Visiting Americans; Usually Leave Too Much Of a Tip So Stop It!

griffbos says on May 30, 2007, 11:46:

hmmm I have to say it is up to the person wether to tip or not and how much, if you want to be cheap be cheap if you want to be generous then be so it is your money to do with

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Man Tequila says on May 30, 2007, 11:47:

You want to talk about this AGAIN? Seems to come up every coupla months.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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cayita says on May 30, 2007, 12:01:

most restaurants include the tip. So I bet most forigners double tip. It is called "propina" and you can see it on the check, that is enough.
If not there leave a couple mil or something if you want. I never tip in Taxis or anywhere else really. Maybe the supermarket if they take my groceries to my door and delivery guys. That's it.

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panthdave says on May 30, 2007, 12:13:

Restaurants Propina is Clear on the Receipts I do tip a couple pesos when they delivery the food to my apartment and never tip restaurants most of the time its included unless I am at fancy resaurant and the waiter or waitress and the service was excellent.. I round up to taxis..Example 4300 just give 5 mil..Never in the lower end restaurants, bars, or discos...Well I did tip once a bartender who serviced me all night and did an excellent job with the drinks and quick service but not alot. I throw a few pesos when the baggage handler at Carrefour helps me to a taxi too forgot about that...

Thats about it...which I don't think is out of hand on tips..

If your at a hotel and the concierge does an excellent job during your stay you might want throw a few pesos..

Biggest One is the Restaurants which the receipt will say propina charge separately similar to South Beach...in Miami..

panthdave Miami

panthdave Miami

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gringoloid says on May 30, 2007, 12:22:

Earlier this year we went to an amusement park and zoo about 40 km north Bogota. The taxi driver had to fill out a lot of paper work for the trip, about 15 minutes worth. He then slept in his car all day while we enjoyed the park.

On the way back, the autopiste was closed so he had to take septima all the back which was a pain in the ass.

So we get back and I gave him an extra 10.000 cop because I felt he went above and beyond the call of duty.

So the driver says.....may God bless the ground you and your family walk on....etc, etc,. So I can tell he didn't expect the extra money.
He was still going on like that after I got out of the car.

So for $5 bucks or so, this guy went on with gratefulness like I've never seen anywhere.

I can see I overtipped, and I don't miss the money, but how do you know?

BTW, I worked my way through college as a waiter.

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gringoloid says on May 30, 2007, 12:27:

Miamimike....... Me and DG were in a taxi one night and the driver tried to rip us off really bad. DG has had some bad experiences with service people and may not take to kindly to them.

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toneloc24 says on May 30, 2007, 12:54:

Not gonna harp too much on it Most foreigners to Colombia, and this generally applies to people from the USA, choose not to read their receipts, esp. at the more modernized establishments where the 10% standard tip is already included. This IS the culture in Colombia. It's been there before I began going there, and will be there after I leave. No one thinks any differently of you for that 10% tip. These folks CHOOSE to double tip. Their perogative.

Sometimes it's thought of as generous, most times as stupid and careless. Believe what you want, but the proof is in the pudding. Why do you think the two-tier price structure (regular prices and "gringo" prices) thrives so much and in so many places? I can't blame them, I just won't be a victim of it.

I do believe in tipping well, but ONLY when someone goes over and above normal service. And I explain to them why I'm doing it. Standard service, standard tip.

So now, when people are hitting you (foreigners) with "gringo" prices, it's because of the expectations set forth by those who previously needlessly gave away money. There's the reason why many visiting Americans are treated as bottomless wallets, rather than regarded as normal people.

Just cause and effect.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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Ekdog says on May 30, 2007, 13:22:

Global Peace Index First Global Peace Index Ranks 121 Countries

Norway tops list, U.S. comes in at 96

WASHINGTON, May 30 /PRNewswire/ -- The first study to rank countries
around the world according to their peacefulness and the drivers that
create and sustain their peace was launched today. The Global Peace Index
studied 121 countries from Algeria to Zimbabwe and its publication comes
one week before the leaders of the world's richest countries gather for the
G8 summit in Germany to discuss issues of global concern.
The rankings show that even among the G8 countries there are
significant differences in peacefulness: While Japan was the most peaceful
of the G8 countries, at a rank of five in the Index, Russia neared the
bottom at number 118. The Global Peace Index also reveals that countries
which had a turbulent time for parts of the twentieth century, such as
Ireland and Germany, have emerged as peace leaders in the 21st century.
The Economist Intelligence Unit measured countries' peacefulness based
on wide range of indicators - 24 in all - including ease of access to
"weapons of minor destruction" (guns, small explosives), military
expenditure, local corruption, and the level of respect for human rights.
After compiling the Index, the researchers examined it for patterns in
order to identify the "drivers" that make for peaceful societies. They
found that peaceful countries often shared high levels of democracy and
transparency of government, education and material well-being. While the
U.S. possesses many of these characteristics, its ranking was brought down
by its engagement in warfare and external conflict, as well as high levels
of incarceration and homicide. The U.S.'s rank also suffered due to the
large share of military expenditure from its GDP, attributed to its status
as one of the world's military-diplomatic powers.
The main findings of the Global Peace Index are:

-- Peace is correlated to indicators such as income, schooling and the
level of regional integration
-- Peaceful countries often shared high levels of transparency of
government and low corruption
-- Small, stable countries which are part of regional blocs are most
likely to get a higher ranking
The Index is the brainchild of Australian IT entrepreneur and
philanthropist Steve Killelea.
"The objective of the Global Peace Index was to go beyond a crude
measure of wars by systematically exploring the texture of peace,"
explained Global Peace Index President, Mr. Clyde McConaghy, speaking in
Washington. "The Index provides a quantitative measure of peacefulness that
is comparable over time, and we hope it will inspire and influence world
leaders and governments to further action."
The Index has already won the support of an influential and
distinguished group of supporters, many of whom are dedicated to promoting
global peace, including former U.S. President James Carter, the Dalai Lama,
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Sir Richard Branson and Harriet Fulbright of the
Fulbright Centre.
"This Index stands to broaden our very definition of what peace is, as
well as how to achieve it," said Fulbright. "Peace isn't just the absence
of war; it's the absence of violence."
"Countries need to become more peaceful to solve the major challenges
that the world faces - from climate change to overpopulation and
sustainability," said Mr. McConaghy.
"We hope that the findings of the Global Peace Index will act as a
catalyst for increased funding to study peace and for governments and
industry to take policy action," he added.
NOTES TO EDITORS
-- The Global Peace Index covers 121 countries.
-- The Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), the country intelligence
division of The Economist Group that publishes The Economist newspaper,
has compiled the Index.
-- The EIU used all its country analysts in gathering and scoring the
data, in collaboration with its contributor network of 650 people.
-- The Index is made up of nearly 3,000 data points with another 4,000
relating to the drivers of peace (6897 in total).
-- The Global Peace Index has been peer reviewed by an international panel
of the world's leading peace experts.
-- Steve Killelea is an Australian IT entrepreneur and philanthropist. He
is the Chairman and Founder of Integrated Research Ltd. He founded his
charity, The Charitable Foundation (TCF), in 2000.
-- TCF specializes in working with the poorest communities in the world
and is currently active in ten countries including Rwanda, Uganda,
Laos, Burma and East Timor.



121 GPI rankings

Countries most at peace ranked first


Rank Country Score
1 Norway 1.357
2 New Zealand 1.363
3 Denmark 1.377
4 Ireland 1.396
5 Japan 1.413
6 Finland 1.447
7 Sweden 1.478
8 Canada 1.481
9 Portugal 1.481
10 Austria 1.483
11 Belgium 1.498
12 Germany 1.523
13 Czech Republic 1.524
14 Switzerland 1.526
15 Slovenia 1.539
16 Chile 1.568
17 Slovakia 1.571
18 Hungary 1.575
19 Bhutan 1.611
20 Netherlands 1.620
21 Spain 1.633
22 Oman 1.641
23 Hong Kong 1.657
24 Uruguay 1.661
25 Australia 1.664
26 Romania 1.682
27 Poland 1.683
28 Estonia 1.684
29 Singapore 1.692
30 Qatar 1.702
31 Costa Rica 1.702
32 South Korea 1.719
33 Italy 1.724
34 France 1.729
35 Vietnam 1.729
36 Taiwan 1.731
37 Malaysia 1.744
38 United Arab
Emirates 1.747
39 Tunisia 1.762
40 Ghana 1.765
41 Madagascar 1.766
42 Botswana 1.786
43 Lithuania 1.788
44 Greece 1.791
45 Panama 1.798
46 Kuwait 1.818
47 Latvia 1.848
48 Morocco 1.893
49 United Kingdom 1.898
50 Mozambique 1.909
51 Cyprus 1.915
52 Argentina 1.923
53 Zambia 1.930
54 Bulgaria 1.936
55 Paraguay 1.946
56 Gabon 1.952
57 Tanzania 1.966
58 Libya 1.967
59 Cuba 1.968
60 China 1.980
61 Kazakhstan 1.995
62 Bahrain 1.995
63 Jordan 1.997
64 Namibia 2.003
65 Senegal 2.017
66 Nicaragua 2.020
67 Croatia 2.030
68 Malawi 2.038
69 Bolivia 2.052
70 Peru 2.056
71 Equatorial
Guinea 2.059
72 Moldova 2.059
73 Egypt 2.068
74 Dominican
Republic 2.071
75 Bosnia and
Herzegovina 2.089
76 Cameroon 2.093
77 Syria 2.106
78 Indonesia 2.111
79 Mexico 2.125
80 Ukraine 2.150
81 Jamaica 2.164
82 Macedonia 2.170
83 Brazil 2.173
84 Serbia 2.181
85 Cambodia 2.197
86 Bangladesh 2.219
87 Ecuador 2.219
88 Papua New
Guinea 2.223
89 El Salvador 2.244
90 Saudi Arabia 2.246
91 Kenya 2.258
92 Turkey 2.272
93 Guatemala 2.285
94 Trinidad and
Tobago 2.286
95 Yemen 2.309
96 United States
of America 2.317
97 Iran 2.320
98 Honduras 2.390
99 South Africa 2.399
100 Philippines 2.428
101 Azerbaijan 2.448
102 Venezuela 2.453
103 Ethiopia 2.479
104 Uganda 2.489
105 Thailand 2.491
106 Zimbabwe 2.495
107 Algeria 2.503
108 Myanmar 2.524
109 India 2.530
110 Uzbekistan 2.542
111 Sri Lanka 2.575
112 Angola 2.587
113 Cote d'Ivoire 2.638
114 Lebanon 2.662
115 Pakistan 2.697
116 Colombia 2.770
117 Nigeria 2.898
118 Russia 2.903
119 Israel 3.033
120 Sudan 3.182
121 Iraq 3.437


SOURCE Global Peace Index

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morphus says on May 30, 2007, 13:27:

Not Me Gringo duro here. I was eating a 5 mil peso plate of bandeja en Poblado. When the lady brought me the check, I gave her exactly 5 mil pesos and she seemed to be flusted.

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cayita says on May 30, 2007, 13:33:

Rubito Tip for delivery yes there is usually a mil or maybe two in there but these guys usually use their own motorbikes to deliver this and to me that does not seem fair, after they pay for the bike and pay for gas. I tip a little more for that reason. Oh yea the water guy get's a tip.

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Waterdawg says on May 30, 2007, 13:58:

Cayita Do you really think that Server gets that " propina " Maybe a portion , small ! Oh , and yea , these people you are talking about are just making a killer of a wage too ..

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Cerealkiller says on May 30, 2007, 14:03:

I always tip 10% or maybe a little bit more but never over 15%. I say when in rome do as romans do. If I am in the states I tip more, because that is how it works there. So It kinda bothers me when people go to colombia and completely ignore the way things work there. Tipping clearly is a voluntary thing, but generally speaking people in Colombia are quite friendly, in restaurants, clubs, bars etc etc. They do not expect you to tip loads yet they are extremely nice, just because that is the way Colombians are. It is in places with tons of foreign tourists, like Cartagena (Cafe del Mar to be exact) where service is shit because they know they will get tipped anyway. Taxi drivers ask you up front to pay them more than the agreed fare because "they drove you promptly"... isnt that part of the freaking job anyway? If anything overtipping does not make people do their job better. It is definitely one of the things I feel tourism is killing...people's good will to treat you in a friendly manner just because thats the way they are.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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cayita says on May 30, 2007, 14:12:

waterdawg so your saying that I should support a corrupt system by paying the propina added in and then pay over and above that amount. Excuse me but if you start tipping over and above you are encouraging this type of thievery or to empty out my wallet.
I imagine you are one of those people that feel anyone that has any money should give it all away to those who don't?
I went there to eat not to make a statement or change the world. The tip money is shared with the staff. If not then their are ways for the staff to get justice.
??? DO you live in Colombia on Colombian wages when you are so generous or are you a gringo making dollars and then coming here and changing them for pesos? Unless you are living here permanently and making a Colombian wage only here...shut your mouth.

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aztec says on May 30, 2007, 14:16:

SOURCE Global Peace Index Seems to be a worthless and meaningless survey. Curious if the people conducting the survey used a government grant. Certainly an excellent way for spending tax monies.

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gringoloid says on May 30, 2007, 14:29:

I don't think that this ripping off of gringos is limited to colombia or even latin america. Natives rip off tourists no matter where they are in the world, including the United States. Have you ever had any car repairs done far from home?

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miamimike says on May 30, 2007, 15:03:

cayita, Morphus, CKiller--spot on! This overtipping beyond the Norm ruins it for the rest of us who may (if service merits it)leave a just tip.


Not Me
Gringo duro here. I was eating a 5 mil peso plate of bandeja en Poblado. When the lady brought me the check, I gave her exactly 5 mil pesos and she seemed to be flusted.

By morphus at Wed, 05/30/2007 - 20:27 | reply


By cayita at Wed, 05/30/2007 - 20:33 | reply


By Waterdawg at Wed, 05/30/2007 - 20:58 | reply
I always tip 10% or maybe a
I always tip 10% or maybe a little bit more but never over 15%. I say when in rome do as romans do. If I am in the states I tip more, because that is how it works there. So It kinda bothers me when people go to colombia and completely ignore the way things work there. Tipping clearly is a voluntary thing, but generally speaking people in Colombia are quite friendly, in restaurants, clubs, bars etc etc. They do not expect you to tip loads yet they are extremely nice, just because that is the way Colombians are. It is in places with tons of foreign tourists, like Cartagena (Cafe del Mar to be exact) where service is shit because they know they will get tipped anyway. Taxi drivers ask you up front to pay them more than the agreed fare because "they drove you promptly"... isnt that part of the freaking job anyway? If anything overtipping does not make people do their job better. It is definitely one of the things I feel tourism is killing...people's good will to treat you in a friendly manner just because thats the way they are.

By Cerealkiller at Wed, 05/30/2007 - 21:03 | reply
waterdawg
so your saying that I should support a corrupt system by paying the propina added in and then pay over and above that amount. Excuse me but if you start tipping over and above you are encouraging this type of thievery or to empty out my wallet.
I imagine you are one of those people that feel anyone that has any money should give it all away to those who don't?
I went there to eat not to make a statement or change the world. The tip money is shared with the staff. If not then their are ways for the staff to get justice.
??? DO you live in Colombia on Colombian wages when you are so generous or are you a gringo making dollars and then coming here and changing them for pesos? Unless you are living here permanently and making a Colombian wage only here...shut your mouth.

===================================================================

Unjustified large tips ruin the Natives, once someone starts it, then it is expected behavior from all of us. And it is ruined for us as service may be witheld unless a Large Tip is left(by their standards). Then it filters down into other aspects of life like at the Drycleaners, repairmen, seamstress, Barber, hairdresser ect. Better to do as the natives do and if not sure, ask one what(if any)Tip is appropiate,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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toneloc24 says on May 30, 2007, 15:08:

Seriously Gringoloid Why do you think this is? That the rest of the world are just crooks and us Americans are the only fine, upstanding people in the world??? Pointless precedents were set.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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ujay says on May 30, 2007, 15:40:

Tipping should be prohibited, banned, period. You know tipping is a pain in the ass. Let the friggin' employers pay them higher wages. I can pour my own friggin' drink, pack my own groceries, pick up my own plate at the restuarant and take it back. You people in these service jobs who think you deserve a tip and think yourselves useful. You're not. We can do everything you are doing for us. We don't even need you.

We the customer should never tip. This is a bollocks American practice because most Americans were brain washed to think tips is a way of life since they had that bell boy job, or waiter job, or some other services job, or god forbid rode a taxi. American Taxi drivers are the worst spoiled people. It's not the consumers problem that people have low pay and tips make up for the wages the thieving greedy employer should be paying.

I know I will always get an American disagree with me on this. Can't argue with someone who's been brain washed and cultured in the tipping capital of the world.

I don't mind it all if they just mark up 10 or 15% on every menu, on every item, and every drink, at every hotel in the world, so the tip is always included in the price and I don't have to estimate what percentage to tip the ungrateful bastard who is never satisfied no matter how much you give them. Let the employer deal with that. Just include it in the price and markup of items. And let him/her tip his employees.

We have to buy the overpriced item, we pay IVA or TAX or VAT on this item, and then we to calculate 10 or 15% as well. This is just dumb ass.

All you do is spoil people and make them come to expect a tip always. And when they don't get one. They get pissed. And when they do get one, they want more. They will always want more. They become a blood sucking vampire greedy for tips. And will begin to judge people by how much tip they get. Just go anywhere in American and sit down to eat something to see this in effect.

All it breeds is a community of Tip Whores.

Tipping is the worst invention ever. And stresses you out no matter where you go, unless you are millionaire with money just flowing out your pockets and don't give a damn how much you spend because you will never be poor or worry about being poor. In that case why don't you just donate all of your excess cash and feel good about yourself for a couple of months.

So all tipping does is spoil people. Like giving a little kid candy on the street. Every time he sees you he will always want candy, will only think about you in terms of how much candy you are going to give him. You spoil the person. And this is how guys spoil women too. Guys that know noting better but to buy and lavish her with gifts, hoping he'll get something in return or guarantee she will never leave him, because he can provide. It's human nature to take advantage and tipping only encourages this innate nature that is within us. That is why I say ban tipping across the globe.

Tipping should not be allowed. Period. Fiji doesn't accept tips, neither does Japan. And there are signs at the airport telling you not to tip. It's not our problem some countries have these shitty service jobs with less than minimum wages. Not our problem corporations take advantage of this tipping strategy to pay low wages and pass the responsibility onto you the consumer then wash your brain by making you think tipping is natural. And that if you don't tip you are a cheap skate. Well you've brainwashed to think that. While they reap in the million dollar salaries you are paying your income on tipping.

That isn't right. You really have to question your beliefs on this tipping practice.

Besides if the dollar keeps coming down like it is; you'll soon see Americans not tipping. And if gets any worse, they won' even be traveling. Their money will be no good anywhere. The Dollar is at a 5 year low against the pound, and a 10 year low against the peso.

The government is buying street dollars and all the dollars they can get their hands on to stop this appreciation of the peso. Massive sales of cocaine by these para groups who are looking to unload their merchandise in one big bang before the end of the year is resulting in too many dollars coming into this country. Expect real estate booms pretty soon just like when Escobar was at the height of his "career" and too many dollars were coming into Medellin. Doesn't anyone remember 20 years ago when the peso was worth more than the Dollar?

www.unionjackedfilms.com

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billyb says on May 30, 2007, 15:47:

Ujay, you might want to recheck your.... sources, but 20 Years the peso was not worth more than the dollar.

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 30, 2007, 16:38:

Ujay, Interesting point of view. I've always found in my travels that countries where the tip is OPTIONAL have better service than countries where the tip is BUILT INTO THE BILL. The US custom is to leave 15% if service is good. But if it's not, it's totally at your discretion to leave none at all. Believe me, I've done that very rarely, but it is a good way to send a message when treated poorly. In Colombia you can tip up but can't really tip down, since the 10% is built in. The other thing about the built in tip is that you just know it isn't going to the server.

I agree with you, though, that the restaurants should simply pay their waitstaff better wages and let's forget about the nickel and dime stuff.

In college I had a girlfriend who was a waiter in a very expensive restaurant frequented by European tourists to the US. She and her colleagues HATED when a group of Germans would walk in because 9 times out of 10 they party would rack up a $200 bill and leave a $1 tip, if lucky.

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ujay says on May 30, 2007, 17:18:

Opinions, just opinions. 20 years ago 30 years I'm estimating. But there was a point in time I remember the dollars was lower than the peso. I remember one time I could get $1 for 900 pesos or less. Maybe it was less or more than 20 years ago.

When I go to a restaurant of wherever I could care less about the service. All they got to do is bring my dinner. Serve my drink. This is not complicated. A trained monkey can do it. Big deal. It's not like they are giving me a happy ending at the end of a meal. Do we really need these people anyhow? I don't need to be pampered. I just want a meal. And I don't want to feel guilty afterwards about not leaving a tip or leaving too little or feel the negative vibes of the waitress who isn't even happy with the 15% you gave her because she's been spoiled and usually gets more. Few people in the States will not leave a tip if service is poor. Try pulling that at Hooters and you'll get the waitress follow you out into the street asking for her 15%.

Most these people, waitresses, waiters, servers, are nothing but cookie cutter generic brain washed corporate gimps. They all come over to you in the middle of your meal and interrupt with you with a "Is everything ok?"

Why do they train these people to ask this annoying question. Just be around if we need something. Don't come interrupt us in the middle of a perfectly good meal when we have a mouth full of spaghetti or a meatball on the end of our palate.



We shouldn't have to make up the difference in their wages is all I'm saying. This is something that needs to change globally. I think the world should go open source with everyone collaborating. Personally I'd give away anything more than 2 million dollars and share and help people make 2 million dollars too until everyone could eventually have the wealth spread out among them and be a collaborative sharing society. Open Source. With everyone trying to make 2 million dollars then passing on everything they make over that. And just enjoying life. Seriously we're not taking anything with us to the grave. We should all die broke. The last check we write should be to our undertaker and it should be a cheque chimbo.

www.unionjackedfilms.com

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griffbos says on May 30, 2007, 17:29:

I do not eat out often when in Colombia but when I do and the server made the meal enjoyable I will tip, but rarely will I , as for the taxi in barranquilla the price is a round number so unless they guy got me quicker to were I wanted to go then i do not tip he gets the price we agreed to, I am always told not to tip when I am there by friends and family, I have friends that are servers or tend bar and they are not paid that great, so if someone gives me good service I want to even if it is just 1.000 pesos. It is like the guys that hope on the buses that run in the city ( not the ones that go to another city) selling candy or something, me I feel sorry for them they are trying to make a living and to me it is not a easy way to do it, but when traveling my friends always tell me no do not pay them any attention or but from them, I am sure if you ride a bus everyday and have to deal with these guys selling all the time it gets to be a pain. But to me I see my life is a little beter then theisrs and 100 pesos is not going to kill me so now and then I will buy a piece of candy.

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Waterdawg says on May 30, 2007, 17:38:

Excuse me ! I am an American ( retired Military ) living and operating a biz. ( employing Colombian people ) here in Colombia . I have worked hard for my money all my life ; I made it the hard way , being deployed all over the world . It is " MY " money .. If I choice to be a little more generous with " MY " money for good service to folks who make and have a lot less than me : Well I don't see why that should bother you or anyone else .. And I don't think that comments like

" unless you are living here permanently and making a Colombian wage only here...shut your mouth. "

Are justified !

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griffbos says on May 30, 2007, 17:44:

Hollywood what I think some people don't realize is servers and even some other service industry jobs their minium wage is lower then that of other workers, the USA fed minimum wage is 5.15 for most workers while those in jobs that recieve tips it is only 2.13 an hour. In Colombia i do not know if it is similar I will have to ask my friends there that do that kind of work.

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David in Idaho says on May 30, 2007, 17:44:

Get used to it Waterdawg The particular poster in question would prefer a site where everyone agrees with her. It doesn't sound very interesting to me, but speaking from experience, she will resort to personal attacks (like the above) as soon as she perceives that someone might feel differently about the world we live in. She'll also bombard you with crazy assumptions about who she thinks you are. But you've been here long enough to know that you have to blow off such childishness. To participate on this site a thick skin is essential, at least until Peter intalls an "ignore" button.

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cayita says on May 30, 2007, 17:50:

Waterdog yes they are justified. You have no right to make statements that other people don't care if they don't tip. Look, you are making dollars in Colombia. Not everyone is doing that and an extra mil for a tip is the bus money home for the majority of the people in Colombia. So they don't care unless they leave a tip?

You are way out of line with your comments and needed to be put in your place. If you have spent enough time in Colombia than you would respect it's cultures and customes. We don't tip in Colombia. You want to tip go back to the USA and tip. We don't need you to come here and upset the balance or to change the way we do things. You are welcome to live here but dammit what gives you the right to change the way we do things? You got no right to do that.

If the tip is included and the service was bad I will ask them to take the tip off the bill. Haven't done it more than a few times in my life but sure will do it if the service was bad.

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CaritadeAngel says on May 30, 2007, 18:01:

When you allow yourself to be ripped off You change the culture of the place, and you make it ultimately harder for local people. Korean and Japan don't have tipping, its considered an insult. Brits think America is extreme, and I'm sorry, no way am I going to tip 18% for anything. 10% was always the standard in the western world, I don't know where this extreme tipping thing came from in the States but I understand its farely recent.

Allow youself to be ripped off, and local people find it harder and harder to function in areas where there are foreigners. In India, for example, I knew several ladies who couldn't get a rickshaw to work because the rickshaw drivers were waiting around for tourists that they could charge double. I became quite famous in the city as the white woman who never paid more than what the meter said, and if they attempted to I left them for the watchman to deal with, or asked them to drive me to the police station. After a while, they all knew me and never cheated me.

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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lochdhu says on May 30, 2007, 18:09:

aww shit, there she goes agian. is there a thread that this woman is not ranting and raving in?

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Waterdawg says on May 30, 2007, 18:12:

.. " You are welcome to live here but dammit what gives you the right to change the way we do things? You got no right to do that. "

Thank you ! My employee's thank you , The Colombian Govt. who I pay tax's to thank you .. My Land lord thanks you , Carnafour Thanks you and yes my favorite Bar tender who I shamlessly Tip Thank you !

If I have insulted you ; I truly apologize ! And I am not trying to change Colombia , Really .. I don't think a few extra peso's will cause the down fall of your Culture ..

As far as the Scot's go ; Well enough said ! Sure is hard being an American these days ... Damed if you do Damed if you don't ..

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lochdhu says on May 30, 2007, 18:17:

the next time I go to colombia, I will engage in extreme tipping just to piss off and ruin things for cayita.

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CaritadeAngel says on May 30, 2007, 19:54:

Dark Lake Why don't you take a run and jump in it?

You are a Scot Lochdhu. You are not fooling anyone on the tipping issue.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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Waterdawg says on May 30, 2007, 20:02:

Shew / Shrew ! What ever Kate !

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lochdhu says on May 30, 2007, 20:28:

I might be Scot, but I ain't cheap like you, I am pretty generous, and give Scots a bad name in that sense. now my father on the other hand, can squeeze a nickle out of every penny.

why don't you go split a roll of 2 ply toilet paper so you can have 2 rolls of TP!

BTW its not dark lake, it's Black lake.

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CaritadeAngel says on May 30, 2007, 20:40:

Give that my surname
Is derived from Dhu - meaning black, or dark (dark as in the colour shade or tone,) its a perfectly acceptable translation.

As in "tall dark stranger".

I am generous - but not where it is "madatory" (as in the USA) and not where it is offensive (as in Japan) and not where damages local cultures (as in India, but 10% will do fine in most places. Here, I always check the bill.

But then I am never a tourist.

Waterdog, I see you are a man who knows his classics.

He that knows better how to tame a shrew,
Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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morphus says on May 30, 2007, 20:56:

TIP??? Theres no fuckin such thing as a TIP in Colombia!

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lochdhu says on May 30, 2007, 20:57:

How about this CA, rather than give the standard 10% tip, you could write out a rave or rant, and provide that in place of your tip, seeing as you demand that everyone agree with you, or see it your way.




Do the Dhu, or are you full of Dhu?

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gringoloid says on May 30, 2007, 20:59:

People can tip whatever they want..... the servers know that they may only get two good tips per night and no precedents are being set.

Some people overtip so the next time they come in they get treated special; like they'll hold your favorite table, they'll stay open past closing time for you, they don't have to wait in a line outside, when they bring in a dinner party or a client they get really special treatment,etc. You have to pay for this kind of treatment.

This is not for every restaurant, but the three or four you spend the most time.

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David in Idaho says on May 30, 2007, 21:40:

Reminds me of a tasteless joke: Q: What did the leper say to the hooker?

A: Keep the tip!

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lochdhu says on May 30, 2007, 22:22:

^Classic! LOL.
^Classic! LOL.

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goin_south says on May 30, 2007, 22:56:

Let me give you a GOOD TIP: (pssst....don't bet on the Yankees to win the world series this year!)

Voy para del Sur....taking my tip to bogo-ta!

I'D RATHER BE.........IN COLOMBIA :-)).... (No Quiero Conozco Gustav)...(TEMPORARY NAME CHANGE: RUNNIN_NORTH! JEJE!!!)

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goin_south says on May 30, 2007, 23:00:

I'm going to do my part, miamimike... I'm just going to act like, from now on, when I go to Colombia, that I have NEVER HEARD THE WORD: propina, tip, gratuity.
no se.
no comprendo.
Reio, y...
Correo!

Voy para del Sur

I'D RATHER BE.........IN COLOMBIA :-)).... (No Quiero Conozco Gustav)...(TEMPORARY NAME CHANGE: RUNNIN_NORTH! JEJE!!!)

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goin_south says on May 30, 2007, 23:02:

no estoy "Plan Colombia"! NO Estoy 'Plan Louisiana'!
no se.
no tengo,...nada.

Voy para del Sur

I'D RATHER BE.........IN COLOMBIA :-)).... (No Quiero Conozco Gustav)...(TEMPORARY NAME CHANGE: RUNNIN_NORTH! JEJE!!!)

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 01:47:

Cayita, I dont know where in Colombia you are but most plces will include a 10% tip and most people I know do leave the 10% tip. I just have a problem with people who say "ok the bill was 15 000 pesos, ill leave 8000 for tip because 4 dollars is nothing, these poor people probably dont even have dinner at night". That goes against common sense and comepletely subjects the quality of the service sector to tips...If people go to colombia and undermine the way things work there Id rather have them leaving, its a matter of respect, if youre feeling generous go donate to Unicef, Amnesty, become a volunteer for the Red Cross, adopt a colombian child...see? I bet not so generous anymore, RESPECT local ways of working things.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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panthdave says on May 31, 2007, 03:10:

Don't Overtip..and Don't Compare United States either United States has a crazy system...on tips first you have Tipping Wages and Regular Wages...Tourist Areas like Miami Beach they are doing now 15-18% Propina Now and some restaurants have signs now that the tip is included which you know waiters or waitress hate that because then all funds are declared on the POS System which is reported to accounting under the waiter/waitrees name or code. Now restaurants that don't include tip give 15% in States because most likely there on tipping wages and if they don't receive that tip they worked for basically nothing and that is horrible which I think should be stopped in the states these two kinds of wages.
My assumption now is Colombian Restaurants they pay regular wages they don't have two kinds of wages. Some include tip which I don't leave a penny and the ones that don't if there is service to the table and the service was excellent I might leave a few pesos.
The problem comes in American Tourists are so use to making sure there is a tip but don't read receipts carefully which I cannot blame them sometimes they are on vacation and having good time and some areas in the States they are not use to the tip being included. In Miami I am use to that.When it started years ago here I got fooled.

Colombia Don't overtip use your head and common sense but not leave any tip for anything Come on Guys..Extreme on one side not leaving a tip and Extreme on the other side leaving too much..
So lets use the middle method just use common sense..

Also I truely believe if the American Tourist notices the propina included they will rethink the tip and might even leave 5% more which will not stop because they are on vacation and not worrying about money..For myself don't leave one cent more if propina is included if not I leave usually 1 or 2 mil if service was to the table..

So we are on crapshoot here..

panthdave Miami

panthdave Miami

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 07:01:

Cereal killer first don't pretend your little stay in Colombia equals most of my life in Colombia.
second, in franchise restaurants and upscale restaurants the tip is included. Someone on here was writing about the executive lunch and leaving a tip for it.
I have said where the tip is included I pay it if the service was good. If not they take it off for me. You got a problem with that or something?
So I get it you guys are setting eating your lunch and giving a tip for special service setting next to a guy who is scraping together 5 mil for that lunch and he notices you are getting better service than he is.
Whatever if you guys want to all pay propina and more propina and since I know Colombians far better than you know Colombians let me give you a hint of your future here in Colombia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

to the rest of you. BTW Carita is making sense and you guys are dumping on her. You are so lost.

Give that tip and since it is not part of the culture or understood why? It will be assumed that you got plenty of money to go around. Here in Colombia we don't have much gringo iva. My forign clients rarely in the past have experienced this. BUT, now that you want to throw money around it will not be a tip but you will start paying more for your sevice, for your taxi and everywhere else. When you are a recognized stranger you will just pay more. That is how generocity is understood here and the reaction to it. You will not be paying a tip but you will be paying gringo iva. Now if you are not smart enough to figure this out for yourself then you better listen to someone who is. ;)
Here is how it happenes. One time Mr Generous gringo gives a big tip. Next time another gringo comes in and the expectations of that tip rise and the help already have it divied up before the guy get's his water. He does not leave a tip and the air escapes the balloon and they start to think...next time a gringo comes in let's just tell him it is 5 mil more and that way we are sure to get our gift.

GET IT?

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mvefwd says on May 31, 2007, 07:56:

Choice IMHO it's all about choice. It's not about being cheap or gratuitous. I tip because I have been blessed enough to do so. I believe that if someone provides a service, and provides it well, there is nothing wrong with rewarding their assistance. That might not work for you, but it works for me and I feel good doing it. It drives my GF (Calena) crazy, but that's the way I am.

That waitress, bellhop, shoeshine will spend & save more of what they earn. Their purchases and savings (in banks) will help stimulate the economy. It's a win/win situation.

Again, it's my humble opinion. It works for me.

Viva Colombia
---E

No matter where you go... You are who you are...

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 08:57:

Cayita, I have lived in Colombia from age 3, I have colombian passport, a cedula and like you, I can vote and speak my mind. I am no less colombian than you. Chances are i have spent more time in colombia than you, so please refrain yourself from judging people you dont know.
I, unlike you, have nothing against tipping like most colombians do. Not the greedy cheap kind you must be used to hanging out with. But the average Joe (from estrato 3 to estrato 6), who is generous but not stupid tips 10%. It has become a standard, if you dont want to pay then dont pay thats why it clearly reads "propina voluntaria"...

Get it sweetie?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 11:05:

you've convinced me I'll be a better person and stop harming Colombian culture by giving away less of my hard earned cash.

Next trip (July) I promise to avoid tipping anyone, and just to be sure they get it, I'll ask a few places for my 'voluntary' tip back.

Now, how about the street kids, I don't give cash anymore, I know that's not helping, but should I stop buying them burgers and fries at McDonalds too?

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Atrevido says on May 31, 2007, 11:16:

I used to give those guys who wave you into a parking space and then "watch your car" four hundred pesos but with the dollar where it´s at I´ve had to lower that to three.

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 31, 2007, 11:21:

Of all the threats that Colombia and Colombians face, I think being "ruined by over-tipping" is about number 2985634 on the list.

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 11:29:

Pod, I do not know if you were being sarcastic about street children. But If you were serious about not giving them money anymore I might just have to thank you. If i were you id buy them the cajita feliz and force them to eat right there in front of me, you would not want them to show up at home with food, which will end up feeding the drunk dad or in the worst case scenario, the super fertile mother.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 31, 2007, 11:37:

Pod...its YOUR money, do what YOU want with it...=) i dont need anyone telling me what to do with my money....anymore than having someone tell me what to do with my time...=)

i tip when they have earned it...otherwise, i will just leave condoms on the table like Morphus....=)


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer..2-0..Colombia es pasión!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 11:59:

well cereal sorry if I am confusing you with someone else I have been in Colombia for 32 years minus 4 spent overseas at the university.

I don't hang out with cheap people but I don't tip 1,000 pesos for an executive lunch. So I guess you are pretending to know something about me now aren't you sweetie? I have never seen anyone do this but a gringo. So you tip 10% well aren't you the hero? You leave 500 pesos for your 5mil executive lunch or do you just eat at the upscale places? It is not the norm in Colombia to tip. Yes now at Archies or wherever you eat they include the tip. I have no problem with this but if and that is a big IF you lived in Colombia for any amount of time you would know this is fairly new.

I tip but I do not make a point to set up a foundation to take care of it for me like gringo's do, and aparently you do. If you do then that is great but you are not Colombian and I don't really care what you say otherwise. Your attitude towards leaving big tips is not one Colombians share. I am right to call you on it, sorry it pissed you off...not really.

Arthur you can't open your own door to the taxi? Why not save up your pesos and give it to a foundation and let them put food in someones belly rather than booze in someones liver. Do what you want though it is your money.

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 31, 2007, 12:14:

Cayita Since you're a Colombian I know you won't mind me asking what "estrato" you come from?

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 12:22:

What? Kind of question is that? What is your estrata? OK I will answer it. We live in a very upscale Teak Wood Treehouse.

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 12:33:

no sarcasm (this time jaja) CK I did used to give the street kids money my first few trips, then almost everyone told me it was a bad idea as it just encouraged the parents to keep putting the kids to work.

So I agree with that, I don't give money anymore.

But I do take the kids with me to McDonalds or to whatever that hot dog place in front of Kukurumakara is called, and I do make sure they eat it while I am there.

I'm sure they could buy much better food and lots more of it for the money, but I think they also probably get a little bit of joy eating at McDonalds.

And yes, I do it because it makes me feel better too.

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 12:37:

Cayita, I dont tip 1000 for 5k peso lunch either, but chances are id leave 500 as a tip. You do accept that 10% is already an established practice, regardless of how new you consider it.
How am I "setting up a foundation to take care of it for me like gringo's do?"
"your attitude towards leaving big tips is not one Colombians share" I never ever defended big tips, so go pick up a fight some place else.
Clearly, you are lazy (or unable) enough to not read others' posts in their entirety. So I am not going to bother with you. As to "you are not colombian and I dont really care you say otherwise" comment, youre either a silly bigot or pretty damn retarded which is more likely. I mean not knowing what constitutes the concept of nationality at 32? Sad, sad, sad.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 12:45:

Pod, good for you. I honestly feel for children, asking for money, cleaning car windshields all day and going to bed on an empty tummy. It doesnt matter if it makes you feel better, ultimately, you are thinking beyond the majority of the population. Many give money to children just to get them off their face...but taking the time to think about the consequences and actually feed someone who is going hungry is just a humane thing to do. I have nothing negative to say about that... :)

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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lochdhu says on May 31, 2007, 13:40:

I think Cayita needs to get a job as a waiter earning 2k pesos an hour working 10-12 hour days, only then would she appreciate our gringo tips. and see things differently.

I tip what I feel the level of service was provided to me, and in some cases, I may even personally tip the cook/chef. altho I have never done this in colombia, as the resturants are not world class, but I have done it a quite few times in argentina when I presented them with a challenge not listed on the menu.


It's my money, I earned, and I will spend it or throw it away how I see fit.

and I will not be swayed to do otherwise by a so called tipping expert.

www.SantaMarta.com

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 31, 2007, 13:44:

What kind of question that was Cayita, I asked the estrato question because your position, in my experience, is fairly common among upper-class Colombians but not so much among the working class.

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 13:58:

maybe it's a cliché but I think one of the reasons I like travelling is that it does make you aware of how fortunate you are to never have to worry about having a meal or a roof over your head.

Whatever problems most of us have are nothing in comparison to what you see all over the developing world.

I was just chatting with one of the bricklayers working on my place here, and they are finishing up soon so this guy told me he hopes he can work for me again on the 'next place' I do.

I told him I don't have any money (yet) to do a next place but that I was already thinking about it and had my eye on a few spots. He suggested I get some investors. I said I probably would end up doing that, but I would prefer to have the workers as investors, and they could own a part of the place in return for not receiving wages.

That way I said, I don't have to risk much money, I'd be sure that they would work as efficiently as possible, and they'd end up with at least a part of an asset that would bring them some income.

He liked that idea.

But the very obvious problem with that is, how do they survive for a year without wages? So it's a pipe dream really.

It just made me think though, how on earth is this guy ever going to get ahead? Even if the economy improves and lots more building goes on, so that his wages go up, he'll end up having to pay more for everything.

I don't have any answers, but like they tell me when I ask how they are: 'sigue con la lucha'.

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 31, 2007, 14:41:

There's a good answer to that, pod I helped a Colombian friend who worked for me sort out his financial matters. The guy was making really good money by Colombian standards but also, as a result of good fortune was also very overcommitted. He was supporting WAY too many people outside his nuclear family, had developed a taste for consumer spending, and as a result was in debt at terrible interest. And to service that debt he was taking value out of his business rather than re-investing back into it.

I learned all this one day when he asked me for a bridge loan to tide him over until payday. I asked him why he couldn't make ends meet given his rather substantial salary and he answered with all of the above facts. I told him I'd do more than give him a bridge but that in order to do it we needed to come up with a plan to get his financial house in order.

A few days later I sat down with him and his wife and we went over all their liabilities, their assets, their wages, their fixed and variable costs, etc. and we figured out where the big leaks were and how to budget reasonably. They made a committment to stop buying fancy new things on credit and to stop loaning money they didn't have to "cousins" and "friends" who were hitting them up. We made a plan whereby I paid off ALL their high-interest consumer debt that was eating them alive and they paid me back X-amount per month at zero interest. It only took the guy about 6 months to pay me back in full and since then he's actually bought his house and grown his business considerably.

Hey, maybe I was wrecking Colombia for other gringos by being helpful and generous with my friend, but I'm also really proud of how he was able to turn his life around with just a little help and guidance.

I bet you could do the same with your workers.

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panthdave says on May 31, 2007, 15:33:

Like I said Don't overtip and Don't undertip.. Now I see my GF takes out pesos from her purse and gives to kids sometimes and always leaves a few pesos for the waiter unless they include the tip..She also rounds up on the taxi unless he is an asshole..I have learned from her in Medellin..Yes the upper restaurants include the propina..so we don't tip..

When I say restaurants I mean ones that serve food to the table..I do believe Cereal Killer on this one because I do see Colombians tipping but not over doing it..The problem comes in when the American Tourist is use to the 15-20% and not reading receipts..They just need to be told thats it..well the new tourists..

panthdave Miami

panthdave Miami

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2007, 15:38:

Hey Hollywood Err...d'you think we could meet up in B/ta really soon? I need some help. I really have no idea why my paycheck disappears so fast.
Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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bamacellist says on May 31, 2007, 15:42:

OT (tipping, but not in Colombia) When I lived in Caracas, many, many years ago, it was the custom to tip the guy who pumped your gas. Everyone did this. If you didn't, you were likely to leave the filling station minus your gascap.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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miamimike says on May 31, 2007, 16:23:

I believe "No Tipitis" is a Chronic disease with Colombians irregardless of their Status economically. I observed my Ladyfriend, who is presently in Miami and we went to an IHOP Pancake restaurant and when it was her turn to pay the Bill(we takes turns paying every other meal) and I observed her reluctance to leave a Tip. I had to educate her to our way of tipping and explain that the waiters only make around $2 per hour and the rest on tips. She was going to leave around .50 only for a $15 dollar Bill,now mind you she is far from Poor and comes from the mid-upper class in Bogota. She has been traveling to the US since the late 70s so she is aware of our dining habits&tipping I would think. I have noticed this Habit with other Colombians here in Miami also so it looks like a standard practice. No Tipitis!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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morphus says on May 31, 2007, 17:01:

Miguel_C, tipping with condoms? How did you know? I usually leave the used ones under the bed in the hotel room....lol

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 17:31:

there was another thread about this Mr H Where some people gave advice about how to treat or deal with employees in this culture (although I think they are the same everywhere, really, it's just a metter of degree).

I had just been asked for a loan by this same guy I mentioned above, and I didn't know what to do. I was happy to lend him the money, but couldn't see how he would repay it. I could just deduct it from his pay each week, but then I was afraid the capo would find out and go hard on him for asking me, or else the guy would just stop coming to work, which was the worst of all scenarios as he was really good.

So I gave him the money, just to see what would happen.

The next payday, he didn't show up. I thought, well that proves that.

He missed a few more days, very unlike him. The capo said he was ill. I was sure I'd never see him again.

But then he showed up, and the first thing he did was pay me the first installment. He couldn't pay the next installment, so I said don't worry, don't pay me the whole amount but you have to pay me something each week. So he did. Not much, but something. I was just happy to have the guy back. I didn't care if he paid me anything, I just didn't want him to think I was a total pushover.

Anyway, he paid me diligently until one day he had worked like a dog, and I said to him, forget the rest of the money, you earned it. He protested mildly, but not too much!

I really was surprised I ever got any of it back.

Another cliché, but they have to learn to somehow save some money. I don't know how they survive on what they earn, but they still have to somehow put a bit away to be able to buy that bit of land or whatever.

Actually, most of the guys working for me aren't that badly off, they have better running shoes than I do! They all seem to be building or improving their own houses (2 hours outside the city). They take every scrap of leftover material from the job site. Since I practically demolished my house and built it new, and they carted away all the rubble, I joke with them that I expect they are rebuilding my old house in their barrio, and I plan to visit someday and see for myself.

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lochdhu says on May 31, 2007, 17:58:

Podborski,
I was gonna share Podborski,

I was gonna share this story in another thread some time ago. but felt compelled to share it now.

one morning I was at a cafe eating breakfast and sipping coffee, and realized I forgot my smokes, out of the blue I watched an old man hunched over and having difficulty walking up the street selling cigs and candy, as he got closer I could see his right leg was pretty mangled up, it took the guy about 4-5 seconds just to take one step forward and then drag his mangled leg forward, the guy was in pretty bad shape physically and must have at one time suffered a bad accident, I could see that just the act of walking for this guy took a lot of effort.

so as he got closer, I approached the old man and asked to buy 2 packs of smokes. all I had at the time was several 50k bank notes, he charged me 7k pesos, I told him to keep the rest (43k mil)

the only reason I gave him the 43k was because I was impressed that a guy who was so obviously disabled was trying to make a living the best he could. the guy was very greatful, but at least he was trying.

But here in the USA when people get so much as a paper cut, all they want to do is sit on there fat ass, collect disability and play video games all day and expect the government to pick up the tab and give them an easy life.

some here may not like what I did, but I could care less. I was just impressed by the guy who was trying to make a living despite his disability, and wanted to spread some good will.



www.SantaMarta.com

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 18:39:

I'm with you lochdhu I hope people don't think I'm trying to make myself out to be a saint, 'cause I am far from it. Back home I never give a dime to any street person, or even organized charities. (Of course, where I am from there are no young kids on the street, well none I've ever seen anyway).

If you are on the street in Toronto, you are pretty much there of your own free will, in my opinion. Maybe you are a drug addict (and I'm not going to feed that), maybe you have a mental problem (there are free clinics and shelters), etc.

But it's different down here, and especially in Colombia. There are people on the street through no fault of their own.

The problem is, I can't tell who legitimately needs help and who doesn't, so I'm reluctant to give much.

I probably told this story before, but I'll tell it again anyway, because it bugs me. I once saw a family (parents, 2 kids)get off of a bus right in front of me just off 85 near Andino mall. They looked very old fashioned, like country or farm people.

The father was dressed in what looked almost like tweed and he had an old style hat on. He looked totally out of place.

They put their small suitcases down on the curb and the dad walked up to me and asked for some help.

I just automatically said no. And he said thanks anyway and walked away.

Now I have no idea if they had just arrived in the city and had nothing and nowhere to go, as it looked, or if it was just a good act. But it seemed too well done to be an act.

But I said no, and they quickly wandered off.

I really kick myself for that, because now I think they were legitimate and I could easily have given them enough to eat and tide them over for a day or two.

It would have been a good start for them.

But no, I didn't want to be the fool who gave them money they didn't deserve.

I just hope I get another opportunity to correct that particular error.

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 19:55:

Well then cereal killer is Colombian and (DELETED). That much is very clear now. Thanks for clearing it up.

Furthermore if you leave any tip at all at an executive lunch you are either retarded or you are not Colombian or NOT in Colombia, no one does this. I think you are full of shit actually.

[NO PERSONAL ATTACKS OR NAME-CALLING, PLEASE! ]

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 31, 2007, 19:57:

Uh oh.....a cat fight?? Cant we all just get alongggggg....RK Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer..2-0..Colombia es pasión!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 20:03:

uhh cayita I think you forget we all can read, and it's pretty clear who the bitch is.

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Beef27 says on May 31, 2007, 23:53:

cayita surely is very confrontational from my observations in many of her posts. have to agree though with both sides on this. some situations it is right, some situations it shouldn't be done. I for sure do not want to pay extra when I do not have to, but also like to help those in need if I can afford to do so. peace

Paul WallSemper Fi

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 1, 2007, 00:35:

Awww cayita someone edited your post, you dirty mouthed wench. I wouldve loved to get to read it, thank you for making the effort though. Not only stingy but classy...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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panthdave says on Jun 1, 2007, 06:33:

Damn..The Heat is On...This is getting Good..

panthdave Miami

panthdave Miami

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podborski says on Jun 1, 2007, 06:40:

Mr Hollywood, I think you can guess cayita's estrata, don't you? ; )

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cayita says on Jun 1, 2007, 06:50:

Oh yea cereal it is plain to see that you got favoritism on your side so you can say what you want here without fear of retaliation. Not unlike some others I have noticed.

I got more class in my little finger than you have in your whole red head. I just don't like being called retarded adn stupid and whatever else you can dream up. I know what you are and you know what you are. A complete loser. Now edit that!

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cayita says on Jun 1, 2007, 06:54:

OK I give up What estrata am I?

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cayita says on Jun 1, 2007, 06:57:

since my other post is sure to be deleted let me just say that since you brought up class. All I can say is you can tell a lot about a person in what they think of themselves. You call yourself "Cereal Killer. Says it all, I bet you have put on a few pounds killin your cereal. So do you buy it by the palat or the container?

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David in Idaho says on Jun 1, 2007, 07:39:

And yet you wonder why I said you were like a snake!

Cayita, you lash out at people, unprovoked, and when they reply in kind, you freak out like people are being mean and unfair. If indeed you are not retarded (jury still out on that one) then you should be able to grasp the basic human truth that you get what you give. It works with respect, but it also works with antagonism. You choose what you'd like to receive, and then try giving it first.

This has been an unpaid announcement by PBHers for a so-called "Friendly Talkzone."

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CaritadeAngel says on Jun 1, 2007, 07:52:

Let's not do it to each other, we get enough "fat" comments from the lads here.

Ladies...gotta show some solidarity in this testosterone filled board...cat fights delight the lads, secretly, they imagine us doing it in mud, or something, semi-naked. I'm an estrata 2 girl now - or am I estrata 4? We'll never know, because the phone company thinks my house is estrata 2, and the electricity company thinks it's 4. So, who the hell cares? By all means, torment the men with razor wit, who dare to mention "fat" (we haven't heard too much on that regard since I brought up the subject of size of manhood though ;-) but lets not do it to each other. Are we not above this?

Pod: I think your idea about the builders investing in the property is fab. Could they not work part-time on this project? It would maybe go slower, but maybe not as slow as you think, people tend to work faster, harder and better when they have a stake in the business.


He that knows better how to tame a shrew, Now let him speak; 'tis charity to shew."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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jinksmiester says on Jun 1, 2007, 08:00:

Naked in the mud..naaaaaa...i think id rather see two woman wrestle in cream corn.....damn niblits get in everywhere...lol

A man is not old until regret takes the place of dreams

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 1, 2007, 08:15:

Cayita, you have made a very strong statement regarding your class, notice i say class not estrato. Darling you can be estrato 20 if you want, but class? You have given us plenty of clues as to the one you belong to. As for me, I am very proud of my red hair, my 49 kilos of body mass and the respect i have for myself when it comes to not lowering my fight standards. That said, I think you need to get laid, see? I am even giving you free advice ... have a good life.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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gringoloid says on Jun 1, 2007, 08:43:

Like I always said about a particular gender.... "Immaturity, undeveloped self-esteem, constant contradictions, emotional response and/or overreaction to the SIMPLEST misstatement or problem, an inability to handle adversity, constant self-absorbment, a total failure of inductive reasoning, deductive reasoning or simple pattern recognition, short attention span, superficiality, an extreme need for dependence while loudly declaring independence, etc...

All of this over a tip.

I moved to Colombia at a fantastic expense to find a wife and in the past month I may have changed my mind as a result of the women on this site.

I think I should remain a dog.

In fact my epitaph will say, "Gringoloid the Doggie Dog, May he rest in Peace"

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 1, 2007, 08:43:

cayita, nobody has preferencial treatment here, it's just that certain words like bitch, asshole, mongoloid and idiot (just to mention a few) trigger an immediate "delete" function on my keyboard. I don't read every post and I know I miss a lot of them, but I try to clean out the worst crap from all the hundred fights going on on as many threads.

Carita is right; stop entertaining the lads, girls.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Lostgringo says on Jun 1, 2007, 09:00:

Tipping in Colombia I remember when I first came to Colombia I would tip all the time. My girlfriend would kind of look at me funny. After awhile I would get her to pay the bill as I was too embarrassed at NOT leaving a tip. Same thing with the taxi. She would wait for ALL the change. When I am alone I round off the fare with the taxis. I rarely leave tips now in restaurants. Sometimes I tip at my favorite bar.

I had a hard time at first getting my head around this concept. But it just isn't done here and I want to blend into this culture not stand out. Reverse the tipping idea in terms of North America. What do you think of people coming to North American and never leaving a tip? If it is your girlfriend you tell her nicely that you should leave a tip. So why is it so different in Colombia. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Again, I admit it was very difficult for me to appreciate this here and to adapt. I do tip (sometimes), for exceptional service.

Buying a child a meal at McDonalds is a very good thing to do. I still have the North American mentality that if I am with a child I am seen as child abuser.... You can get into so much trouble in Canada sometimes just talking to young kids. But you can do this here in an honest way and it is ok. It's a good thing.


I don't want people where I live in Colombia to know that I have allot of money to burn...tip or give to people on the street. One day I was having a cervaza in the patio of my favorite bar. A man approached me asking for money. He was in very bad shape. He was on crutches and his legs were mangled. I said no and watched him wander off through the park across from the bar. I left my table and caught up to him away from the view of people at the bar. I slipped him 5 mil. Not much I know. He beamed with a very large smile and thanked me.

I hardly ever tip here or give money to people on the street. But every now and then I break out a few mil for someone who touches my heart. I have seen Colombians themselves do this. I have seen taxi drivers give too. The truth is, for me anyway, I can only turn my eyes away, tune people out, or say no so many times and then I give a little. My girlfriend who is Colombian is the same way. I often go to Exito here Medellin. Across the street from the store there is woman with no legs or arms in a wheelchair. I make a habit of giving her something. She always has a beautiful smile to give in return.

Another thing to consider in Colombia in terms of tipping in access....you give "papaya." You send out the wrong signal that you have allot of money. Same as wearing expensive jewelry. You draw attention to yourself. Not the best thing to do in Colombia.

welovebogota.com "Luxury Apartment and rooms at reasonable prices"

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.

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podborski says on Jun 1, 2007, 10:35:

at CA I am sure there is a way I could figure it out, it would just be a matter of discussing with the workers what amount of salary they need to live on (realistically) while the place gets built. It's about 1 year to get a project built (from groundbreaking to opening the doors). That's not too bad.

I could give them that bare minimum and count the rest as going towards a part ownership in the project. It would be like a forced savings plan for them.

Once it's finished they could have the option to sell their shares (we'd have to find a reasonable way to value them) or keep them and earn a pro rata share of the profits.

I really like the idea because, as I said, it means I have to come up with less money to start out with, and I would be assured they would work on the place as if it were their own.

My biggest problem is never knowing who to trust, and if I am paying the gringo IVA or not. This helps solve that issue. The workmen would be going able to tell me if quotes I get for things are realistic or not. They already do that, pulling me aside and asking what I paid for something, then they tell me if it seems reasonable or not.

I could also cut out the rather costly architects, I would only need them to do the original plans.

I will definitely try it the next project, and if the workers find it a bit too complicated or just not doable, I'll still try to work in a bonus for them based on finishing on time and on budget. But i'll make it a part of the contract, not just up to my discretion as it is now.

Oh, and the other thing I would do, is get them some goddamn power tools so they can be more productive!