Uribe Asks For New Presidential Vote In Colombia

robi666 says on Jun 27, 2008, 03:30:

I cannot understand if it means new election and 4 more years in power, or just a way to finish the actual legislation.

In any case, a (too) strong reaction. The Supreme Court is just doing its work: it was probably not the time and way to act.

In its speech, he criticized not only the order of reviewing the law that allowed the reelection in 2006, but also the sentence and the work of the Court itself (2).
The mention about the paras extradition is without any meaning in this context and smells of "propaganda populista".

No doubt what the people will vote, but a democratic elected President cannot extend its power above any other constitutional organ, no matter how high is his approval rate.

What's next? The referendum could ask whether his powers should be unlimited and if he can be declared King of Colombia...
Not a great moment for democracy in Colombia, and, yes, it makes him look like Chavez.

Finally, reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism would surely help some of the people here.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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romy says on Jun 27, 2008, 05:43:

I believe this is the definition of a demagogue... populism over constitution, over the law... I wonder if Uribe is interested in the title of Emperador?



Oposición dice que Uribe intenta provocar crisis institucional en Colombia llamando a repetir elecciones del 2006

Bogotá, 27 jun (AFP-RHC) El opositor partido Liberal acusó al presidente colombiano Alvaro Uribe de intentar "provocar una crisis institucional", después que el mandatario anunciara que pedirá al Congreso un referendo que permita repetir de inmediato la elección presidencial de 2006.

"Es muy preocupante lo que esta pasando. El anuncio es bastante grave, es una actitud desafiante del presidente frente a la Justicia. El gobierno está actuando en caliente y trata de provocar una crisis institucional", señaló Cecilia López, portavoz del partido Liberal en el Senado.

En una inusual alocución poco antes de la medianoche, Uribe anunció que pedirá al Congreso realizar un referendo para "la inmediata repetición de las elecciones presidenciales de 2006".

El presidente hizo el anuncio después que la Corte Suprema de Justicia pidiera que se revise la legalidad de la reforma a la constitución que le permitió a Uribe ser reelegido para un segundo periodo.

La Corte hizo ese pedido basada en la condena a una ex congresista que confesó haber recibido sobornos del gobierno para votar a favor de la reforma.

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 06:57:

Definitely, that was a pretty transparent communique in terms of populism and once again confirmed his tendency to be a demagogue. Can't really disagree there.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean that all things are going to just happen according to Uribe's wishes, rhetorical or otherwise. It's easy to make such declarations, but putting them in practice is another matter.

This communique expresses a purely political stance, when the issue itself remains judicial at its core, and isn't going to be magically resolved just because Uribe has made this proposal.

One could say that this proposal is illegal, in concept, but since this proposal has to go through Congress, it could suffer many modifications in the meanwhile, or judicial challenges even.

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PALEOLITICO says on Jun 27, 2008, 06:58:

"Not a great moment for democracy in Colombia, and, yes, it makes him look like Chavez"

Pienso lo contrario: La democracia es la voluntad del pueblo. Qué mas democrático que lo que está proponiendo Uribe?. Creo que la repetición de las elecciones seria una gran forma de fortalecer la democracia, pues no cabría ninguna duda acerca de quién es la persona que el pueblo desea que esté en el poder rigiendo el destino de Colombia.

Será que si en Venezuela las elecciones se repitieran, Chavez volvería a ser elegido??

"I cannot understand if it means new election and 4 more years in power, or just a way to finish the actual legislation".

Creo que ninguna de las 2. Creo que se busca con esto que Uribe pueda terminar el actual mandato en forma normal, sin mas cuestionamientos acerca de su legitimidad en el poder.

Enseñame a enseñar.

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romy says on Jun 27, 2008, 07:05:

Juance- I see Uribe using this vote to 'trump' any judicial ruling... How is congress these days anyways? can the guys being investigated for parapolitica still vote?

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 27, 2008, 07:17:

Its a bit frustrating to see how the president expresses little regard for the constitution, democratic institutions and the other branches of government. If this thing comes through it will be setting a sombre precedent for the future. Democracy is so much more than the rule of the masses...it's very sad that even some educated people have decided to join the hype and ignore the very foundations of Colombia as a nation.
I am still hopeful though, Colombia voted against his first referendum and opposition is becoming more and more widespread. One can only hope.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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tasco66 says on Jun 27, 2008, 07:26:

Sr. Presidente, thank you for listening to the will of the people

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 27, 2008, 07:46:

Would this be an election to confirm the rest of his current term, or would it extend it for four years beyond the election date?

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robi666 says on Jun 27, 2008, 07:54:

That was my doubt... why? What's the practical reason of it?
And I cannot really understand your answer Paleo. It should be one of the two.

Chavez has been elected, and we could just make speculations about the next elections. But he is clearly a populist (in a negative way).
Uribe, confirming his attitude toward the democratic institutions and institutional organs, is following the same path.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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tejasmarcos says on Jun 27, 2008, 08:03:

careful what you wish for...... you may eventually get it. if uribe were an actual "chavez", most of us would not be wasting time on this board.

- nothing new. scandals like this occur in almost every democratic government around the world including the usa throughout history. the key is that the power figure is currently benefitting the social fabric of the nation as a whole. most of these people are "left out" of the political process to begin with other than their voting ability.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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PALEOLITICO says on Jun 27, 2008, 08:17:

Robbi: Si se repitieran las elecciones y Uribe no fuera reelegido nuevamente, su actual mandato debería terminar y tomaría poseción inmediata quien le ganara en las elecciones. Creo que eso es lo lógico. Habrá que esperar que decide el Congreso.

Pero si Uribe volviera a ganar, pues no creo que sea para extender su mandato otros 4 años, sino simplemente para terminar el actual sin tantos cuestionamientos.

Enseñame a enseñar.

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tejasmarcos says on Jun 27, 2008, 08:27:

the colombian people should form another march and tell congress what they think....

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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robi666 says on Jun 27, 2008, 08:30:

Why don't march in black shirt, then? Just to put things in a clearer perspective... :)

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 10:19:

ColombianoGringo : That isn't entirely clear and remains open to interpretation.

At first sight, you could assume it would mean another four years, after the date of the election.

romy: Again, I would caution against taking this too literally until such a referendum is actually being processed in Congress or elsewhere.

In fact, today many analysts, all other criticisms aside, are saying that Uribe jumped the gun, and that this proposal was premature.

The idea alone sounds more than illegal enough, but this wouldn't be the first time Uribe proposes a certain thing and, for one reason or another, what actually ends up happening is something else (does anyone want remember all the changes the 2003 referendum went through, from its initial proposal until the actual vote? ).

I agree that Uribe is trying to "trump" the Supreme Court's decision, as you pointed out, but I think that isn't everything we have to consider.

This proposed referendum is political, but it would have no effect on the specific judicial matter: the legality and legitimacy of the 2004 legislative bill which permitted Uribe's 2006 reelection in the first place.

The only way it would have an effect is if Uribe actively, not just verbally, goes against whatever Court rulings come up next.

This Supreme Court ruling, which was essentially against Yidis Medina, doesn't have any automatic effects, it merely sets the stage for further inquiries.

Other aspects, such as who actually "bribed" Medina (I'm still not sure we can speak of a "bribe" in the most traditional sense, since this is hardly such a simple case), have to be considered by other jurisdictions.

And then we go back to the main point: the legality and legitimacy of the 2006 reelection, which is an issue needing to be resolved, probably by the Constitutional Court.

If and when that Court rules, one way or another, about Uribe's reelection, then we will see if Uribe is really intending to go against the rule of law. Not just rhetorically, ideologically and politically as this proposal shows, but in practice.

As for Congress...it depends. Those who are suspended from Congress or who have chosen to quit can't vote, naturally.

But the mere initiation of an investigation isn't usually enough, at least until the initial process advances and leads to actual arrests or further judicial proceedings. It's also possible for the preliminary investigation to end without any results.

Then again, even if some individuals are suspended, the replacements have to be people from their own parties. Which doesn't necessarily mean they have equal guilt, but isn't exactly a good sign either. It is, however, the currently legal procedure.

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 27, 2008, 10:42:

Juance, Well if that is the case, then this seems like nothing more than an end run around the constitution.

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Colombiareports.com says on Jun 27, 2008, 10:49:

On Caracol one of Uribe's advisers says Uribe wants to do the referendum only to justify his past two years and be able to continue the coming two. So one of the questions is clear. He doesn't want to go for a new full four years under the same mandate.

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 10:50:

ColombianoGringo :

That's what it seems like...but I'm not sure about what will actually happen with it.

It's an idea right now, not something written in stone.

Colombiareports.com:

Well, that wasn't clear from just his proposal alone.

I'd continue to wait for the specifics.

Without those specifics, what we have is the current mess.

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PALEOLITICO says on Jun 27, 2008, 11:00:

El problema de todo esto no es la legitimidad de Uribe en el poder, pues quedó muy claro en las pasadas elecciones que Colombia lo eligió democraticamente y que las elecciones fueron limpias. Así que unas nuevas elecciones no solucionan el problema que se se está planteando.

El problema es que se pone en duda la legitimidad del acto legislativo por el cual se permitió la reelección presidencial, debido al voto que vendió Yidis Medina y que definia el resultado definitivo.

Creo que ya no hay manera de arreglar esto. Y si la hubiera no sería a través de nuevas elecciones (porque darían el mismo resultado de Uribe como presidente) sino que el Congreso volviera a votar ese acto legislativo.

Pero suponiendo que esto fuera posible, y el Congreso volviera a votar para aprobar o no la reelección y esta no fuera aprobada, qué pasaría entonces con Uribe??

Enseñame a enseñar.

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gato-bandido says on Jun 27, 2008, 11:21:

It probably would be best if the referendum resolved all three questions:

- whether or not a (first) reelection should be allowed
- whether or not the last elections should be repeated
- whether or not a second reelection should be allowed

That would take care of all the (real or perceived) issues, and also allow Uribe to run again in 2010.

I hope that is what he means to do.

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romy says on Jun 27, 2008, 11:29:

might as well add the 4th question then... are you going to vote for Uribe or for someone else? so to save on paper, time, worries, and money............ I'd rather they respected the constitution

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 11:30:

PALEOLITICO:

That is technically correct, but the legality of the election is affected by that of the legislative bill.

To what extent...is for the judges to decide.

gato-bandido :

That would be better than the alternative, in any case, but I wouldn't know if it if legally possible at this point.

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 12:42:

Unas de cal y otras de arena...pero la cosa igual pinta muy mal.

First, Uribe appears to be serious about escalating the crisis, and now intends to judicially denounce Supreme Court magistrates before the Accusations Commission of the Colombian Congress, for false accusations and for alleged guerrilla or paramilitary influence.

Second, it does appear that the proposed referendum will not extend Uribe's term for another four years, but seems to be restricted to the remaining two.

Third, it seems that minister Fabio Valencia Cossio will be responsible for determining the specific question that will be included in the proposed referendum.

-------------
Denuncia penal contra magistrados de la Sala Penal de la Corte Suprema de Justicia hará el Gobierno

El presidente Alvaro Uribe dijo al mediodía desde la Casa de Nariño que se debe investigar la supuesta infiltración del paramilitarismo en este tribunal.

Uribe dijo que así como unas declaraciones de Mancuso en el sentido de que los paramilitares habían elegido el 35 por ciento del Congreso, debería ocurrir lo mismo con la Corte Suprema. Uribe recordó que antes de ser extraditado, Mancuso dijo que la Corte había sido infiltrada por su organización delectiva.

También anunció que esta tarde, su ministro de Proección Social, Diego Palacio, pedirá a la Comisión de Acusación de la Cámara de Representantes, que investigue penalmente a los miembros de la Sala Penal de la Corte Suprema de Justicia, por falsas imputaciones.

El ministro del Interior, Fabio Valencia Cossio, quien debía viajar a México este medio día, fue encargado por el presidente como ministro delegatario y se le asignó la misión de preparar, de manera inmediata, la pregunta que se hará a los colombianos, a través del referendo.

Palacio también confirmó que la elección presidencial que se repetiría, no prolongaría el período actual del mandatario colombiano.

La decisión del Presidente involucra al Congreso de la República en el choque de poderes que se profundizó ayer, tras las acusaciones recíprocas que se hicieron las cabezas de la Corte y el Ejecutivo.

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/politica/2008-06-27/denuncia-penal-co...

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 12:57:

----
Junio 27

Declaración del Presidente de la República, Alvaro Uribe Vélez, y el Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacios


Presidente Alvaro Uribe Vélez: El Ministro va a hacer una declaración.

Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacio: Buenas tardes. He tenido la oportunidad, en la noche de ayer, de conocer la sentencia de la Sala Penal de la Corte contra la ex representante Yidis Medina.

Encuentro, a lo largo de esa sentencia, unas afirmaciones que no corresponden a la realidad. Unas afirmaciones que son totalmente falsas y, como tengo la total convicción de la falsedad de esas afirmaciones, he tomado la decisión, en el transcurso de esta tarde, de visitar la Comisión de Acusaciones para denunciar a los magistrados y solicitar a la Comisión de Acusaciones que se sirva investigar y que los magistrados tengan que demostrar las afirmaciones falsas que han hecho en este documento.

El Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacio, ofreció este jueves, en la Casa de Nariño, una declaración a los medios de comunicación sobre el tema de la ex congresista Yidis Medina. Palacio estuvo acompañado por el Presidente de la República, �?lvaro Uribe Vélez.
Foto: Juan Felipe Barriga - SP

Presidente �?lvaro Uribe Vélez: Ministro, por qué no les muestra a los periodistas las afirmaciones falsas que hacen sobre usted.

Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacio: Presidente, hacen varias afirmaciones falsas. Quiero solo hablar de una. Dicen: ‘el Ministro de Protección Social, Diego Palacio, le ofreció participación en instituciones a su cargo en el Magdalena Medio, en Barrancabermeja y así ocurrió -dicen ellos- porque nombraron a Carlos Correa Mosquera’. Siguen hablando de otros nombramientos.

Presidente �?lvaro Uribe Vélez: ¿Por qué es falso lo de Carlos Correa?

Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacio: Desconoce la Corte, Presidente y señores televidentes, desconoce la Corte, por ejemplo, que Carlos Correa, en la declaración que dio ante la Procuraduría General, que ha dado ante la misma Corte, dice que él no conocía a Yidis Medina, que Yidis Medina no participó en su nombramiento.

Desconoce también la declaración del nominador, que dice que yo no participe absolutamente en nada en ese nombramiento y desconoció la Corte, antes de hacer estas afirmaciones, que con toda la disposición, con toda la voluntad y con toda la transparencia que ha caracterizado a este Gobierno, yo le ofrecí a la Corte y le dije: ‘Yo quiero ir, para que ustedes puedan oír las versiones que nosotros tenemos’.

Y hacen unas afirmaciones sin ni siquiera habernos dado la posibilidad de escuchar la versión de unos funcionarios que con dedicación y transparencia han venido trabajando en este Gobierno.

Presidente �?lvaro Uribe Vélez: Ministro, el tema del Sena y el tema de Etesa.

Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacio: Presidente, en el caso del Sena, hay un proceso meritocrático que está, incluso, identificada la persona por la Universidad Nacional. Antes de proceder a hacer el nombramiento, desde el año 2003, tengo entendido que estaba en ese proceso meritocrático.

Presidente �?lvaro Uribe Vélez: ¿Usted participó en algo de nombramientos a la señora Yidis Medina en Etesa?

Ministro de la Protección Social, Diego Palacio: No, Presidente. Y le pueden perfectamente preguntar a la Directora de Etesa si en algún momento dado yo hice algún tipo de llamada para poder inferir en el nombramiento de alguna persona; ni en el Sena ni en Etesa.

Presidente �?lvaro Uribe Vélez: El Ministro va a presentar ante la Comisión de Acusaciones de la Cámara de Representantes la denuncia para que se investiguen estos hechos, que el Ministro ha expresado son falsos, que la Corte Suprema no tiene manera de probar que son verdad y que afectan al Ministro de la Protección.

Quiero recordar esto:

Esta mañana algunos compatriotas me han preguntado por el tema de la justicia selectiva.

Compatriotas, hagamos memoria. Cuando empezaba la lucha de la Seguridad Democrática de este Gobierno, apenas en los albores de este Gobierno, Salvatore Mancuso, hoy extraditado, dijo que los paramilitares habían elegido el 30, 35 por ciento del Congreso. Ese fue un elemento de indicio, un elemento probatorio para todo el proceso de la parapolitica.

Hace no mucho tiempo, Salvatore Mancuso dijo que tenía infiltrada la Corte Suprema de Justicia. ¿Por qué esto no se ha investigado? Lo quiero decir ante mis compatriotas: ¿Por qué la Sala Penal de la Corte Suprema de Justicia es tan diligente para investigar y condenar algunos congresistas y por qué lo es tan negligente cuando se trata de vinculaciones con la Farc?

Un compatriota me decía esta mañana: ‘¡Cuidado, Presidente, que aquí estamos en frente de los coletazos del terrorismo!’.

Pues vamos a enfrentarlos, vamos a enfrentarlos con toda la determinación y formulo estas preguntas. Y que la Sala Penal de la Corte Suprema de Justicia responda.

Esta no es una cosita para que ahora sectores de la oposición la manejen con sofismas de distracción. Esto es para enfrentar un tema de fondo.

Muchas gracias, amigos periodistas".

http://web.presidencia.gov.co/sp/2008/junio/27/03272008.html

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 27, 2008, 13:43:

So, if the court rules that the last election was flawed or illegal, who becomes president?

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billyb says on Jun 27, 2008, 13:51:

Piedad.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 27, 2008, 13:52:

Oh, well then, that makes it an easy question.

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juancegomez says on Jun 27, 2008, 14:02:

You'd have to ask a lawyer, but even then...

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tejasmarcos says on Jun 27, 2008, 15:15:

all latin american elections run in sync. the question is the remaining two.

- i think bill tried to bribe monica with a cigar and nothing became of that.....
- and kennedy..... need i say more....

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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MitchAlvarez says on Jun 28, 2008, 10:41:

"Ingrid callate la jeta!! Stay in France"

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