Tu and Usted in Bogota

Philly says on Jun 25, 2008, 10:19:

Its quite simple. You only use tu for your wife of girlfriend and usted for everyone else. It is a firm rule where I live at in Colombia.

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 25, 2008, 10:31:

You can use "tu" for someone like a close family member or a friend. "Usted" is usually reserved for people you don't know well, strangers, business situations, etc. It is also sometimes used for your elders in your family or distant relatives, but that depends on how formal your family is. However, as you said, you will get different answers from different people. When in doubt, use "usted".

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billyb says on Jun 25, 2008, 10:40:

Ditto on CG's answer.

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bfree says on Jun 25, 2008, 10:56:

that's what is generally true in latin america, but i've found that in bogota men will often use Ud. even with their closest friends (indeed, especially with their closest friends)

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thur says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:11:

I'd definitely go with CG's answer. Among good friends, after the 'Tu' they might use the 'Usted' again. However, that's not because they started to be formal again...
Greetings,

- www.pbase.com/thur

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tasco66 says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:18:

Yep not an easy one, I was surprised when my GF used "Usted" with her father

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:18:

True. With your really good friends, you will sometimes use the "usted" form, but it hardly means respect.

Examples would be.

"Marica. Pase a recogerme!" or "Usted fue el que andaba llamando a joder anoche?"

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Philly says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:22:

My wife never uses usted with family, or even her parents and her parents use usted with her. My rule is the best!!! SORRY

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:28:

Well. You are not even Colombian and you live in Cucuta, not Bogota. You don't know what you're talking about. You did read the OP's question right?

Just because your wife's family doesn't talk that way doesn't mean that millions of other Colombians don't. As I said "that depends on how formal your family is". NEXT!

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bickerss says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:36:

If you use 'tu' instead if Usted - how rude is it actually ie for when meeting people or in semi formal situations?

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:39:

In certain circles, it is considered very disrespectful and uncouth. As a foreigner, you would likely get a pass. Someone might correct you in a nice way. If a Colombian acts like that in mixed, polite company, the reaction could be anything from nothing to a dirty look to a verbal reprimand.

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miamimike says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:39:

Here in Miami, everyone is referred to as TU. Abuelo, Padre, Papa ect. Easy,,,albeit not correct

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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romy says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:42:

Argentines and Uruguayos I've found are offended the easiest when you 'los tuteas'

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bickerss says on Jun 25, 2008, 11:42:

Thanks CG - what about for eg when meeting people in a bar ; maybe friends of friends - would you use usted?

Is it possibly akin to saying maybe ''whats up'' (or something similar) in the USA when meeting business people or parents of GF for the first time?

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 25, 2008, 12:08:

With friends of friends, it is probably best to use "usted" until you get to know them.

When meeting business people or your girlfriend's parents, you certainly want to use "usted". I still refer to my wife's parents and her other elders with the "usted" structure out of respect, but use "tu" with her brothers and sisters.

Using "tu" in such a situation would likely be seen worse than "what's up". "What's up" could be considered informal, but probably wouldn't offend anyone, whereas using "tu" in this type of situation could be considered very rude by some people. Again, it all comes down to an individual's preference and level of decorum, but it is best to err on the side of caution.

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Leeroy says on Jun 25, 2008, 12:14:

The tu/usted thing in Bogotá depends massively on the gender(s) of the people speaking. I have also spent many hours wondering and asking about the same thing - these are my findings so far:

1. Men who are friends/family will, on the whole, use "usted" with each other - as "tu" can be regarded as a little bit "gay".
2. But, foreigners and non-Bogotanos are a little excempt from rule #1.
3. Men will use "tu" with girls they are friends (and more with), and "usted" with older women to show respect - this system also works with women talking to men, generally.
4. Women will tend to use "tu" with most other women - apart from other women who they are very close to (like a sister or best friend), where they might use "usted".
5. Women will also use "usted" with older women that they want to show respect to.

So, a guy/girl in a relationship would use "tu" with each other. In fact, men and women generally will tutearse when talking to the opposite sex. In the case of extreme aggression and/or annoyance, somebody who is normally "tu" may turn into "usted" in this context.
Two male friends will use "usted" with each other, almost always.
Two female friends normally use "tu", but best friends might use "usted"
Whenever showing respect, both genders use "usted"
When wanting to appear generally friendly and non-threatening, but nonetheless talking to a stranger, a man may use "tu" with another man - but this is not often.

I do not pretend to be an expert, however - just last weekend I overheard a (female) friend talking to a (male) dog with "usted". I asked her why, and enquired as to whether a Golden Labrador was worthy of such an accolade - and she replied "He's just a fucking dog - he's not my friend, it's not like I'm going to use tu with *him*!"

In many countries, I believe, using "usted" with a dog would be the weirdest thing ever. But Bogotá is special in a number of ways, I guess...

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gamm2 says on Jun 25, 2008, 12:17:

is it ok to use tu with my boyfriends parents?.... its just so hard to use usted and remember how.... (im whining here)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 25, 2008, 12:24:

No........my mother-in-law would have stopped talking to me if I had said "tu" to her.
Maybe.... But that was another generation. Things change.
I don't know....perhaps I shouldn't have answerd at all.
Depends.... On the geographic location, gender, socio-economic status, age, and the level of familiarity.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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bfree says on Jun 25, 2008, 12:35:

thanks, leeroy! your explanation makes a lot of sense!

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Mononoke28 says on Jun 25, 2008, 13:25:

In Colombia most people will use USTED, so if you decide to use it you'll fit right in. There are some people who choose to use TU in Bogotá and most of the people in the Atlantic coast will do as well. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe... 85%-90% of the population use USTED

Diana

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LilaM says on Jun 25, 2008, 14:01:

¿Sabes la diferencia que existe entre "tu" y "usted"?.

Un pequeño ejemplo ilustrara muy bien esta diferencia.

El director general de un banco, se preocupaba por un joven director "estrella" que después de un periodo de trabajo junto a el, sin parar nunca ni para almorzar, empieza a ausentarse al mediodía.
Entonces el director general llama al detective privado del banco y le dice:
"Siga a Martínez una semana entera, no vaya a ser que ande en algo malo o sucio".
El detective cumple con su cometido, vuelve e informa.

"Martínez sale normalmente al mediodía coge su coche, va a su casa a almorzar, luego le hace el amor a su mujer, se fuma uno de sus excelentes habanos y vuelve a trabajar".

Responde el director:
"¡Ah, bueno, menos mal, no hay nada malo en todo eso!

Luego el detective pregunta: ¿Puedo tutearlo, señor?
Sorprendido el director responde: "Si, como no".
Y el detective dice:
"TE repito: Martínez sale normalmente al mediodía, coge TU coche, va a TU casa a almorzar, luego le hace el amor a TU mujer, se fuma uno de TUS excelentes habanos y vuelve a trabajar".

"You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don´t try" B. Sills

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MANFERBNB says on Jun 25, 2008, 14:19:

Nowadays it is common to use Tu among young people. Usted is used with older people,business, people you don't know very well, a police officer and your boss. Usted is also used most of the time for people from medium and low status. In higher social levels TU is very common.

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mimimimimi says on Jun 25, 2008, 14:23:

I actually use USTED to anyone when Im mad ...tu is for being gentle but thats me...

of course when someone from my family says to me USTED then i ask if he is mad or what i did wrong, it freaks me out to hear an usted from someone i know ahhaha

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cam0940 says on Jun 25, 2008, 15:09:

Everyone is Tu in my book after the first couple sentences. I used to get really caught up in this issue, but then I realized Hey, my Spanish is a hell of a lot better than their English. These people know I'm not from around these parts so it's actually good that I'm understood at all. As far a grammatical precision, fuck it. As long as you understand what I'm talking about. Think about it, how critically do you judge people when it's obvious that English is THEIR second language?

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cam0940 says on Jun 25, 2008, 15:12:

Lol, although that was a nice joke Lila, I just read the whole thread.

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paisa29 says on Jun 25, 2008, 15:15:

Es mas complicado en lenguaje paisa porque usamos TU,USTED y VOS. jajaja

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LilaM says on Jun 25, 2008, 15:22:

The answer for TU and USTED is easy:

TU: used for close people or friends
USTED: Boss, people that you don´t know, and people that you have to show respect and distance....


For example to talk to the Spain King, Mr. Felipe is Su Alteza, can you imagine... TU alteza ajjajajaj

"You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don´t try" B. Sills

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houstongal says on Jun 25, 2008, 15:41:

LOL Lila! That is a very funny joke!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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gargajito says on Jun 25, 2008, 17:07:

For me, Leeroy's explanation is very good indeed.
As paisa29 points out, many Paisas and especially Caleños use "vos", which has different verb conjugations to "tu" and "usted", for anyone wanting to learn more about "vos" I recommend watching "The Cartel" (probably the best soap opera I've ever seen).
Vos is also used in many other latin american countries, extensively in Argentina and Uruguay.
On the subject of Tu and Usted, it's not uncommon to hear the super-formal "su merced" in conversation.

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Lisa Zee says on Jun 25, 2008, 17:30:

I used to tell my students: learn how to use USTED..ONLY.
When you get better, you can use, tu, vos. Suerte.

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Philly says on Jun 25, 2008, 17:58:

ColombianoGringo, I would appreciate you change your tone when you are talking to me. You said the same exact thing I said but in different words. " In certain circles, it is considered very disrespectful and uncouth. As a foreigner, you would likely get a pass. Someone might correct you in a nice way. If a Colombian acts like that in mixed, polite company, the reaction could be anything from nothing to a dirty look to a verbal reprimand."
I guess you are one of those guys who has to get smart with people on the computer instead of face to face. It is okay, I guess it is tough being a chump. Anyone who calls themselves Gringo, does not deserve any respect

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vivifor says on Jun 25, 2008, 20:26:

I’m from Bogotá…… I ALWAYS use usted, to me tu just sounds weird. Tu is for friends and close people if you feel comfortable. I recommend you always use usted, if someone wants you to use tu, believe me they will let you know. I hope that helps!

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Dolfi says on Jun 26, 2008, 01:05:

Generally usted is used much more in Colombia than in any other spanish speaking country I know. In my wife´s family they even say usted to the cat ("Ud. ya comió, por que sigue maullando?).

In Spain tu is much more common; in Madrid the taxi drivers say tu to their lclients (at least to the younger ones).

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viajero123 says on Jun 26, 2008, 03:29:

Leeroy has got it. But that is for Bogota, every other region in the country is different.As a foreigner you are usually excused if using the "wrong" one.
I would add that there are a lot of people who interchange between usted and tu in the same conversation, and sometimes even within the same phrase. I've found this to happen mostly with people with lower education levels.

gamm2, do they tu or usted when talking to you? I would use whichever they use with me.
In Colombia it is important though to know how to use the tu and usted.

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dwmte7 says on Jun 26, 2008, 04:57:

the way i learned was if it's someone you know personally....'TU'....someone you don't know, usted.

dwmte

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Plato says on Jun 26, 2008, 07:03:

My family are paisas (Colombian-side) and they use usted all the time. The men use vos and hardly use tu. I use tu more than vos. Perhaps my family thinks I'm gay.

LilaM - nice one.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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gamm2 says on Jun 26, 2008, 07:20:

"gamm2, do they tu or usted when talking to you? I would use whichever they use with me.
In Colombia it is important though to know how to use the tu and usted."

viajero, Im actually not sure what they use with me, but I assume they use tu... but is it possible to have conversations where one person uses tu and the other usted. like maybe technically I should use usted out of respect to them, but they wouldn't use usted with me bcause im the girlfriend. hehe

I have noticed in two situations in the US where I start off using tu with people and they use usted with me and I feel really uncomfortable. I am a teacher and the parents of my students might use usted with me. Like I try to use usted when we first meet, but then after we meet I use tu, but they keep on using usted. Also in a restaurant where I worked - my coworkers used usted with me and I even was like why are you using usted???? I kind of get the feeling that this is an education level thing, but I hope Im not being horribly disrespectful using tu...

These were mainly Central Americans I believe...

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 26, 2008, 08:32:

Well Philly. If you post some nonsense like "My rule is the best!!! SORRY" when you are not even addressing the OP's question about practices in Bogota, you're likely to get called out. You were essentially discounting what everyone else posted just because your woman's family from a remote province speaks a certain way. For that matter, many people from Norte de Santander use "usted" when speaking to their elders. I should know since my grandfather is from Pampona.

As far as your opinion of me. Let's just say it couldn't possibly matter less. If anything, you are the one trying to play internet tough guy.

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Philly says on Jun 26, 2008, 11:37:

Lol ColombianoGringo, I guess I can let you slide. All of my wife´s family are from Pamplona, in fact that is where we were married. It is where I got my first legit job in Colombia. So, I guess we have a lot in common. I guess I am not use to people calling me out, its been a long time. Matter of fact, I have not heard that expression in a long time (been in Colombian too long). Peace

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ColombianoGringo says on Jun 26, 2008, 11:39:

Ha ha. Maybe we're related. Peace man.

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Mononoke28 says on Jun 27, 2008, 09:23:

I don't see how so many people are saying that using TU in Colombia is normal. I cannot think of one friend or family member who is always talking like that. I've seen it in Bogotá a few times but like I said, I really think most, not all, but most Colombians don't use it.

In fact, here's a fun thing to do. Every time a Colombian starts talking to you using TU, count the times he/she goes back to using USTED in the same sentence. It's hilarious, because they try and can't do it. They start off like this "Dianis, cuando vayas al banco le pregunta al cajero si te puede cambiar la dirección. Si le dice que no, entonces te vas a otra sucursal y haya le ayudan." Say whaaaaa fool?

Diana

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Lisa Zee says on Jun 27, 2008, 09:31:

Mononoke28 jajajaja! or we start with usted and end up with "VOS".

I NEVER EVER, had talked in Medellin with "TU". I have Mexicans and Cubans here that I talk with "TU" but it does not feel natural.

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Mononoke28 says on Jun 27, 2008, 12:35:

I hear ya Lisa. When I was younger I used to talk to my Mexican and other latino friends with TU because they kept saying they felt uncomfortable with me using USTED and it was weeeeeeird. Like a dog walking with shoes on. Now that I'm older I say "De malas, soy colombiana y no estoy acostumbrada a tutear". They laugh about it though but that's the way it goes.

And how about Colombians who type everything using TU and as soon as you get them on the phone or see them in person is all about USTED. Like... what changed dude? LOL!!! XD

Little bit of trivia, Diego Torres has always been a big fan of Colombia and how we always use USTED in everyday conversations. So that's why he decided to record this song with Vicentico. ¡Thanks viejo Diego!

Diana

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 27, 2008, 13:51:

When I moved to Colombia it was difficult for me to figure out when to use Tu and Usted, because the way it's used in Bogota is totally different from where I learned Spanish. Then I just realized I could forget about tu, call everyone usted and NOBODY would take offense, not even the golden labradors.

One of my favorite things in Bogota's Spanish is the ironic use of usted among friends when they're giving each other shit.

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Alma del Norte says on Jun 27, 2008, 20:52:

In Bogota, either learn to call just about everyone "USTED", or learn the hard way like me, and chop and change, whilst being beaten down with a barrage of "USTED" in reponse to your limp-wristed "tu". I am trying to reserve "tu" for close female friends and extranjeros. In the alternative learn "vos" but you'll still need the mighty "USTED" !

La vida es una rutina

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Alma del Norte says on Jun 27, 2008, 21:11:

Rubi, I'm sure even you will get beaten down eventually. It's remorseless!!! What's worse is the indecision, so I'm starting to get it - I give in!

La vida es una rutina

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billyb says on Jun 27, 2008, 21:21:

Don't worry Alma, as long as my good friend rubito gets beaten down before 2014, I will be happy. Even though by that time I might miss the pug ;))

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 28, 2008, 04:11:

bfree, unless you're in Bogota then you should master the art of usted and then afterwards 'tu' will come along. Generally speaking 'usted' is used when talking to people you hardly know, people who are way above you in the food chain, and formal encounters (judges, priests etc). In Bogota 'tu' is used a bit more loosely, but usted remains pretty widespread in professional settings.
I for one treat my best friends and sibblings using 'usted'...and if someone I don't like, don't know treats me as 'tu' I will politely remind them we are neither friends, nor related and I am not interested in making them comfortable.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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rocinante says on Jun 28, 2008, 08:07:

In Medellin if you can grab her ass without getting slapped or if she is a child in your family use Tu. Everyone else is Usted/Vos.

Two people here alluded to the pain in the ass Ud is.

In short:

The pronouns for Ud are a bitch for english speakers to use AND hearing verbs conjugated for Tu leaves no ambiguity as to who is being spoken about.


In long:

When speaking this is because Tu, Te and Ti are so much easier than Su, Se, Usted, Le, Lo and La and you don't have to worry about Leismo from your training. Every Direct Object, Indirect Object and reflexive is Te. Piece of cake - this is why schools never want to teach Ud. Everyone is tu. Anyone here attending EAFIT's program for foreigners? Ask the teacher if you can all use Ud instead of Tu and they won't do it - AND hardly anyone ever tutears in Medellin. Natives in Medellin would never call their teacher Tu, yet your 47 year old Spanish teaching professor will insist on it. Unless they are new and not aware of the can of worms they will open.

When listening there is never a problem knowing who is being spoken about when verbs are conjugated for Tu as opposed to Ud which can be you, him, her, it, the dog or an object or a concept. When someone 100 percent always speaks to you as Tu and you hear a verb conjugated for 3rd person you know they are talking about someone or somethng else. But when everything is conjugated for third person and no one uses subject pronouns you really have to pay attention otherwise it could be you, him, her, their mother or the dog.

To get by well in Medellin you have to know Ud and Vos even if you never use vos you will hear it frequently.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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houstongal says on Jun 28, 2008, 08:20:

LilaM's joke many comments above nicely shows the problem Roci describes in his comment. If you missed the joke buried in the post, here it is:

¿Sabes la diferencia que existe entre "tu" y "usted"?.

Un pequeño ejemplo ilustrara muy bien esta diferencia.

El director general de un banco, se preocupaba por un joven director "estrella" que después de un periodo de trabajo junto a el, sin parar nunca ni para almorzar, empieza a ausentarse al mediodía.

Entonces el director general llama al detective privado del banco y le dice:
"Siga a Martínez una semana entera, no vaya a ser que ande en algo malo o sucio".
El detective cumple con su cometido, vuelve e informa.

"Martínez sale normalmente al mediodía coge su coche, va a su casa a almorzar, luego le hace el amor a su mujer, se fuma uno de sus excelentes habanos y vuelve a trabajar".

Responde el director:
"¡Ah, bueno, menos mal, no hay nada malo en todo eso!

Luego el detective pregunta: ¿Puedo tutearlo, señor?
Sorprendido el director responde: "Si, como no".

Y el detective dice:
"TE repito: Martínez sale normalmente al mediodía, coge TU coche, va a TU casa a almorzar, luego le hace el amor a TU mujer, se fuma uno de TUS excelentes habanos y vuelve a trabajar".

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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rocinante says on Jun 28, 2008, 08:27:

Great joke. Except you should never smoke another man's Cuban cigars.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Jun 28, 2008, 08:27:

Es verdad, dos tipos tuteando en medallo seran maricas.

I was in a Colombian bar in NYC last week and I was talking to these three guys (Cali, Medellin and Puerto Rico) for a while and I knew the guy from Medellin was from Medellin because earlier I heard him telling someone. Now he was talking to all of us as Tu. Finally he asked me "De donde eres, donde vives?, tienes acento" to which I replied "Vivo en Medellin" He immediately switched and yelled "Usted no tiene acento paisa, si sos de medellin porque no tenés acento paisa!". I was dying (laughing to myself) how this guy went from tu to ud and vos in less than 2 seconds of speech and totally lost the Tu for the rest of the time. Obviously I told him "tranquilo parce nací en estados unidos eso es porque tengo esto maldito acento". We all got plastered and I fell asleep on the train and woke up in Montauk.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 28, 2008, 10:19:

You get away with it, buggy because you're a gringo.....

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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rocinante says on Jun 28, 2008, 11:35:

Ha!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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