tirofijo tiene cancer / tirofijo has cancer

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 24, 13:13:

According to El Tiempo, the scumbag leader of FARC is dying of cancer. Good!

cassini77 says on Jan 24, 13:26:

Are you human beings or animals?

Colombiche (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 13:28:

I am not surprised about this news. The FARC is behaving like a monster without a head and none of its parts seem to be in sych with each other. Just look at how erratic ther behaviour was when freeing the hostages.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 13:31:

Aouuuu! (or however a wolf howls)

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 24, 13:33:

Tertius,

Yo si decía que por algo me caes bien.

Peter (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 13:38:

I'm not usually bloodthirsty, but I sincerely hope he dies a long and painful death.

Poor but snappy

cassini77 says on Jan 24, 13:38:

You are not animals but worse.
Even European people become hysterical on this forum.

Rob77 says on Jan 24, 13:40:

Animals are more humane than the FARCe. Don't insult the animals!

May they roast in hell for eternity!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

cassini77 says on Jan 24, 13:44:

Forget paramilitaries and their collective graves, militaries and their massacres, Uribe and his friends narcos.
Poor world, poor Colombia, you will never see the end of violence put perhaps you love violence.

Rob77 says on Jan 24, 13:49:

cass, I can't speak for the rest of the Our Gang here, but I don't see anyone making excuses for the paras or trying to paint them as saints.

They are all evil and deserve to die a 1000 deaths. I'm always dissappointed that Colombia has never had the balls to face down the church influence and impose the death penalty on these scumbags, both FARCe and the Paras. It's hard to even consider them human - they are closer to sub-human.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 24, 13:52:

"I'm always dissappointed that Colombia has never had the balls to face down the church influence and impose the death penalty on these scumbags, both FARCe and the Paras."

My thoughts exactly. It is a travesty that the paras are getting off with light sentences.

Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 24, 13:55:

Sure Cassini, Europeans have never acted hysterically or violently in the past, right?

With regard to the original news, it's rare that I say someone deserves something like that, but Marulanda certainly doesn't earn my sympathy.

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 14:33:

Oops. I just realized that my joke might have been misinterpreted... I was referring to the boy who cried wolf. I think Tirofijo has died about 12 to 15 times. He'll eventually be buried, like everyone else.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 14:45:

I'm with Cassini on this one, I don't want Sr. Marin dead. At least not if he is still suffering severely. I want that suffering to go on as long as possible.

cassini77 says on Jan 24, 14:47:

Poor beast. You not Marulanda.

catherine b says on Jan 24, 14:53:

Notice how Cassini never refers to farc (known kidnappers, murderers, terrorists, child abusers, narco trafickers, rapists, etc) in unflattering terms? Never once a negative adjective to describe his precious farc. But when it comes to anyone else we're "animals" "beasts", etc, etc.

billyb says on Jan 24, 14:55:

I'd rather be a beast than be like your idol marulanda. beasts are noble creatures.

slguy says on Jan 24, 14:56:

Our beloved cassini proves the old adage about a village somewhere missing him....in this case, a french village.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

billyb says on Jan 24, 14:56:

I think his village had more than its share.

slguy says on Jan 24, 14:57:

claro- it's a village in France, isn't it? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

catherine b says on Jan 24, 15:00:

Assuming he does have cancer, I wonder if in his most agonizing moments of pain he remembers the thousands of victims throughout 45 years who begged him for mercy.

Rob77 says on Jan 24, 15:28:

I like to keep an open mind. I respect that there will always be liberals and conservatives. And that each will have a different idea of how to manage society . . .

But, these groups, they are not legitimate political groups. They are motivated by greed and power, and consider absolutely nothing scared, not family, women, children, nothing! They are heartless SOB's who delight in their killings. Animals are more decent than these criminals.

They deserve not one ounce of pity. Execution would be too kind. Marulanda deserves to be strung up by hooks through his fingers, fed bread and water, and allowed to die as slowly as possible, while the families of his thousands and thousands of victims pass by, spitting on his slowly rotting, yet living corpse.

Nah, that scenario would be too generous!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

ColombianoGringo says on Jan 24, 15:34:

"I wonder if in his most agonizing moments of pain he remembers the thousands of victims throughout 45 years who begged him for mercy."

I hope he is in too much pain to think. In any case, I doubt that such an animal has a conscience. He has certainly never displayed one before.

Rob77 says on Jan 24, 15:41:

Both the FARCe and the Paras leadership are an aberration of human evolution. They were born without essential human attributes, like a heart and a concience. Their extermination is in the best interest of humanity.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 16:05:

I tend to stay away when the hyperbole starts shooting off the roof but, c'mon! However evil Marulanda, Mancuso, Rito Alejo del Rio, the traquetos, and all the people that have plagued Colombia with violence are, they are the product of Colombian society. WE created them. They are a reflection of us. I'm not condoning their behavior in any way. All I say is that we should take a good and honest look at ourselves and see how we allowed these people to have the power that they have. Otherwise, after Marulanda dies for the 16th time, another Marulanda will take his place.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

podborski says on Jan 24, 17:36:

as usual, I couldn't disagree more sr t. 'Society' does not create people, nor does it determine their actions. Individuals have free will and decide to be good or evil, it has absolutely nothing to do with some vague collective called 'society'.

Apart from a small number of insane psycopaths, people choose to be evil. To try and shift the blame to innocent, law abiding people is pathetic.

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 18:30:

Would you say, then, that the fact that people tend to be surrounded by others similar to them is merely a coincidence? What a happy fortuity that we're born among those that share many of our values, interests, and habits! Should I presume that I freely chose to enjoy salsa music, and that I was just lucky to be born in the middle of LatAm? Moreover, many around me seem to share that luck! And such chance seems to run also for choice of religion, moral codes, and favorite pastimes.

I am deeply convinced of the usefulness of concepts such as free will and responsibility. Their naive misuse, guided by a self-righteous and manichean obsession to attribute blame on everything... that's the sign of the truly pathetic.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 18:44:

"They are a reflection of us"

Not even close. Colombia may be fucked up in many ways, but these people don't represent the vast majority of us. There are fucked up evil people in all societies and they in no way represent those societies, some people are just messed because they just are.

podborski says on Jan 24, 18:55:

whether or not you learn to enjoy salsa music due to your environment is totally irrelevant (not to mention trivial) to the concept of choosing to be evil or not.

I know a colombiana who hates salsa, despite growing up with it, yet I first heard it in my 20's and love it. It's obviously a matter of personal choice/taste.

My parents are deeply religious, I am an atheist. My parents are conservative, I am liberal.

Clearly you know there are literally billions of examples like that, so I really don't know what you are trying to say.

Either people have free will or they don't, there is no other option, although sounds like you must think there is?

Yes, things are black and white, good and bad, and I'll put blame for the bad on those responsible, every time, and be proud of it.

Just as I am sure you will continue to apologise for the worst among us, as if it is somehow somebody else's fault.

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 19:06:

"some people are just messed because they just are."

Yes, some are, but they usually don't amount to much. The only way they become powerful is because the rest of the people around them allow it.

I don't know what you mean by "representation." When I said that they (farcos, paracos, narcos, etc.) are a reflection of us I meant that they are not a fluke, and not that we are all like them. The "law abiding" guy who bought his computer in El Lago, or whisky in San Andresito, probably contributed to narco and paraco money laundering; that doesn't mean that he is a narco or a paraco. When "law abiding" citizens approve that their compatriots get poisoned by fumigations, they are contributing to farco support. I could go on. The problem is best described by Francisco Thoumi who is, btw, the only thinking person that has convinced me that, even without US pressure, it would be a bad idea to legalize drugs in Colombia.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 19:25:

"a reflection of us I meant that they are not a fluke, and not that we are all like them. "

Thanks for the clarification, because to me a reflection, by its very definition, is a reflected image of something.

Lisa Zee says on Jan 24, 19:40:

Carma, carma, he will die in pain. Imagine dying of cancer in the the jungle?! probably en una amaca,con zancudos y un calor humedo el H.P!. Oh we get what we deserve!. His poor soul will have to come back many times over, poor soul!. Oh maybe he will reincarnate into a "secuestrado" some other place in another world!!!!???!!!

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 19:46:

It was probably a poorly chosen word, but I think you get my drift now.

My point is that you can't rationalize our problems by just blaming the "bad guys". The "bad guys" are just a symptom; the problem runs much deeper. It can't be a coincidence that, with a fully functional State (we're no Afghanistan or Rwanda), we are such a magnet for illegal activities. Thoumi's hypothesis, that the root problem is the absence of a consensual rule of law (not one that is impose, but one that is deemed legitimate), seems very reasonable to me. As Mockus demonstrated during his tenure as Mayor of Bogota, this is a problem that is not impossible to solve, but that requires us to realize how we contribute to the bad things that happen in our country.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 19:58:

I understand the point you are making, but how does fighting against injustice ever lead to becoming a monster commiting atrocities a hundred times worse than anything that ever occured to you? That is not caused by society, but instead by the inherent evil of that individual. No cause, as just as I might might percieve it to be, would ever lead me to chain an innocent person by the neck to a tree in the jungle for ten years, it just wouldn't happen. Society and the absence of the rule of law mighthave lead them to take up arms, but nothing external to themselves has led them to commit these atrocities.

slguy says on Jan 24, 20:13:

You know, SrT, I have to agree with you on this point. In the final analysis, a society is ultimately responsible for it's own glaring problems.

Hitler could not have done the evil he did, without at least the tacit acquiescence of the German people, initially. Milosovich had to have had some acceptance, at least intially, to do what he did. There are very few cases of genocide, or any other mass evils, that are unavoidable, if good people decide that evil is intolerable. Perhaps the scale of the evil is beyond alteration, once evil is acquiesced to- but it's the beginning of evil that men of conscience have a responsibility to raise their voices in protest of. And yes, before you Bush and America bashers can chime in - the same is true of America's misconduct in Iraq - so there's no point in piling on, on that point. I concede this.

In any society, when people of conscience look the other way from evil - from intolerance, from violence, from any evil that man is capable of- it becomes a very slippery slope. To this degree, society as a whole bears responsibility.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 20:14:

"how does fighting against injustice ever lead to becoming a monster commiting atrocities a hundred times worse than anything that ever occured to you?"

Maybe in the answer to your question lies the solution to our problems. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer, but I doubt that the "inherent evil" of a bunch of peasants is solely responsible for it. I think there's been a sort of "natural selection" process, in which the romantic freedom fighters have been exterminated and only the toughest meanest fuckers have been able to survive. Now, how do we get rid of them? One alternative is to kill them all. But if they are just a symptom of a deeper problem, they'll get replaced by even tougher meaner fuckers, just like when Escobar died there were dozens of narcos ready to take his share of the market. I doubt that such enthusiasm for drug trafficking comes from the bad luck of having a larger share of inherently evil people.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 20:18:

"Hitler could not have done the evil he did, without at least the tacit acquiescence of the German people, initially. Milosovich had to have had some acceptance, at least intially, to do what he did"

The difference is that these two were fervently revered by a majority of their countrymen, as much as they will now tend to say otherwise, and the FARC are totally rejected by a vast majority of Colombians.

billyb says on Jan 24, 20:22:

"they'll get replaced by even tougher meaner fuckers, just like when Escobar died there were dozens of narcos ready to take his share of the market"

But those are driven by greed and you will never get rid of that.

slguy says on Jan 24, 20:28:

I'm not convinced that the majority of the German people even liked Hitler, much less revered him, ever. I think they tolerated him, because he made the trains run on time, and they were comfortable ignoring Mein Kampf. They took the path of least resistence, until it was too late.

Similarly, FARC didn't spring to life, 16,000 strong and animals. They were allowed to continue down that slippery slope I mentioned, because it was easier to allow their existence than it was to solve the problem- whatever solution was necesasary. Political will is often developed too late.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Colombiche (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 20:36:

"the FARC are totally rejected by a vast majority of Colombians."

Yes they are, but somehow we allowed them to thrive for years.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

billyb says on Jan 24, 20:37:

"because he made the trains run on time"

I thought that was Mussoulini :)

Have you seen those old newsreels of prewar Germany? Man, all those people lining the streets were cheering Hitler totally enraptured, and you can't fake that. But all this doesn't explain how society is responsible for the FARC's worst atrocities. Like I said before, society can be responsible for their taking up arms in the first place, and also for allowing them to grow, but that doesn't explain the quantum leap to their current depravity.

slguy says on Jan 24, 20:40:

I never claimed that society is responsible for the ultimate atrocities. Only that society bears responsibility for allowing the gestation of power in evil men.

Mighta been the Italian! jajajaja

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 20:41:

FARC are indeed rejected in those areas where they don't operate--which is the majority of our territory. Same thing with AUC. But where they operate, in "zonas rojas", things work very differently. Look at how the paracos used to roam over large areas of the Atlantic Coast without any obstacles. I've seen people talk positively of FARC in their territory. And pollsters don't go there to ask them questions.

The situation in Colombia is not like Hitler's Germany or Milosevic's Yugoslavia. Ours is not so much an enthusiasm toward oppression (although there's a bit of that) as much as a disdain toward the bad things that happen at the edges of our territory--an "out of sight out of mind" kind of effect. Just look at the paracos: They physically exterminated a whole political party, a kind of genocide without precedent, and most people didn't move a finger. When they came back again during the Caguan years, everyone was focused on the excesses of FARC--a brilliant strategy of Pastrana--while most ignored how the paracos where decimating large rural areas, killing in larger orders of magnitude than the guerrillas and creating the largest internal displacement of the world, a problem that nearly 10 years later is still not addressed.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 20:49:

So by that logic the paracos aren't responsible either, as it was society that caused them to do what they did, right? Or, in your view, are they truely evil men? And why stop there, what about Pol Pot, killing one third of his countrymen for the fun of it was caused by society's injustice to him?

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 21:03:

Being responsible doesn't mean being "evil". The paracos, the farcos, the corrupt politicians, all of them should be arrested to face a legitimate judicial system. They are legally and morally responsible for their actions, like everyone else. But what do we gain by labeling them as "evil"? That seems like a facile way of not taking OUR share of responsibility. Our responsibility, of course, is of a different kind. Few of us go around chainsawing people alive. But when that happens, we don't protest it, we don't demand action from our government, like it has nothing to do with us... it's all because they are inherently evil, and we are virginal angels. I don't buy it.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Jan 24, 21:13:

I'm not talkng about run of the mill crimes some corrupt politician or common criminal might commit, as despicable as those are, and I have a special disdain for corruption, I'm talking about chaining some innocent person by the neck to a tree in the jungle for ten years and counting.

Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 21:27:

I see what you mean. Yeah, maybe the person who directly does that can be said to be evil, but it's probably more precise to call him a psychopath. But those are few and, in a normal society, those guys are normally in jail or in a mental institution; unfortunately, in Colombia, they are more likely to be successful entrepreneurs that provide their "services" to criminal organizations. Far more common than the psychopath, though, are those who learn how to do these things, or how to ignore them or condone them. Since the Stanford Prison Experiment we know that it's not too hard to turn nice law abiding college students into mean cruel bastards.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Dolfi says on Jan 25, 02:06:

If you are looking at the results of elections in prewar Germany, you see that Hitler never had a majority. The best result of his party, the NSDAP, was 43,9%, he came to power in a coalition with the traditional right (people like Bush and his buddies). Of course he kicked all their asses and there never again was an election in Germany till the end of the war.

These results are also revealing if you look at them: NSDAP is skyrocketing vom 1930 on, after the big crash on Wallstreet in the USA, which strongly affected Europe and led to a big rise in unemployment.

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/statistik/waaaa3/index.html

podborski says on Jan 25, 03:39:

I do agree with one of your points sr t, which is that there are deeper problems in colombia that need to be solved, (although I'm going out on a limb there, I really don't know the history well at all).

But it sure sounds like a convenient way to excuse the behaviour of FARC, not to mention the paras, narcos, corrupt politicians etc.

It would sure be nice if people all over the world would wake up, pay more attention, think for themselves, and actually do something in the face of corrupt politicians instead of just shrugging their shoulders.

But I don't see it happening, which is just one more reason I believe removing as much power as possible from politicians is the only way to end corruption. (If a politician can't get something done for you, not much reason to pay him off)

Rob77 says on Jan 25, 05:15:

Sr Tertius says on Thursday January 24th, 2008 16:05:

"all the people that have plagued Colombia with violence are, they are the product of Colombian society. WE created them. They are a reflection of us."


One's personal situation/background can stear one toward a particular political ideology. But you can not excuse evil because of one's background. Supposedly, what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom is the ability to rationalize our behavior. To distinguish right from wrong, and to know when our actions cause others harm.

Not even economic conditions could excuse what these people purposely do to other living beings. Some of the nicest, most sincere and humble people I have met came from modest economic background, and they never consider causing harm to others.

These despicable leaders, like marulanda, have huge caches of money, gold, land - all obtained by hurting others. They don't even have the excuse of poverty for their actions. Unless someone here wants to say these A-holes dismember live Colombians for the good of the country...

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

tasco66 says on Jan 25, 07:04:

sad news for Cassini...

Veni, vidi, vici

cassini77 says on Jan 25, 08:22:

I have become the reference of tasco66.
He cannot write a word without thinking of me.
He wakes up with a start during the night, sweating, and, crazed, says : "I saw cassini in my room".
The straitjacket is not very far.

tasco66 says on Jan 25, 08:42:

Ha, ha, ha, very funny…

Yes you are the reference of Europeans who prefer terrorists to an elected leader…

Veni, vidi, vici

cassini77 says on Jan 25, 12:25:

and he is humorless

msaucey says on Jan 25, 12:43:

He just needs to die... At this point, I don't care if it is a long process or a short process..... Once this MoFo is out of the picture and successorship of FARC is an issue, we will see more FARC members quit....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

Colombiche (Moderator) says on Jan 25, 12:47:

I was talking to my mother this morning and she was telling me at some point a few months ago a colombian doctor who is known for administering euthanasia was kidnapped and returned a few days later. He never opened his mouth about who kidnapped him and why. There are speculations that Tirofijo is dead and this dr. was kidnapped to put him out of his misery.... does anybody know about this story???? IT sounds quite plausible.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

robi666 says on Jan 25, 12:51:

Naaa, they would have killed the doctor or kept him.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

Colombiche (Moderator) says on Jan 25, 12:55:

For what? He did what he had to do. I''m sure he is under threat to not open his mouth. They must know everything about his and his family's whereabouts.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

robi666 says on Jan 25, 12:59:

Colombiche, do you know what I think is the better result of all the last events? I do not mean just about FARC, also I see what's happening on the coast in Santa Marta with the new groups.
People has started to collaborate with police. More and more, people under threatening is calling for help.

Really, can't anyone see any change?

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

Colombiche (Moderator) says on Jan 25, 13:03:

Yes robi, I think this is a time of great momentum. DId you see the article I posted about the guerilleros that deserted the FARC in Manizales? Some guerilleros are reaching out to the colombian authorities and turning themselves in. The big mass desertations make it on the news, but apparently, on any given day 8 or so guerrilleros turn themselves in individually.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Chelesupercono says on Jan 25, 16:22:

Hey cassini.....if you admire the FARC then I suggest that you do an extended jungle vacation with them and the tell us all about it when you return.....you know around 2018......or so

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

goin_south says on Jan 25, 17:26:

He could join for a few weeks,... and then go turn himself in

NO MAS........ MARINERO YERRI'S... ;-(

msaucey says on Jan 25, 20:28:

GS, but that means he'd be back.... Cheles solution is much better...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis