Treatment of Black tourists from USA or England

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 2, 2004, 13:24:

Fine, I think My intuition is that racism in Colombia is more subtle and economic, not blatant prejudice. I don't think black tourists here would experience anything but hospitality.

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villdkatta says on Sep 2, 2004, 15:05:

Don't know.... but they should treat blacks like any other tourists; their money's as good as anyone elses, white, black or purple. :-) I have been called naive and idealistic, though. When I go to hoity toity places and people give me that look, I say inside, "Screw you, my money's as green as yours."

Elmo - do you think an American tourist should seriously wear all that name brand fancy stuff, though? Then he gets pegged as a rich dude and might have problems, too. I honestly don't know, just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Kim

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litost says on Sep 2, 2004, 15:24:

Just dressing nice (doesn't have to be brand names) and behaving politely should get you in anywhere.

Note: taking elmo's advice seriously is probably more likely to get you in trouble while in Colombia!

Sure, some people may look at a black person going into a fancy restaurant and whisper, but it's just that it's still a very uncommon thing in Colombia and it'll take getting used to. The country's own black population is only about 5% of the total, and it has been concentrated in specific regions away from the big cities and unfortunately in a very low income spectrum. I am sure most people would be nice, if you're unlucky and happen to meet someone from the small minority of racists, just shake it off and go about your things.

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r1ch1ee903 says on Sep 2, 2004, 16:00:

blk guy here hi all i'm blk and i have been to colombia more than 4 time i have always travel alone..........i dress normal, none of that name brand stuff like i'm from the getto, regular and casual and i have never once been treated with disrespect or looked at funny. how's my spanish ,well lets just say i get by... colombians are very friendly and always willing to help and try to understand what i am saying and help out as best that they can.........i have been to ctg baq and santa marta futher south i'm not sure about .
my 2 cents
richie

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r1ch1ee903 says on Sep 2, 2004, 16:02:

married did i mention mi esposa is light skin

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villdkatta says on Sep 2, 2004, 16:09:

Litost... good point, although I am certainly learning some colorful Spanish from Elmo......

I can't wait to go see Manizales. Will probably go within the year.

Kim

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r1ch1ee903 says on Sep 2, 2004, 16:44:

elmo i'm from nyc and depends on how my k1 and k3 visa processing goes i might be going back there in dec also,, let me know

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buzbeech says on Sep 2, 2004, 17:53:

Have never seen racism in Colombia When I was in Colombia in 2002. I met Miss Colombia and she was black. My best friend in Colombia is black and all of his friends are hispanic and they love him dearly. I am an old blue eyed, blond hair gringo, who has been mistaken for being German. I see no racism at all in Colombia, in transportation, restaurants, hotels, etc.

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litost says on Sep 2, 2004, 18:42:

elmo, you really should think about going to a psychiatrist to help you deal with all that resentment.

You insist on making everything in Colombia into rich vs. poor, white vs. black, costeno vs. cachacos, educated vs. uneducated, etc. Get over it already man, people don't come to this site to learn about our childhood traumas or insecurities, as funny as it may sometimes turn out, it gets old fast.

What happened to giving useful, insightful, impartial info here?

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ColombianoX says on Sep 2, 2004, 18:43:

Elmo,

I think it's about time you bury that grudge you have against wealthy colombians. I agree many are complete jerks, but not all of them.

To the person who's inquiring about the treatment of blacks in Colombia, don't worry, you'll be fine. In Colombia there isn't that animosity between blacks and whites as there is in the USA.


ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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stanmoonie says on Sep 2, 2004, 18:48:

Do us a favor!!! Hey elmodefoque

Do us all a favor go away... You have a major problem and it is with yourself. Why do you bother going to Colombia? you just waste everyones time when a real brother goes to Colombia to find himself a girl and everyone gives him a bad attuide because a clown like you has a chip on his shoulder. Why are you so worried about what anyone thinks about you? Grow up for once in your life...

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ColombianoX says on Sep 2, 2004, 18:50:

I agree with Litost. I am also tired of Elmo's divisive comments. Regardless of our economic status or race, Colombia is one nation, we're one people.

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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villdkatta says on Sep 2, 2004, 19:28:

Elmo, I think it's great to be socially aware, and you bring up some important points that are certainly worth remembering.

However - you can't assume no one here served their country and all went to study abroad, and make blanket statements like that. C'mon, dude, you have to see their side, too.

Kim

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villdkatta says on Sep 2, 2004, 19:30:

Saw your 2nd post... and, you have to admit, poor people do some nasty stuff, too. Bad people come in all shapes, sizes and colors: brown, white, rich and poor.

I am very sorry about your dog, though; that was horrible.

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stanmoonie says on Sep 2, 2004, 19:47:

your perro I did not remember until now but I think it was my family that ran your dog over.... we were driving around poor areas looking for a dog to run over, my father told me this was good sport... I was the kid in the back window. I asked my dad to throw you some pesos but of course being the rich pigs we were we just drove off in the dust laughing.......

Now to be serious do you think having your dog lick some other dogs balls really matters? My dog got ran over when I was a kid I was very upset but I did not let it ruin my life... my god look for another excuse for your bad behaviour. I do not look at people who are rich and think bad of them... I have better things to do like live my life... Let it go and you will feel alot better... about yourself...

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stanmoonie says on Sep 2, 2004, 20:15:

I don't want to bust your bubble but... When my dad smashed poor marcia flat as a pancake he wanted to run him over several more times but he thought you might throw a rock at us. I think you are wasting your time because I live in the U.S. now so don't waste your time. By the way he ran that little dog over because he licks other dogs balls.....

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heat says on Sep 2, 2004, 20:33:

interesting, interesting, interesting. this is the most interesting and amusing forum. thanks all.

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stanmoonie says on Sep 2, 2004, 20:36:

Yea I am the one.... Wow if my dad knew the results from him running that little mutt over he would have ran over some other little mutts too.... I cannot remember where he got your little mutt but I do remember we laughed pretty hard after... you should have seen the look on your face we could have put you on americia's funniest home videos. The only thing I did not like was my dad just took off in the dust....

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heat says on Sep 2, 2004, 20:45:

hmmmmm like i said before, this is a very interesting and amusing forum. i only got on it because i am fascinated by colombia. fyi - i am quite easy on the eyes w/ and w/o clothing however that is neither here not there. let's get back to colombia shall we?

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Roberto99 says on Sep 2, 2004, 20:49:

Thing won't let me post - I agree with ElModeFoque Man o man I had a big spiel going here and lost it all.

Got so worked up I forgot my usual style editing in
Word and the pasting and cutting so I would not have what
just happened to me happen. Gotta love it. I hate lemonade.
gives me hives.

Anyway, here's the best part that I can remember.


Wink and Nod to ElModeFoque:
{
Stay around I love yas.......
I means it.....
Just don't let them rich bastards keep you so upset, reacting, and
wasting energy. Seems like your doing that with all
the traveling on business your doing.
I understand everything your talking about. Orale!!!!!
Poor Marica, the sight of that little puppy being run
over would blight anyone's existence.
(Gee hope I'm reading you right here ElModeFoque, if not
just get that GUAJIRA machete and do me!!!)

Okay, I know next to nothing about Colombia, but it should be
obvious to anyone with an IQ higher than a snake's belly
that the Rich in Colombia have always been the problem, are
the problem now, and will always be the problem. AMEN.
Put Venezuelan rich in there too!!

They are so greedy they would rather see peons massacred,
wonderful young men serving their country blown up by explosives,
children kidnapped and held for ransom in oil barrels than to allow
the poor just a bit of the pie.

(Same old same old as in the Mexican/French/Russian revolutions. Didn't take long for the rich to gain control again did it!!)
Ya Ya, heard it all before. All their doing is trying to get
ahead, developing their country, suckin parasites.

New Russian billionaires breathing the same air as little old women selling their old moth eaten furs and knickers on the street for a few rubles. (What you say comrade??????)

Capitalism/Communism is just another word for powerful greedy people run amok!!!

The US/Europe stumbled upon a obvious law of nature. The most successful parasite does not kill it's host.
(God knows they couldn't have actually thought of it.
Had to be pure chance. Possibly a little 666.. Whaddya think....)

Many jobs are leaving the States ya'llll. Get ready to put your order for a Big Mac over the internet to someone in China/Vietnam/Cambodia. They will route it to the screen via tcp/ip (or that there new fangled thing, voip) if they can save one damn penny.

Walmarts are taking over the world!!! Yeah!!!!!!!!

Okay, I've got that other personality under control now.
He won't be acting up again soon, promise.

Anyway back to Colombia
I'm trying to get to Bucaramanga but hurricane Frances is being a bad girl/boy?
Who know Avianca's policy on acts of God?
Can't even reach em throught their 1-800 number.
Orbitz says my Avianca flight has been cancelado ededed....
Continental says no problem through 09/30/04.

Geez, one little gust of wind.....

Good discussions, people, community, help here, thanks bunches.

.... Marica's doggie angel

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Roberto99 says on Sep 2, 2004, 21:28:

Elmo de Foque Told ya I've been on this site lurkin...
Whatcha up to Brother Man Roberto99 .... Just Lurkin.....

WoooooooHoooooooo,
Continental just sent a beautimous phone call my way!!
No Avianca!! Out of the picture!!

They are routing me from Houston straight to Bogota,
as in no Miami. Straight shot! No 2 hour layover.
American never did that for me!! Scum...

Love ya Continental, besos, (with tongue)
Gee I'm in a nasty mood. I'm usually not like this you
know. Really. But I am on vacation, going to Colombia
and if the FARC get me, welllll, they will just have
to put up with me. No returns, I'll be soiled goods,
like shoes worn without socks.

Things are coming up roses, peachy keen, nifty, groovy,
like righteous dude.

I'll post some live pictures of the babes that are chasing me from
amigos.com. Whoops, did I say that out loud??? Sorry..

Really I'm okay, haven't hit my meds up for about a week
so they're going to my head.

Bye grass-ya-ass,
Please don't archive this, I'm blushing....
One crazy half Mexican signing off.......

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johncoltrane says on Sep 2, 2004, 22:14:

back to the subject i am a colombian born, half usa raised resident of colombia. Colombia is a very racist country. However, I have had more black friends here than I ever did in the US (1980 to 86, 1989 to 97), so go figure. Money talks. That's true. But the "Ugly Colombian" is mostly racist, however much he hides it.

Anyway, good topic to discuss..

Juan

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Christinalkc says on Sep 3, 2004, 03:58:

What about Yellow? Erm..... I never been told about the racism issues in Colombia. I have been raised in a country where racism is a main issue because Malaysia consists of the Muslims (60%) Chinese (20%) and Indians (10%) Since Malaysia is a Muslim country, there are some racial discrimination against the Chinese and Indians.

Anyways, I would like to know how the Colombians (be it black or lighter skin ones) view the Asians especially the Chinese looking ones. I know there are not many Asians in Bogota but I guess I need get myself prepared in a way as I will be going there in 3 weeks.....

Chaolin,
Ojitos

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pointofview says on Sep 3, 2004, 07:02:

Prejudice Alive & Well - Colombia I don't always agree with Elmo's descriptions and language but I do agree with his portrail of racial predjudice in Colombia. The comments by Johncotrane are accurate and true.

Litost: I don't know what planet you live on (certainly not Colombia) with your mis-statements about Colombia's black population only representing 5% of total Colomia population (absolutely false and inaccurate). You go on further to mis-state that the blacks are all concentrated (live) in specific areas away from the big cities. What a bunch of bullshit. Go back and study your facts.

ColombianoX: Yes Colombia is geographically and legally one country but with distinct classes of separate peoples some being excluded from fully participating in the economic pie for one reason or another. It's great if you are able (because of color or families economic status) to participate but not so good if you are not. The Colombia you know is probably more accomodating that the black Colombian knows where he or she is turned away from the same opportunities and employment doors that are closed to them but open to YOU.

There are other posts from Colombians that simply (for their answer) sweep this subject under the rug as if it doesn't exist. The truth is something different and it's ugly. Colombia racism is the USA of the 40s, 50s and 60s in the major cities of Bogota and Medellin. The central and municipal government(s) do not enforce the equal opportunity and equal treatment laws within Colombia. The racial prejudice doesn't come from the lower economic (strata) levels but rather from the higher strata levels that control employment policies and government at the highest levels of influence. I predict that there will be a major legal "class action" lawsuit filed by the black people of Colombia. Human rights advocates from many places (especially Colombia) are seriously pursuing this situation.

Just look around you for black faces in positions of power or management in Colombia in the central government or large employers. Call Conavi and Metro in Medellin and ask them how many blacks they employ. It's just the tip of the iceberg and the problem is too big to put under the rug. The racism is more like economic oppression as the uppper strata people would like to push the black people back to Choco, the caribbean or the sea hiring them as domestic help or construction labors. The lower economic levels are more accepting with the blacks as they share the same economic plight.

Getting back to the subject, Elmo is right that a black skinned foreign person reasonably well dressed will be received and treated well in Colombia (for the most part) but not every door will be open. I wasted a lot of my life learning that the color of ones skin has no bearing on their abilities, their honesty, their character and so forth. I am sure that everyone on this site feels the same or should. Any Colombian with racial prejudice views couldn't take them very far outside Colombia as they would wash very well in (Panama as an example).

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 3, 2004, 10:11:

Colombians racist? No, I don't think so, not in the sense as we see racism as an institutionalized discrimination of people on the grounds of the color of their skin. The 5% estimate is not far from the truth, since Colombians are not considered "black" if they are just a little dark of skin. Since most people are of mixed "race" the society tends to look at other aspects in order to establish the hierarchies: the level of education, wealth etc.
The Colombians of African descent are mainly concentrated in certain areas of the country, mainly the Atlantic coast, the Pacific coast and low-lying river valleys, like the Cauca valley; thus the city of Cali, for example, have a large porcentage of black population and even the major of the city is black, or very dark- skinned at least.
When my husband was a teenager one of his best friends was black. Granted, he came from an educated black middle -class family (father was a m.d.). They used to be really good friends and he'd hang out at my in-laws' all the time being well-received there. We had some good friends there too that were black, did go their wedding too, and maintained a good friendship for many years, even after they moved to Gringolandia, where they became a "Hispanic" instead of being black like in Cali.
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 3, 2004, 10:15:

Composición etnica Composición étnica colombiana: Mestizo 58%, White 20%, Mulatto 14%, Black 4%, mixed Black-Amerindian 3%, Amerindian 1% (CIA factbook

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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litost says on Sep 3, 2004, 11:43:

pointofview:

You really have some nerve talking to me the way you do, it is really starting to piss me off how some clueless pretentious foreigners come and talk to me about MY country, where I have lived most of my life and is MY culture and tell me they know more than I do. And I don't mean people like Desi, Shaz, Utopia, Daver, and most others who are very respectful and state opinions based on their experiences in a humble way, but then there are some jerks like you and this Robert99 who have never even been to the country or at most spent a short vacation there and think they can tell me a colombian what our problems are. Where do you get off???

Regarding the black population, as Desideria has pointed out all serious sources put the black population at under 5%, and you come out and call this "absolutely false and inacurate". Well please, do tell where you're getting your numbers because it looks like the one on another planet is yourself. And you go on to say that it's "bullshit" when I mention that most black people live in specific regions away from the big cities. Again, please tell us where the hell you get your stats, because it is absolutely clear as far as I as a colombian know that most black people live along the pacific coast, to a lesser extent on the atlantic coast and in the areas near Cali. Most of Colombia's population is concentrated in the andean region, where you see very very few black people, don't get angry with me just for stating it, it is a FACT. If you would actually know a little about my country you would know that in the Choco province, with a large majority of black population, the gov. officials and people in power positions will most likely be black, as well as the congressmen who represent them in Bogota (Piedad Cordoba, Maria Isabel Urrutia, Edgar Perea, etc.). But still, the proportion of black people in Colombia is far less than the one in the US, so it's really not fair or accurate to judge the situation based on what happens in the States, where they represent a larger part of the population, are spread out around the country, represent a considerable economic segment, and have an important presence in the cities.

Am I saying that there is no racism in Colombia? Of course not, there are always some intolerant people as in most countries which are dealing with multicultural societies, but it is not the general rule. As Desi very well pointed out, discrimination in Colombia happens more frecuently along economic or educational lines, and unfortunately black people in Colombia have historically been on the lower end in these aspects. There is much to be done in the country to correct this, and many other problems, I can tell you we're dealing with it.

If you're going to dismiss what I'm saying, which comes from someone who is colombian, loves Colombia, studied in Colombia, lived in a small town and big city in Colombia, has lived in Colombia most of his life, you just make sure to tell us where you're coming from.

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pointofview says on Sep 3, 2004, 12:18:

Litost and Desi Desi,

The last person I would disagree with on this site is you. I will post the statisical information upon which I rely upon when stating that the black population of Colombia is much greater than 5% (or 4%).

Litost,

My experiences are in Medellin for the past 5 1/2 years having lived here and owning a home. I have several close black friends here in Medellin including a black girlfriend all of which have high quality university educations here in Medellin. I have seen their personal mistreatment after they graduated and began seeking employment in Medellin. I have been close enough to the tears and emotional trama of employment rejection based upon skin color to form an opinion of where this is coming from.

Most all of my other friends are upper strata business people of whom I have asked countless questions and inquiries about treatment of black people in employment placement. I am damn sure of what I am talking about as it applies to Medellin.

I am not a foreign liberal or black advocate but rather a person who has lived under the USA flag in a community of 60% blacks, 18% puerto ricans and dominicans for six years and was treated very well despite my minority race representation so I only want to give back the same (even if I live in Colombia).

As I add employees in Colombian you can be sure that black people will be given preference. As to Choco I have been there (Quibdo) and nobody cooked me in their sopa de carne as I am alive and well. Sure the municipal political people from that region are black and some are not honest.

I absolutely would never beleive that Colombia's black population is 5% especially if the CIA say so but the ball is in my court to prove otherwise.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 3, 2004, 13:34:

point I'd like to see the statistics that'd prove otherwise. I don't usually disagree with you either, but on this one I have to go with litost. Not that I think of you as being "an arrogant foreigner" but because based on my own experience and a long-time follow-up of Colombia when I have not actually lived there I've never encountered any systematic racism in Colombia; however quite a few people with racist opinions and a society with multiple issues to resolve when regarding equality and democratic principles. Yes, I am a liberal, born and bred to it and bleed all over the place, but I don't consider myself a hypocrite.
Elmo: I don't usually refer to your posts since I have no experience of the world that you're coming from. I was not born in a wealthy family and am not a rich person now either, just self-supporting, and consider myself lucky not having been born in one of the poorer neighborhoods in Barranquilla. However, your black and white world is quite scary, and I do think you have some issues that maybe your therapist can help you with. That story about that little boy with a dog run over by rich people while they laughed has haunted me most of this day.
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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caslug says on Sep 3, 2004, 13:41:

The "ism" If you look at history of ALL developed countries(USA, Europe, etc.,), during their developing stage there was racism, sexism, nationalism, etc., going on. Every country goes thru it. Colombia is a developing nation and has those same issues.

Why are some people hung up on percentage of blacks in colombia? What does that have to do with discrimanation, intolarant or preduces? Are we saying that if there was only 1% black then it's excuses the abuse? versus say 10% black? Of course not. There's two main type of discrimination (institutionalize and personal). There's really nothing you can do about the personal preducices OTHER than expose them to other people & culture. Hopefully, they'll come to recognize that you should really judge people one person at a time. BUT the institutionalize discrimantion are harder to combat. And Colombia is doing it's best i'm sure. But to say there's NO institionalize racism in ANY country is false. Institionalize racism can be very subtle, ie charging higher interest rate because you live in a black neighborhood, not calling you in for an interview because of your last name, etc.,

I don't see that colombia/colombians show blatant personal racism(name calling, refusing service, etc.,) toward foreigners(tourist) interestingly friends tell me they see that type racism in "developed" nations like UK(london), Austria(Munich), Germany(Berlin). I'm asian-american, and everyone I met in colombia was friendly & helpful. I actually feel that quality of services(restaurants, shops, etc.,) in colombia is better than US on the average. Of course this is because my money goes a long ways vs US.

For most of us, maybe we haven't had first hand knowledge of racism or sexism. But by meeting people from other background, culture, or nation we hear there exp and stories. Maybe I haven't exp the racism that elmo has because of his background, but i would believe that happen. Just read your history or other nation's history. And you'll see stuff that happens. Just because we didn't see something personally, doesn't mean it's not true. How many of us have gone to the moon? But we know it's happened.

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stanmoonie says on Sep 3, 2004, 17:35:

Elmerfudd I was sorry but now..... You know something when my pappi was coming towards your little ball licking dog marcia I told him "Pappi there is a little ball licking dog in the road" after he back handed me he told me " Listen when you get older you will understand we must keep a firm control of those poor people and if that means running their perros over flat as a pncake then so be it". I felt real bad after wards but you know something? Everytime I go home I take my father's ashes and I go looking for some little begger to run his dog over. So when you go to Barranquilla and you see this big car cruising around your house it is me looking for a dog or maybe a cat if that is all to run over.

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Joe says on Sep 3, 2004, 20:44:

Colombians are definitely racist Hi buddies!

Yes, Colombian racism is subtle and not-so-subtle as some put it; Colombians are familiar, so racism can be mingled with paternalism and condescension. Funny thing, Colombians complain all the time of being victims of racism from the West, who wonders whether they live in trees. As Gabriel G Marquez puts it: "My fellow Colombians see themselves as blanquitos, but they are viewed as negritos by North Americans".

Something also that strikes aliens: Colombians bow and scrape in front of Westerners and would do everything to please them whereas they could not care less about their minorities and poor. This is something you won't witness in Brazil or Venezuela or Argentina or Chile, who are less Westerners' butt licking; they are more self-confident and do not beg the US for a couple of bucks. This has something to do with an Indian heritage ill-digested, even disregarded in Colombia, whereas it is obvious than 60-70% of the population is mestizo, which amounts to self-flogging and self-denial. But well, to each his own.

As ElModefoque hints to, Colombia is not one nation and I could not live in such a segregated country. Good luck to the African-Colombians and indigenas of this board. I would advise you either to stand up for your rights and fight or to emigrate to the US, which is a far more inclusive country. Once you have understood that fighting for your rights in the way of life in the US, you go from rags to riches or at least you live in decent conditions, whereas you are denied - by blood- such opportunities in Colombia; and if you complain, you are jailed or shot down.

Take it easy!
Joe

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mzzmerized says on Sep 3, 2004, 21:00:

El-Mo I think you're losing it Maybe during your upcoming trip back to your homeland you can look into hooking up with the local obeah-man or brujo and get some of those evil spirits cast out of your body...maybe you can come back a kinder, gentler modefoque...

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Rico says on Sep 4, 2004, 11:34:

There's a big difference... Colombians treat foreign tourists very, very well. It does NOT matter if they are black or asian, etc. With them, they are "color blind!"

Colombians save their prejudice for their own blacks, indians and mestizos. Even millionaire black baseball players are barred from some clubs and restaurants.

That's the way it goes!

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juanalejo says on Sep 4, 2004, 11:50:

????? Are we taking about the USA the same that up to now barely accepts mixed couples even on TV. A black with a black, a white with a white, and a latino with a latino, except if the latino is not to brown to mix with the whites? That really caught my attention when I had the fortune to study in Tennessee for one year and went for some training to Seattle and Boston the last two years. I was also so surprised to find out how people would talk about southerners in the other two cities. So racism has many forms even in the USA, upper class Bostonians were very funny with me when they found out I was Colombian, especially as I am quite white, but what can I do I am from Santander where lots of people are very white, rich and poor. I agree with Desi, it mostly has to do with money and education together, for those of you that lived in Medellin during the cartel times, you know how much trouble they had trying to become part of society because they lacked education, in Cali at the begining happed the same but with time they educated themselves and society began to forget what business they were involved in. My experience is that upper class, is upper class no matter which country you go to, and Americans in that sense are no different. I have a Mexican friend who lived in Chicago, and he was given so much trouble in his neighborhood he had to move out, even though he was an expat living there paid expenses, his upper class neighbors did not want a chicano and his family mixing with their own children. It happens everywhere.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 4, 2004, 12:01:

educated. wealthy Colombians "in the U.S. they have the same status as Blacks"
Not true, of course. As it happens, I have lived within the Colombian colony both Chicago and Florida, and the educated middle-class Colombians blend in and adapt to gringo culture easily. I know of one upper-class Colombian who gives Palm Beach Polo Club as his address inthe US...and it's not bs either. I know several others living in wealthy middle-class neighborhoods in Washington, San Antonio, Chicago and Miami.
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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caslug says on Sep 4, 2004, 14:59:

In US, things are becoming more & more segragated/prejudice based upon income than race or nationality. Not to say there isn't, it some areas it's more than others as juanalejo pointed out. In the larger cities(NYC, LA, SF, Chicago, etc.,) because of lots of people(of all color/nationality) moving in&out for jobs, things are more incoming base. In NYC they're a saying they call "lower class" people(any race), bridge&tunnel meaning people who live outside of manahattan(rich zone) and use bridge&tunnel to come in to work or play. While I notice in smaller cities or town, where they don't get that "immigration" it's sometimes still based on race or social class.
East coast cities(Boston, parts of NYC) can still be very class conscious because of lots of "old money" - kennedy's, rockafellers, etc., while west coast cities(seattle, LA, SF) are much less.

If a white/black colombian that is maid or gardener in the US, they will be viewed as lower income or poor while if they're your doctor or successful business owner they're view as middle/upper class.

They're IS prejudices in the US... The BIG DIFFERENCES is
1) is becoming more&more based on income not race,
2) it doesn't hold someone back from rising for poor to middle class to rich if they're either hardworking or lucky,
3) there are laws that ARE ENFORCED to protect&help anyone that is a victim by individuals or businesses. example, Dennis Rodmon(ex NBA Black player) very obnoxious&outrageous, BUT he has TONS OF MONEY, he bought a house in Newport Beach(VERY exclusive area) where houses or in the millions. His neighbors didn't like at all(not because of his race, but because he keeps throwing loud parties). But they couldn't do anthing other than having the police come by to tell him to turn the music down. Or if you assult someone and before or during the assult call your victim racist names, it's consider a HATE CRIME and you get extra years on your prison terms.

In US, it's not so much WHERE you came from, but WHAT you're doing NOW. Its' all about the NOW not the PAST.

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caslug says on Sep 4, 2004, 15:07:

should of hire a lawyer Juanalejo, your friend needed to hire a civil rights lawyers, they could have really stuck it to those racist neighboor. Your friend would have humbled them AND got BIG money from them(since they are upper class and have money to take). In the US, there are SOOOO many laws that protect someone from getting harrassed or abuse based upon their race, gender, sexual orientation, even weight. Chicago is a "OLD" city, meaning that there still some lingering prejudices around, versuses newer cities like Houston, Dallas, LA, SF, etc.,

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juanalejo says on Sep 4, 2004, 16:42:

Law Antidiscrimination laws exist in the US and in Colombia as well, but that is not the point, the point is that racism exists everywhere, that laws are there to try and control it and my friend was not going to waste his few years in Chicago as an expat going through legal procedings, while his wife and children were being looked upon, no money ever compensates that trauma. But back to the original question, in Colombia discrimination is usually based on money and education rather than skin color or nationality, which in my opinion is the problem in the US.

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caslug says on Sep 4, 2004, 17:31:

you're right juan, i was thinking that your friend was going live there for a long time years&years versus expat coming&going. I'm not sure what how the law protects exchange student, tourist, busienssman versus citizen & legal residence. So it's probably for the best your friend did what he had to do. That's very sad that it happen, my sympathies to your friend. Stuff like that makes me appreciate the hospitality that people show me when I'm in THEIR country visiting or working. Colombian friend that I meet in Colombia told me they told generally like americans at least the one they met. I told them that the americans that travel abroad is not a wide respentation of americans in the states. Just like all countries, there are american who are very tolerant or prejudice(like your friend unfortunately encountered). I hope he & his family meet "regular" american in that were friendly have helpful to him. Hate to see him think negatively of americans in general because of a few bad apples.

I guess in answer to the orignal poster, he'll have a good time in colombia regardless of his skin color. He may meet individual colombians(quite rare) who may treat him badly. But the majority of colombians he meet would treat him very decently. There's always a few wack jobs or bad apples in any society.

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litost says on Sep 4, 2004, 19:28:

Some of the people on this board might be "happy" to know that in Colombia there are millions of whites, some even blond and blue-eyed, who are dirt poor and also stand very little chance of getting out of poverty unless they manage to acces some kind of education. Take a tour of the rural areas of Antioquia, Caldas, Santander to see what I mean.

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villdkatta says on Sep 5, 2004, 06:24:

LItost... are the lower socioeconomic people you refer to ever allowed to emigrate to another country for education and then return to their homeland, if someone is willing to help them? How do they ever get out of this cycle? (I realize that maybe the answer is that they never do, which I find quite sad but probably true.)

Kim

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juanalejo says on Sep 5, 2004, 13:17:

Emigration During the late 1990´s and early 2000 hundreds of thousands of poor Colombians were able to emigrate to Europe until those countries decided they had too many Colombians and a visa was imposed for Colombian nationals, fortunatelly most of them are having very productive lives out there and now every holiday more and more of them came back with EU passports and money in their pockets to visit their families. Unfortunatelly now with the visas, it happens like with the US where mostly well off people are the ones who migrate causing what is called "cerebros fugados" as they are the better educated people creating a loss of productivity for the Colombia, contrary to low educated people migrating as they not only educate themselves, but also pay for the education here in Colombia for many of their family members. Now with in the last few years there has been a return of many middle and upper class Colombians back here, as for many is not easy to adapt to a new life, especially as many professionals end doing not professional jobs and this underemployment is not easy to swallow. Hopefully if the economy continues to grow here jobs will come backs and that trend will continue and as the developed nations continue to need unskilled labor, they will search for that instead of promoting skilled labor from countries like ours to do unskilled labor abroad. Kind of what Spain does with the peasants here who travel their every year to pick their produce.

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caslug says on Sep 5, 2004, 14:19:

Vildkatta, If your poor and want to immigrate to another country you have to get there first. That in itself is a huge barrier(finacial) so most of them usually go as a unskilled labourer and work to pay off their debt to the traffiker.

In the old days pre-WWII, US company recruiter would go to far off lands like Japan/PI/China to hire unskill workers to work in the US, in factories, mines, fields, etc., Europe did the same thing, except they had their colonies to draw upon for unskill worker AND raw material(which was a source of contention with the native population). In today's world South America is kinda left behind as the "cheap labor pool", Western European companies can either move low skill(some high skill ones too) jobs to Eastern Europe or hire immigrants from N. Africa. In US, we simply either move jobs over the border or hire an abundant of immigrants(illegal/legal) from china/mexico/etc., So for a poor colombian to tried to get into Europe or America (legally) it's very tough if not impossible as Juanalejo mention.

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caslug says on Sep 5, 2004, 14:26:

OH, if you can prove you are a political/religious refugee, then US/Europe will let you in AND give you funds to help you settle. However, you can't claim to be an economic refugee then'll just send you right back. Interestingly, I read that a cuban that gets in a boat and get himself to miami beach would be grant refugee status, BUT if the coast guard turns him back before reaching US shores, he'll be deported as an illegal immigrant just like chinese or mexican caught cross the US border.

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villdkatta says on Sep 5, 2004, 15:39:

That is so depressing... but I appreciate your honesty. I wish there was a better way to help move people out of a low socioeconomic status. Most "poor" people have an extremely high work ethic and it seems sad to just use them for cheap labor; why not educate them and break the cycle of poverty? I wish our governments could see that.

I grew up poor but it was a lot easier for me to move upward, comparatively speaking. I really want to try to help someone else do the same.

Kim

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poco says on Sep 5, 2004, 19:38:

Comments totally incorrect Almost everything on this thread is incorrect.

Figures from the -- CIA Fact Book, but,, others on this board know of this document and use it.

These are the numbers:
mestizo 58%, white 20%, mulatto 14%, black 4%, mixed black-Amerindian 3%, Amerindian 1%

There is a little truth here, most Black Colombians are concentrated outside the city or,, I believe I have seen the most around Cartagena. In some areas it is quite unusual to see a black person.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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KOMACHI says on Sep 6, 2004, 00:03:

black visitor No worries! I often heard the question of racism from other cultures. As bogotanian I answer no. There is no racism in Colombia. Maybe because the black population in Bogotá is low close to 0. I don’t know. I can’t talk for Cali, where I heard there is racism. There are thousands of blacks in the poor areas.
but as stated before not only "Choco" has people in the government, also "San Andres" all the political class are black, and my grandmas, little town in "valle" the major is black, a thousand little towns whose mayors and city hall staff are black, Cali is full or civil employees who are black...
I think some ignorant people (and racist themselves) if white or mestizo are poor is because the economy is bad, if black people are poor is because they are black. My father came from 0, his mom sold gasoline door by door to feed a bunch of kids. he was stingy as hell he never went to party he was awarded with honors in high school and he became a doctor, years and years of savings, even when I was a kid I remember he always told me the importance of saving and saving, as for today I have visited 23 countries thanks to him, I went to aviation private school (is no peanuts in Colombia) thanks to him my sister studied in one of the best university in Colombia,
And he owns some property, how?? Because he bust his hump he never bought a car, he never went to party, home job job home. Like a Chinese. And he came from a house where he had to fight a cookie with his brothers, no breakfast before school sometimes...
The real truth is that some Colombians like to party a lot. Go dance weekend, even they don’t have money; to buy a big stereo is very important. They don’t think in the future.
All I can say is that the black in Colombia are very kind. Whenever you look in their eyes you see humble and a feeling of peace. Opposite of the United States, at least the one I saw. Very friendly sometimes, but they have this racism inside them, and sometimes self pity in the way they look and talk.
As for the guy in here whose girlfriend is black and he lives in Medellin, dude she was not refused because she was black. I am sure if she has all the diplomas will be ok. I have been refused a billion times also; wonder why Colombians immigrate to the US? No job!! bro. She looks for a reason to feel sorry for herself. Like when in the school we think the teacher hate us. I thought the company sucks anyway when they didn’t hire me. That is very Colombian, a Japanese person will automatically feel he or she is not enough or does not have enough skills, an American will probably send a billion resumes and so on.
I think you just have to be the way you are, if you are a nice black fella you will be treated as that. If you have the cash you will be called "negro rico" and will get the royal treatment, if on top of that you are funny outgoing and friendly, you will make lots of friends, you want to make friends? You ask Colombians about directions... they can’t stand being asked something like that; they want to take you by hand and make sure you arrive. If you are an unfriendly, serious, stingy, person, that’s what you get. 0 nice treatments. That goes for me to. If I check in a hotel in Cartagena and I am rude, they will be not friendly to me. I don’t know about white gringo looking, because some Colombians still look themselves down besides a 6 ft white gringo. Not me, I have lived abroad enough and I can recognize who is white ghetto as well; the giant type white does not intimidate me no more. Same if they are nice I am nice, if not. Good bye!
And in Colombia and the USA and, and Asia and all over the world, if you have the cash you will be treated better, that is a fact.
Business is business. As for the Colombians... just joke around, joke around, be a kid and relax. We love that.



(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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Christinalkc says on Sep 6, 2004, 00:22:

komachi hi,
in previous post, you said you are bringing your korean japanese girlfriend to colombia. so how did it go? did she feel out of place? is there any discrimination?

I am an asian too and will be goin to colombia in less than 3 weeks for about a year. i juz wanna know how does an asian who doesn't speak spanish feels there....

chaolin,
christina ojitos

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KOMACHI says on Sep 6, 2004, 00:30:

we are still in france about the trip to colombia that will happen soon...

as black people i think asians has no beef with colombians.
i just think is hard for them.


(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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Joe says on Sep 8, 2004, 09:45:

check article on El Tiempo by D'Artagnan Yet another hint at Colombian racism towards people of African descent ... by a true hidalgo

http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/opinion/colopi_new/dartagnan/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-1789168.html

and tomorrow, those same Colombians will complain of gringos' racism against them, while they are sub-educated by Western standards.

For your information, no Colombian university is listed among the top 500 universities in the world, whereas Uni Andes brags about its "achievements"; search on El Tiempo website for a paper on this (one month back or so) and check the official ranking on:
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm

Joe

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KOMACHI says on Sep 8, 2004, 12:45:

another hint of the power of newspapers while they are sub-educated by western standards??... or maybe far east standards??
That ranking was made in china... hemm, let me tell you somenthing about china...
i give you an example. my fiancee is from a city called okayama in japan, based on this ranking okayama university, which is the size of my primary and junior high school(i've seen it) and whose pupils were never or had won a nobel prize could fit in the 200-300 rank. why? because china sees japan as we sees the United states, big, great... that doesnt meant all things in there all the best and great... How come no university in south america fits in those rankings? do you think bandeirante of brasil (world's third aircraft maker) or petrobras (world's leader in oil and gas in open waters) workers and engeniers all graduated from harvard?
chile? are they that sub educated? how about colombia? i dont know about Andes but i do know really smart people from "la nacional"

i was impresed also about d'artagnan's article! what does it has to do the incident with doping, and racism? that is racist. a person who would imagine what would happen if that happen to a black person is because this person is racist . she was white and lost the medal, same is she were black... what they were suposed to do?
burn a cross of wood infront of her house? there is no difference she would have lost the medal too.
that never happen, he just imagined... just because he imagined somenthing it does not make the whole country racist.


for the record, he is not that "Hidalgo"


(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 8, 2004, 13:03:

the article I thought that the racist argument in the article was rather tenuous also. I have said this before and still think that Colombia is not a racist society. There are plenty of racist people in Colombia, but thaat's nothing extraordinary or even worth a discussion: there are plenty of those everywhere, and Colombia is not an exception. As my dear departed mother-in-law used to say: " Some people have blamed me for being a racist, well, I'm not, it's just that I have never especially liked the blacks".
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pointofview says on Sep 9, 2004, 05:48:

Colombia Black Population Real Count Colombia’s colour-bar

“But there aren’t any blacks in Colombia!” exclaimed a Colombian now living in New York after hearing the ethnologist Luz Riviera discuss her recent research into the country’s black indigenous communities. “What do you mean there aren’t? They’re over 22 percent of the population,” replied Riviera. “If there are, then they aren’t Colombians,” insisted the lady.
Luz Riviera tried to explain that the seven million blacks now living in the country are not only as Colombian as her, but that it was also highly likely that she had at least one black ancestor. “God save me from having a black in my family!,” the aggrieved woman replied.
As in other Latin American countries, racism towards blacks and indigenous peoples is a fact of life in Colombia. And just as in other countries of the region, victims of this racism tend to be “invisible” in the eyes of those who practise the discrimination.
Black slaves were introduced into what is now Colombia by the first Spanish conquistadors. From the very beginning they clustered in communities largely along the northern coast close to Cartagena, the principle “black port” of the era, as well as on the western Pacific coastline and the Caribbean archipelago of San Andrés and Providencia.
The “Afro-Colombians”–as they are officially known–also live in the country’s big and medium-sized cities, such as Cartagena, Buenaventura, Cali, Turbo, Barranquilla or Medellín, places where their segregation takes on all the features of marginalization. “In Cartagena, the only blacks who can enter certain clubs and restaurants are those who are serving. In Bogotá and Cali, most domestic servants are black, often dressed in pink uniforms,” explains Luz Riviera.
Over time, continued discrimination has led many to setting up home in rural, isolated areas, where they live in virtually self-sufficient communities working on small land-holdings or as employees for large farms. Some simply live on the fish they can catch.
Life in such communities is not much better than in other parts of the country. According to the Third report on the Human Rights Situation in Colombia, carried out for the Organization of American States and published in 1999, “a disproportionate number of blacks live in conditions of extreme poverty.” Afro-Colombians inhabit some of the most conflict-ridden parts of the country and earn incomes below the national per capita average. Illiteracy rates both in rural and urban areas remain extremely large, while black communities suffer high rates of infant mortality and serious diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, gastro-enteritis and lung infections. The report puts this down to a lack of drinking water, electricity and basic medical services.
Faced with their exclusion from the rest of society, many communities continue to co-operate closely with groups of indigenous peoples, with whom they first formed links under slavery when blacks were forced to work in gold and silver mines while Indians tilled the land. Luz Riviera has studied these inter-ethnic relations in an isolated village on the banks of the Guayabero river in the region of Serranía del Baudó.
“Thirty or so black families living there have created ritual family ties with indigenous families living deeper in the jungle. What frequently happens is that an indigenous person asks a black man to be the godfather of his son, sealing a relation of compadrazgo [joint fatherhood] which helps make the lives of both families somewhat easier in light of the discrimination both suffer.”

http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Colom99en/chapter-11.htm

2. Domestic Legal Provisions

8. Article 2 of the Constitution of Colombia of 1991 in its second paragraph declares:

The authorities of the Republic exist to protect the lives, honor, property, beliefs and other rights and liberties of all persons residing in Colombia and to ensure compliance with the social obligations of the State and private persons.

9. Article 5 states:

The State recognizes, without any discrimination, the primacy of the inalienable rights of human beings and supports the family as the basic institution of society.

10. Article 7 states:

The State recognizes and protects the cultural and ethnic diversity of the Colombian nation.

11. Article 8 holds:

It is the obligation of the State and individuals to protect the cultural and natural wealth of the Nation.

12. Article 10 provides:

Spanish is the official language of Colombia. The languages and dialects of the different ethnic groups are also official in their territories. The education provided to communities with their own linguistic traditions will be bilingual.

13. Article 13 states:

All persons born free and equal before the law, will receive the same treatment and protection from the authorities and will enjoy the same rights, freedoms and opportunities without discrimination of any kind on the basis of sex, race, national origin, or family language, religion, political or philosophical opinion.

14. Article 17 asserts:

Slavery, servitude and the sale of human beings are prohibited in all their forms.

15. Transitory Article 55 says:

During the two years subsequent to the date on which the Constitution enters into force, the Congress will issue, after study by a special commission to be created by the government a law which grants to the black communities that have occupied undeveloped lands in the rural riparian areas alongside the rivers of the Cuenca and Pacific, in conformity with their traditional systems for production, the right to own as collective property those areas which the law designates.

Representatives elected by the involved communities will participate in the special commission established in the preceding paragraph.

The properties recognized in this manner will be inalienable, pursuant to the provisions of the law.

The same law will establish mechanisms for the protection of the cultural identity and the rights of these communities and for the support of their economic and social development.

16. Finally, in order to implement Transitory Article 55, Congress enacted Law 70/93 "Law of Black Communities", which will be examined more fully below.

C. NEGROES IN COLOMBIA – 1998

17. Maurice Glele – Ahanhanzo, Special Rapporteur of the United Nations on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance, in his 1997 report entitled "Implementation of the Programme of Action for the Third Decade to Combat Racism and Racial Discrimination" estimates that of a national population, persons of African or mixed African descent total six million individuals and constitute about 16 percent of the whole Colombian population.( 5 ) Afro-Colombians, a term employed more and more frequently by black or partly black Colombians themselves, live primarily along the Pacific and Atlantic coasts and form majorities or sizeable minorities in a number of large and medium sized cities, including Cartagena, Buenaventura, Cali, Turbo, Barranquilla, Medellín and Quibdó.( 6 )

18. The Colombian Government has published, on the basis of a 1993 census, a much smaller estimate of the number of black and native Colombians—some 930,000 or 2.75 percent of the whole. In its Action Plan for the Afro-Colombian and Indigenous Population, a Government agency reported that together these populations constitute roughly 3.2 percent of the national population—some 1.1 million persons in all. Finally, the consulting group, Cowater International Inc., in a 1996 study commissioned by the Inter-American Development Bank, using a broader definition of the term afro-Colombian, estimated that black Colombians constitute some 30 percent of the national population. ( 7 )

D. DISCRIMINATION

19. Irrespective of the number of persons of African descent, partial or pure blooded, it is beyond dispute that black and mestizo black persons form the largest minority group in the Colombian nation. Furthermore, there has been in recent years a most welcome recognition by the State at all levels, and by and large, by society as a whole that afro-Colombians have suffered racial discrimination and that such discrimination persists to the present.( 8 ) In fairness, however it should be pointed out that such discrimination does not constitute a conscious policy of the State.

20. During its on-site visit to Colombia in December, 1997 the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (the "Commission," the "IACHR" or the "Inter-American Commission") heard numerous testimonies evidencing active and passive discrimination by State and private actors alike. It is important to point out that complaints made by black Colombian citizens and corroborated in various sociological studies in recent years, refer to both a pattern of official as well as unofficial, discrimination. With respect to the latter, offensive stereotypes in the media, the arts and popular culture tend to perpetuate negative attitudes towards blacks and these often unconscious views are commonly reflected in public policy when governments at all levels distribute limited State resources. ( 9 )

E. SOCIO-ECONOMIC CONDITIONS

21. Hence, the Commission has received ample documentation demonstrating that black Colombians have, perhaps with the exception of the Colombian indigenous population, the lowest per capita income, extremely high rates of illiteracy in both urban and rural areas, very high indices of infant mortality and serious diseases including malaria, dengue fever and gastrointestinal and respiratory infections. The causes of this situation include the frequent lack of potable water, electricity and medical facilities. ( 10 )

22. The employment picture for black Colombians is likewise bleak. Urban blacks, the majority of afro-Colombians, far more often find themselves in domestic service, day work construction job and street vendor activities in the so-called informal sector than their white fellow citizens.

23. In rural areas black Colombians frequently labor on tiny farms or as workers on large ranches and plantations. Yeoman fishing on a subsistence level also provides employment to a considerable number of blacks. ( 11 )

24. In contrast with this reality, there is a marked dearth of black Colombians in middle and high level government and private sector positions. Blacks are rarely commissioned as officers in the military forces, and aside from some cities and towns where they enjoy an electoral majority they are underrepresented in elected and appointed positions in government. A similar generalization can be made regarding the paucity of blacks in other branches of government as well as the civil and diplomatic services. It has also been observed that the Catholic Church, the predominant religion in Colombia, also has relatively few priests and nuns of color and fewer yet within the ecclesiastical hierarchy. The same phenomenon is observed in business and the media where the absence of blacks is the general rule. White collar jobs in the liberal professions of medicine, dentistry, law, the natural and social sciences and education at all levels, have historically been closed to blacks except the lucky and persistent few.( 12 )

25. Not surprisingly, government investment in infrastructure, health, education, housing and general welfare have been very low in areas inhabited primarily by afro-Colombians.

F. VIOLENCE AND BLACK COLOMBIANS

26. Large numbers of afro-Colombians reside in some of the most conflictive areas of the national territory. While this subject has been examined at length in previous Chapters of this Report, it is safe to generalize that terror and violence as practiced by all of the contending forces in Colombia have taken their greatest toll on the Colombians living in extreme poverty—a disproportionate number of whom are black citizens. For example, the Commission in its visit to Turbo and Apartadó, in the Urabá region of the Department of Antioquia, learned of the ferocious consequences of the struggle among armed dissident groups, mainly the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Fuerzas Revolucionarias Armadas de Colombia - "FARC"), and paramilitaries commanded by the Castaños as well as the active and at times passive role of the Army in repressing local populations. The Commission was able to observe that the majority of the internally displaced persons populations residing in shelters and camps in the area consisted of black persons.

27. The Commission has also been told of instances of apparent "social cleansing" in which black prostitutes and street gamines have been assassinated. In some of these incidents, the victims may have been targeted, at least in part, on the basis of their color.

G. GOVERNMENT ACTION

28. In adopting the 1991 Constitution, and in particular, in sanctioning Transitory Article 55, cited above, the Colombian State took a positive step to begin redressing the historical ill-treatment of black persons in Colombia. In 1993, Congress enacted and the Executive signed Law 70/93 which established within its National Development Plan the Plan for Afro-Colombian Development (the "Plan").

29. One of the most salient features of Law 70/93 includes the creation of a special constituency to assure two seats in the National Congress to black communities. In addition, the Law recognizes the right of black communities to collective ownership of some riparian lands on the Pacific coast. Further, the Law recognizes subsoil rights thereon and the need to provide further resources to fulfill the constitutional guarantee of education for all citizens.

30. To implement the Plan, Law 70/93 contemplates the formation of autonomous territorial planning councils and regional assemblies. Community involvement and participation by those whose interests are at stake are important ingredients in the Plan. Thus, community organizations have the possibility of making their views heard and taken into account through this arrangement.

31. While there has been criticism of the definition of an afro-Colombian as provided in the Plan, thereby explaining perhaps the discrepancies in the demographic data referred to earlier in this chapter, greater discontent stems from its slow implementation and its as yet negligible impact on the lives of those intended to benefit from the Law.

32. Be that as it may, the formal recognition of centuries-old injustices and the establishment of mechanisms to fix goals and monitor fulfillment of the Plan are singularly important steps in a process. Even the most optimistic recognize that this process includes very ambitious goals that will require a long time to realize.

33. The State has informed the Commission that the National Development Plan 1998-2002 proposed by the Government of President Pastrana provides for special consideration of the needs of the black communities. According to the State, the efforts of the Government will be directed toward overcoming the obstacles that impede the full integration of the members of these communities into Colombian national life. They will also be directed at those obstacles that prevent the black communities from raising their standard of living.

H. RECOMMENDATIONS

Based on the foregoing, the Commission makes the following recommendations to the Colombian State:

The State should accelerate the implementation of the Afro-Colombian Development Plan, particularly in the demarcation of collective community lands with the corresponding protection of the timber, flora, fauna and mineral resources found therein.

The State should enact a law defining and providing legal remedies for acts of public and private racial discrimination.

The State should enhance, among the general population and among those in public service, particularly in the police and Military Forces, awareness of racism and its effects and to provide necessary educational programs and training for this purpose.

The State should take special measures to assure equal access to positions in public service to persons of all complexions.

The State should assign more fairly State resources to areas populated primarily by black Colombians with emphasis on such basic goods and services as roads, potable water systems, electrical power, health facilities and educational institutions.

The State should vigorously investigate, prosecute and punish those, who for racial motives, commit crimes against persons of color.

Here is another link worth reading that investigates and discusses the race issues in Colombia.

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/TestFrame/7423a67b0d09c20d802566d3003ade9c?Opendocument

COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
Fifty-third session
Item 13 of the provisional agenda


IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROGRAMME OF ACTION FOR
THE THIRD DECADE TO COMBAT RACISM AND
RACIAL DISCRIMINATION


Report by Mr. Maurice Glèlè-Ahanhanzo, Special Rapporteur on
contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination,
xenophobia and related intolerance

Addendum

Mission to Colombia

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pointofview says on Sep 9, 2004, 07:24:

Good Post Caslug I am willing to surrender that there is plenty of "disputed" (but existing) information on the web to support the claims that the black population in Colombia is 5% or 4% but that estimate appears to rise from a Colombian census that many world organizations (previous post) have taken issue with.

Other agencies using broader terms defining Afro-Colombian have estimated the popoulation as high as 30%. Several other links post the total black population in Colombia at 6 to 8 million. As others have said it really does matter but I do not beleive the population of blacks in Colombia to be anywhere near the 5% (or 4%) figure that the Colombian government (or CIA) has advanced.

Further I believe that Caslug had posted the most accurate post on this thread (including mine) in his (or her) description of insitutionalized descrimination vs. personal descrimination. After giving this matter a lot more thought I feel that this description of insitutionalized descrimination may more accurately describe the primary descrimination that exists against blacks in Colombia combined to a lesser extent (still significant) with personal discrimination mainly in higher strata levels of Colombian society.

QUOTE:

The "ism"
Author: caslug | Date: Fri, 09/03/2004 - 16:41 | reply to this comment

If you look at history of ALL developed countries(USA, Europe, etc.,), during their developing stage there was racism, sexism, nationalism, etc., going on. Every country goes thru it. Colombia is a developing nation and has those same issues.

Why are some people hung up on percentage of blacks in colombia? What does that have to do with discrimanation, intolarant or preduces? Are we saying that if there was only 1% black then it's excuses the abuse? versus say 10% black? Of course not. There's two main type of discrimination (institutionalize and personal). There's really nothing you can do about the personal preducices OTHER than expose them to other people & culture. Hopefully, they'll come to recognize that you should really judge people one person at a time. BUT the institutionalize discrimantion are harder to combat. And Colombia is doing it's best i'm sure. But to say there's NO institionalize racism in ANY country is false. Institionalize racism can be very subtle, ie charging higher interest rate because you live in a black neighborhood, not calling you in for an interview because of your last name, etc.,

I don't see that colombia/colombians show blatant personal racism(name calling, refusing service, etc.,) toward foreigners(tourist) interestingly friends tell me they see that type racism in "developed" nations like UK(london), Austria(Munich), Germany(Berlin). I'm asian-american, and everyone I met in colombia was friendly & helpful. I actually feel that quality of services(restaurants, shops, etc.,) in colombia is better than US on the average. Of course this is because my money goes a long ways vs US.

For most of us, maybe we haven't had first hand knowledge of racism or sexism. But by meeting people from other background, culture, or nation we hear there exp and stories. Maybe I haven't exp the racism that elmo has because of his background, but i would believe that happen. Just read your history or other nation's history. And you'll see stuff that happens. Just because we didn't see something personally, doesn't mean it's not true. How many of us have gone to the moon? But we know it's happened.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 9, 2004, 09:49:

just a couple of things... point of view, I see that you have researched the topic, which is good. However, I do still believe that this information ( study) is made from a non-colombian angle. Some of it is anecdotal and lacks any scientific value, whatsoever. (In Bogotá and Cali, most domestic servants are black, often dressed in pink uniforms,” explains Luz Riviera.) I've never seen pink uniforms on black maids in Cali, only white, the same color as the uniform on any color maid including white.
So, it would be safe to say that there is no institutionalized racism in Colombia. There's legislation to see for that matter. On the other hand, there was never any doubt that the black population in Colombia weren't among the very poorest and least educated in the country, that's something we have agreed all along. That the government has failed to provide protection, health service and education to the black communities of Chocó and the rest of the Pacific coast (departamentos de Valle, Cauca and Nariño)is an undeniable fact. That does not, however, constitute a premeditated act of racism from the government, nor are the black communities singled out for not to receive help, support and benefits. The indigenious communities of the far-lying departamentos are just as poorly attended.
Another reason for the discrepancies in the estimates of the black population in Colombia is, as the article points out, the fact that in Colombia a person of mixed blood is not automatically considered black. It's a matter of interpretation, by large. A very dark-skinned person with indigenous features (for example: straight hair) is not classified as "black". The racial classifications tend to be very informal and mainly based on direct observations and subjective categorizations than any clear-cut directives. Thus, my both very white, blue-eyed and blonde children are stated as "trigueño" in their cedulas. We had been swimming a lot before taking the pictures!
Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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caslug says on Sep 9, 2004, 14:16:

Thanks for your comment I generally agree with previous poster that said discrimiantion is more social-economic than race. Racisim & discrimination are two yet different things, although sometimes they go with one another. In the US(liberty loving people that we are), it's well within your right have your own personal belief and you can be with people with those belief.

Desi, if you mother-in-law was in US, I would see no problem with her stating her racial views, that's her right and opinion. However, if she doesn't give a black employee a job, promotion or raise BECAUSE of that prejudice then it's becomes DISCRIMINATION. Everyone of us have or individual prejudices but most of us don't let it affect our dealings with strangers, co-workers, or customers. But unfortunately there are some that do, IN ANY COUNTRY.

I'll give you a personal example, when i was leaving cali to go back to USA. After showing my US Passport I proceeed thru the security check got thru, then heard a security supervisor tell another security guy in spanish "check the CHINO again", NOT check that guy or american. Eventually, I was check THREE TIMES, it was like the supervisor couldn't believe I didn't have anything. Now, I have no problem with them being EXTRA cautious with foreign nationals, but thought it was odd they would bring up race instead of nationality. Interestingly, when I got to US Custom at miami, I was let thru without a second glance. BUT US Custom held a few young colombian women traveling alone for additional questions. What both US & Colombian security was doing is called "profiling", difference was that US custom did it subtle while Colombia custom was more direct about it.

Do I think Colombia is very racist? NO. Actually Colombia seems to have less racism than Asia/US/Europe. Is there discrimination in Colombia? YES, but it has to do more with gender/social/economic than race. But to say that there is NO racism or discrimination in Colombia OR ANY country is a little naive. Beside, if there is no racism or discrimination then why is there even laws written about discrimination or racism?

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litost says on Sep 9, 2004, 19:58:

pointofview:

I recommend you take a look at who are the people flipping burgers, sweeping stores, and all the other lowest paying jobs in the developped countries... let me know what you see!

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KOMACHI says on Sep 10, 2004, 01:54:

racism is a disease Anybody who went to school everyday and did homework in Colombia...
dtch dtch, no coping it from your buddies in the morning... no. that honestly did some homework knows about the percentage of black in Colombia... is well above 30%
and that fact is well known after Vanessa Mendoza won the miss Colombia title in 2000... (a beautiful black girl),
but anyway... as stated before what doest it has to do the number??
even if only 5 blacks in Colombia or a million it won’t change anything.
let’s see this report paragraph...

27. The Commission has also been told of instances of apparent "social cleansing" in which black prostitutes and street gamines have been assassinated. In some of these incidents, the victims may have been targeted, at least in part, on the basis of their color.



is that a report?? "APPARENT Do you know how many problems we have??
do you really think people focus on that?

I think racism is a disease is spreading all over the forum now... this people posting and making reports inventing things that never happens... or lets say happens but has noting to do with the color...
PLEASE there is no relation in being poor and black. you are where you want to be. I am poor as hell, I count the daily buck. and soon when I go back to Colombia I might be in the same situation.
and I am so proud that I don’t ask money to my folks...
but I will have to basically "beg for food" with friends and relatives... but because I am not black everything is fine?
do you know why blacks don’t come to Bogotá? to study? although my sister had black classmates they complain about the weather.
as somebody said before... the eat what they fish... yes my best friend's roommate is from cartagena... his father watch TV from 9 am until 4 pm then he goes do some errands and come back to seat in his hammock until 11pm. my best friend's roommate fiends from childhood and neighborhood just play cards and dices all day long, for dinner they will go fishing and get some plantation and mangos, 1000 pesos for 15 mangoes... or as they say all you can grab for 1000 pesos... why they would bother to come to other cities to pay rent bills look for job and son?? all day talk nothing but bullshit and they are all in their 20 to 27's, this is a peaceful way of live... and if some gringa comes to interview them they will just go and blame the government. that there is no job and no hospitals... and do you think is only there???
it happens everywhere in Colombia... not only they get sick... Indians and mestizo whites also... diseases can’t recognize the color of the skin.

""Special Reporter of the United Nations on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance"""

I don’t think the average Colombian know what the hell is hate related crimes or xenophobic... I tell you I did not know until I went to Canada, and I was 20.

is hard to live in the city, you have the fiscal rackets and in the farm you have the guerilla. black people get killed because they are black? how about my ex girlfriend uncle or mine? they are no black.
this is so ridiculous... is like here in France... all this French are so in love with the FARC, even Chirac ask Uribe to send all the guerilla in jail to France, the average French will tell me how bad Uribe is and how sorry they feel for the guerilla movements..
I just can’t stand this people. why? because FARC has commission people all over Europe making propaganda and the French just fell like dumbs.

if you want to say they got killed for money I admit that.
because we Colombians don’t know the value of working for something together... is only me and me and me.
if they don’t have what they have is because we love to blame somebody else and we don’t recognize our mistakes, we are maybe lazy to Europe standards (although I don’t think so) we might be corrupt, we may be love easy money... but
no no, we don’t hate our blacks. Some people don’t like them I guess. I love them. I pride myself of black being able to joke about other colors and other colors about people’s body characteristics without getting whacked.


ah! some people are so racist...

hey caslug! you might have notice they check you a lot. lately a group of Chinese are sending illegal immigrants to usa with drugs they are Chinese and comes from Ecuador...that might be one reason, the second a bunch of Chinese also got caught with Colombians near Costa Rica, same reason, you are foreigner, and some foreigners have been cheated, they have been asked to take friends packages... they want to make sure you don’t get in trouble, cause in Colombia you get caught you spend 2 max in the can but in the USA that is serious, and also many foreigners think because they are foreigners they wont get checked as Colombians, but in fact some foreigners get more checked than Colombians.




(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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Joe says on Sep 11, 2004, 11:06:

at least 30% of Afro-Colombians The percentage of people of African descent is well above 30% in Colombia, once you add the mulattos to the non-mixed Afro-Colombians, compared to less than 1% in Argentina and Chile and more than 70% in Brazil. Just go outside of Bogota and Medellin to check it out.

For some reason, Colombians hide this fact and want to see themselves as Caucasians, and are outraged when they are looked down upon as negritos in America and Europe. On top of that, Colombians tend to despise Venezuelians for being mulattos, whereas they complain about Argentinians and Chileans who scorn them as ignorant mestizos and savages. The representative Colombian literally hates Argentinians. One of the first questions I am asked when I take a cab or address someone for the first time is whether I am Argentinian: There is a sigh of relief when I say no, and the conversation gets on another mode. Go figure!

One of the main reasons why the FARC is so popular [viewpoint of the average joe, by definition] lies in this discrepancy [not to say schizophrenia] between the ethnic reality and the vantage point of those would-be Caucasians. Acknowledging being mestizos (which does not mean bastard!) and mulattos would solve many Colombian problems. Just my two cents.

Joe

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pointofview says on Sep 11, 2004, 12:55:

Litost Quote:

Author: litost | Date: Thu, 09/09/2004 - 22:58 | login or register to post comments

pointofview:

"I recommend you take a look at who are the people flipping burgers, sweeping stores, and all the other lowest paying jobs in the developped countries... let me know what you see!

Litost:

If you think blacks or people of color are the only ones flipping burgers or working the low paying jobs in deloped countries, then you must be smoking something different. Neither race nor color cuts accross dicates who works this low paying jobs."

Only an estimated 2-3% of blacks in Colombia are able to financially obtain a higher education from a good Colombian university. The families and relatives of these students pool their financial resources together to send them to Medellin, Bogota or Cali (as an example) to obtain degrees at quality universities. Then with an education and degree in hand the apply for a job that they are qualified to perform and told they cannot he hired because they are black. I am not guessing but rather I have personally witnessed it.

You asked me to provide a little backgound of where I am coming from. I provide (and have for years) financial "tuition assistance" to black students (currently 48 students in three countries) and I see what comes out the other end. The racist treatment of blacks by numerous major public and private employers in Medellin makes me sick at my stomach. This treatment exists only because the government(s) (central and municipal) take no action to correct it and the blacks are not organized on there own to pursue an appropriate remedy.

At least in the developed countries the black would have an opportunity to pursue any career but in Medellin the gates are closed to most (not all) significant employment oppportunities but they are open to you (right).

I am not saying (and have never said) that this predjudice exists within the Colombian society in any of the lower strata economic level peoples maybe only increasing as you step up to the higher strata levels. Rather, what I have witnessed is outright employee rejection, for even level entry employment (of numerous black peoples), based soley on a persons color. That policy emulates from somewhere and it targets the blacks (probably others as well).

This is my last post on this subject (on this site) because I have already said probably too much because of my strong feelings on the subject. This is a deep seeded problem for the Colombians to straighten out and I am nobody just a foreign observer. All any of us can do is live our life treating all people equally as we would want to be treated ourselves.

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litost says on Sep 11, 2004, 13:24:

I think this discussion has just spiralled away from its original question, and it's like we're talking about different things. My posts have been, in general, with the original question in mind:

"Can anyone let me know how Colombians in general view blacks from the USA or England when in Colombia?"

I and others have given our impressions, that, in general, they will be well treated as long as they dress nice and act themselves in a respectful way.

You are obviously very well documented and involved in the issues of equal opportunities for afro-colombians, that is a DIFFERENT THING. Is there racism in Colombia? Yes of course there is, and of course it should be battled agressively by the government and the society, and I commend you for looking out for blacks' rights... but I don't feel that colombians are any more racists than northamericans, europeans or other latinamericans. As Desi has pointed out very clearly, the difference in Colombia is the large economic and educational gaps that exist, and I would add the perception it creates that all black colombians are poor. And as far as my comment about the people who work in low paying jobs, I just talk from experience of living in Miami and in Paris, I clearly notice how in the first it is all blacks and latinos, and in the latter blacks and arabs.

JOE: The criminals of the FARC are not "popular" by any of the word's definitions... where do you get this?

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pointofview says on Sep 11, 2004, 13:38:

Litost Well I think my first post on this thread taking issue with some of your comments was not well founded so I will leave it at that. We might not agree with how many blacks live in Colombia or where they live but I beleive all of us see things from the right (same) perspective.

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KOMACHI says on Sep 11, 2004, 15:57:

i want to share my feelings
today I am so sad because I discover I am not Caucasian, I cried all morning, thanks Joe for showing me the light, I better tell my family and friends... I must show them the right way...
I better stop asking people who speaks funny Spanish if they are from Argentina. ( you might be one ugly dude like me (maybe not that much i am really ugly and bald) because if you were as handsome as they are they wouldn’t doubt you are from Argentina. ask any lady what do they think about guys from Argentina you can see how their eyes roll and their mouth starts watering, same goes for the girls... mama mia!!)
Hey, we make jokes about Argentina people, like they make for Gallegos ( people they think are stupid, but in fact they are not)
Doesn’t American make jokes about Canadians and vice?
But if you can’t understand the joke or take it as an offense you have some complex dude! I think that is the essence of the beauty of not being racist; like they say (sorry for you)

And I also want to share that the mono jojoy has his fan club on the internet and I have bought all his posters, they have some pulling in Colombia!! You wouldn’t believe it!

that’s it, I am done in this forum topic, there is now way some people who were born in racist type society will ever change, just leave those ideas back home please!

I just hope the forum continue its original track

do we hate venezuelans and chileans and the world? what a race we are nasty colombians we are!! we are soooooo bad.... yes ! we are so bad!!!

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 11, 2004, 15:57:

ok you guys are discussing about two different things. First of all, point of view is talking about systematic discrimination of blacks when applying for jobs in Medellin. Second, litost is saying that racial discrimination is no worse in Colombia than anywhere else in the world. Third, Joe is saying that Colombians want to see themselves as Caucasians and that the demographic figure is much blacker than what we got from other sources.
By golly, I think you all have right!

First. I object to the application of the gringo concept of black regarding the demographic constitution of the population of Colombia. People of mixed race (i.eg. zambo, mulatto, mestizo etc.) are not black. This is the Colombian standard, not that of the United States of America.
Second. Litost is both right and wrong. Racial discrimination is well and alive in most western societies. Colombia is no worse than most others. People flipping burgers do, however, also come fromthe lower stratas of the society, regardless of color.
Third: where did you get that idea (Joe) that the Farcs were popular? As far as I know, they're hated by almost everybody, even the militant left of Colombia (former members of M-19 and the Unión Patriotica).
Cheers, Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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litost says on Sep 11, 2004, 16:14:

Desi, I made the flipping burger comment only because it was being said how maids, construction workers, etc. were usually black in Colombia... which isn't true, the same goes for the US and Europe, they aren't all blacks or immigrants of course because in some areas there aren't very many of them, but in the large cities I've lived in like Miami and Paris it is a fact that most people in lower paying jobs and poorest neighborhoods are black and/or immigrants.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 11, 2004, 16:50:

yes the Swedes would rather collect unemployment than clean toilets or flip burgers, but there is a great number of working -class youngsters flipping burgers here, many of them white as milk. But in general, of course, you're right. Racial discrimination is well and kickin' all over the western hemisphere.
cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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caslug says on Sep 11, 2004, 18:43:

Everyone posting so far is pretty much in GENERAL agreement, that there's racism & discrimination in Colombia, BUT it's no more or no worse than in other similar countries. As a student of US & World History, I hypothesize that countries with racially diverse population will go through a period of prejudice & racism, before they become more enlighten society. Blacks were brought over to North, Central, & South America AS SLAVES. Which is the original root of prejudice against blacks, and some of that still lingers today. In this century there are still some people that think blacks or other oppress people are inferior. And use that ignorances and prejudice in hiring practices or other form of discrimination.

The big difference in quality of life for poor people in US or Colombia for instances, is the amount of level of opportunity to move upward via education and employement opportunity. I'm not saying that US is a utopia by any means, just that there exist more opportunity for those poor people that are HARD WORKING & SMART. In the US, a poor but hard working student CAN get finacial aid to allow them to goto the same school as rich students. Once they graduate, employers will rarely care what there family or social background was when making a hiring decision. The key is good paying jobs, so in US if you're qualify, MOST of the time, you'll get that job. Of course there still some discrimination, but a GUARANTEE YOU it's still better than the rest of the world.

Litost, you mention that you have decent paying job in Miami, better than if you stayed in Colombia. So apparently your US company didn't care what your skin color was or family or social background. Look around, your community, there's probably latinos, blacks, asians, whites in all sort of field from medicine to finance and the wealth in Miami is not concentrated in one particular race.

For those of you that been to or lived in France, tell me do you see a lot of North African or blacks in management position in SIGNIFICANT numbers as the US? Probably not. What about Germany? They have a large number of immigrants.

It's too bad we are preaching to the choir here, everyone is fairly openminded and probably has LESS prejudices than average person regardless of nationality. The people that should be reading this forum are people like POV mention that turn down job applicants based on skin color or social background. I commend POV for taking postive action not just talking about social injustices. It's people like the poor family that pool there resource together so one person in their family can be educated AND employers like POV who either overlook prejudices or give a helping hand that makes society better.

A US civil rights leader once said,"it's not who you sit down with, but who you stand up for.." as measure of a person's character or morals.

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caslug says on Sep 11, 2004, 23:32:

What r u talking about Desi? (First. I object to the application of the gringo concept of black regarding the demographic constitution of the population of Colombia. People of mixed race (i.eg. zambo, mulatto, mestizo etc.) are not black. This is the Colombian standard, not that of the United States of America.)

Desi, I guess if you want to be exact, then the west(ie, US, Canada, england, germany, etc.,) loosely define, "black" as people of african or african descent. And I guess this is what topics is about. So if any of the mixed race people you mention have any african "blood" in them, then they can be call black. Look at the US actress Haley Berry, she's fairly light skin or how about an albino of african descent, do you think he/she would consider themselves "white/caucasian"? Beside, "Caucasian" refer to the Caucus which I don't believe Western Eurpean feel that is the place they came from.

If we really want to dig deep into gentics, the first human came out of africa, then migrate to middle east, europe, asia, north america to south america. So we should really consider ourselves african then, right? With the advance of genetic research, they did test in the US couple of years ago. They tested the genetic make-up of a high school class in a US City, the test students were "white- blond blue-eye", "black", "latino", & "asian". You know what they found?...

The kids that had the most in common(genetically) was the "white" AND "black" KIDS! Not "black w/ latino or asian".

Or another reason not to use the term "black", because here's a little known but SAD fact.

"blacks" were slaves brought over FROM AFRICA to work in the fields of the "Americas, North, Central, South, & Carribean". The European masters(spanish, portugese, french, & english) more often than not took advantage of the women slave which produced "mix" children, which mated with each other or other "full blooded" slaves. Does anyone think Michael Jordan(basketball player) ancestors had a last name of Jordan coming over on a slave ship from Africa? So the "Black" or African Colombian are more likely than not have some european(plus indian) blood in them. Might be hard to believe that, huh? Well here's another historical tid-bit... Thomas Jefferson, US President AND writer of the "declaraction of Indpendences" which had the line "all men are create equal". He had a slave as a mistress after his wife died AND produced a daugther (Sally Hemming), but to his credit he did free his slaves in his will.

Desi, I consider you a well meaning person who I believe is caring and considerate. So I hope you think upon these tid-bits of info regarding race. By the way, I generally think issue of race is full of SH$T, because WE ALL are the same species(homo sampien). Race is a something that semi-recent(last 400 yrs) gov't & society have used to justify one or differentiate one citizen from another.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 12, 2004, 01:41:

semantics and statistics "Desi, I guess if you want to be exact, then the west(ie, US, Canada, england, germany, etc.,) loosely define, "black" as people of african or african descent. And I guess this is what topics is about. So if any of the mixed race people you mention have any african "blood" in them, then they can be call black"
That's exactly what I was talking about. There's a difference in the way people use the terminology when referring to ethnic background. In the USA "black" or the more politically correct term African-American is inclusive, in Colombia exclusive. Thus, the vast discrepancy in the statistics. That's the point I was trying to make. The word "negro" is not a peyorative in Colombia and refer only to the people of pure or almost-pure African ancestry. All these other people of mixed ethnicity are NOT included in the demographic statistics.
There's a vast difference in semantics when talking about racial issues in Colombia and the US.
Thank you for the enlightment (since you felt I needed that).

BTW. I also consider that there's only one race, namely the human race (homo sapiens) that populates this planet.

Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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KOMACHI says on Sep 12, 2004, 05:10:

racist racist racist
we are all homo sapiens!!! you are so right!!!!!!!!

my chinita just call me monkey all day!!!!!!!!

we all belong to the same monkey...
recist racist racist racist!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cause you see the black, i am like a dog when i see people...
cause i am monkey!!!!!!!! racist racist racist
(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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juanalejo says on Sep 12, 2004, 15:44:

Imported Prejudice I agree with Desi in that Americans have something about race, that can not be applied to Colombia. We Colombians thinks far less about ethnic diferences, we have lots of mixed couples all over the country, more mixed with blacks in the Caribbean Coast where there is a very strong black influence and less in other areas, which might be mixed with indians etc. My father was 1.85 m tall, blond, green eyes and very white, my mother is more indian looking, and me and my brothers have a little bit of both. Yet nobody in my family that we know of is anything but Colombian. When I was in the US I had to write down my race at the University (which came as a surprise) and was allowed to write Latino as according to them I was, but my brother was not allowed, he had to write down caucasian as his eyes are green and to them he did not look latino. We both have "trigueño" written in our cedulas as we have exactly the same color. And then I would get the typical reply that I did not look Colombian, of course I don´t as I do not look like the typical mafia man as pertrayed by Hollywood. We are a very nicely mixed race (plenty of threads around here to prove it), with problems in long forgotten rural areas and their population, which unfortunatelly happens to be black and indian all the way back from colonial times (many of our governments to blame for that bit). Now don´t tell me that Blacks and Latinos in the US, Indians and Pakistanis in the UK, Aklgerian and Tunisians in France, Turks in Germany, Morrocans, Ecuadorians and Colombians in Spain, occupy percentage wise the same number of high level positions in companies and government as "whites" beacuse they don´t. So please to all those that have a problem with race, please leave it in your country as in Colombia with all the social and economic problems we still have to solve the last thing we need is to spark racial tensions where they don´t really exist. Discrimination in Colombia, yes and lots of it, but it has to do education and social manners, easy to correct if we had the money, but as we don´t it is a complicated problem. My grandfather was a farmer, my father a merchant and me and my brothers the first in the family to go through highschool and education. Yet I have never felt discriminated in my country, I do not have a family background with titles and that has never been a problem. The only time I have been discriminated is when I travel, when we arrive into the US and Europe and find officials at the airplane door ( not even at the inmigration desk )who stop me and my fellow Colombians just because of we carry a Republica de Colombia passport.

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Joe says on Sep 13, 2004, 05:56:

indigena in the spotlight You can check on El Tiempo of today (13 Sept) the picture of an alleged sexual abuser, suspected but not convicted as of yet. I guess there would be no such pic should he had more "acceptable" features ...

http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/bogo/2004-09-13/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-1793290.html

Cheers,
Joe

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juanalejo says on Sep 13, 2004, 07:06:

Joe I took the trouble of reading your posts and I think you are the one that has some kind of a racist problem, especially against Colombians, you are probably the only one who even thought about the guy in the picture today as indian, as for me he looks Colombian. I am very sorry you feel that Colombians bow to Europeans and North Americans, you probably have never seen how we treat Argentinians, and Peruvians and Mexicans and Venezuelans , but I can assure you it is in the same way, we may have a rivalry against Venezuelans our neighbors just like Canadians and USA or Argentinians for football, just like Brazilians do with them too, but besides that we like making foreigners feel welcome, just like in Santander we welcome Costeños or Rolos, or in Medellin they welcome me or Caleños. You really have no idea what Colombia is all about,I am very sorry you have lost your time when in my country, especially when you consider D'artagnan a true hidalgo when he has defended with his life the most corrupt president of all the corrupt presidents in this country (Samper). It is very sad to see you feel comfort in saying that no Colombian Universities made the top 500, without even reading how they were rated, and how important nobel winners and research counts in that rating, something financially unavailable in most third world schools, not that our universities use the available knowledge to provide first quality education. We know what Elmo´s problem is, and we are trying to help, maybe you should tell us yours and we will also do our best.

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KOMACHI says on Sep 13, 2004, 09:38:

joe How did you like the last post?
Ouch!! You got yourself a nice "BLACK" eye.

Yea kiddo! Why don’t you tell uncle komachi what is wrong with you?

But I have to warn you I look more Indian that that dude from the picture,
Is that ok?

Hey! Black from England or black gringos... just go to Colombia.
There is no meaning trying to explain here by words how nice we are. Just we are; no matter what a bunch or racist people say.




(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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gabriel says on Sep 14, 2004, 02:58:

much less In my opinion I saw much less racism in colombia than in the U.S. especially in Cali, but a lot more poverty among the black population. Colombian tend to be for the most part very warm and loving people, really never experienced any racism whatsoever and I'm a black panamanian that lived in Colombia for about a year. It was funny because a lot of the Colombian that I met still thought of panama as a department of Colombia.

Oh one more thing that I need to correct is that, colombia's black population is not 5% but 24-26% approx. 11-12 million colombian are of african decent.

Yerba mala nunca muere....

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