Two men fatally shot during protests in Colombia

mariacvetanoski says on Oct 22, 2008, 06:07:

"We went out there today to reject the government, and they open fire on us," one protester said.

Save the street children of Colombia Now!!

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azunoman says on Oct 22, 2008, 09:15:

The new I got (RCN eng) was that the two killed were going to throw a bomb but it blew up in their hands...sad for their families in either case...

Playing the ugly American on request or as required. Ready, Fire, Aim

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mariacvetanoski says on Oct 22, 2008, 09:31:

that is sad...

Save the street children of Colombia Now!!

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Alma del Norte says on Oct 22, 2008, 10:30:

.

La vida es una rutina

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adela says on Oct 22, 2008, 14:42:

Azunoman: Is RCN TV channel in Colombia the source of your info about the bomb? If so, I would not be sure about the content of the information. However, the people killed or dead aren't part of the indians protest, but they lived so close to the concentration of indians. One of them received a shot in his head, the second one has not a clear cause of dead(perhaps a bomb).

Màs fe, màs abrazos, màs besos, màs disculpas, màs visitas a nuestros amigos antiguos nos haràn màs plenos cada vez.

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 22, 2008, 21:14:

One of the peasants dies of a gunshot wound in the head, the other one in the back. The medics that attended them have testified the facts. Uribe says that yes, the security forces shot at the demonstrators but that the peasants didn't die of that. The chief of police says the police were unarmed. WHAT???

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Oct 22, 2008, 21:19:

You ever hear of the Kennedy "magic bullet'?, shit happens, specially when you have proffesional agitators inciting violence.

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 22, 2008, 21:27:

I have also heard the words "professional agitators", FARC "infiltration" and "Terrorists hiding in the crowd" every time innocent people die when trying to protest against injustice and confrontonted by armed public force. That's how guerrilla movements get started.;out of that frustration and anger of only geting hurt and killed when trying to get your voice heard.

There are things happening in Colombia right now that are not handled properly: the march of the Indigenous peoples, the canecutters strike, perhaps the Uribe bubble is starting to burst? In spite of the polls, perhaps not everybody is not so happy about his way of managing things?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Oct 22, 2008, 21:35:

"the march of the Indigenous peoples, the canecutters strike, perhaps the Uribe bubble is starting to burst? "

Perhaps you see that, and perhaps you might be right, but others might see the hand of the ones in little Hugo's pocket doing his bidding. The question is, who is right? And more importantly, who do Colombians think is right.

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billyb says on Oct 22, 2008, 22:13:

A dios, to be a euro leftist, you have to give up all pretense to intellectual honesty and a good portion of common sense.

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billyb says on Oct 22, 2008, 22:24:

"They called the shots from 1000, until 1945."

And what a mess they made of their dominance, let's see, genocide. pillage, rape, slavery..... and this is the continent that is going to show the world the way? jajajaja. And yes, the euros always have the jews handy to blame when they fok up.

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 09:16:

It didn't take long from this thread to degenerate into mud casting.... The focus of the discussion was diverted from the chain of events we were talking about to imaginary witch hunt that you guys are so good at. So, instead of talking about indigenous people and their rightful claimto the land and the death of two indigenous peasants (Uribe admitted the shooting) lets talk about Eurosocialists and Hugo Chavez, sling a few mudball volleys at the other participants in the discussion who have a different view, bring even the spread of Islam into it and ruin a perfectly good topic.

Good work billyb and ESPECIALLY dios le pido. (Your favorite singer seems to have more social conscience than you)

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 09:31:

I'm not politically oriented. My main interest remains to be Colombia, what happens there and the political scene there. I have no opinion on the things that you mentioned because I haven't read about them nor am familiar with the background of those regrettable events.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 09:57:

The media reports only what they think is newsworthy; about third world countries the treshold is usually in a couple of hundred deads, but occasionally even a few violent deaths get reported if they can be tied to a larger political scene. Thus, the media in Scandinavia has been keeping an eye on Colombia and what happens there, small news every now and then but there's a watch. I get my news of Colombia from Colombian media and people I talk to directly, but if I didn't have an interest in Colombia I probably would be pretty much ignorant on anything happening there and would easily share the view, say, my workmates have: a dangerous, unruly country on the other side of the globe, with a right-leaning, authoritarian president and huge problem with drugs, guerrilla and paramilitary groups.

There's nothing basically very wrong with that image, except that it lacks nuances. We read about the murder of the peasants, the displacement of the indigenous people, the robbing of their lands, the death of the union leaders, schoolteachers, journalists, community leaders and then change the channel to domestic affairs. It's absolutely and totally wrong to say (like some people do here) that Europeans all think alike or have the same opinion on say, for example Hugo Chavez or Alvaro Uribe, Obama or McCaine, the FARC or The AUC; the media reports little and basically just facts; an occasional in-depth article to cover the background of a newsworthy event (like the liberation of Ingrid Betancourt) but never enough material so that your average Joe would have a good idea on the overall situation.

I have neither the time nor the interest to follow the incidents all over the world; I'm like everybody else: I read the titles, skim over the body of the text, look at the picture and go on to the next thing. There's just too much happening in the world for anybody really to keep track of.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 10:07:

We have plenty of conservatives here too and we don't hate them. We have a conservative coalition government now and we try to live with that

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 11:08:

I don't know that for a fact.
I've heard that being said before. Myself I would place our "moderaterna" somewhere between your republicans and yiur democrats, closer to the democrats, though. The way they've been privatizing everything has been driving people crazy here...I believe the social democrats will take over again...they are pretty even at every opinion poll, a balance between the left and the right.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:13:

What billyb and a dios le pido write makes us want to vomite.
How is it possible to be so hateful and so arrogant ?
And they do not understand why many people (not only from Europa but from all the continents) do not like them ?
The "Ugly American" is not dead !
But, thanks to God, USA is going to its decline.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:17:

I do not understand why some comments of these two guys are not immediately deleted.
It is no more freedom of speech, they encourage hate, racism, xenophobia; they are enemies of the humanity.
Really poor America for having given birth to such a crew.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:26:

Pobrecito, I blame it on the US American schools that do not give the kids any grasp of how the real world functions, especially politically. There's a great confusion on what is a political debate and just mudcasting at people who don't share your view. ironic, sarcastic, hateful comments are considered funny and smart, I'm afraid in that inferior political culture. That's why it's a total waste of time to discuss politics with most US Americans. They just don't have the skills.

Gods how I miss juancegomez and Sr. Tertius and their interesting viewpoints; well-thought comments, not just knee-jerk reactions.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:27:

Yes YOU make ALL the people with some humanity want to vomite.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:27:

Who are you a dios le pido ? You are not a newbie ...

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:32:

No, he isn't a newbie. Just a new handle....

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:34:

He has several handles?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:44:

Yes, I would very much condemn such behaviour. Furthermore, I very much welcome American tourists to our streets and happen to live in a very quaint little town that receives lot of tourists every year, from all over the world.

I'm sorry but I'm not taking back what I said about the political education of the US American youth. I find it very lacking, compared with the education the kids receive, say for example, in France, Italy or even the Scandinavian countries. I think the educationin USA is fabulous, especially in sciences and in college/university level ingeneral, but not the basic elementary/high school level.

I've worked in education all my life, in Colombia, USA and Scandinavia and I really believe that the European 15-year-old knows much more about different political and economical systems than the US equivalent.

Now, of course, this is just my opinion, based on empiric experience and You don't need to chew my head off for saying it.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:57:

You know what the other idiot thinks about you and your lack of political culture ?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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elmodefoque says on Oct 23, 2008, 14:57:

i have to concur with desi
as a resipient of usa public school education, i'm a a prime sample of stupity at its highest.
just check out my spellin
I had guys in my high school classroom that had no idea what the capital of new york state was. I still remember this dumb modefoque saying it was syaracus.
how could you live in ny and not kwow the capital is bufalo

I'll get there, when I get there!

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pobrecito says on Oct 23, 2008, 15:01:

adioslepido = TobyBoy = billyb = tasco66 ?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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greg says on Oct 23, 2008, 19:26:

Getting back to the protests, democracy now had a story about it today.
www.democracynow.org

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billyb says on Oct 23, 2008, 19:30:

One thing american culture and schools do well is teach the individual how to think for themselves and fight for what they believe is right, something so sorely lacking in european, and specially french, culture.

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billyb says on Oct 23, 2008, 20:10:

" i do believe she is an idealist"

The road to perdition is paved with idealists.

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pobrecito says on Oct 24, 2008, 01:29:

"One thing american culture and schools do well is teach the individual how to think for themselves"

jajaja

Are you serious?

USA are the most uncultivated people on the Earth (except some towns like NY); it is well known, except in the USA.

See Palin, McCain, Schwarzenegger, billyb, tasco66, adioslepedzouille.

Jajaja

You know only repeat like parrots what Fox News (False News) says.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 24, 2008, 02:40:

"JUAN GONZALEZ: In Colombia, more than 10,000 indigenous Colombians have begun a protest march against President Alvaro Uribe. The march comes one week after three people were killed and dozens were injured at the outset of a national mobilization for indigenous rights. The activists are protesting the militarization of their territories, the US-Colombia Free Trade Agreement, and the failure of President Uribe’s administration to fulfill various accords with the indigenous communities. Uribe has responded by calling for the investigation of indigenous leaders, including Daniel Piñacue.


PRESIDENT ALVARO URIBE: [translated] The Colombian government asks for the prosecution of those who are violent. The Colombian government asks the judges to investigate the behavior of people like Daniel Piñacue, which is a behavior that incites violence and deserves to be studied by Colombian prosecutors and judges.



JUAN GONZALEZ: The Colombian government has accused indigenous groups of being infiltrated by FARC rebels. Daniel Piñacue denied the allegations.


DANIEL PINACUE: [translated] I am very surprised, and I consider it very unfortunate. I do not cover my face to take action in this walk. My actions are clear, and I face the Colombian people. And this is why President Uribe has to face us, the indigenous farmers and the people here at this protest walk."

(from the source greg posted)

This is the kind of individual responsibility and individual thinking and making choices even European schools endorse.Not mudslinging behind the protection of anonymity on an internet forum.

This indigenous leader has gained my respect; he will also be either in prison for sedition or murdered by paras very shortly.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Oct 24, 2008, 06:30:

At least in America, the people don't follow in lockstep when tyrants and despots like Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Mussolini, Milosovic order them to march forward and destroy their neighbors, rape, pillage and burn villages, and all this only after they have murdered or jailed everybody in their own country that dared not to follow them blindly. jajaj, you eurosocialists are so hypocritical that you are actually very amusing.

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 24, 2008, 07:22:

No, they follow in lockstep behind halfwit leaders and bible thumpers, sect leaders and great liers just take your pick. You have your home-grown variety of enemies of humankind right on your home turf.

You can laugh as much as you want but take a good look at the mirror and tell me in which way you think you are better. Without dragging in the whole history of humankind, without separating yourself from the train of events that have produced YOUR history, your background. I know nothing of you, but if you look carefully enough you just MIGHT find something there that you should not be so proud of.

I don't think of myself as "eurosocialist", gods, I don't even know exactly what trhat would be. A member of the communist party in Italy? A mild-mannered Swedish social democrat? A labour supporter from the UK? I'm NONE of the above. Even if I were, I would still be humble enough to be able to admit when I'm wrong without setting labels on others and arrogantly hurling around words meant as insults.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Oct 24, 2008, 07:30:

"Even if I were, I would still be humble enough "

What can we say? Europeans have plenty to be humble about.

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billyb says on Oct 24, 2008, 07:57:

I don't think so. We can't count on WE, but we will never go to war with them. At least as long as they don't become aprt of a resurgent russian empire, but from today's news it looks like "mighty" russian might default onits debt and be sent back to 4th world status from which it hust recently emerged. By this time next year the number of billionaires in moscow will drop from 150 today to about 3. Wouldn't it be sweet irony that the two tyrants that are going to suffer the most from amreica's crisis will be putin and the mutt chavez?

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pobrecito says on Oct 24, 2008, 08:00:

These two guys are unbearable kids who spent their time contemplating the navel of each other and saying: our US navels are the most beautiful of the world.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 24, 2008, 11:28:

a dios le pido:
I don't think you have anything to worry about with the European left. As far as I know, they're mostly pacifists. They fight with words, not with bombs and missils.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Oct 24, 2008, 17:56:

"These two guys are unbearable kids who spent their time contemplating the navel of each other and saying: our US navels are the most beautiful of the world."

Yet, you live to read what we post, how sad for you.

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pobrecito says on Oct 24, 2008, 23:21:

Yes your only argument is bombing and killing other people.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Mongo says on Oct 24, 2008, 23:56:

Its a good thing that Americans can handle the responsibility of bombing and killing other people. If they couldn't, then you Europeans would all be speaking German and working for the Third Reich right now.

Not only did the US save Western Europe's ass in WW2, but they fed Western Europe, helped rebuild Western Europe, and taught Western Europe how to run capitalist enterprises.

Ancient history? No, the US continues to protect Europe to this day, and did all the way through the Cold War. And then there were those little mishaps in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo that the US had to solve - because Europeans prefer to sit around running their mouths about problems instead of following through with solutions!

That said, I do love Europe. Its the Old World, where the US's culture comes from. But it is simply a FACT that were it not for the US, Europeans would not even be able to sit around and voice their political opinions on this website!

"Here in Colombia, it's about adding life to your years, not years to your life." Brian Andrews

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 25, 2008, 03:44:

Cali recibe a más de 20.000 indígenas

Redacción de El País en Cali y Popayán

Descanso. Al llegar a Jamundí, los indígenas se dieron un baño con una manguera que abrieron los bomberos del municipio vecino. Otros fueron hasta un río.
Ernesto Guzmán Jr. / El País

Esta mañana 20.000 indígenas llegarán a la Universidad del Valle. Se comprometen a no hacer daños.

Para las 8:00 a.m. de hoy se prevé el ingreso de más de 20.000 indígenas a la capital del Valle. Los manifestantes saldrán alrededor de las 6:00 a.m. de Jamundí, a donde llegaron ayer tras dos días de marcha y uno de descanso.

Los miembros de resguardos de Cauca, Nariño, Huila y otros departamentos se establecerán en la Universidad del Valle, donde pernoctarán. Pero antes de llegar a la institución, realizarán un travesía por el sur de la ciudad (ver mapa).

“Haremos un recorrido con nuestro folclor y mujeres, nos interesa saludar a los ciudadanos. Nuestros médicos tradicionales harán un refrescamiento (ritual) para que haya excelentes energías”, dijo Darío Tote, miembro del Consejo Regional Indígena del Cauca, Cric.

En la tarde, los indígenas descansarán y se prepararán para el encuentro este domingo con el Presidente, el cual sería a las 10:00 a.m. y tardaría tres horas. Esperan debatir los temas de la violación a los derechos humanos, la agresión y ocupación de sus territorios, también la reparación de las víctimas de masacres como las del Naya y del Nilo.

Solicitan, además, la desmilitarización de sus territorios y la prohibición de las suspensiones de las fumigaciones de cultivos ilícitos en las zonas indígenas, a cambio de erradicaciones manuales.

El Cric propuso que la reunión sea en el CAM ante todos los participantes de la ‘Minga de los Pueblos’, pero hasta ahora la Presidencia no ha respondido si acepta.

Al llegar a Jamundí, los líderes y el alcalde de Cali, Jorge Iván Ospina, firmaron un protocolo de seguridad. Los indígenas se comprometieron a que la guardia evitará daños en los bienes públicos y patrimoniales. El Municipio, por su parte, brindará baterías sanitarias y la hidratación de los participantes

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Mongo says on Oct 26, 2008, 00:48:

That sounds like a personal attack to me. Mods?

"Here in Colombia, it's about adding life to your years, not years to your life." Brian Andrews

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Mongo says on Oct 26, 2008, 04:34:

Thanks Mods!

"Here in Colombia, it's about adding life to your years, not years to your life." Brian Andrews

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pobrecito says on Oct 27, 2008, 04:10:

It wa not a personal attack; it was an explanation of what "mongolien" means in french.
On your avatar it is written "mongolian".

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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pobrecito says on Oct 27, 2008, 04:14:

I think that trisomic is not an insult. It is an hereditary illness and trisomics are not responsible for being so.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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