Venezuela posses the strongest Air Force in the Region-Colombia counters

Totaso says on Dec 26, 2006, 11:16:

Warplanes Venezuela is not a threat to Colombia. The only threat Colombia has is the subversive groups within Colombia
I think Chile has the largest and most modern military armament in South America. In 2002 they purchased 10 new F16 fighters planes and recently they purchased 18 F-16s.

Wastelandlive says on Dec 26, 2006, 12:04:

I hate to say this... ... but the Falcon is in many ways inferior to the Flanker. I'd have to dig into the details of block 52, and what we know of the Sukhoyev export version to be sure about that.

That said... many developing countries have very imbalanced armed forces.

Does it matter if Venezuela has better air to air hardware? Are their pilots any good? Would it help Venezuela hold ground in the unlikely event that Venezuela chose to invade Colombia? What is at stake exactly? Some rocks in Lake Maracaibo?

It's best to move prudently in an arms race. Don't assume that because Hugo wants bigger toys, you must have them as well.

If I were the benevolent dictator of Colombia, I'd let the gringos worry about that security threat, and spend my time focused on the already impossible conundrum of peace and rule of law in my own land.

Wasteland

scotty says on Dec 26, 2006, 12:46:

Threat Venezuela is a threat to the whole region

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 13:12:

Most of the Chilean F-16's are second hand F-16's from Holland MLU version.The Peace Puma's use Derby Missiles which in air to air are out ranged by the Su-30.

Any one who thinks Venezuela is not a threat is delusional.The Block-52+ version can go head to head against the Su-30Mk-V with AIM-120D it will out range any thing the Su-30 can fire.The only edge the Su-30's have is manuverability and bigger payload capcity plus longer range.

With Hugo Chavez wanting to export his "Bolivarian Revolucion" who knows what he will do.He is already supporting FARC.

Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:00:

True words DonGringo Absolutely agree.He is a major threat.The total of 24 Su-30MKV's can fly from bases in Venezuela and strike any position in Colombia with immunity as the Kfir C.7's armed with Python-3 missiles will not be able to counter the Su-30MKV's in the air.Most troops in the jungle fighting the FARC can only be re-supplied by helicopter or air drops.These can be open season to patrolling Su-30MKV's that would provide top cover for a chunk of land the FARC wishes to conquer or a push deep into Colombia.

By that time it will be far to late to get any defense our ground units armed with 40mm Bofors Cannon and Mistral Manpads could knock down a few of them which is unlikely.It takes 2-3 years to have new aircraft you need maintenance facilities,depots,weapons storages,crew training,ground crew training,airfields and many other things which takes years to get and perfect.

As Don Gringo said these 24 aircraft are not a real threat to the US.Unless they were to attack US oil cargo installations in the Florida and Mexican gulf via Cuba or aerial refuelling.Other then that the USAF the with over 1,000 aircraft top of the line from F-22A's to F-15's can take on the Su-30MKV's.

It is better to prepare for war during peace time.This has been proven time and time again through out history.Air support would cut off our re-supply of troops.Ability to move men and material to the front and also cut off our airports as these would be the first to be attacked.

Yes Chavez is already supporting the FARC guerillas.This is why the US and Sweden have cut off any weapons deals they had with Venezuela.I'm not saying lets go on a weapons spree but this is a threat to the whole region.Which is why Brazil is going to buy Rafale fighters from France the Dutch in Aruba have brought in Dutch F-16's and Dutch Marines.

aztec says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:22:

The F-22A cannot be matched... ...by any known or projected fighter aircraft. A single F-22a can control the airspace over the entire South American Continent.

Having said that the aircraft from Russia, Sukhoi Su-30MK-V, is a serious threat to the other countries of the area.

I had the opportunity of being in the U.S. War College with some pilots from Chile. They are impressive and will get after you. Given the equipment they would probably be the best trained in South America.

Would have to regretfully agree with an earlier post that the American left probably will not come to your aid. So you had better prepare to defend yourself.

Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:31:

A single F-22A cannot control all of South American airspace.I could take them out by sending drone aircraft to appear like interceptors coming up to do battle.The F-22A fires it's six missiles then a Brazilian Mirage-2000 or Peruvian MiG-29 finishes it off.

I would say the best pilots are Colombian since we actually fly in combat conditions.The Chileans are good but they have not been in combat.

aztec says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:38:

not been in combat True.

aztec says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:40:

Some of us "Neocons"... ...would love for Chavez to shoot down one of those F-22A's.

Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:41:

Eejeje Su-30MKV is Raptor bait as I like to say :)
But Venezuela might also buy S-300 SAM system.This is a very real threat even to US Air supremacy.

aztec says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:50:

He is lucky we ... ...are preoccupied elsewhere.

Sr Tertius says on Dec 27, 2006, 08:17:

Never seen... so much BS so nicely packed.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Wastelandlive says on Dec 27, 2006, 09:16:

At last we agree on something What a bunch of wankers.

Wasteland

Giann says on Dec 27, 2006, 09:51:

DonGringo Excellent For the people who disagree with me and DonGringo show some respect please and respect our opinions.I served in the Colombian Army and recently was discharged.I have seen first hands I will not go into detail but my unit have been engaged by iiregular units near the Venezuelen border we could not identify them but most likely a FARC unit.We would be in running gun battles then they would cross over the Venezuelen Colombian border and we would be forced to break contact.There are some other things I dare not say which could cost lives that my unit has found in the area of operations.




DonGringo if the US would sell a Patriot-Pac-3 system these would be able to knock down Su-30MKV's.It would be cheaper yes.Nice Quotes on Sun Tzu.

The US already has a carrier battle group in the Carribean on operations.The only thing that is worrying is that the Su-30MKV's can be launched from secluded airfields in the jungle and hard to spot.They can fly under the radar similar to the Falklands war and attack US Aegis Frigates on picket runs with any ASM's they are armed with.

Monpirri says on Dec 27, 2006, 11:07:

Giann I have respect for you because you are part of the brave men who served in the Colombian Army!!!
But you sound like you are too concerned with Chavez's toys and the "Bolivian Revolution" He does not intent to use his weaponry against Colombia nor do the Venezuelan people have any interest to mess with Colombia in a large scale war. Chavez has his toys for protection against himself and as far as the “Bolivian revolutions;� the so called revolution is not about a war with its neighbor countries. A war against Colombia is a war that would involve several countries in the South America region and allies. Again, his motto or revolution it is not against Colombia.
I know you mentioned that there were confrontations near the Venezuelan border, I also watched the news last year when these incidents were happening, and I believe it also happened in the border with Ecuador. We need to focus on the current problems!!
Let’s not get into an arm race because of isolated engagements or because we want to do the same as another military leader.

Monpirri

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Wastelandlive says on Dec 27, 2006, 12:31:

More... It's not about respecting YOU, Giann. I respect you, and your service, and I don't doubt for a moment what you write about your personal experience on the Venezuelan border.

But should I respect uninformed opinions?

Being infantry doesn't really make you an air to air or surface to air expert: you might as well be debating brain surgery. For example... the Amram outranges anything the Sukhoyev can fire?

That would be the AA-10 Alamo... and you might want to check that fact. Obviously, genuine capabilities are classified. But even open sources will give you reason to doubt your assesment. (The F16 and the SU30 are of two totally different generations. The latter is far more capable.)

And you're MILES ahead of the guy claiming that one Raptor could establish air superiority over the entire continent of South America.

Start talking about military affairs, and suddenly every guy in the room is Napolean...

Seriously: you should be worrying more about the stuff you experienced directly - which is Colombia's true challenge - and less about Hugo wasting his money on big, fancy weapon systems that he won't maintain well, and his pilots won't know how to operate effectively.

If the government in Bogota can't effectively control Colombia's hinterlands... what makes you think that Caracas could?

Wasteland

aztec says on Dec 27, 2006, 12:41:

Wastelandlive, indeed my statement ... ...was a bit of hyperbole.

Giann says on Dec 27, 2006, 13:40:

Maybe I typed my words wrong I do not feel like I need to be respected around here.I'm just like any one else here I shouldn't be treated any special then any one else.What I was trying to say is that not that I'm being disrespected quite the contrary actually glad to have a nice healthy debate.It is that we should respect each others opinion.I read every ones post and take it into account.But when I see criticism like "your all shit" or some thing along those lines I feel like that is just a attempt to disrespect every ones opinion not just mine and not saying what you feel but putting people down.Which is not right.

I'm not an expert in Air-To-Air field nor did I say I ever was.But so far the Su-30MKV that have been pictured are unarmed so we can only speculate what missiles Venezuela ordered.The AA-10 Alamo at it's peak range can only hit targets such as a transport or a slow moving bomber not a fast and nimble fighter.You can have the best aircraft in the world but what it comes down to is training training and more training! It is the guy in the cabin of the fighter aircraft that makes the difference.

But as I was saying if we loose air superiority many of our Battolian size units in the jungle will not have ammunition or medical evac which will cost alot of lives not to mention food water and re-infocements.Venezuela is a very real threat.I'm not saying we should go spending most of our GDP on weaponry.But a simple purchase of around 32 modern F-16's.Colombia has US credit the only other nation in the world with Israel to have so.We can get good deals on aircraft with full weapons package such as AIM-120D and AIM-9X our aircraft can be data linked to US AWACS from Ecuador or Colombia where we will out range the Su-30MKV with out any AWACS support.

I can only imagine what would happen if we loose air superiority over a sector of our land or most of it.


DonGringo I think me and you are on the same page but I just worded what I wanted to say wrong.I hope I cleared it up.

[Note not me in the Picture I was behind the camera]


The Mi-17 helicopter in many cases would leave ammunition fresh clothing socks BDU's food weapons and other supplies for us to accomplish our mission.If we god forbid loose Air supremacy these large transport helicopters will be easy prey for any aircraft.It will leave alot of our units out in the open and cut from re-supply and medical evac.

elmexicano says on Dec 27, 2006, 16:04:

some interesting opinions The Su-30MK-V would make pretty fireworks if the US ever had to shoot them down. I wouldnt say the Falcon is inferior to the Flanker although the Flanker has some advantages over the Falcon, either way we (USA) are phasing out the Falcon to make way for the Stealth F-22A. Chavez can build his air force all he wants, you can't win a war with just air to air alone, if we ever had to intervene Venezuela better make a move quick before our nearly undetectable Stealth Bombers destroy their air field (we are best at that by the way). Either way who knows how good of pilots venezuela posses anyways.

HOOAH!

Hugo Chavez is the DEVIL and Communism is a disease

marcos

aztec says on Dec 27, 2006, 17:25:

Just how many pilots does Chavez have... ...who can successfully manage the Su-30MK-V in a combat situation? Seems he is wasting his money.

Certainly hope the planes don't come with Russian or Cuban pilots.

Robert Jorge says on Dec 28, 2006, 19:26:

Been reading all the posts. Interesting. Remember 2/3rds of the Gulf of Mexico is Eglin Airforce Base air territory. (sorry, don't have the vocabulary right now) Anyway, if Chavez tried anything outside of Venezuela, there are 5 airfields within strike range of Venezuela. NAS Pensacola, Eglin, Hurlburt, Tyndall, and whatever the name of the base in Tampa is. Key West has a functioning NAS as well as Homestead being capable of being reactivated. I agree, Chavez poses zero threat to the US. If he tried something with Colombia, I do differ in the opinion of many here; in that I would hope we could send a few F-15s, F-18s, and F-22s to target practice with Chavez's new toys. It would take maybe 24 hours - probably much less. Then, let the Colombian Army do what it's been doing. I don't think the US should get involved on the ground, but I also don't think the US should tolerate a friend getting beat up by some fat boy's new toys.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Giann says on Dec 28, 2006, 19:43:

Yes The US at any one time has AWACS and even F-16 jets inside of Colombia.So it may be faster then thought.

The US population may think of this as not there problem and we may be left for ourselves to fight.With out the proper weaponry or training 24 Su-30MKV's would have a field day at hitting any thing in Colombia at there choosing.

Sr Tertius says on Dec 28, 2006, 22:14:

Giann When a point has been made without evidence over and over and over again, and when you are exhausted of asking for such evidence, the only thing left to say is "bullshit." And that's what all this fuzz about Chavez is. Chavez supporting FARC? Evidence please. Also, if anyone cares to provide a hint of hard evidence that suggests that the increase in military expenditure in Venezuela is any more threatening to Colombia's national security than, say, the US's, then we can have an informed discussion. Before that, it's just undebatable bullshit.

Tell me of any informed opinion IN COLOMBIA that seriously (that excludes Fernando Londoño) suggests that Chavez is a threat to the region. The more extreme opinion I've heard is from Rangel (a very conservative guy) who, in synthesis, says "we should keep track of Chavez as much as of anyone else." I think all the fuzz comes from the US, and some people consume just too much of their media.

As a side note: How come nobody was so worry when Fujimori increased the Peruvian military expenditure and even initiated hostile actions against Ecuador? That should've worried us, shouldn't it? I mean, after all, we HAD a war with Peru not that long ago, whereas with Venezuela... a minor incident or two, nothing really serious, certainly not since the Barco administration.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

esanch36 says on Dec 29, 2006, 06:17:

Well if somebody said peru was a threat you would probably dismiss that too...so it doesnt really matter

esanch36

All right, I'll ask: How come it took three seconds to euthanize Eight Belles, but the Womens NBA is starting Year 12???

Sr Tertius says on Dec 29, 2006, 08:38:

esanch36 The problem is not whether it is Peru, Venezuela, or the fucking Norwegians. It's not whether it is an invasion, a meteor, or the evangelical rapture.

It's the lack of evidence.

Show me evidence, we discuss. Insist on rumors and hearsay, and I'll call it for what it is.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Monpirri says on Dec 29, 2006, 08:46:

Let's not worry about what other "Leaders" from other coutries are doing with their military toys. Venezuela is not a threat to Colombia or any country in South America.
Chile has been spending a lot in armaments for several years and you did not see Peru, Bolivia and Argentina running to purchase weapons.

Keep it cool and concentrate on current problems.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Sr Tertius says on Dec 29, 2006, 08:59:

For once, monpirri1 we agree.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Giann says on Dec 29, 2006, 09:37:

Well Chile is spending alot since the copper prices.The Military automaticly gets a chunk of the copper sales.Chile's small population and it's weapons are not being bought in big numbers.2 Scorpene SSK's.Peace Puma's mixed with second hand F-16's.As in the history of Chile if they attack Peru for example they will have a three front war with Peru,Bolivia and Peru.


I'm not talking out of my ass.Just becuase I'm not saying what I saw with my two eyes.If I didin't think Venezuela was not a threat I would not say so.But I do.


As for your proof.We have ALOT of it.This is just in 2002.With Venezuelen BDU's and ammunition found and other materials.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1793819.stm

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/177yckaw.asp?pg=2


Do you want some more or is that enough for you?

Sr Tertius says on Dec 29, 2006, 11:10:

Finally!!! Okay, let's debunk it. Let's put aside the fact that most of the evidence is very old news. Smuggling weapons over the Venezuelan (or Brazilian, or Ecuadorian) border precedes Chavez presidency and, AFAIK, has not increased over his tenure. Let's also put aside the fact that the Weekly Standard piece (like the whole paper) is mostly opinion, by a guy who probably can't read primary sources in Spanish and who clearly hasn't done his homework in Colombian history (e.g., FARC was not founded as the armed wing of the PCC).

The "Ruben Zamora" video, even if it is veridical (no proof of that yet), only demonstrates that Chavez has had contacts with FARC in Venezuelan territory. That has not been denied by the Venezuelan government, and the pretext of "humanitarian reasons" is neither new nor exclusive of Chavez: The Ecuadorians do the same, and pre-Chavez Venezuelan administration did the same. We have good reasons to believe that there is more than just "humanitarian reasons," but they are unlikely to amount to strategic or tactical support. Unless, of course, better evidence is provided.

The presence of FARC members in Venezuela simply shows that the Venezuela government has become tolerant of their presence. Nothing new there either. Colombia has not only been tolerant but even has provided asylum to Pedro Carmona; he is a criminal in Venezuela, but until he breaks the law in Colombia, he should have the same protections as any other foreign national. Most countries have appropriate procedures for international judicial cooperation, like the extradition of foreigners who have commited a crime in a different nation. Unfortunately, Colombia and Venezuela do not have the best instruments for cooperation (see details of legislation here http://www.oas.org/juridico/MLA/sp/traites/sp_traites-mla-col-ven-298.doc), and the choice of bribing Venezuelan officials to kidnap people of out Caracas surely isn't helping.

I'm not going to deny that the internal politics of Venezuela currently tolerate the presence of FARC members in their territories. But again, that doesn't consistute assistance or support of any kind. If the Colombian government wants to see those people in jail, it must play by the book, formalize instruments of judicial cooperation, and get them extradited. Until then, cases like Granda's make Uribe look far worse than Chavez.

Some Ven militaries have been reportedly selling weapons to FARC. Much better details than US or UK secondary sources are in the Colombian press (Revista Cambio, transcribed here: http://www.mipunto.com/jive/thread.jsp?forum=81&thread=5681). It is unclear the extent to which the Chavez administration is involved in this. It appears to me that securing the border so that weapons are not smuggled should be priority, regardless of the role of the central government in all of this.

Now, how about the evidence for the Venezuelan invasion of Colombia??

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Giann says on Dec 29, 2006, 12:01:

Sr Tertius You remind me of my brother.Any way.
A senior FARC figure was seized from within Venezuela, causing a diplomatic crisis.Harboring terrorist and tolerate the presence of FARC in Venezuela is a very big show of support in my opinion.The US recently cut all Military weapons export to Venezuela because they were funding and supporting terrorist in Colombia.I don't know about you but I think the US intelligence knows a fair bit more.Chavez is using the FARC as a proxy against the Government of Colombia in my opinion.

FARC has announced that it would go to the aid of Venezuela if the United States attacks Venezuela.This sounds like a alliance to me?

Sr Tertius says on Dec 29, 2006, 13:15:

"Harboring terrorist and tolerate the presence of FARC in Venezuela is a very big show of support in my opinion."

No, it isn't. And here is the problem: Vague terms like "harboring terrorists" do not promote debate and do not help solving the problem. If by "harboring" you mean the application of national laws in absence of better judicial cooperation mechanisms, then half the universe is harboring criminals. It's a problem, but catch phrases do not help understanding it nevermind solving it.

"I think the US intelligence knows a fair bit more."

I don't agree. Plenty of bad, very bad, precedents.

"FARC has announced that it would go to the aid of Venezuela if the United States attacks Venezuela"

I would go to Venezuela, or Ecuador, or Peru if it was invaded. Does that make me an ally of any of their governments? I think FARC and Chavez talk too much, and when it is convenient, some people in the US will give them more credit than they deserve.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Giann says on Dec 29, 2006, 20:22:

Agreed Chavez talks alot as does FARC.But can they back it up when they have acquired a capable military machine in the coming years?

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 29, 2006, 22:22:

Speaking of Sun Tzu The best way for the Colombian military to fuck itself six ways to Sunday would be to start wasting resources defending against the straw man threat of Chavez's fighters rather on than arming the Colombian forces with proper air-to-ground weapons systems.

Give the Colombian airforce a dozen A10s and the munitions to run through them, and the FARC's standing forces would be done within a week.

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 29, 2006, 22:24:

One other thing Hugo is certifiably paranoid about a gringo invasion. That's why he wants fighters. It's a sad waste of money that could be much better spent helping Venezuela in a dozen other ways, but those planes were never about an arms race with Colombia.

aztec says on Dec 30, 2006, 05:45:

Mr. Hollywood can't you just see the worlds outrage! "Give the Colombian airforce a dozen A10s and the munitions to run through them, and the FARC's standing forces would be done within a week."

That would be so inhuman a method of killing guerrillas.

Wastelandlive says on Dec 30, 2006, 08:14:

Geeze. What a complete load of bunk, A.

I'm always amazed at how you can use flawless logic to come up with completely ridiculous conclusions.

Granting Pedro Carmona assylum in Colombia is not remotely analogous to "tolerating" the FARC in Venezuela.

But it's nice of you to admit - finally - the latter.

Let's see... Carmona: has-been coupster, living in Bogota, minding his own business. Criminal? Yes. Actively pursuing criminal activities? No.

(Hence assylum.)

FARC: armed insurgents, terrorists, narcotrafficers, extortionists, and kidnappers, camped out on the border with Colombia, using Venezuela as safe haven for operations within Colombia.

Ya. That's the same thing.

Of course! Why didn't I see it? It's a law and order problem. Colombia should simply identify every FARC member hiding out in the Venezuelan jungle, and petition Caracas to arrest and extradite them.

Problem solved!

Wasteland

Sr Tertius says on Dec 30, 2006, 10:34:

Mr H. Yes, except one thing: A-10s to finish FARC? Maybe the sarcasm was too subtle for me.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Giann says on Dec 30, 2006, 18:30:

About the A-10's They are not offered for export with the 30mm GAU gatling gun.But we already purchased 24 Super Tucano ground attack aircraft from Brazil.I believe 3 are delived thus far.

These are the Super Tucano aircraft fresh from Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer.They coast a total of 250 Million USD for 24 Aircraft and 1 simulator.

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 30, 2006, 21:18:

I don't see anything bolted to that Tucano that would plow up a soccer field in 3 seconds flat.

The Colombians need two things that would be really useful to beating the farc, militarily. 1 is precision bombing, so they can actually hit Tirofijo or Raul Reyes without accidentally taking out the house next door (When he's visiting from Caracas or Quito, of course). The other thing would be the ability to provide consistant and reliable air support to their ground troops all over the country when they're getting hit by the FARC. I'm no military expert but it doesn't seem they've got those things currently. If they do and still aren't winning, well, that changes the whole picture.

Wastelandlive says on Dec 30, 2006, 21:57:

??? A10's are superb killers of armor and infantry concentrations. The FARC aint got that.

Precision bombing is useful in many environments; the jungle isn't one of them.

I mean... if you could find Tirofijo, would you really be worried about the collateral damage you cause when you take him out? It's not like he's living somewhere around the Plaza de las Americas or in a safe house in Parque 93.

Colombia's air force provides precisely the tools that it needs for this conflict: air cavalry, transport, reconnaissance, and some - rarely used - CAS capability.

But this fight won't be won from the air. Punto.

I have my doubts that it will ever be won so long as prohibition remains fundamental to US and domestic and foreign policy. But the last thing any Colombian president who hopes to better things needs to spend money on is expensive war machines.

More soldiers, more police, better salaries for both, more social programs, more healthcare, more safety, more infastructure, more economic development, BETTER EDUCATION... but not fancy jets.

No offense, but I don't know how that could be any more obvious.
_________________

Giann: I hereby respectfully request that you start a new thread, and teach us about your personal experience as - what, infantry? Aircav mobile? - along the frontier.

I'd like to know how that works.

I'd also love to hear the opinion of a military man - officer? Noncom? - over the tragic and obviously premeditated murder of the antinarcotics unit by an army unit working for narcos.

Wasteland

Monpirri says on Dec 31, 2006, 12:12:

I agree with Westlandive,
"But the last thing any Colombian president who hopes to better things needs to spend money on is expensive war machines.

More soldiers, more police, better salaries for both, more social programs, more healthcare, more safety, more infastructure, more economic development, better salaries, BETTER EDUCATION... but not fancy jets."

Colombia needs to spend more in resources as the ones listed above and the government needs to spend more in building an aggressive intelligence agency to find out where the subversive groups are hiding out. Venezuela is not the responsible for what it’s happening today in Colombia. Let’s deal with the current problems step- by- step and let’s start from home…
Yes, Colombia Army has combat experience, but maybe one or two super fast aircrafts equipped with laser-guided missiles and with infrared or thermal capabilities would not be a bad idea to help end the pandemonium

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 31, 2006, 14:27:

Wasteland I've heard it from people in the Colombian forces who should know that they've flat out missed before while trying to bomb top FARC targets (ie. command level), so I'll stick by my suggestion that precision bombing abilities would be useful. Maybe the Tucanos have improved the overall bombing ability since when I had that conversation. I've also heard it from similarly well-placed folksin the Colombian forces that providing air-to-ground support for troops in remote regions is a problem, so I'll just have to take their word for it. Hopefully the new Tucanos improve that situation, too.

Wastelandlive says on Dec 31, 2006, 17:56:

Mr. H Stick away. I'm not trying to tool, just inform.

With ten years of TACAIR experience, I have some small knowledge of what I write.

Here are some thoughts: JDAM - a GPS guided munition - is a great weapon if you want to hit, say, a fixed target of known coordintates. Do your friends have acurate GPS coordinates on top FARC targets? Does the FARC hang out at fixed addresses in urban environments? Does it stick to grid coordinates, or easily identified features like the intersection of two rivers?

No?

OK... but we know they're out there. Maybe we can put a laser on them! I've lofted a few laser guided bombs myself. Combined with an infra red targetting scope, they work wonders, especially at night. But you need to be able to recognize your target on the scope - hopefully it's something distinctive, like a bridge, a bunker or a building.

Unfortunately, neither infra red targetting systems nor lasers are particularly good at penetrating a jungle canopy.

Now... the foregoing explanations don't really adress two fundamental precepts that might not be understood among laymen: the first is that precision bombing is as much about NOT hitting the wrong target as it is hitting the right target. The second is that the flipside of more precisely hitting targets is reducing the risk to the aircrew by reducing the number of sorties needed to hit those targets, and changing the attack profile from a risky dive bomb to that of a much safer high altitude delivery.

What kind of FARC targets are we talking about? Small military bases hidden in the wilderness, right?

There is little or no risk of collateral damage there (unless you are a PETA advocate). So if dumb bombs aren't precise... use more dumb bombs. The allies had no problems hitting Dresden, right?

And there's not too much risk in dive bombing the FARC... at least not until they start towing around radar guided AAA systems.

Now.. the air-to-ground support to which you refer (CAS) is a thornier problem because your own people are on the ground. In THAT case you may not be able to bomb indiscriminately, NOR take advantage of precision bombing because the situation is too dynamic: the enemy is close to your own forces, and neither your guys or theirs are easily identified from the air: they're just men and jeeps, who look a lot alike, running around and shooting at each other.

In that case, you have to let your ground troops or a FAC talk your eyes onto the target. Most importantly, you have put the nose of your aircaft on it, so they can confirm that you agree on the target. (All the precision in the world won't help if it's locked onto your own guys.)

You might be able to use a precision bomb, in such a case... maybe: in the few seconds remaining, it's difficult to take your eyes off the target, look at your scope, and and lock the laser to the target (which may be moving). (Think of spotting an aircraft in the sky and then trying to look at it with binnoculars - you lose it, right?)

It's a lot easier to just stay on your attack profile and pickle on the enemy.

But the larger question is... why go to the trouble and expense? If you're dive bombing some guy in the jungle, you are already exposing yourself to groundfire. You've given up one advantage that precision munitions buy you already.

And the guidance module mounted on the bomb you're using costs an order of magnitude more than the - what? Jeep? Jungle kit? FARC soldier? - you're killing.

If your "friends who should know," "well placed in the Colombian forces" don't understand all of the above, I suspect that it's because you are not talking to aviators. If they are soldiers, they may be bitching because they don't understand the risks and challenges inherent to CAS missions, and they don't think their aviators are as good as they should be. (All soldiers want miracles from their air cover: if you or I were being shot at, we'd want them too.)

Perhaps they are right, and Colombian aviators need more training. It couldn't hurt. But I'm guessing that the Colombian airforce is small and combat experienced.

Regardless, buying them A10's won't help.

Have I persuaded anybody yet?

COLOMBIA DOES NOT NEED EXPENSIVE, FANCY WEAPON SYSTEMS.
__________

The Tucano is a great platform for it's intended mission. You'll note that it's propellor, not jet driven. It's slower, easier to handle, cheaper to buy, and cheaper to maintain. No, it won't be able to run away from an SU30, much less fight one. It won't take out Soviet armored divisions, nor withstand intensive ground fire like an A-10 would. And it would be vulnerable to MANPADS and basic ground to air defense systems.

But it's great at finding, chasing down, and bombing and strafing scumbags running around the hills with AK47's. It's better at that than an F-16 would be.

Wasteland

Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 31, 2006, 22:32:

Thanks Hey, glad to hear your above explanations, which all make sense. I threw the A10 out there because it's widely known as a badass, blunt force instrument, not because I have any specialized knowledge of air force tactics. So no need to get hung up on that. I totally agree, as I'm sure you noticed if you read my post about the "threat" of Chavez, that the FAC doesn't need to go spending scads of money on overly expensive weapons platforms.

One thing about your post above, however, is that I suspect that it's a misperception that the powers that be in the FARC spend most of their time hiding out deep in triple canopy jungle. I won't be surprised at all when one finally meets his maker in a small town along the Venezuelan or Ecuadorian borders. Or when one gets picked up in Quito or Caracas.

goin_south says on Jan 1, 2007, 07:22:

One Call: Solves it all: Washington, D.C. DG said: "there is nothing Colombia could do to stop it (Chavez's Air Cover for Farc); of that I have no doubt." ???

AU: "Uhh,... Mr President, we have a problem, and need a little help down here."

y, un mil gracias.

Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 1, 2007, 11:25:

Exactly And with the current administration in Washington, there's nothing they'd love more than to get that call, Galecito.

goin_south says on Jan 1, 2007, 23:16:

You are probably right: Sadam is dead (we think).
S.A. is alot closer to home (than Iraq).
and reportedly, maybe Chavez has EVEN MORE OIL.

y, un mil gracias.