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Venezuelan ammunition reaching FARC

BOGOTA -- Venezuelan-made ammunition is regularly reaching Colombia's FARC and ELN guerrillas, Colombian military intelligence officers have told El Nuevo Herald.

One of the officers said the evidence available did not indicate whether the ammunition reaching the rebels is ``a consequence of the growing corruption that exists in the Venezuelan military and police forces, or the result of a policy by President Hugo Chávez.''

The officers said their evidence came from inspections of ammunition seized from guerrillas in northeastern Colombia, on the border with Venezuela, and the testimony of deserters from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, and National Liberation Army, or ELN.

The FARC's use of Venezuelan-made ammunition was reported by more than 10 of the some 95 guerrilla members who defected so far this year in southern Colombia and the Andean state of Huila, the officers added.

Both guerrilla groups have a large number of AK-47 assault rifles that use 7.62x39 ammunition, a heavier caliber than most modern assault rifles. The only factory that makes that caliber in South America is the Venezuelan government's Compañía Anónima Venezolana de Industrias Militares, opened in 2005.

BLACK MARKET

Colombian rebels have long been known to buy ammunition on the black market -- mostly from stocks left over from Central America's civil wars in the 1980s or corrupt security officers in neighboring countries like Ecuador, Venezuela and Brazil.

The leftist Chávez has said he sympathizes with the rebels' ''Bolivarian'' cause and last week urged other nations to recognize the FARC and ELN as ''armies'' and not terrorists. But he has steadily denied aiding the rebels.

Most of the Venezuelan ammunition captured from the FARC has been seized in the eastern border states of Arauca and Norte de Santander, said the officers, who asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to journalists.

Venezuela bought the Russian-made ammunition factory in 2004 at the same time it ordered from Moscow 100,000 AK-103 and AK-104 assault rifles to replace its security forces' aged FAL rifles and prepare militias for what Chávez described as a potential guerrilla war against a U.S. invasion.

At the time of the purchase, the U.S. Department of Defense issued a statement saying it ``raised questions about the final goal. Our concern over this weapons purchase grows given Venezuela's tolerance toward groups such as the FARC, ELN and others.''

RELATIONS WITH FARC

An investigative story published last month in Spain's El País newspaper reported that Venezuela's relations with the FARC are ``extensive and systematic . . . in regard to the air, land and sea transportation of drugs; the provision of weapons; and the protection from the [Venezuelan] armed forces that they receive on the [Venezuelan] ground.''

''A European diplomat and various official sources that El País has contacted assert that there is complicity and cooperation of important elements of the government that Hugo Chávez heads with the mafia and military activities'' of the FARC, the report added.

The sources' conclusion, it added, ``is that the complicity is active and constant at the operative level.''

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking_news/story/387332.html

By slguy on Jan 20, 2008, 23:48 in Friendly Talkzone.

scotty says on Jan 21, 2008, 00:32:

not surprizing

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Robert Jorge says on Jan 21, 2008, 06:22:

Good post slguy. The article though does embellish a little. "Both guerrilla groups have a large number of AK-47 assault rifles that use 7.62x39 ammunition, a heavier caliber than most modern assault rifles." By far the most proliferous "assault" weapon on the planet is the AK-47 style rifle. So, the caliber 7.62 x .39 is NOT a "heavier caliber" than most modern assault rifles - it is the most common caliber, and other calibers are either smaller or larger.
The weapons the Venezuelans are retiring, the "aged FAL", actually shoots a much more powerful 7.62 x .51 round. This is the same caliber that is used in the US M60 machine gun, GE minigun, many police tactical sniper rifles, and is one of the world's most popular hunting calibers. Anyway, the article's writer probably was comparing, without mentioning, that the 7.62x39 is a larger bullet than the common 5.56mm / .223 used by the US, western Europe, and even Colombia. However, a larger bullet does not make it more sinister or lethal. The 5.56mm has a much higher velocity than the 7.62x39, and can produce an entrance wound the size of a nail hole, but an exit wound the size of a grapefruit (depending on bullet weight, rifling twist rate, and velocity).

I wouldn't get too excited about the Venezuelan ammunition finding it's way into FARC hands - unless it can be proven that Venezuela is purposely, as a State, supplying the FARC. More than likely, corrupt soldiers in the Venezuelan army steal the ammunition and sell it to whoever, and some of it finds its way into terrorist hands. 7.62x39 is so common and available on the world market, that it wholesales for as low as $.02 usd a round. You can buy it by the pallet in the US from sources as wide ranging as Czech Republic, South Africa, Russia, former Yugoslavia, etc. It is so cheap that you can buy a 20 round box of military surplus ammo cheaper than it would cost to buy 20 spent cartridge casings suitable for reloading. My point is that the FARC would have no problem getting their dirty hands on ammunition, regardless of the source. But if it can be proven that Venezuela has supplied the FARC on purpose like the article implies ... well than that is a whole other issue.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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El Polo says on Jan 21, 2008, 07:35:

intresting reply RJ. I was under the impression Colombia also uses a 7.62 round

is it safe to say a 5.56 round can produce more internal damage?

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El Polo says on Jan 21, 2008, 09:39:

also the M240B is now taking the role of the M60 which is some what outdated.

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slguy says on Jan 21, 2008, 09:43:

Yep, RJ. My guess would be corrupt sales, rather than instutitional support. With or without tacit approval. When you have bus drivers serving as Ministers, who knows what's really happening, I guess.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Robert Jorge says on Jan 21, 2008, 23:32:

Doc - you are "sort of" correct. jaja The current NATO issued rounds in 5.56mm, shot out of current NATO weapons are pretty stable. What I mean is, the weapons have a tight twist rate, typically 1 in 9. And the bullet weight is heavy for such a round, 60 grains or more. Ballistically speaking, they penetrate without massive destabilization. If a 5.56 is shot with a 55 or less grain weight bullet with a lower twist rate - like 1 in 12 or 14; when the round hits soft tissue, it instantly tumbles. The results are horrific. There were lots of people during the Vietnam period that tried to ban the caliber because of the terrible wounds the rounds would cause.

The NATO 7.62 is totally different than the 7.62 x .39 typical to AK (Kalashnikov) style rifles. The NATO 7.62 was based on the US .30 06, introduced in 1906. It is a huge, powerful round. Commercially, the 7.62 NATO is known as the .308 Winchester in the US. It is a slightly shortened version of the 30 06. It does a fantastic job at what it is meant to do, and its longevity is proof. It is an average weight round for a 30 caliber, and leaves the barrel at around 2700 feet per second.

The 7.62 x 39 was a direct copy of the German sturmgewer(sp?) assualt rifle's ammo from late WWII. Though it is the same caliber (width) of a 7.62 NATO, it is significantly smaller and lighter in power. The casing is about 1/2 inch shorter and holds approx 1/3rd the powder.

Gun nuts - like me - argue 5.56 vs. 7.62x39, similar to Mustang fans vs. Camaro fans. Both calibers are extremely deadly. The argument for a 7.62x39 is that it is a heavier piece of metal flying through the air. It is less likely to tumble and destablize after hitting leaves, wood, whatever than a 5.56. The guns that typically shoot the caliber (AKs and SKSs) are the most reliable weapons ever made. They are also dirt cheap. Check out the movie, "God of War" with Nick Cage.

However, the modern rifles that use 5.56mm are now nearly or equally reliable and robust as the AKs. They are generally WAY more accurate and also much more expensive. The guns issued to the Colombian military are Galil assualt rifles, imported or based on the Israeli Galil, shooting 5.56mm.

Either round, 7.62x39 or 5.56mm, would be terrible to be hit by. I wouldn't choose either. Both are capable of removing limbs, causing massive internal injury, etc. But, so are most hunting rounds / calibers. And most hunting rounds meant for medium or larger game are much more powerful.

To directly answer a question above: Potentially, yes, a 5.56mm can produce a much more catastrophic wound than a 7.62x39. A light weight bullet, fired at a high velocity, with a rifling rate of 1 in 12, would produce upon hitting a human in the torso, a pin prick hole upon entering and a wound cavity about the size of a softball. Virtually instant incapacitation when hit anywhere in the center of mass. Same with a hit in the central nervous system, but that goes for any caliber. Most military issue rounds in 5.56mm are now heavier weight, and thus hit without tumbling and do not cause the explosive wound cavity. So, taking that into account, .... I still wouldn't want to be hit with either round.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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El Polo says on Jan 22, 2008, 06:56:

Thanks for the Info RJ.

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jeremylaney@yahoo.com says on Jun 17, 2008, 20:42:

RJ, I know this is a bit of an old posting but I would like to know where exactly can you obtain 7.62x39 ammo by the pallet at wholesale at such a low price. Any info would be appreciated. thanks.
JL

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