Uribe wants to violate separation of Chuch and State

juancegomez says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:53:

........ I'll just point to the other thread too. I've already mentioned all that I can say about this subject at the moment.

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landcruiser77 says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:12:

CHURCH AND RELIGION CAN BURN IN HELL BUREAUCRATIC AND STUPID TO SEE THIS PRIEST AND RELIGION LEADERS TALKING ABOUT LIFE,POLITICS AND SOCIAL BEHAVIOR.
NOBODY CARES ABOUT RTELIGION,THE CHURCH FORGET HOW MANY PEOPLE GET KILLED BECAUSE SUCH RELIGION THING LONG TIME AGO WHICH IS WORST RELIGION OR POLITIC REGIME!!!

£æ

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greg says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:20:

Uribe Sounding more and more like little King Georgie every day

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ColomBuenazo says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:22:

THERE CAN´T BE A COMPROMISE!! Democratic issues like this CAN'T BE GIVEN A COMPROMISE. A political state is EITHER SECULAR or a RELIGIOUS state but it can't be in-between. Uribe wants to turn Colombia into an extended arm of the Vatican because I don't believe he wants to emulate IRAN.
In reference to the consequences of teaching religion now or in the past, I can only say that this opinion only reflects a great lack of sophistication and understanding of the political process, democracy itself and constitutional principles. The grave consequences that a bill like this will bring about is the closing of the human mind by fostering and perpetuating magical (religious) dogmas regardless of the type of religion. Obviously some people couldn't care less either way, since they don't truly understand what it's at stake; that is to say RATIONALISM, FREE-THINKING and FREEDOM of the Colombian people.
Lastly, there is a UNFALLIBLE CORRELATION between a country's secularity and the level of DEVELOPMENT. The more a country is developed, the less religious it is.
Thanks to the PHB'er who posted the link to the Colombian House of Representatives.
www.camararep.gov.co

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ColomBuenazo says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:30:

ACTUAL HOUSE OF REP'S LINK!! Send an email! www.camara.gov.co/web/mod.php?mod=contacts&op=listall&PHPSESSID=e9c4acd449256a7b4eba3b71d88cbecd

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juancegomez says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:14:

... "Uribe wants to turn Colombia into an extended arm of the Vatican because I don't believe he wants to emulate IRAN."

Actual proof of this?

"Lastly, there is a UNFALLIBLE CORRELATION between a country's secularity and the level of DEVELOPMENT. The more a country is developed, the less religious it is."

I'm not religious, at all, so I could care less, but could you actually prove this as well?

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ColomBuenazo says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:59:

NOT TO A RELIGIOUS STATE!! Asking for proof of this is greatly irrelevant because it's not addressing the topic or the original thread. However, I don't think that I'd have to even provide an answer to such a self-evident challenge. In any case, I've decided to take the time --not by copying and pasting comments-- but to actually compose a reply.

Please see the latest bilingual scientific report on the correlation of Science, Religion and Development:
http://atta.labb.usb.ve/Klaus/ScieRelDev.pdf

Now, the comment about the Vatican is obviously tongue-in-cheek. But it's not a secret that Uribe is a fervorous, Bush-like, religious president who would favor many laws that would please his religious vies and constituency.

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platano says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:33:

I would not be opposed to this if it were approached academically in such a way that an appreciation of different philosophical approaches were offered (theism, atheism, agnosticism, nondualism, etc.) as well as an appreciation of comparative religions which included a study of primitive religions (animistic, pagan, wiccan, neo-pagan, earth-based traditions, etc.), as well as both eastern systems of belief (hinduism, buddhism, sikhism, taoism, shintoism, etc.) and western religious systems of belief (christianity, islam, judaism, zoroastrianism, etc.)

This would avoid promoting any one "belief system" and enable people to become more critical of all belief systems... perhaps resulting in an increase in secularity, perhaps resulting in an embrace of the sacred, but, whatever happened... an embrace of either the sacred or the profane, at least it would be a rationally informed decision.

In any event, in increasingly diverse and multicultural societies it cannot hurt to be more understanding of the differences which people have in the area of what Tillich called "ultimate concern".

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 25, 2006, 17:16:

My favorite bumper sticker reads "You don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."


However, Colombuenazo, I think you've got yourself a bit over-worked-up.

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juancegomez says on Jan 25, 2006, 17:16:

Colombuenazo:

It might be obvious, to a degree, that a correlation might exist, that much is fairly understandable.

But it is questionable whether it's going to be equally strong in all countries, and whether secularity is a cause or an effect of development (or both, assuming a different role or a different degree of importance depending on the circumstances). Look at Italy's classification, for example.

"But it's not a secret that Uribe is a fervorous, Bush-like, religious president who would favor many laws that would please his religious vies and constituency."

Really? Doesn't seem as evident as that...Uribe has hardly made even a fifth of the religious references that Bush does, if not even less.

He also hasn't even addressed most of the traditional subjects of a Catholic constituency (aside from a comment about suggesting the delaying of sexual activity until marriage), his wife has openly spoken in favor of abortion, and considering that he has friends and political allies in the Protestant and Jewish communities, that might not sit too well with the Vatican (especially in the earlier case, since Protestants aren't exactly on the best of terms with the Catholic Church). So it's not as simple as that.

platano:

While I doubt that all those options are ever going to be offered, I do remember that, in my particular case, during one of my old "religion" courses they did provide an overview of the beliefs of several religions (four or five, I think). There was at least one openly atheist student in attendance and he managed to defend his point of view in a decent way, without being a hypocrite (and he managed to graduate too).

Obviously this is just an anecdotic example, as it can't be generalized automatically, especially when the circumstances might well be different.

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juancegomez says on Jan 25, 2006, 18:05:

... It's not that they hate each other, no, but there have been problems (outside of the obvious...I mean, if you're Protestant you are not Catholic and vice versa...you may be Christian, yes, but you are following what is technically a heretical faith, even if such accusations are not made so explicitly these days, they aren't exactly unknown).

For example, the creation of many "garage churches", Protestant priests using Catholic rites and clothes, the sometimes overly ostentatious and loud nature of some Protestant sects and their leaders, the fact that some Protestant communities have more flexible attitudes towards abortion or euthanasia, etc. contribute to make some Catholics, at least the more orthodox ones, see them in a negative light. And, logically, some Protestants often accuse the Church and its structure of corruption, greed, elitism, distortion of the words of Christ, etc.

None of this has had any really serious consequences at the moment, that is true...but remember that there's a very conservative pope in the Vatican currently (and the infamous Colombian Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo, btw, made some very reactionary comments yesterday in an interview on RCN, even if he did so in a respectful tone...).

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platano says on Jan 25, 2006, 18:24:

Tinto, As I recall the religion classes in Colombian schools were given over a period of years. With an articulated and progressive curriculum it may not be so difficult to present the basics of various faiths, as juancegomez indicated was done in his colegio. Depending on the depth of presentation even an explanation of Christianity might be too much for children to really appreciate. Sure, the basics like believing in Jesus and surrendering to God as the two key components to being a Christian, can be described but even that has considerable theological complexity and could easily provide a bridge to other religions, such as Islam, where surrender to God is also primary.

But even if instruction were limited to Catholicism there is considerable depth to be explored, as I have indicated in my PBH posts on TRANSUBSTANTIATION and cannibalism and my quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/)

To sum up, at a survey level all faiths could be successfully presented in the curriculum. As an in-depth study of theological doctrine there is not enough time in the curriculum to even present Catholicism well.

plátano

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