dec 29, 2006, 19:13:

I never considered doing these types of loans either because I considered it sharking as well, I htought it was all mafia guys and such. But the truth is, this is normal, acceptable business down here. I would also (if I even do something like this) go easier on the percentage rate and do everything I could not to take away the property away.
As far as the banks are concerned, maybe in the US, they give you whatever is left after paying what is owed in a foreclosure, but as I understand it, down here the banks keep everything. Like your example, the bank would keep all 450,000. I will however, check into this. Anyone know about this?

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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Boatygringo says on Dec 30, 2006, 11:05:

US Dollar DG. I hope you are right about the dollar as I get paid in them, The fact is the US Dollar is not backed by any thing! Only the faith that the US will pay its debts. The Gold Standard was dropped years ago and the US mint is just printing paper dollars. Who knows if there is even any GOLD in Fort Nox. There are people much smarter than I who feel the Dollar is heading for the dumper if the US doesnt stop the Billion dollar deficits that occure every month. If China called in it's US debt, the US would be broke to morrow. Look around, what does the US make any more? All of the US car companies are loosing money while other import car companies in the US are profitable. Companies with the highest profits last year were Oil Companies, Insurance Companies Banks and Investment Companies. What does the US make? any more in real goods.
You can bet on the Dollar but I am betting on GOLD it has been on the rise for the last two years and is readily sold 24/7 if you own it in an E account. Boatygringo

Boatygringo

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Brians says on Dec 30, 2006, 17:02:

You know DG I start to respect you more and more with what you write. However we once again will agree to disagre and that is what makes the world great. Anyway Rubito we have to forget terrorism. The rest of the world has lived in this enviroment for ever and now we must learn to do so. The took down two buildings in NY and last year a hurricane wiped out our oil and natural gas infrastructure. The economy kep humming along. These issues don't bother me but something DG said does stick in my mind a bit. The Colombian economy is dependant on the USA for trade. We fall into the dumper then they may not be far behind. Where as Brazil and other econmies down south depend more on Asia for growth being commdity based countries. Colombia is losing the lost cost labor battle with those countries and I don't know how bad it will ultimately effect them. However taking a longer term perspective they are better positioned for growth than the USA just from a basic population stance and based on a competative currency. Shorter term issues such as a soft landing in the US is almost laughable for me. We have an inverted yield curve. We have a freshman Fed and Greenspan was never even able to neogtiate a soft landing. Here is a statistic that may scare DG a little about the US economy. There has NEVER beenand instance in the last 20 years where we have raised rates without a Finacial crisis of some sort. We still ave not had one. s it the Hedge Fund leverage? I dont know what it may be but there is an event out there. 16 Billion Dollars is the bonuses paid to Goldman Sacks employess this month. They are basically a Hedge Fund creator. I see excess and I smell an issue out there. The VIX indicator as measured on the CBOE hit an historic low two weeks ago. These measures risk premium in option pricing. Complacency is n everyone's minds. All 12 major market strategist are bullish. Lat time this happened 2000. Anyway I see some issues and little upside and some possible downside in the US. How this impacts Colombia I don't know. I am sure short term it will create more downside hwoever I stil feel functinaly they are better postioned for growth than the US for the next few years where the US is vulnerable. Remember our memories are short term. We only know what we remember but there are long periods of time where GDP in the US was negative or down. ANyway I am getting off on a tangent. I believe we have the best structure for wealth creation in the world. We are the greatest economy in the world. However unless we start letting some people immigrate here and growth our economy we are vulnerable to the rest of the world as they are catching on to what we have here.

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Brians says on Dec 30, 2006, 17:05:

Sory about my typos. I should proof read. I am writing while watching football:)

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spigrimace says on Jan 2, 2007, 07:49:

don´t just include his costs... This isn´t Brians´situation but generally, here´s what usually happens down here when the gringo comes to visit on vacation so you cannot just assume one´s personal costs because there are a lot of "extras" until the gringo finally learn to contain it.

Let´s really exaggerate or is it just extending the truth a bit...

This isn´t a bash on women, more how typically the guy let´s things spiral out of control...

You ask a girl out, and she always shows up with 42 friends with her. Doesn´t matter if it´s lunch, dinner, going to a finca, the coast, whatever.

Where do you want to go to lunch honey?....she says, that nice little place in Oviedo. Let´s get a bottle of wine. That bottle for $150.000 looks great. And I´ll have the langostinas in Bernaise sauce ($55.000 per plate), my 42 friends will have the same and (rubbning your inner thigh), my mother, aunt, abuelita, and 4 dogs love langostinos, let´s order 12 plates of it to bring home.

After lunch passing Studio F in Oviedo with hand on your crotch. Oh papi, I need a pair of jeans. Then not only jeans ($200.000, a blouse, a jacket, boots, accessories) coming out to about $650.000

She brought her kid too by the way....Get ready for mid January...Baby let go buy the books, pens, art supplies, uniform etc. for the kid´s school. $350.000

Somewhere the wine kicked in and she says the matricula is $250.000 and you say, that´s soooo cheap. I´ll pay it dear! By the way, her kid goes to a government school where it´s like $60000 for the matricula.

Then let´s get capuchinos coffe at MC Cafe...$30.000

I want tickets to the Juan Fernando Velasquez concert for us and my sisters. Of course vip seats $320.000

Let´s go to 4 seasons for dinner (just repeat lunch and double the price)

What club do you want to go to dear?.....Mangos (saying it nonchalent like she goes there every weekend and then brings her 42 friends, her cousins, her sisters, uncles, etc) let´s drink Old Parr all night long....Bill $750.000

Onthe way out, oh that cute cowgirl hat, ice bucket, t-shirts all are sooo cute! Another $120.000

No problem dear I´ll pay for your taxi home. How much is it for that 3 km ride? Oh just take this 20 mil.

On her way into the taxi.. oh honey The girl´s coming over tommorrow to clean mom´s house, give me 30 mil to give her.

the gringo schleps back to your hotel room happy as a clam as he will get laid in the next few days. And we didnt´include the 15 times you gave a few mil to each beggar and maybe the gringo bought himself a few things as well during the day.

Repeat for everyday for the rest of his life or until he´s broke.

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spigrimace says on Jan 2, 2007, 07:59:

8% new taxi 55 millones. 2 shifts a a day and the driver´s pay you $50.000 each shift and gas it up at the end of the shift. $100.000 a day for 30 days is $3 millones a month. Costs: insurance, accidents, downtime, thefts, parking at night, new axles, clutches, brakes every 2 months, taxes, licenses, re-upholstry, tires every 3 months as this thing will have like 150.000 km´s a year on it. It can beat 8% when said and done though.

Wanna drive it? jajaja

Sure you don´t want to help me expand to Cali or Bogota?

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aztec says on Jan 2, 2007, 08:08:

spigrimace, what you say is true. Eventually however, you get tired of being the local bank. You learn how to control the costs by recognizing when you are being used. Even some of the closest family members will assume gringos have plenty of money and should not object to loaning/sharing these funds.

You will need to acquire a thick skin because it is difficult to see so much poverty and realize with a little effort you can help.

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robi666 says on Jan 2, 2007, 08:56:

Spimigrace,
I had a friend Spimigrace,
I had a friend who used to spend everything he had in his pocket. Whatever it was. 10 dollars... gone. 100... gone in one night. 500 or 1000... you bet it! He had really a weird attitude... So funny.
Ok, but we're talking about complete idiots here... I admit that they exist somewhere. But they would spend same money anywhere... not just in Colombia.
Better to burn out than to fade away.

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bufalo says on Jan 2, 2007, 11:11:

Spimigrace - that was just too funny (and so true).

I hear the taxi thing is ok too, but when I look at it, I don't see how it can be profitable. How long is the car going to run?

Are you looking to expand? I'm debating packing it in alltogether, but looking for something to keep me around if at all possible. What are you trying to expand, need help?

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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spigrimace says on Jan 3, 2007, 05:24:

I dont know about the taxis I knew a German guy that had 7 used taxis and simply parked them in his driveway, garage and around his house but he sold and moved to Cartagena. He said it was profitable but like all business there were always headaches & pains in the butt.

Maybe like the buses there are taxi administrators that do everything and you simply pick up your cash and they take a %. Maybe simply call one of the taxi numbers and ask for an administrator, make some chit chat and if it seems like they administrate, maybe ask for a cita, buy them lunch and get the 411.

As for what I do, it´s a sports bar/restaurant. It´s long hours, low pay if there´s anything left at the end of the month. But you get to meet nice guys and make friends in the likes of Brians. I run around buying all the stuff for the restaurant, fixing things, doing home deliveries, marketing, administration, clean toilets, whatever and everything. We survived 9 months when I got royally screwed and the Colombian soccer league was not being televised but we came back big when TV came back and Nacional & Medellin both made the playoffs. December was a record sales month and in February will hit that magic 2 year mark. I have some guys begging for sports in Cali & Cartegena. But funny that 98% of my clients are Colombians. Soccer is easily number one, then RUGBY believe it or not, and then American Football. We just started promoting Basketball as we can get every NBA game and the ESPN Full Court programming is like overkill and being near the U de M helps as that´s the only real arena to see basketball here so we´ll try and market to those fans. Baseball is next to dead here but may be more supported on the coast and of all things I need to start getting into transmitting is "Lucha Libre" as there seems to be some demand there. Everyone thinks I cater to the gringo but it´s far from the truth. I know most of my clients are Colombian. All think Parque Lleras! Why not go there closer to the gringos? I see every bar & restaurant there with a big screen and they show the Colombian games. And for the record for the NFL on a typical sunday it´s 75% COLOMBIAN, 25% gringo! So why am I would I cater explicitly to the gringo as I cannot even get many here to see bowl games which are exclusively on Direc tv or ESPN Gameplan? Where I am, I am the only place with height and size and I have room to put 2 more bug screens upstairs on the 2nd floor which can get me about another 50 seats. From one side of me Its like 2 miles down to La Mota for the next big screen and they cannot seat too many. The other way has some bars & restaurants with screens but their building have poles in the way and low height issues and cannot seat many and I´m the only one marketing it threu radio ads and flyers,etc. We can get 150 people to see the 2 screens while most place maybe can get 40 to see their one screeen. And this side of the river is building up quick. La Mota, Loma de los bernal, club rodeo, etc. Things are looking up.

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bufalo says on Jan 3, 2007, 05:40:

Surprised to hear that most clients are colombians, but with a lot of gringos moving there, that may change. Baseball would definitely be bigger on the coast. Maybe not anything worthwile, but more so than in the interior. You said Lucha Libre, did you mean wrestling or more Ultimate Fighting? I'd say Ultimate Fighting would be better to promote, but have no idea if that runs pay-per-view or whatever you have. It started running lately on FX and people here love it (the guys anyway).

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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Simon says on Jan 3, 2007, 08:44:

What's a "superbowl"? Is it like a really big bowl of fruit?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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bufalo says on Jan 3, 2007, 08:53:

No, it's an oversized toilet to pacify the lawsuit hungry fat-asses that live in the states who are always on diets yet don't understand the simple idea of eating right and excercising.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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spigrimace says on Jan 3, 2007, 15:31:

DonGringo Superbowl fanfare..guess again! DG if you´re in Medlelin, come to my place as we usually get a crowd of over 100 because everyone comes out of the woodwork for that one!

We´ll have the BCS championship game on as well which is only available with Direc TV this year and and only a handful here stayed after the Rose Bowl to watch the hollywood movie, oops I mean game between Boise State & Oklahoma.

I expect 50+ for the BCS game. Maybe more as again it´s only available on Direc TV

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gringolondinense says on Jan 4, 2007, 08:33:

actually Don funny you should mention gold.... those socialist bastards i.e. tony blair and gordon brown have already begun selling of large quantities of our gold reserves, but on the quiet.

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vicshere says on Jan 4, 2007, 11:21:

hey Brians I have been here for 5 years now
the cost of your living depends on where you live and how you what to live
a gringo can live on 1,000,000 per month on the low side and as high as well as you want to live...as for me I cant see spending $3,000 to $4,000 US a month that's like 8,000,000 a month.... that's a nice living if you have the money as for me I can seam to live on around 1,000,000 to 1,200,000 remember I own my own home
here's an example for Bucaramanga estrato #3 --2 adults daughter and a baby
phone with internet 90,000
power 40,000 no A/C
gas 31,000 hot water
water 39,000
house taxes 20,000
home maintance 30,000
car taxes 20,000
car insurance 20,000
motorcycle taxes 20,000
motorcycle insurance 20,000
gas 70,000 don't drive much
vehicle maintance 50,000
school fees 20,000
school supplies 20,000
kids clothes 100,000
adult clothes 100,000
fruits and vegetables 120,000
dry goods 250,000
miscellaneous 100,000
TOTAL 1,160,000

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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vicshere says on Jan 4, 2007, 12:09:

oops forgot health insurnace 60,000
dont think i forgot anything else did i???

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 12:29:

Can someone still get crabs if they are shaved?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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vicshere says on Jan 4, 2007, 12:42:

of course not but u need to shave your asshole too

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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Brians says on Jan 4, 2007, 12:42:

Thanks Vicshere but a couple of things I need to factor in are I am in Estrato 6 so I don't know what the difference would be. I also plan to return to USA once a year for two weeks. I need two cars or at least a scooter and a car (I love scooters). This will be it for me. Once I walk away there is no turning back so I need to make sure it lasts. I really feel like things like what if my kids (hopefully soon) want to go to university in the US etc.. These things weigh on me. I want to make sure that I have these covered as well. Right now it looks good but I think I need to wait. I spoke with robi off board and my wife and it looks like I need to just wait it out. Loss too much b going now. It bums me out as I will probably be that guy who gets hit by a bus in two years and never got to sit back and enjoy life. However I am so close to the finish line it is kind of silly to bail now. Thanks for all the guidance and help. I will probably write the same post in a year:) I am 41 in August. "D" Day for me is 45. That makes all these numbers an after thought. I also may be able to negotiate a extended leave in two summers and then split finally in the following summer. So when I look at it I really can start to make the transition about 2 1/2 years which I guess isn't so bad.

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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 13:26:

Don, I wish I had your optimism on the US dollar. I just don't see it, especailly when you have the Federal reserve signaling they will probably not lower rates this year, because of inflationary worries. These guys have 14 year terms so they don't give a shit about what Bush thinks. Does not sound like a whole lot of confidence on the dollar coming from the fed. Also the UAE(oil rich country) also anounced they will drastically reduce their dollar reserves. Here is the problem as I see it with the U.S. dollar. Countries that are net Oil importers are forced to purchase using dollars, not the currency of the country which they are buying the oil from. This makes the Dollar the reserve currency of the world, and artificially inflated in value as opposed to being a true floating currency. The Euro is not a reserve currency and now has higher value than the USD. that is very appealing. The fact that some countries will start trading energy commodities in Euro's means that more dollars will be released into circulation, more dollars available means lower value of the dollar. So at least in the short run the Euro is a good investment decision over the falling dollar. As far as Deficits, I am not sure who is lying to you but they are far from under control. Both trade and budget deficits. We did better the last quarter of 2006 but that is far from being under control. I think that in the Short term Euro is an excellent investment choice over the dollar. Anyone who is smart though knows that diversification is the key to a good investment strategy. Can't just have everything in Euro's,just like you should not just own stock in one company, but several. The dollar is still very strong over most currencies of course but the near future is a little bleak. 80% of my retirement is in dollars denominated assets so trust me, I am the last person who wants to see it lose it's value. Also keep in mind that Capitalism is about making money even if you have to sell your country to make more. I would invest in rental properties of big cities in Colombia but would stick to estrato 2-3 since they are cheaper and where most colombians in the big cities live.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 13:40:

"I need two cars or at least a scooter and a car (I love scooters). " I am just wondering why someone in Colombia would need two cars? I could see that in the U.S. suburbs because both man and wife have to commute to different jobs but why in Colombia. Think about it and I am pretty sure you and your wife can get by on one car in Colombia.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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vicshere says on Jan 4, 2007, 13:42:

strato 6 sucks ok my thoughts on strato 6
I think its bullshit... too many people with there finger up their nose and ass too
anyway costs for starto 6 or lets say an estimate for Bucaramanga
phone with internet 160,000
power 90,000 no A/C
gas 80,000 hot water
water 90,000
house taxes 60,000
home maintance 90,000
car taxes 20,000
car insurance 20,000
motorcycle taxes 20,000
motorcycle insurance 20,000
gas 70,000
vehicle maintance 50,000
school fees 400,000
school supplies 60,000
kids clothes 300,000
adult clothes 200,000
fruits and vegetables 180,000
dry goods 300,000
miscellaneous 200,000

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 13:58:

You are telling me that taxes/insurance for Cars is the same as motorcycles? That country has so much red tape it almost competes with Brazil. I agree with whoever said that Colombia is screwed if U.S. growth slows. That is a major flaw I see with Uribe's (and previous presidents) economic agenda. He is extending Colombia's dependency on a single country. BAD MOVE. Colombia's geographic position is situated where it has access to U.S., European, and Asian countries. Yet all colombian leaders fail to take advantage of this. I really thought that Uribe, being a proponent of markets would change this but has made it worse. Doesn't he know that all he needed to bow down to King George was to support the Iraq war and the money wil keep coming.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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robi666 says on Jan 4, 2007, 14:59:

Vic
just a couple of Vic
just a couple of things:
1) Car insurance: if you have a new car, then you want to have full coverage. Also, with the Seguro del Estado, which only cover injuries on people, what happen if you make a big damage? You pay from your own pocket money.
2) Healthy insurance = EPS. Some people want to have medicina prepagada.
3) Home taxes and administration. More... much more.
4) Gas. I would say more...

It is just something, but, as already said, monthly budget is something that really depends on your pocket...

what we do in life... echoes in eternity.

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vicshere says on Jan 4, 2007, 15:18:

hey rob those are my costs
never said I had a new car
insurance as far as I am concerned is for stupid people
my insurance is a good mutual fund account
my EPS gives me all the services I need dental hospital pediatrician regular doctors and even my heart specialist
country wide service to...what more do I want for 60,000 a month
I did say I don't drive the car much ...instead drive the motorcycle more cheaper on gas
and those are my home taxes in a strato 3 believe me or not
my house doesn't have administration

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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robi666 says on Jan 4, 2007, 15:26:

Vic calm down, I was referring to your estimation of estrato 6 home costs, like I did not say that you have a new car... anyway those are your cost, none says the contrary. But I was just thinking that maybe someone live in a different way...
Thanks for the stupid and I am glad you're happy! :-)

what we do in life... echoes in eternity.

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robi666 says on Jan 4, 2007, 15:56:

Ok, Vic, I explain that about the insurance...
I own a new F150. I drive a lot, and I use the car for carrying stuff that I need for my finca near Tayrona, from Medellin, to Puerto Berrio, to Valdivia, to Sincelejo, to Puerto Triunfo and Rioacha (hey... I am not buying pasta and processing coke! :-)).
Made 19,000 kms in 5 months.
The insurance cost is 3 millions per year. In 5 months, I had 7 millions of damages on the car, covered by the insurance. Why? Have you ever driven around Colombia? Just one thing, the front mirror was broken two times...

what we do in life... echoes in eternity.

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vicshere says on Jan 4, 2007, 16:15:

hey rob actually I just got back from a trip to Cali and B/venura
round trip 2,800 kms do I drive a lot,,,actually yes I have drive in enough countries to know how to drive in them.....driving in Colombia is easy as shit I don't know why so many chicken shits around here complaint about driving conditions....in 5 years I have had no accidents a few close ones but knock on wood nothing.....when I was in Canada I always bought the most minimum insurance possible by law.....here I do the same....I never park my car on the street it always park in a save place...if there is no safe parking take a cab its easy. the first year I was here I paid the all risk insurance it cost I think 900,000 by the third year I stopped buying it no use and no need....now if my wife was to drive then that's a different story
and you have 7,000,000 damages to your truck woow...sorry but I have to say your a bad driver

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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robi666 says on Jan 4, 2007, 17:46:

Yes, I am a bad driver... well I just did not learn how to avoid pebbles thrown by a truck on my front mirror (each time they changed the front mirror is 3.600.000)... if you're good at that, than you must be really good Vic, sure that you're second name is not Schumaker? Well, you're Canadian, sure that your second name is not Villeneuve? (Jack not Gilles, touching wood :-))
I don't have problem driving, reallly. But I wouldn't say that driving here is the safest thing to do... I mean, just look at the roads.
Again about insurance... do you know which is the maximum that they'll pay if you kill someone? 600 days of minimum salary = less than 4.000 USD!!!. For permanent handicap, around 2000 USD. Of course they won't pay anything for a damage. Well, I think this is something they will have to change... be happy with your SOAT, but if you hit somebody or seriously damage a car, you are in big trouble my friend!
what we do in life... echoes in eternity.

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robi666 says on Jan 5, 2007, 00:36:

Jesus Rubito,i didn't smoke Jesus Rubito,
i didn't smoke anything yet, tough the crippy (know what I am talking about?) in my drawer keeps calling me ;-)
Why are you putting in my mouth words that I did not say?
I am NOT telling WHAT Vic SPENDS or that he is bullshitting us. Read well my and his posts...
1) Vic wrote: "anyway costs for starto 6 or lets say an estimate for Bucaramanga"
Vic is not living in estrato 6, but made an estimation of it. I was just telling him what was wrong with that estimation: home costs. That is: Predial and Administration. Dot.
2) Vic pays a SOAT (Seguro Obligatorio para Accidentes de Tránsito) for his car. I don't want to go to Colombia. I LIVE in Colombia. I know Colombian roads. I think, differently of what he thinks, that it is a good idea to have an extra insurance, not just the SOAT that is almost useless in case you damage a car or you seriously hit someone.
3) Vic is paying for a POS (Plan Obligatorio de Salud) to an EPS (Entidades Promotoras de Salud). I feel better paying for a Medicina Prepagada, like many people of this board (i.e. sure the OP would feel comfortable making a Prepagada for his family).

Ufff... I try my best but I am beginning to think that my English has gone really bad...

what we do in life... echoes in eternity.

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Brians says on Jan 5, 2007, 04:53:

Wow it always amazes me how things blow up here Vic thank you for your estimate but I spoke with my cousin and uncle and the administration and taxes were a little light like Robi mentioned. I don't know about insurance but even in the USA I have an umbrella policy. I know lawsuits are not an issue in Colombia like here but I also agree with Robi in better safe than sorry. I guess Cali might be right and I only need one car but I wanted to have some sort of work like teaching english. My wife would be home so I was just thinking like we are now. She and I both have cars in the US. I guess I could just use one or get a cycle like I have here. I know Robi and his lifestyle is very similiar to what I want in Colombia. I only have his estimates and wanted to see other people's opinions. Thanks to everyone. Vic I know you have your opinions of Estrato 6 but the reason we bought there was location to her family (around the corner) and of course it is very nice area. Most of her aunts and uncles on her mom's side live Estrato 3. Her father's side all live Estrato 6. Anyway it doesn't matter the fact was I don't really feel any differently about either side of the family. They both love to just have a good time. Maybe when I live there I will see more I don't like however here in the USA I live in on of the Wealthliest zip codes in the USA. The people are as blue blood as they come tracing their family trees back to the US Revolution. My wife is probably the only Colombiana livinf within a 10 mile radius. These people don't bither me now or her. We do our thing like hang out in the city going to salsa clubs etc.. The main reason we want to move back is my desire to get out of this rat race and raise our family with her family. Therefore I think it would be important to live near her Mom. Anyway that is the long version of why I live there and why I wanted that estimate.

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CarlGoingtoPeriera says on Jan 8, 2007, 12:08:

Good luck pal!! Mate! I think you need to discover her family first. Live next to her mum - ouch! ouch!! ouch!!! Good luck!!

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