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U.S. abandons Colombia

U.S. abandons Colombia

BY CARLOS ALBERTO MONTANER

Colombia must prepare to stand starkly alone. It is very likely that military aid from the United States will vanish in the near future, as Republicans and Democrats do battle.
President Alvaro Uribe may be winning the war in the Colombian jungles, but he's losing it in Washington.

It is not true that the two U.S. parties unite patriotically when faced with major foreign-policy challenges. That's part of the American mythology. If there's any electoral advantage in throwing overboard a foreign ally (or supporting him), Republicans and Democrats will do it. The only immovable principle is that elections must be won at any cost and under any pretext.

Nor should Colombians expect the slightest solidarity from their ''Latin American brothers.'' That's another myth. The feelings that prevail in the region are either indifference or satisfaction over the dangers that loom over Colombian democracy.

The countries in the southern cone are indifferent. Brazil -- despite the refinement of its ruling class -- is a giant with feet of clay and a soccer ball for a head.

The governments of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua and, of course, Cuba are happy. Panama, which once was a Colombian province, fears the consequences but, given its limited specific weight, can do little or nothing.

Mexico, under the Estrada Doctrine of ''nonintervention in the affairs of another state,'' achieved total insignificance in foreign-policy years ago and has defended it stubbornly.

Hugo Chávez is rubbing his hands. He has a plan, and Colombian intelligence is aware of it. It seems he convinced the drug-trafficking, communist-leaning guerrillas to collaborate in a strategy that will lead the so-called Democratic Pole to victory in the next elections.

The Venezuelan colonel is willing to spend whatever is needed: $10 million, $50 million, $100 million. The gush of petrodollars is enough to bankroll those imperial spasms. After the triumph in Colombia, Peru will fall of its own weight in the next elections, maybe by the hand of Ollanta Humala -- and the conquest of the Andean arch will be complete: 100 million people.

In sum, after amending the views of Lenin and Fidel Castro, Chávez proposes to repeat the Venezuelan experience in Colombia. That experience has become a universal theory for the seizure of power: You win the elections, write a Constitution that destroys the foundations of a republican structure and wipes out all vestiges of individual rights, gradually silence the opposition, nationalize the means of production and militarize the population under a deluge of revolutionary slogans.

Then you become part of the glorious 21st-century socialism, a guayabera-and-red-beret version of the Soviet madhouse that was mercifully torn down last century.

Can Colombia resist, without allies, the hurricane that approaches? It all depends on the common sense of the democratic political class. Previous experience has not been very encouraging.

In Venezuela, Ecuador and Nicaragua, the democratic political class committed suicide. It irresponsibly walked into the slaughterhouse. It chose to go blind as long as it could poke its political rival in the eye, even though both belonged to the same democratic family. Finally, when both were blind, the enemy of republican values leisurely took over the presidential palace and began the demolition.

The theory heard most often in Colombia is optimistic. People think that ''it cannot happen in this country.'' Why not? Supposedly because of the country's political tradition and society's adherence to the rule of law; and because Colombians know the meaning of a triumph by the left, with the drug-trafficking, communist guerrillas standing in the shadows. That is why Uribe retains 70 percent of the popular support: He represents what Colombians really want.

I don't believe that theory. Colombia, too, can fall.

In 1989, Venezuelans gave Carlos Andrés Pérez the greatest endorsement at the polls of any president in the nation's history. In 1991, surveys showed that he enjoyed 70 percent of the popular support. In 1992, one day after Chávez attempted to overthrow him by a military coup, it was learned that 65 percent of the Venezuelans sympathized with the putschist officers.

The conclusion is obvious: Democratic values are hanging by a thread in Latin America -- and Colombia is no exception. There are too many problems, there is too much poverty, and the governments have been thoroughly clumsy in the search for solutions. Our countries are within the grasp of any populist, leftist adventurer who will promise people the moon.

They're waiting for it.

©2007 Firmas Press
© 2007 Miami Herald Media Company. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.miamiherald.com

And we shouldn't "re-evaluate" our relationship with anybody if this happens?

By Simon on Aug 7, 2007, 11:06 in Politics & the war.

Miguel_Clavo says on Aug 7, 2007, 11:22:

I think the US will be shooting itself in the foot if they withdraw support....i say whack all those fokd up politicians in Congress, both jackasses and elephants, and put some non-corrupt anti-potatoheads there. But in true American fashion (USA), we dont have the gonads to see anything through...if the support for Colombia fails, it will be just another notch in the belts of those retards in office and the pinhead american public, both of whom have thier own interests at heart and not the people or society as a whole..The US wont be defeated from the outside, it will be from the inside....

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miamigo says on Aug 7, 2007, 11:43:

Carlos Alberto Montaner is a crackpot Cuban. He's been writing the same crap for years. Look at this article he wrote that was posted here at PBH in January 2005.. He still thinks Chavez is out to succeed where Bolivar failed. Like that's going to happen. Goes to show you that Miami isn't the only place where nutty Cubans live, some of them live in Spain, like Montaner.

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Miamigo says on Aug 7, 2007, 11:44:

No more posting links here? Here's the link to the post from 2005: http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/war-possible-in-the-next-few-yea...

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 7, 2007, 13:04:

Agreed, the article is very simplistic. However, let's assume it's true for a moment, and the only thing standing in the way of a Chavez takeover of Colombia is Plan Colombia. Why doesn't Colombia pony up $600 million a year to "save" itself? That's a pretty small price to pay to maintain one's sovereignty. THAT'S a question the author fails to ask.

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jarhead says on Aug 7, 2007, 13:58:

I think the best thing that can happen to Colombia is a "pinochet like" government, a kind of totalitarian government that would clean up all this filth that we call the FARC, ELN, Paraco/politicians, traquetos, common criminals etc...and give them the Pinochet special, kick their ass out of a military cargo plane at 30,000 feet with no parachute....that would be the best thing that could happen here,,,, shit, with this much mayhem and bullshit going on at the same time here in Colombia, I would welcome a Chavez takeover, trust me, we would not be any worse off than we are now....

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cobbook6104 says on Aug 7, 2007, 14:13:

R U loco!! You have freedoms now u would never have with a Chavez government. That is by far the stupidist thing I have heard.
#1 the U.S., like it or hate it, will never ler Chavez take over Colombia. Pride more than smarts!!!!!!!!!!
Colombia continues to be on a very fine line, para shit and everything else, but what the foqk jusst give up. You don't deserve to be happy. Just sit on your ass and write stupid shit like this.

Florida Bob

florida bob

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Simon says on Aug 7, 2007, 14:45:

"For crying out loud!!!! So what these Colombians are saying is they beleive the middle class hardworking American taxpayer should pay for a war in Colombia r"

What Colombians are saying anything? This article was written by a Cuban exile who lives in Spain. And nowhere does the article quote any Colombians!

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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pilotguy says on Aug 7, 2007, 15:55:

Usually I am quiet and just read. I have lived here for one year now. I am a colombian at heart and love this country. One great problem I believe is the lack of national pride or concern. No body goes into the military unless they are poor (of course are some exceptions). The attitude here is "the porr people are not my problem", "I do not want my son or daughter to go into the military, let some one else do it." Bitch, bitch, bitch, but take no action. Look at the phillipines, the peasants are turning in the guerillas. Killling them like crazy. I understand that my newly adopted country has great financial problems., however, solutions start with the people. O.K. off my soap box. Joe

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scotty says on Aug 7, 2007, 17:05:

I dont think the US abandoned Colombia I think the Dems abandon Colombia. If this makes you angry you havent seen anything yet, the dems control the congress and when they get in the White House in 15 months or so then you'll really see the shit start to fly.
The world has asked for it now they are gonna get it a completely controlled Washington DC by liberals..good luck America, good luck Colombia, good luck all fredom loving people of the world. you wanted it you gonna get it!

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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john_stark says on Aug 7, 2007, 18:03:

Man I love seeing Plan Locolombia go down the toilet. Enough of our tax money wasted. Nobody in Colombia wants to fight the FARC or the ELN - they all buy their way out of military service. Personally I'd like to see the narcos win once and for all.

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critter says on Aug 7, 2007, 18:09:

Unfortunately, Scotty is correct on all counts. It'll be interesting to say the least!

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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Simon says on Aug 7, 2007, 19:31:

Speaking of Pinochet's regime, did you guys know what they did to the opposition? They would throw them from helicopters into the Pacific, electrocute the male prisoners' testicles, and run starving rats through tubes into women's vaginas. Nope, we definitely don't want that shit in Colombia.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Dolfi says on Aug 8, 2007, 00:52:

I´m sure most colombians would apreciate a cuban doctor in their barrio giving them free medical treatment or a school where they can learn to read and write for free. As it happens in Venezuela.

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scotty says on Aug 8, 2007, 01:05:

oh yea two great places to live Cuba or venezuela. if they are so great why dont you just go live there and give us a first hand look at how great it is.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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robi666 (Trustee board) says on Aug 8, 2007, 05:23:

Now, drug liberalization and goodbye to plan Colombia would probably be good news for Colombia. Does Colombia have a drug problem? No way! Let all the fools in USA and Europe kill themselves and just grab their money. Probably no more Guerillas, no more Paracos...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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jarhead says on Aug 8, 2007, 06:34:

Hey Rubito, I moved back to Colombia after living abroad for 30 years, and the reason I moved back is because I am one of the very few in this country who has the balls to put his money where his mouth is, BTW where do you live???
me and people like me are the ones that really have the right to open our mouths and speak our minds, regardless of whether you or "cbbook6104", or people like you like what we say or not..we are the ones that are working hard every day providing jobs for the average, and the poor in this country, paying our para fiscales, so that some corrupt politician can take them, and put them in his pocket....yet we ask nothing in return.....just to be able to enjoy this beautiful country....

hey cbbook6104, where do you live????how many people do you employ here in Colombia????or maybe you live in a nice comfy house up in the U.S.....when was the last time you were in Venezuela????I go to Venezueal on bussines every 3 weeks, and it is true that some fucked up shit is happening there, we must admit that worse things are happening here in Colombia, how many mass graves have been found in Venezuela lately, how many kidnappings have taken place lately in Venezuela???, how may kidnappings take place daily here in Colombia?????

Chavez is a direct result of a Venezuelan ruling class that never gave a shit about it's poor, who BTW are the majority, just like here in Colombia...their ruling class, just like ours all live the good life in Miami, we, the ones that are here on the ground are left to deal with all the shit going on, FARC, ELN, Paracos, Traquetos, Lagartos etc....
The bottom line here is, nothing will change in this country until the average citizen rises up, and causes a radical change to take place, we cannot continue the way we are, if that means putting a character like chavez in power, then so be it, the situation will not be any worse than what we have now.....

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RussianFred says on Aug 8, 2007, 07:33:

Maybe those investments in Colombia will be heading south! Gringos will be the first to loss their investments.

Annual Drug Deaths: Tobacco: 395,000, Alcohol: 125,000, 'Legal' Drugs: 38,000, Illegal Drug Overdoses: 5,200, Marijuana: 0. Considering government subsidies of tobacco, just what is our government protecting us from in the drug war?--Ralph Nader

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Lowell says on Aug 8, 2007, 11:41:

No National pride is right. No one in my house knew who Colombia got its independence from.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 8, 2007, 11:54:

Lowell, you need to start having history pop-quizzes prior to your weekly distributions of plata. That'll send 'em back to the books!

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Lowell says on Aug 8, 2007, 15:38:

Nope their too hard headed and would probably cop an attitude.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Lowell says on Aug 8, 2007, 15:40:

Also it's their loss.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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snake says on Aug 8, 2007, 15:52:

patience has been running thin.

Accession Number : ADA463791

Title : Colombia and the United States - The Partnership: But What Is the Endgame

Descriptive Note : Monograph

Corporate Author : ARMY WAR COLL STRATEGIC STUDIES INST CARLISLE BARRACKS PA

Personal Author(s) : Frechette, Myles R.

Handle / proxy Url : http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA463791 Check NTIS Availability...

Report Date : FEB 2007

Pagination or Media Count : 47

Abstract : The United States and Colombia have cooperated to reduce narcotics smuggling for 30 years, with the U.S. Government's attitude toward Colombia being based on its partner's degree of counternarcotics cooperation. In the mid-1990s, members of the U.S. administration and Congress called Colombia a "failed state." In the late 1990s, as counternarcotics cooperation increased, Colombia was called Latin America's "oldest democracy." Today, Colombia is a U.S. ally, and the United States is strengthening democracy there as part of worldwide strategy. But after 30 years, there is no endgame. U.S. policy requires more creativity and greater focus. It needs clearly defined benchmarks and attainable mutual objectives. This monograph discusses how to give assistance realistically, with accountability, and better prospects for success.

Descriptors : *UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, *INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, *NARCOTICS, *DRUG SMUGGLING, *COLOMBIA, POLICIES, GOVERNMENT(FOREIGN), DEMOCRACY, DRUG INTERDICTION

Subject Categories : GOVERNMENT AND POLITICAL SCIENCE
SOCIOLOGY AND LAW

Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 10, 2007, 05:48:

"Wanna know what I think Colombia's No. 1 export will be in 10 years? MUSIC!"

And pigs will be flying, too. Colombia exporting $4 or $5 billion dollars worth of music is like saying China's number one export will be expensive, original, copyright protected (and enforced) software.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 10, 2007, 06:42:

But how are you going to get people to pay for recorded music?

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Miguel_Clavo says on Aug 10, 2007, 10:23:

Buy Lotto and Lottery tickets..same odds.,.....=)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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jarhead says on Aug 10, 2007, 11:32:

Hey Rubito you having an opinion, and not agreeing with what I, or other people have to say is fine, now calling me, or someone else ignorant, or any other derogatory name, now that is something altogether different...for your information my "friend", my business has nothing to do with "raw materials" or shit like that, I am in an altogether different line of work....for your information I love this country, I was born in this country (where were you born???), my whole family was born here, that does not mean I am blind to how fucked up a lot of things are here, but you would not see that, since you are probably the "typical young musician", again, you might not like what I post on this site, but, it's my educated point of view, it is an open forum, and I, like you have the right to do so....BTW the dollar is up over $2,000 today :):):):)

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jarhead says on Aug 10, 2007, 11:55:

Oh, and BTW, I am a tax paying(taxed to the hilt), voting Colombian citizen, who lives here FULL time, and whose family lives here FULL time, I did not have to buy my way into this country using an "investor visa".........I think this gives me a bit more right than you to express my views regarding MY country, be they positive or negative.........

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Simon says on Aug 10, 2007, 14:39:

Jarhead,

Por favor cuide su boca con somo se refiere a Colombia. Lo ultimo que necesitamos acá son Colombianos haciendo quedar mal al país. Saludes.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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jarhead says on Aug 10, 2007, 14:47:

Digame usted Simon porque tengo que cuidar mi boca, yo tengo opiniones igual que usted, o usted se preocupa de lo que puedan pensar de su pais los Americanos????panita, la verdad es la verdad, el sol no se puede tapar con un dedo, eso lo que hemos hecho por anos en este pais, pretender que no pasa nada, mientras que el pais esta vuelto mas mierda cada dia....hora de despertarnos, que importa lo que pueda pensar los "turistas?????

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Simon says on Aug 10, 2007, 14:51:

Yo me preocupo por lo que piensa de mi país TODO EL MUNDO porque AMO a mi país. Si vamos a hablar de lo que está mal, bienvenido sea, pero hagámoslo entre NOSOTROS y en NUESTRO IDIOMA! Para eso tenemos un foto en español aquí.

Pero esos Colombianos que andan hablando mal del país a los extranjeros no son nada más que unos HP's porque embarran más la imagen de Colombia!

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Simon says on Aug 10, 2007, 14:53:

Quise decir un 'foro' en español.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Sr Tertius says on Aug 10, 2007, 14:58:

Not that I'm involved in this piss contenst, but, whoa, jarhead, I mean... I thought I sounded like an ass...

If I had to choose, I'd rather take the "typical young musician" over the insecure chauvinist dick.

What's that? Where I'm from? Where was I born? I didn't know the value of your statements depended on the documents in your wallet. I have the documents anyway, but seems to me that flaunting arrogant nationalisms is nothing but the last refuge of some scoundrels.

As for the original post... does any one take anything Montaner says seriously anymore? Not that he is necessarily wrong in every single point, but there are more reasonable ways of stating an argument. Alejandro Gaviria discusses one particular point and shows data that, in fact, is consistent with some of Montaner's opinion. The difference is that Gaviria's is valuable data, Montaner's is worthless opinion. The link is here:

http://agaviria.blogspot.com/2007/08/colombia-el-prximo-cataclismo.htm...

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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robi666 (Trustee board) says on Aug 10, 2007, 15:36:

Tertius, I'd like to have a look at the methodology and population for that data or read a full report. Do you have any link?
I have some problems:
What it means "felicidad"? Did they ask "are you happy"? Or what?
Did they really ask to a 60 years old woman in Estrato 1 if she agrees to "economia de mercado"?
Anyway, thanks for the link and you always put some good point on the table.

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jarhead says on Aug 10, 2007, 17:01:

Rubito, trust me, I would say that shit to your face any day of the week, I will PM you my shop's address, you come down, and I will say that shit to your face all day long, do not even try to go that route senor, because you have no fucking clue of what you are getting yourself into....

now back to the thread....if you think that me wanting a dictatorship in MY own country if fucked up, I respect that, but hey, that's just my opinion, like I said before, and say again, it will not be worse than what we have now,,,,,, and yes, you are right, I and my family would probably be one of the first hauled off.....but you know what, it would be worth it, if it helped to make this a better country......you see sir, that is what people like me are prepared to do for this country, not high tail it out of here when the shit gets rough.....I also made the same sacrifice when I lived in the U.S., at 17 I joined the Marine Corps because I thought I had to do my part for my adopted country, so instead of going to college, and partying for 4 years, I joined the service, and went off to Lebannon straight our of bootcamp.....but then again you would not have agreed with that course of action either.......you probably went off to music school, nothing wrong with that, again, just a different way of seeing things, like now with this little disscussion we are having....

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billyb says on Aug 10, 2007, 18:36:

Where's the love??

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jarhead says on Aug 11, 2007, 07:02:

I have already been to Saudi Arabia, I worked for Aramco for a year when I got out of the service....actually not a bad place to live..........if you an arab......no, I like it here just fine...and BTW, I don't even think you know what snipping is........anyway RUBITO, enough of this bullshit, I have to get back to work.....I work for a living......take care, and good luck to you sir..........

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Stretch says on Aug 11, 2007, 10:21:

Montaner should try reading the bills pending in Congress before he writes. Neither the House nor the Senate version of the FY2008 foreign operations bill eliminates funding for Colombia. The House would reduce the overall amount and shift priorities significantly toward social aid. The Senate bill would imply less of a shift in the overall balance. Members of Congress on both sides of the aisle are justifiably concerned about the depth of paramilitary penetration of local and regional governments and the security forces; a mafia state is a security nightmare. Both bills would impose conditions on the aid that have to do with human rights and the paramilitaries. For real information on the what's going on with the aid in Washington, look at www.ciponline.org. For real information on the paramilitaries, the corruption of the security forces, or the challenges to making Colombian democracy more transparent and responsive, pick up El Tiempo, Semana, Cambio or Nuevo Siglo any day of the week.

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Sr Tertius says on Aug 11, 2007, 10:36:

Robi,

The study apparently is still in press, but you can look it up as the Encuesta Social y Politica de la Universidad de los Andes. I know there are standard ways of assessing "happinness" (life satisfaction, or whatever) in consumer research; my guess is that they applied the same standards. You other methodological concerns are very valid. This is the kind of stuff where you need to verify first what people understand by various words before incorporating them into questions. My guess, for instance, is that "capitalismo" has very negative connotations in lower strata, but rewording it as "economia de mercado" may not elicit such negative responses. Tricky stuff, indeed. But I'll take that any time over the BS that people like Montaner spouts constantly.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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robi666 (Trustee board) says on Aug 11, 2007, 10:47:

Thanks, Sr!
As you said, tricky stuff.

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Man Tequila says on Aug 11, 2007, 23:32:

Well, no need to get snippy about it. ;)

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Robert Jorge says on Aug 12, 2007, 00:09:

Rubi vs. Jarhead ... I got 20 mil cop on Rubi.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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Robert Jorge says on Aug 12, 2007, 00:34:

Jarhead, I am not looking for a fight. But seriously, "ignorant" is not an insult or a putdown. At least in most contexts. For example, "Forgive my ignorance, but I didn't realize you owned a factory." "She was ignorant of the fact Shakira was a Colombian artist." "He was ignorant that the word 'ignorant' didn't mean the same thing as the word 'stupid'." Anyway, I just wanted to point that out Jarhead - that somebody using the word ignorant towards you is not necessarily insulting.

And to Jarhead and Rubi .... tranquilo amigos. I was just joking about the bet ... jajajaja. Even if you disagree and things get heated - put things in perspective. This is just a site where, no matter what, we all love Colombia in our own way. Peace.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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critter says on Aug 12, 2007, 00:54:

Ignorance= IGNORing the facts or information readily available

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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goin_south says on Aug 12, 2007, 02:30:

yeah, Rob, but....I'm going to go have breakfast at THE WAFFLE HOUSE... IN HONOR OF RUBITO.

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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jinksmiester says on Aug 12, 2007, 13:03:

I Agree with rubito...while colombia has its problems the people ive met and talk to, tell its much better than it was 20 years ago.Loss of freedom is a hell of price to pay...Id be in the hills with rubito.I think colombia is on an upward climb that will hopefully continue and bring better things for every citizen in colombia. As far as the u.s. pulling out ...well they don,t owe colombia anything,but i also don,t think thats the correct thing either.I think they need to stay committed and things will continue to improve in colombia.But then again it might not be a bad thing if colombia had to stand on its two feet and address its problems.Question is can they and will they.

A man is not old until regret takes the place of dreams

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miamimike says on Aug 18, 2007, 07:24:

"Chavez is a direct result of a Venezuelan ruling class that never gave a shit about it's poor, who BTW are the majority, just like here in Colombia...their ruling class, just like ours all live the good life in Miami, we, the ones that are here on the ground are left to deal with all the shit going on, FARC, ELN, Paracos, Traquetos, Lagartos etc....
The bottom line here is, nothing will change in this country until the average citizen rises up, and causes a radical change to take place, we cannot continue the way we are, if that means putting a character like chavez in power, then so be it, the situation will not be any worse than what we have now".....

Jarhead-Spot On! Chavez (like castro in Cuba) is in power now for the shortcomings of the past and some of the present Wealthy class who ignored the poor. They Paved the road for these guys, Chavez and Castro,,,,Now those wealthy Venezuelans are living in luxury in Key Biscayne(miami) florida....In Cuba's case, those who fled to Miami gave Cuba to Fidel and it appears a similiar Venezuelan group is giving Venezuela to Chavez, whose fault is that???

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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