Uribe's government plans to get on the AUC payroll

Miguel says on Oct 25, 2005, 10:35:

Platano Like you, this story caught my attention, but outside of the article in EL TIEMPO, I have yet to be able to find any mention of it in the Colombian press; I checked EL PAIS, EL HERALDO, and Caracol, and there is no single mention of it that I can find, as of 12:30pm Central Daylight Time.

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juancegomez says on Oct 25, 2005, 11:06:

Shame on the lack of representation of the real text Obviously the EL TIEMPO story is enough to "catch the attention" of anybody, on its own merits. But by that I mean the *complete story* in its exact details, not what was posted here.

platano, I'm sorry to say, doesn't even try to accurately represent the exact content and facts included in the article itself.

Heck, his interpretation (so to speak) of the article, which takes several huge and questionable liberties, makes up the entire post (no, a small, out of context quote that people without enough Spanish knowledge won't get isn't exactly proper representation of the entire text).

If it came to that, I could make a rebuttal of each of platano's assumptions, because that's what they are. I could also translate, word by word, what that article says. But that's not really necessary and frankly I'm out of time. Maybe I'll do that later.

Right now, the article speaks for itself, for those that know enough Spanish or, if it comes to that, can use a Babelfish translation (which would actually be truer to it than what was posted above).

Here's the entire text for those that actually want to read what it says for themselves.

----------------

Octubre 24 de 2005
Estalla crisis en el DAS por acusaciones sobre oficina de inteligencia al servicio de los 'paras'

Personas cercanas al director de la entidad, Jorge Noguera, aseguran que se trata de un montaje tejido por el subdirector, José Miguel Narváez.

Desde el pasado viernes, altos funcionarios del DAS se han reunido de manera extraordinaria y discreta con el presidente Álvaro Uribe; el vicepresidente Francisco Santos y el ministro de Defensa, Camilo Ospina.

Incluso, Jorge Noguera, director del organismo de seguridad, viajó hace cuatro días de manera urgente a San Andrés para sostener una charla privada con Uribe, la cual se extendió a tal punto, que terminó el pasado sábado tras un consejo comunal en Fusagasugá.

Y aunque Palacio ha mantenido bajo total hermetismo el tema que están tocando, EL TIEMPO estableció que se trata de una nueva crisis en el DAS, que esta vez podría culminar con la salida de al menos uno de los hombres fuertes de la actual cúpula de esa institución.

La crisis estalló hace menos de una semana cuando un detective de la institución grabó en secreto a uno de sus compañeros del Grupo Especial de Inteligencia.

En la conversación, este le contaba que el director de ese departamento, Enrique Ariza, planeaba crear una especie de oficina para venderles sus servicios al paramilitarismo.

“Me habló de un supuesto proyecto que tendrían él y el doctor Enrique Ariza para crear una oficina de inteligencia privada al servicio de las autodefensas, financiada por ellas. Ese grupo adelantaría, a nivel nacional, labores de inteligencia técnica, entre otras actividades”, dijo el detective bajo juramento.

Esta declaración dio pie para que se abriera de manera inmediata una investigación interna con miras a establecer qué está pasando en el interior del cuerpo de inteligencia más cercano al Presidente, que en los últimos meses se ha visto salpicado por otros episodios de similar talante.

¿Complot?

Y aunque inicialmente se pensó que no pasaría de ser un posible episodio de corrupción aislado, el caso terminó convirtiéndose en una especie de pulso de poderes entre Noguera y su segundo, José Miguel Narváez, ambos funcionarios nombrados directamente por el Presidente Uribe.

La razón: el detective que entregó la grabación asegura que personal de la oficina de Narváez le encomendó la misión de recoger pruebas en contra del Grupo Especial de Inteligencia y específicamente contra su cabeza: Enrique Ariza.

Incluso, asegura que le entregaron el aparato para grabar la conversación.

“Estaban como tratando de hacer un complot, ya que simplemente estaban interesados en sacar al doctor Enrique Ariza”, dice ahora el detective, a quién supuestamente le habían prometido trasladarlo a Manizales después de entregar la cinta.

Y el hombre que fue grabado haciendo la propuesta, si bien reconoce que habló con Ariza para crear en el futuro una oficina de inteligencia particular, niega que esta fuera a estar al servicio de los ‘paras’.

Dentro del mismo caso, ayer un ex funcionario del DAS denunció ante la Fiscalía que estaba recibiendo presiones por parte de la subdirección de la institución para que ayudara con información contra la oficina de Inteligencia, a cambio de restituirlo en el cargo.

El pulso

En criterio de personas cercanas a Noguera, de lo que se trata es de una especie de campaña de desprestigio, orquestada por personal de la subdirección, para debilitar al actual director y propiciar su salida.

De otra manera no se explican por qué la dirección del DAS fue la última en enterarse de lo que estaba sucediendo y por qué el hombre que grabó la conversación habla ahora de un complot.
Pero gente cercana a Narváez asegura que se trata de una denuncia con fundamentos, que amerita ser investigada por los organismos de control.

Incluso, se sabe que el subdirector ya expuso el caso de manera verbal ante la Fiscalía General y ante varios funcionarios del alto gobierno.

También se sabe que actualmente, la Casa de Nariño valora ambas versiones, así como algunas pruebas que las partes le han hecho llegar para argumentar su posición.

Por ahora, ni Jorge Noguera ni José Miguel Narváez quieren hablar del tema ante los medios de comunicación, alegando la reserva.
No obstante, personas cercanas a Narváez hicieron saber anoche que él cree que el caso nada tiene que ver con su jefe Noguera, “a quien considera un hombre intachable”, puntualizaron.

Por su parte, un alto funcionario de Palacio dijo que habría un pronunciamiento oficial a este respecto, pero al cierre de esta edición, aún no se había producido.

u.investigativa at eltiempo.com.co

Noguera, ¿inamovible?

El abogado samario asumió la dirección del DAS desde el comienzo del gobierno Uribe.

Durante la campaña a la Presidencial del actual jefe de Estado, Noguera fue su jefe de debate en el departamento del Magdalena.

Antes había ocupado la gerencia de Puertos de Colombia en Liquidación y se había desempeñado como asesor jurídico de la Alcaldía de Santa Marta y la Gobernación del Magdalena.

Noguera es considerado uno de los hombres de confianza de Uribe, por eso, dicen, se ha mantenido en el cargo a pesar de los escándalos de sus funcionarios y de las peleas con los militares.

¿Quién es Narváez?

A principios del gobierno Uribe, el industrial Pedro Juan Moreno –entonces amigo del mandatario–, pensó en él como candidato para manejar la inteligencia unificada del país. Pero la propuesta de Moreno no prosperó. Luego, Narváez –politólogo y experto en seguridad– fue asesor del Ministerio de Defensa y como tal participaba en los Consejos de Seguridad. Durante la gestión de Jorge Uribe, salió de esa cartera y entró al DAS. Estando allí, lo acusaron de hacer lobby para hundir iniciativas de esa cartera, relacionadas con gastos reservados e inteligencia. Narváez negó los señalamientos.

Otros escándalos en el DAS

En los últimos meses, altos funcionarios del DAS han protagonizado espinosos episodios que hoy son materia de investigaciones penales.

En febrero pasado, EL TIEMPO denunció que desde la oficina de informática de la entidad estaban borrando órdenes de extradición de narcos y jefes paramilitares.

Así mismo, que se estaban alterando los ingresos y salidas de varias personas con antecedentes judiciales.

En ese entonces, Jorge Noguera manifestó que ya había destituido al jefe de ese despacho, Rafael García Torres, y que lo había puesto a órdenes de la justicia penal.

García –hombre cercano a Noguera– acusa ahora al director del DAS de supuestos contactos con paramilitares y de deberle 10 millones de pesos.

Y en julio de este año, el director seccional del Atlántico, Emilio Vence, fue destituido y acusado de haber montado tres supuestos atentados contra el presidente Uribe.

Según el propio DAS, personas inocentes terminaron tras las rejas acusadas de los supuestos actos terroristas.

Meses antes ya habían sido destituidos varios funcionarios de extranjería por filtrar a terceros de manera irregular información relacionada con los movimientos migratorios del entonces ministro de Defensa, Jorge Uribe.

http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/judi/2005-10-25/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-2581518.html

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platano says on Oct 25, 2005, 11:28:

I, too, could translate paragraph by paragraph.... But I don't have the time now either. All I can say is:

Cuando el rio suena, es por que piedras trae.

Where there is smoke there is fire.

I am awaiting the series of resignations, firings, and statements of indignation from Uribe... and all I hear is silence from Palacio.

Plátano X
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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platano says on Oct 25, 2005, 14:42:

I like Uribe, too. That is why his "alcahueteria" hurts... And plans for subcontracting Colombian government services out to AUC on a national level should be severely condemned, and people should lose their jobs for even contemplating it, yet Uribe's silence is indicative of his complicity. Though he may be planning to do what Bush did: authorize torture, then when it is discovered, speak loudly about how torture is to be condemned and never condoned while really wanting it to continue.

Plátano X
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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juancegomez says on Oct 25, 2005, 16:38:

... For those who might be actually interested in what's factually going on and not in engaging in ever longer leaps of logic from the teneous bases of prejudice...that is, unlike platano here is unfortunately doing.

And as long as we're quoting Spanish words of wisdom: No hay que ensillar antes de traer las bestias. But I suppose platano's quite happy to keep doing so.

Neverminding the factual misrepresentations of the original text that still persist in the opening post about the entire premise itself (again, I invite people to read the entire articles directly, instead of taking my word or platano's for it, though I myself have kept comparatively quiet on that front, just due to a temporary lack of time).

Octubre 25 de 2005
El presidente Álvaro Uribe aceptó la renuncia del director del DAS, Jorge Noguera

Al mando del oganismo de investigación del Gobierno fue encargado el actual viceministro de Defensa, Andrés Peñate.

El subdirector del organismo, José Miguel Narváez, fue declarado insubsistente por el Presidente.

Noguera entregó su carta de renuncia esta tarde en la Casa de Nariño. Inmediatamente fue aceptada por el mandatario.

El director renunció tras las revelaciones de este diario sobre la infirltración de paramiliares en el organismo.

Tras las revelaciones, la cúpula del Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad (DAS) se reunió la mañana de este martes de urgencia para analizar el tema.

"El presidente decidió aceptarle la renuncia al director del DAS y declarar insubsistente al subdirector", informó Ricardo Galán, portavoz presidencial.

El caso se hizo público en medio de una férrea controversia interna entre el director de la entidad y el subdirector, que fue dirimida esta tarde por el propio presidente Uribe.

La denuncia está basada en una conversación que un agente del DAS grabó en secreto con un colega del Grupo Especial de Inteligencia, en la que se cuentan planes del director de esa división, Enrique Ariza, para crear una oficina que vendiese información a los grupos de ultraderecha.

"Me habló de un supuesto proyecto que tendrían él y el doctor Enrique Ariza para crear una oficina de inteligencia privada al servicio de las autodefensas (paramilitares), financiada por ellas", denunció el detective, cuya identidad no fue revelada.

La información recolectada por esta oficina iba a ser entregada a las paramilitares Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia (AUC), que desde 2003 lleva a cabo un polémico proceso de paz con el gobierno de Uribe para desmovilizarse.

En el marco de ese proceso cerca de 10.800 miembros de los escuadrones derechistas han dejado las armas.

La denuncia generó una crisis interna en el DAS, pues allegados al director del servicio secreto acusaron al subdirector Narváez de estar detrás de "un montaje" para enlodar y presionar la salida de su jefe.

El DAS, que cumple además funciones de control de migración y en algunos casos de policía judicial y es el cuerpo de inteligencia más cercano al presidente, y ha sido blanco de numerosas denuncias en los últimos meses por posibles vínculos de sus funcionarios con los escuadrones derechistas.

Con AFP.

http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/judi/2005-10-25/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-2582278.html

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platano says on Oct 25, 2005, 17:13:

juancegomez, I just checked the El Tiempo website for the link You provided the link and the date but you did not provide the time: 5:05 p.m., after I posted . I am happy Mr. Uribe has accepted the resignations. Things can go back to normal now... which is still a favorable situation for AUC, they just won't be receiving government services in an official capacity. They got caught, they backed off, the staus quo is restored.

Plátano X
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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juancegomez says on Oct 25, 2005, 17:18:

The bit about the lack of the exact time is correct. It's obviously a later development, or else I would have posted it when you originally made this forum topic. No reason not to do so.

I've developed a bit of a habit of cleaning up the extra time strings and advertisements or formatting tidbits in news stories, not just this one, as a matter of style and presentation. You can check the forum for evidence of that. The content itself is still there unedited, regardless.

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ColomBuenazo says on Oct 25, 2005, 19:51:

PLATANO'S CORRECT STAND ON URIBE! Comments by JCG just remind me of Fox's News "Fair and Balanced" policy. JCG's comments, just like Fox's, have become the unofficial spokespeople of the conservative right irrespective of the country. Any slight, OBJECTIVE and well-founded criticism directed at URIBE is SPINNED and played down into political chatter. JCG's swift and quick reaction to any LEGITIMATE dissent from Uribe's policies, evidences the deeply entrenched and totally biased psyche that a large number of Colombians ultimately suffer from and spit out.
In a rush to become the status quo preserver and Uribe defender, JC's comments have become totally "UNFAIRED AND IMBALANCED", and further detrimental.

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juancegomez says on Oct 26, 2005, 05:32:

Try again, ColomBuenazo Pardon me, but you definitely don't have much patience for proper reading comprehension, do you, ColomBuenazo?

Not only is comparing what I wrote to Fox News an ad hominem without any base (I challenge you to prove it if you will, though I doubt you can even attempt to do so), but you are demonstrating that you can't even comprehend what I typed correctly, much less what the EL TIEMPO articles contain. Which is the main point of everything I wrote, not any so-called political chatter, which I have not engaged in at this time.

In fact, the only ones who are as of yet engaging in political chatter beyond the facts presented in the case are yourself and platano, in different ways.

Specifically, it's you, ColomBuanzo, who is taking my call for a direct and complete reading of the information available as a "negation of legitimate dissent". But curiously, the only one which is blasting anyone's right to "dissent" is yourself, by immediately assigning me half a dozen "crimes" without any basis.

I'll say it again: I have no problems at all with people criticizing Uribe or the government, to a greater or lesser degree, because I've done so myself many times here (but apparently ColomBuenazo is oblivious to this). I'm not denying anyone's right to dissent, by a long shot. It's stupid to paint me as a defender of Uribe and his policies when I have even posted material directly contradicting them here in the forum.

But there is difference between what you call "any legitimate dissident", and what has happened here. When platano's opening message directly omitts, mixes up and almost contradicts things present in the EL TIEMPO articles themselves, the first reasonable reaction is to call for a detailed reading of the original information that was published.

That's not a matter of political bias on my part, it's a matter of being comprehensive, serious and sticking to the facts about the situation. In fact, I'm going to address all this in a later post, probably once I have the time to translate at least one of the articles to English, as I mentioned pretty much from the start. I've been completely willing to discuss the issues and will do so.

In your zeal to paint me as a "Fox News" kind of person just for that, you're apparently actually painting your own mirror image, ColomBuenazo.

If I were a "Fox News" spokesman, I'd be calling you all "Communists, Terrorists and Traitors to Freedom", or some similar BS. But I've never gone as far as doing that and never will, because I don't like Fox News, but just as well, I don't have to like its leftwing counterparts. Reality's complexity isn't something that can be properly addressed from such simple minded ideological perspectives as those on the extreme right and the extreme left, there are too many intermediate aspects.

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juancegomez says on Oct 26, 2005, 06:03:

Finally an English language piece about the matter shows up, though as usual it's not too detailed.

But note the following:

"Colombian daily El Tiempo reported Tuesday that Narvaez was involved in a plan to make it look like the DAS was going to sell intelligence to the nation's outlawed far-right paramilitary militias as part of a campaign to ensnare Noguera in a scandal."

That is a shortened version of a core question being directly addressed at length in the EL TIEMPO articles: infighting and conflicts within the DAS between Noguera and his subordinates.

But from platano's opening comments you wouldn't even know that such a situation even existed or was even being reported, let alone being investigated.

In fact, the government began to deal with an *internal crisis* inside the DAS at least a week ago, as a result of the *inside* revelation of the tape to authorities (NOT when it was leaked to the press), even BEFORE any EL TIEMPO article was even written (the article itself makes that quite clear).

But platano somehow manages to mix up the investigation and its discussion (which did involve president Uribe, the vicepresident and the minister of the Defense, according to EL TIEMPO), with the supposed plot itself (which involved the DAS director, deputy director and further infighting), something that runs contrary to the EL TIEMPO article.

----

Colombia's Secret Police Chief Resigns

By KIM HOUSEGO, Associated Press Writer Tue Oct 25,10:37 PM ET

BOGOTA, Colombia - President Alvaro Uribe on Tuesday accepted the resignation of Colombia's secret police chief and fired the agency's No. 2 amid reports of bitter infighting between the two.

Jorge Noguera, director of the secret police known as the DAS, told reporters that Uribe "was very angry about this situation and after speaking with him, I presented my resignation."

An Uribe spokesman, who only speaks to reporters on condition of anonymity as a policy, confirmed the president had accepted Noguera's resignation and dismissed the DAS's deputy director, Jose Miguel Narvaez, but declined to discuss the reasons behind the decision.

Colombian daily El Tiempo reported Tuesday that Narvaez was involved in a plan to make it look like the DAS was going to sell intelligence to the nation's outlawed far-right paramilitary militias as part of a campaign to ensnare Noguera in a scandal.

Uribe "is aware ... of these montages that were being prepared within the institution," Noguera said.

Narvaez could not be reached for comment.

The DAS has been hit by a string of other scandals recently, including alleged misappropriation of funds and accusations that a regional DAS chief in northwest Colombia had fabricated a plot to assassinate Uribe in order to take credit for foiling the attack.

Colombia is embroiled in a drug-fueled civil war that pits two leftist rebel armies against the paramilitary factions and government forces, killing more than 3,000 people every year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_secret_police_1

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juancegomez says on Oct 26, 2005, 06:22:

Part one of the original EL TIEMPO article in English Here's part of the first draft (it's not perfect, obviously) of my ongoing translation of the first paragraphs of the original EL TIEMPO story. I'll post the rest later:

------------

A crisis goes off within the DAS due to accusations about an intelligence office at the service of the 'paras'

People close to the director of the entity, Jorge Noguera, have assured that it is a setup woven by the deputy director, José Miguel Narváez.

Since the past Friday, high officials of the DAS have met in an extraordinary and discrete manner with president Alvaro Uribe; vicepresident Francisco Santos and the minister of Defense, Camilo Ospina.

Even Jorge Noguera, director of the intelligence organism, urgently travelled to San Andrés to hold a private chat with Uribe four days ago, which extended itself to the point that it ended Saturday after a community council in Fusagasugá.

And even though the Palacio [de Nariño] has kept the matter being discussed under complete silence, EL TIEMPO has established that it has to do with a new crisis going on inside the DAS, which could lead to the exit of at least one of the strongmen of the current direction of that institution.

The crisis went off less than a week ago when a detective of the institution secretly taped one of this partners in the Special Intelligence Group.

In the conversation, the detective was saying that the director of that department, Enrique Ariza, was planning to create a sort of office to sell its services to paramilitarism.

"He spoke to me of a supposed project of his and of Mr. Enrique Ariza to create a private intelligence office at the service of the self-defense forces, financed by them. This group would advance, at the national level, technical intelligence work, among other activities", the detective said under oath.

This declaration led to the immediate opening of an internal investigation with the aim of establishing what is going on inside the intelligence organism closest to the president, an organism which in the last months has been stained by other episodes of similar character.

A Plot?

And even though it was initially thought that it wouldn't go beyond an isolated case of corruption, the case ended up becoming a sort of pulse between Noguera and his second-in-command, Jorge Miguel Narváez, both of them officials directly assigned to their posts by president Uribe.

The reason: the detective that submitted the tape has said that personnel from Narváez's office gave him the mission of compiling evidence against the Special Intelligence Group and specifically against its head: Enrique Ariza.

In fact, he said that he was given the device [the recorder] in order to tape the conversation.

"They were trying to make something like a plot, because they were simply interested in getting rid of Mr. Enrique Ariza", the detective says now, who supposedly had been promised a transfer to Manizales after submitting the tape.

And the man that was recorded making the proposal, while he accepts that he talked to Ariza in order to create a future private intelligence office, denies that it was going to be in the service of the "paras".

Within the same case, yesterday a former DAS official denounced before the Fiscalía that he was receiving pressure from the deputy direction of the institution in order for him to help provide information against the intelligence office, with the promise of being reincorporated to his former post.

--------------------

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ColomBuenazo says on Oct 26, 2005, 07:31:

GROUND RULES VIOLATIONS / FOX'S RIGHT AGENDA Even up to now, I have refused to violate this site's ground rules; that is to say, I don't engage myself in direct and personal attacks aimed at any of my fellow bloggers. What I do is, I take issue with COMMENTS and CONTENT of some ideas expressed in this forum, but never do I get personal here.
Comments like "Pardon me, but you definitely don't have much patience for proper reading comprehension, do you, ColomBuenazo? " or "you can't even comprehend what I typed correctly, much less what the EL TIEMPO articles contain", or "In fact, the only ones who are as of yet engaging in political chatter beyond the facts presented in the case are yourself and platano, in different ways", only evidences one's inability to react to issues in a more rational manner, with a more sophisticated language directed at ideas but never to people.
Having said that, it's news to me that Fox's network is "Anti-Communist, Anti-Terrorist and against Traitors to Freedom.", but it seems that that been established in this discussion. I DO KNOW HOWEVER that they always STOMP to protect and preserve the ESTABLISHMENT from any independent, freethinking criticism directed at the Conservative Right; that is simply a journalistic FACT.

Finally, independent, avant-garde, anti-status quo thinkers have always been outcasted in society, but their well-reasoned and rational ideas always end-up catching up and becoming mainstream in the long run.

Although I wish I had WAY MORE time at hand to write more extended pieces but I really need to get back to work.

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juancegomez says on Oct 26, 2005, 10:45:

Not exactly addressing the points at hand... "Even up to now, I have refused to violate this site's ground rules; that is to say, I don't engage myself in direct and personal attacks aimed at any of my fellow bloggers"

Unfortunately, your first comment here in this thread was clearly an attack on me, if an indirect one, and not a response to the content of my post. It was an attack, and with no reasonable provocation behind it.

Hence the least I could do, even if not in the best possible manner, was to answer by questioning your ability to understand the situation, without using the insulting and ad hominem categories that you applied to me, but definitely making clear my rejection of your position.

"Comments...[which] only evidences one's inability to react to issues in a more rational manner, with a more sophisticated language directed at ideas but never to people."

Unfortunately, however, you failed to do just that and continue to do so. You should look at yourself in the mirror. Your own way of addressing the situation continues to show that you have no intention of "reacting to issues in a more rational manner, with a more sophisticated language directed at dieas but never to people".

"Having said that, it's news to me that Fox's network is "Anti-Communist, Anti-Terrorist and against Traitors to Freedom.", but it seems that that been established in this discussion."

It may or may not be news to you, but that's the impression that Fox News and its spokesmen have transmitted on many issues, from its internal perspective of those categories that is.

"I DO KNOW HOWEVER that they always STOMP to protect and preserve the ESTABLISHMENT from any independent, freethinking criticism directed at the Conservative Right; that is simply a journalistic FACT."

Even though I sort of agree here, that doesn't deny what I mentioned before. The point is that they sometimes do so by using the words and the methods I mentioned.

Unfortunately, you are doing the same thing, stomping to protect and preserve your position from the content of criticism I put forward, not even addressing the substance of what I mentioned at all, but just accusing me of being "pro-establishment" in between the lines.

In other words, it appears that your belief is that any criticism against the establishment is warranted in itself, no matter how much it strays from the reality of the facts, just because it's better to be anti-establishment for the sake of being anti-establishment.

I say: it's not a matter of simply being anti-establishment or pro-establishment. It's a matter of staying true to the complex reality of the facts, whether they may or may not benefit the establishment or rather the new and improved "anti-establishment" establishment (which is just a poisonous to independent thinking and free discussion).

"Finally, independent, avant-garde, anti-status quo thinkers have always been outcasted in society, but their well-reasoned and rational ideas always end-up catching up and becoming mainstream in the long run."

That's your own conclusion and your perspective of the situation, but I believe it's hardly applicable here.

In fact, that's not always going to be the case, especially when it's the thinker himself or herself which is pretending to make the assessment of what's "avant-garde" or not. I have no such ambitions and don't pretend to know what will become part of the mainstream or not, that's far too unpredictable.

"Although I wish I had WAY MORE time at hand to write more extended pieces but I really need to get back to work."

Hopefully, when you get back and have the time, you do address the content of the points I raised and the rest of the issues at hand.

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vladimiro says on Oct 26, 2005, 15:18:

FOX NEWS is part of Rupert Murdoch's media empire:

When CNN reporter Christian Amanpour blamed Fox for creating "a climate of fear and self-censorship" regarding coverage of Iraq, a Fox spokeswoman shot back, "Given the choice, it's better to be viewed as a foot soldier for Bush than a spokeswoman for al-Qaeda."

Said Murdoch of the war, "The greatest thing to come out of this for the world economy, if you could put it that way, would be $20 a barrel for oil. That's bigger than any tax cut in any country."

Columbia Journalism Review: 'Murdoch uses his diverse holdings . . . to promote his own financial interests at the expense of real news gathering, legal and regulatory rules, and journalistic ethics. He wields his media as instruments of influence with politicians who can aid him, and savages his competitors in his news columns. If ever someone demonstrated the dangers of mass power being concentrated in few hands, it would be Murdoch.'"

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/murdoch/murdoch.php

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vladimiro says on Oct 26, 2005, 20:10:

That's true, you just get sound bites on TV.

I've only watched it a couple times, but was reading how FOX NEWS relentlessly attacks the NY Times to the extent that it was damaging thier business and they had to hire more patriotic journalists, like Judith Miller( its looking like she got her WMD stories directly from Cheney.)

Apparrently, "if you lexis Fox News transcripts and the NYT in the period between September 11 and the Iraq War, you find a constant stream of attacks. Brit Hume even waxed wrathful that the Times urged Tiger Woods not to play golf on a course at a club that excluded women...

The big attack on the Times was in summer of 2002, when it was accused of paying no attention to Ahmad Chalabi and others who were alleging Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs. It was even blamed for for Bush Senior National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft not liking the idea of an Iraq War (Fox News Sunday, Aug. 25, 2002)" www.juancole.com

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Hunter says on Oct 27, 2005, 11:23:

I just use TV news to visualise what I read elsewhere and sometimes to direct my attention to a topic that I have missed in my reading, then read about it elsewhere for real information.

Hunter

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Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 27, 2005, 18:53:

A suggestion Platano, may I make a suggestion?

Perhaps it might be more constructive and conducive to a sincere dialog of you were to title your threads with less loaded and, for lack of a better term, biased headlines? For example, you could have posted this as "El Tiempo article alleges secret cooperation with AUC" or something like that. Instead, you've found the Uribe administration guilty and assumed all allegations as true before we've even read past the title.

Just a thought.

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pepster says on Oct 28, 2005, 09:00:

GringoDeLouis I believe this is something that has been going on for a long time.

Back in the 80's when I was in Junior High and was becoming more intellectually aware of the world around me, I was spending alot of time in Colombia. My cousins were very defensive about Colombia. They'd give me the same riot act...who is the leading importer of Roses and flowers to America, Best Coffee, Emeralds, largest deposits of Coal and unexplored oil, best tasting cattle, most diverse terrain, blah blah blah.

I appreciated it, but then I'd get annoyed by the US bashing, NYC is dirty, kids talk back to their mother, our kids know geography and you don't know your capitals, you spit, you belch...blah blah blah.

I always came back with this...then why are so many of you coming to Miami and NYC?

Then the zinger, maybe you should worry less at what you think you're the leader at and more at what you're worse at...and maybe just maybe, your leadership in so many things would be truly appreciated.

With time I understood that this type of pride is necessary. You need something to keep you going.


The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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cali373 says on Oct 28, 2005, 12:03:

I think we have exhausted Uribe's ties to drug traffikers enough and without and breaking news it is boring. But since we are on the subject. He was elected mayor of Medellín At the age of 26 , the second-largest city of Colombia. There is now way that you were elected to Mayor without any collusion with the powerful Cartel. Remember "plata o Plomo". Was removed from office after only three months because of his ties to the Cartel. Director of Civil Aviation: Pilots’ licenses were issued to Pablo Escobar’s fleet of light aircraft. 1995 Governor of the Antioquia: Legal paramilitary forces called Convivir’s were formed and designed to the civilian population alongside the Armed Forces. They launched a campaign of terror in Antioquia. Thousands of people (as well as young teenagers)were murdered or disappeared.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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juancegomez says on Oct 30, 2005, 19:31:

.... I think we have also exhausted the ways of addressing each of the points you mentioned about what you consider to be Uribe's past in a much more detailed manner elsewhere in the forum too. Suffice to say that the search engine still points to older discussions on the same subject.

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discusted says on Oct 31, 2005, 08:22:

uribe Oh Lawd,all you have to do is rearch and you will find out all the Uribe ties to Pablo Escoabar.Why does this latest stuff surprise you?
If Uribe gets in another term,there might be an even bigger war.40 years of war and it will not let up.Corruption and greed abound,while the little man suffer.

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juancegomez says on Oct 31, 2005, 10:03:

... Don't really agree on the "there might be an even bigger war", personally, since it seems to imply that the war is necessarily going to get worse and "bigger", and that it would be otherwise with a different president. Which doesn't seem to be the case at all, even if Ingrid Betancourt suddenly was freed and elected.

Until a lot of things that go beyond a single president's term(s) change, it's rather more likely that the war is going to continue for an unknown amount of time, no matter who is elected. Demonizing Uribe isn't any better than making him into a Messiah, IMHO it's just as bad.

As for corruption and greed and the little man, generally speaking that's correct, but I suspect that the practical application of that formula might be found lacking in this particular context.

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