U.S: Piss off, or make yourself comfy?

kernow62 says on Apr 21, 2005, 13:20:

Colombia needs all people in the US to stop using drugs right this minute. ja ja

What a country, did you know in some parts of the US you are required to pay a tax on your illegal drugs for which you receive a tax stamp. This way when you are caught with these illegal drugs at least the government will know they have collected tax on them. Crazy gringos!

Make drugs legal in the US, and tax them, not illegal and tax them.

The resulting lowered profits from drug sales would squeeze the FARC in the pocketbook. Then Uncle Sam could be the world's pusher and reap the tax benefits.

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bufalo says on Apr 21, 2005, 13:23:

When in Santa Marta, people constantly told me that the US should "come into" Colombia to clean up the guerrillas, drugs, etc. I told them that that would involve a lot of negatives and that it wasn´t just a simple thing to do. I son´t know if they feel the same way after seeing what is happening in Iraq.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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pappasito says on Apr 21, 2005, 13:40:

Over the years... I have heard many Colombianos say they wished the U.S. would be more involved in the war with FARC,some even to the point of invasion.. But I would think that opinion has pretty much changed,now that Uribe is kicking some butt...

Pappa

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 21, 2005, 14:11:

Veronica's question The answer to your question depends a lot on which Colombian you ask. Somehow I doubt the person getting their coca field destroyed by Plan Colombia likes it. But the person who is getting rescued by American trained anti-kidnapping police probably loves it.

On the whole, I'm surprised by how little anti-Americanism I've encountered in Colombia. I guess it's hard to say no to a billion dollars in aid a year.

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Sonny says on Apr 21, 2005, 15:02:

Veronica It makes me wonder what your coca field looks like when you talk this way. I have spent a lot of time in Colombia and you are the first I have ever heard say what you said. It is funny. I was on my way with friends in Cali. We were stopped at a police check point. The police man looked into the car and said, Oh, you have an American with you. You can go on. BUT, you must protect him at all cost.I thanked him and shook his hand and went on about my business.
I guess opinions are muc like a BUTT, everyone has one.

Friends???? How do you place a value on that?? They are like memories, without them you have nothing

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 21, 2005, 15:31:

We think the US should stay the hell out and let the narcos divide up the country.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Sonny says on Apr 21, 2005, 18:20:

One more step in the move out process. Let's build a 100 foot wall around the US and not let anyone in or out. Keep or tax money here and take care of our own. We can use the people that hate the US on the outside of the wall to keep those that do not from coming in. If we did not have to send Billions of dollars to these countries we would be able to have better medical care, feed the poor, remove the people on welfare, pay our own ploice more money, WOW the things we could do. Like a dream that is in color. We could watch TV and see who had what part of these countries this week. The NARCO's this week the FARC next week. We could even take odds on who it could be. This could be fun. The possibilities are endless.

Friends???? How do you place a value on that?? They are like memories, without them you have nothing

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kernow62 says on Apr 21, 2005, 20:09:

Who says the US has to send billions of dollars to other countries? I don't think most folks are so naive to think that the US doesn't also have an agenda tied to these billions, nothing is given away without a damn good reason. If you play by the rules the way the US wants then OK you can have a few billion, of course if you don't agree with the US we reserve the right to bomb the shit out of you, or perhaps starve your people with a blockade. Why because we are the US. The biggest baddest are the top dog and right now that is the US.

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platano says on Apr 21, 2005, 20:35:

Kernow62, Colombia should align itself differently.... You say: "because we are the US. The biggest baddest are the top dog and right now that is the US." Actually if you listen to Greenspan the USA is weakening daily.

This proposition that the USA is the biggest baddest has suddenly become debatable due to George Bush wasting billions of dollars spending... I mean charging on a credit card.... on things like Plan Colombia.

Colombia would do well to align themselves a bit more with the real superpowers of the world: the up and coming India and China. Won't be long now, as GIB says.

Platano

plátano

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kernow62 says on Apr 21, 2005, 21:07:

That was my precisely my point Platano right now meaning I do not see it lasting at the rate we are going.

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 21, 2005, 21:33:

Good idea, Platano. I bet the Indians and Chinese would do a helluva lot of blow if they were getting some of Colombia's finest. The Chinese are getting Marlboros - now all they need is some coke to go with it.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 21, 2005, 23:52:

Interests behind foreign aid Tinto: Let me qualify your statement a bit. Donor countries, IMHO, don't have interests. Instead, I'd say that national governments are vehicles for the interests of those who exert effective control over those governments. As the saying goes, follow the money trail. And if you look at the guys controlling the national governments in the first world, you know they are not the kind that pays for your lunch. Foreign aid (like Plan Colombia) usually translates into subsidies for local interests (like the military industry in the US).

But check this out, it gets even better: Plan Colombia is mostly paid by the Colombian treasury (4 of the 7.5 billion), right? Now, the US involvement implies the tacit agreement that military equipment not produced in Colombia will be preferrably bought in the US (remember the scandal of the Brazilian airplanes?). This is quite a work of art: Through foreign aid directed at them, it is the Colombians that are subsidizing the US military industry with their own money. And then we have to say "thank you" and behave like good little boys, and say yessir to Iraq, yessir to FTAA, and yessir to any other whim of the folks in Washington.

What was the topic? "Are Colombians happy with the U.S involving themselves with the drug problem in Colombia." Oh, the drugs, right, I forgot. Save the children and all that crap. Sure, that's what the folks at Lockheed-Martin are thinking about: the children, ha ha ha.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"THANK YOU"? I'll tell you what to do with your "THANK YOU"!!!

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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expatriate says on Apr 22, 2005, 05:56:

The guerillas The real story is that the guerillas can stay out of trouble and market all the coke they want IF they follow the arrangement. The arrangement is to cut the Bush family in on enough of the profits.

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chaparon bonaparte says on Apr 22, 2005, 07:05:

I dont think Colombia needs the help of the imperialistic US.
They put their noses in everyone elses business, telling everyone what to do but forget to keep their own house in order.

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 07:30:

Sonny, I like your idea.... Sonny wrote: "One more step in the move out process. Let's build a 100 foot wall around the US and not let anyone in or out. Keep or tax money here and take care of our own."

Just one more thing. Before we wall you gringos in to keep the world safe from you, why don't you give back all the stuff you've stolen: give the copper back to Chile, give Texas back to Mexico, etc. (OK, you already ate the fruit from Guatemala. Pay reparations.)

Then we'll wall you in (we'll pay for it) to create a big jail called USA and the rest of us will be a lot better off with all the stolen resources returned to us. You will do hard time.

We will also return to you all the military bases you have established in our countries and all your CIA operatives. I'm sure places like Okinawa will be happy not to have their girls being raped almost daily by your soldiers.

plátano

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gregshav says on Apr 22, 2005, 08:15:

INDIA Come on now.

I lost all respect for your opinion. Not in our lifetime, chico.

And obviously you don't realize what Greenspan is saying.

China will be a true power as soon as they play by the same financial
and monetary rules as everyone else. They've got the military, but they're still one of the most repressed societies on earth. Their people will turn that country upside down as soon as they get a taste of capitalism. Their is a 50/50 chance they will implode and break up like the Soviet Union before they ever realize their potential.

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 08:24:

Gregshav, yes, India! India may emerge as super power: Deputy PM

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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juanalejo says on Apr 22, 2005, 13:04:

Gregshav Have you ever been to China? It is years now that they know what private money is all about. Are they capitalist in the American sense, no will they ever be, hope not. If the US keeps finding excuses for their loss of influence in the world, they will loose it all. And for the world`s sake and specially for that of the US, lets hope China will not implode or explode. I think for some it is time to wake up and smell the tea.

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vladimiro says on Apr 22, 2005, 13:18:

The World's two great human oceans, India and China, have historically been very influencial; its no surprise that their influence on the world is again increasing after emerging from a long period of european colonialism.

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gregshav says on Apr 22, 2005, 14:36:

When they peg their money to a free floating market exchange rate, then they will have
arrived. Otherwise they are pretenders. When they have to compete
like the rest of the world on an even footing, we'll see what they are capable of. Otherwise their only power is the sheer number of people they have. Like I said 50/50 chance of implosion and country will unravel into small ethnic units like in Soviet Union.

The bottom line is this, the US still is the number one consumer in the world, when that changes, the balance of power may change. But if China keeps repressing their people, they are sitting on a time bomb. Too much wrong with the way the country is being run.

And sorry, India is way, way off. You know what, so far off, it will never happen.

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 14:49:

How's that again? "the US still is the number one consumer in the world"

Does that mean China is the number one producer? (99% of Walmart goods). (India is taking our service and electronic data work)

So, isn't the consumer nation (going deeper into debt) dependent on the ones who produce the goods and provide the services?

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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chaparon bonaparte says on Apr 22, 2005, 17:11:

I tend more toward PISS OFF GRINGOS and get your own house clean before you even DEAR to talk about other countries.
And especially get finally rid of that stupid president GW Maddog Bush.

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gregshav says on Apr 22, 2005, 17:28:

Actually China does not produce 99% of Wal Mart goods.

And if the #1 consumer cuts a supplier off, what happens, they crumble. It won't because the US believes in free trade.

The US, as well as many other developed countries run deficits from time to time, it will straighten itself out as it always has.
The bottom line is that if the US crumbles the whole world economy collapses, there is a vested interest on the part of every other country in the world to see that it doesn't. If a country can only export to the US, and the demand for their goods stop, and they are a poor country, they're toast. The US can if they choose, shift to other producing nations, the poor producers will be hard pressed to find the buyers to replace them.

The country that has the demand is in control, it's all about money, and someone else will step up to the plate and produce the supply.

The reality of the world economy is that all money is truly worthless, it's all a big house of cards, at any time it could crumble. All countries are so intertwined and dependent upon each other, no one can afford for any of their business partners to collapse or they will also. Is the US immune, of course not. But who is in a position to best fend for themselves if the world economy collapses? Everyone would be hurt, but the US could get by better than the others who HAVE to supply us to stay afloat.

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kernow62 says on Apr 22, 2005, 17:54:

China is in an interesting position. More and more producing nations are falling by the wayside while more and more are purchasing China's products. Perhaps as a single nation the US is the top consumer, but the rest of the world is a large enough market to support China, that doesn't even take into account China's own rapidly growing consumer base from within.

It is not only producing more and more of the world's goods but is also using more and more concrete, steel, oil etc. This alone should worry the US. China is now VW's largest market I believe, GM says they see the day when they sell more cars in China than the US, so now who is the consuming nation?

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 22, 2005, 18:08:

"The country that has the demand is in control" You need to qualify that statement a bit: Factor in the elasticity of such demand and then you may not be right for many products. Think oil.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gregshav says on Apr 22, 2005, 18:25:

And what has the price of oil done to the US economy. Next to nothing.
There are even studies that show that the high price is enough of a stimulant to certain parts of the economy that it offsets the negatives.

What will happen if the price of oil stays high? Alternative fuels will continue to be explored, solar, wind, hydro and others and in the end the % level of dependence will drop, and the oil producers will have only hurt themselves because demand will drop. Anytime soon, probably not, but if it continues, it will happen.

The big oil producing countries like Venezuela should be rolling in the money, but what has happened to poverty there? Nothing. What if the demand dried up? The country would starve.

And China is 5 times the size of the US and still is being outconsumed. China if it gets its financial act together without a doubt will be strong, but the question is whether it will, and if it can before the people revolt and completely change the style of government and economy. My guess is that it will break up into smaller pieces when the people get enough of a taste of the real world, they will want self determination. In the end it always happens to enlightened populations.

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 18:49:

Gee, gregshav, I admire you... I really know next to nothing about economics so I can only fake arguments... but what I try to do mostly is be creative. I'm kind of a dreamer. But when I read you say things like "high price is enough of a stimulant to certain parts of the economy that it offsets the negatives" it makes me think you are an even bigger dreamer than I am and I admire that. You seem to have such an absolute faith in the marketplace and laws of supply and demand. Increased debt and a devalued dollar... no problem! You are not bothered by scenarios where China moves out of the dollar market and into the Euro market leading to a collapse of the USA economy. I see elements of myself in you: innocence, naivete, a dreamlike dissociation from reality. And on top of all that your faith causes a buoyant optimism. Admirable! I enjoy your messages.

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 22, 2005, 18:52:

Greg I must say, I'm astounded by your ability to ramble from one topic to the next shooting predictions without evidence. Somehow IMF and World Bank haven't figured out how to introduce market deregulation (is this your "real world"?) in developing economies, but your magic ball seems to know exactly what factors affect the value of their most profitable commodity. You should lend your magic ball to them, or maybe you should work for them. Or maybe the people at IMF already have the same ball, and that's why they keep screwing up economies left and right: simplistic one-fits-all approaches usually don't work (Russia 1991? Malaysia? Thailand? Argentina? Bolivia? Colombia 1998?)

Illustration: My understanding -and if I'm wrong, please direct me to the data- is that alternative sources of energy in the US are not profitable, some (like windfarms) are heavily subsidized, and there is nothing indicating that the kind of incentives that work in a mostly deregulated energy economy like the US's is going to be flowing in any time soon. Oil consumption has been shown to be pretty inelastic in the US. Now, if the middle man in this business has a good grip on legislation, why would increases in price -and therefore revenue- derive in exploration of new unprofitable sources of energy? The incentives are just not there, and there are no precedents to this kind of transformation, or are there?

I don't know what "enlightened populations" is code for, but in my book "enlightened" is someone who operates on the basis of the best data, not on the basis of dogma.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gregshav says on Apr 22, 2005, 19:15:

Dogma That's good.

Actually I apologize if you think it was rambling, I was trying to answer the 2 responses to my previous post.

I drive through West Texas on a regular basis, and wind farms are popping up everywhere. The technology for solar power is getting better and better and the costs of both are coming down. Will it replace oil, of course not. But like I said if the % decrease in dependence goes down, it will hurt the oil producing countries who have nothing else to export. Why does Saudi Arabia get nervous about the price being this high? They don't want people converting to other forms of fuel. There are natural gas cars and hydrogen and hybrid cars are definitely on the increase. It's slow, but it's beginning.

Magic ball. HMMM. I think all I said was that China will basically implode before it becomes the world economic power that many are saying it will become. IMF and World Bank, I never mentioned, and to me are just bail outs for poor countries, developing countries just giving money to help out the less fortunate. Developing countries hate them because to borrow money they have to go begging. They aren't a factor in what I have been discussing.

Platano, why doesn't China move into the Euro and collapse the USA economy? Because they need to supply the US with goods, like I said they have a vested interest in the US not collapsing. By the way where I live the high oil price is great for the economy, West Texas oilmen are rolling in the dough, and buying property all over the mountains here in New Mexico. I just don't see a big drag on the economy, but then again I'm just naive. I don't have an absolute faith in anything, but capitalism has worked better than anything else out there.

Sr. Tertius, I know I'm rambling, just trying to answer all the comments that were made. Enlightened, was referring to the Soviet Union, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslavakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc. they started to open up the society, the markets, the people got tired of repression and wanted self determination. I know that's a simple way of putting it, but if I'm wrong, go ahead and tell me all about it.

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 19:24:

gregshav, Glad to hear things are going well in West Texas. Enjoy it while you can! The USA only has a population of 300 million so I don't think it's the consumer market you think it is, not to mention that great parts of it are what is referred to as the "rust belt," lots of unemployment, structural unemployment, people who don't even enter the statistics because they stopped looking for work. It's not a pretty picture in the Midwest or even the Northeast. But I am glad to hear things are rosy in West Texas. Giddiiiup!

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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gregshav says on Apr 22, 2005, 19:38:

Since the US is in such a state of despair where in the world is there a good economy.

Lots of unemployment - 5.2 %.
I understand about structural and people who stop looking, they're called deadbeats looking for a handout. If you want a job in the US there is one available. Maybe not the job you desire, but a job nonetheless.

And if it's not the consumer market I think it is, then why is it still #1.

Look, I don't think the US economy or country is without its problems, far from it. I know this discussion hasn't gone into other areas that the US could improve on. I despise politicians and the government here, not just Bush and the current leaders, the Democrats too. The government is gradually taking more rights from the people and is too strong and there is no going back. Will the US eventually crumble, of course. I read history and know it's only a matter of time. My point is, it won't happen in my lifetime or as soon as some think. (I'm 40) That's up for debate, and obviously people here differ. That is why I keep going back and forth with you guys. I like the differing opinions. But there is a reason I plan on buying an apartment in Santa Marta or Cartagena with my Calena. I feel that if I can accumulate enough wealth here, that I can live in the laid back environment of Colombia on less income and be much, much happier. That is the one thing that I think the US is missing. People truly enjoying life and spending quality time with family and friends, relaxing and realizing the beauty that this world has to offer. I'm busting my ass making money here as fast as I can, so I can retire as soon as possible and go to Santa Marta, and sit on my ass and drink cerveza and dance salsa with my chica.

OK, that's enough, but guys, I do respect your opinion, although I may not fully agree, I do see the points you're making.

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 22, 2005, 21:43:

I'm reading this nonsense and I'm thinking, "WTF does any of this have to do with Colombia?". Peter should rename the site PoorButHappyUSA because most of the threads and comments have more to do with the US than Colombia. Why, I don't know.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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juanalejo says on Apr 23, 2005, 07:07:

UC There is a very simple answer to why things turn on topics of the USA very often. It is because the high percentage of Americans who love to critize Colombia on a constant basis, comparing their "perfect" lifestyle to that of those in our beautiful Colombia. Obviously this creates a reaction from many people, including me, who do not have the USA in very high steem, for what ever reason. So if Americans want to keep their country from being discussed in this forum, they should first take some lessons on cultural awareness so you can then critize in a manner that will be well received by others. Maybe take some lessons from those non Americans who are good are backing their appreciations and who do not base them just on personal opinions from a your own small perspective, but from a broader and more educated one.

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platano says on Apr 23, 2005, 07:33:

If the USA wasn't "tan metido" in Colombia's affairs.... The topic of this thread is related to USA involvement in Colombia and the drug war and it is very easy for me to see how related that is to larger economic questions involving the USA economy and other superpowers. And when someone talks about moving to Colombia to be happy I can imagine that a gringo's feelings might be hurt, especially if that person is already happy in the USA.

I appreciate gregshav's comments and perspective. I'm actually a sucker for perspectives that are not liberal/conservative which is why I like the Colombian Oxigeno Verde party. Both liberals and conservatives are in favor of military solutions to fighting the drug war in Colombia. Oxigeno Verde takes a more pacifist approach.

I think there are some important truths to be gained by going beyond the liberal/conservative duopoly and examining issues like USA involvement with the drug problem in Colombia.

But maybe that's just me. :)

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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manuelm6 says on Apr 23, 2005, 09:30:

I'd say... that there are some encountered opinions... as some ppl see USA as a salvation... and some others see it as a serious menace... but in my personal opinion... some backup wouldn't hurt at all, only if their army doesn't put a foot on colombian soil (we still can handle that ourselves)... also.. they should keep hands off many aspects concerning colombians only... anyway... I sent you a message veronica.. but I'm starting to think you didn't recieve it... bye!

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platano says on Apr 23, 2005, 09:41:

So Colombians provide the bodies and the blood and.... the USA only provides trainers, money, and equipment.

manuelm6 wrote:
"only if their army doesn't put a foot on colombian soil (we still can handle that ourselves)"

I think the gringos should be quite happy with that arrangement! The gringos can say: "We didn't invade Colombia. We let the Colombians do the dying. We only encourage them and help them kill each other...."

But if Colombians don't do a good job for the USA remember that the official policy of the USA government is they reserve the right to "preemptively" invade Colombia. So you may not have a choice about whether their army puts its feet on Colombian soil.

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 23, 2005, 09:49:

About the world bank Gregshav, I agree with a number of your economic observations but I think your statement that the World Bank and IMF exist to "bail out" poor countries is somewhat naive. I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist but those two institutions, particularly the WB, behave more as if their mandate is to push vast loans on poor countries for "benefits" in the form of huge projects that ultimately enrich the already rich and do little for the masses. But, it's the country and the masses who get stuck with the debt. Oh, and who does the projects? US and European corporations like Bechtel and Halliburton.

It takes a strong leadership in a 3rd world country to resist this model, considering the opportunities for personal enrichment at the cost of the whole country.

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we_love_colombia says on Apr 27, 2005, 03:17:

i think youve raised an excelent point here...i am confused as well and my mum is like 'we need all the help we can get from da U.S but then my dad is like 'THEY ARE ALL CORRUPT!!!' which is a bit mean but did u lot hear about those american soldiers who actually bought drugs and tried to sneak them back to the u.s but got caught. The U.S tried to cover that up didn't they....

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kikiortiz11 says on Apr 27, 2005, 07:45:

US AID We all know that US aid plays a huge role in Colombia, and that it is much needed. But, I disagree with the strategy the US is taking with their aid. The fumigations are no good. They are doing more harm then any radification. US aid should aim more to eradicating hunger, and putting more children into schools, but at the same time strengthening our armed forces. US should give our army more modern equipment and more offensive weaponery. In my standards kidnappings, extortions, and bombings are more offensive to our society than any narcotraffic.. I think we should set extradition aside to open up posibilities for peace dialogue. But will it be possible with so much US pressure? we would eventually loose our aid... wich will show once again that US is not here in Colombia as a brother country, but as a greedy monster..(I refer to most of the political class)

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

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we_love_colombia says on Apr 28, 2005, 04:54:

drugs are crap arent they.....

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2005, 05:11:

Yes drugs are crap... But the reality is they are here to stay. Legislation will not make them go away...The lid to pandoras box has been removed and destroyed..get over it.

T

"cook some rice!"

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INES MARIJA says on May 3, 2005, 13:31:

hi I ALWAYS TOUGHT THAT US ARMY THINKS THAT THEY ARE GOD. PROBLEM ONE COUNTRY IS THERE PROBLEM AND IF YOU WANT TO HELP, ASK PEOPLE WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO HELP.
I AGREE WITH KIKIORTIZ11

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utopiacowboy says on May 6, 2005, 22:21:

There is one thing that Colombians and Americans share. Neither of them take any criticism of their respective countries well. It's nice to be proud of your country but nationalism is what's f**ked up this planet.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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