this article was taken from el pais newspaper.. tells how tough it is to live in my neighbourhood. El Retiro

oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 12:31:

eso... problem is my dear, most cannot read the post
and more that most cannot imagine...
stay strong girl...

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British Paisa says on Jan 7, 2005, 12:40:

Scum takes care of getting rid of scum!...
Most of the time anyway, of course as with everything innocent people will get caught up in the mess.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 12:40:

well, I read the post and the only thing I can say...I can't say a thing! My lovely lady of the Valley is languishing in the middle of gang warfare, garbage heaping up, streets full of potholes, houses dilapidated and where are the government funds to help? Everything seems to be funnelled to Bogotá and surroundings while the periferia is getting suffocated by violence and abandon.

No cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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nanis says on Jan 7, 2005, 12:53:

Spot on Desi!! finally something we agree on girl! that was what i was talking about before... to stop this the government needs to help more, be more supportive towards its people and about the funds.. what funds?? the governemnt is so corrupt that if the funds do exist they will spend it all on their own private lives and what happens to the small fish? well my dear desi the small fish doesn't even matter, it doesn't come to the equation!! and that is why sometimes poor people resolve their situation by killing others to make a living.

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:01:

you see desi... in spite of all your angelic convictions..

colombia is one desperate place, filled with desperate people.

who have done, and will continue to do desperate things.

your examples of your history are inspiring,
but in the end,even you have to admit,...sad, but true.

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nanis says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:05:

OLDGRINGO you took the words right out of my mouth! that what i always say sad but true!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:07:

I'll admit nothing in that category, old gringo. Yes, it is deplorable, but my lovely lady of the Valley will overcome this bad period in her history. She's been around for a while (founded 1536 by Sebastián de Belalázar, a former swineherd from Extremadura), and will prevail.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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nanis says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:11:

ohh Desi!! you and your lovely sweet words! everytime i'm feeling pessimistic i'm gonna come looking for you girl! i've got to handed to you you've got one possitive mentallity.. good on you!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:13:

Mrs. Gomez, I think that the eye of the Powers That Be are looking elsewhere. The actual alcalde, Apolinar Salcedo is not doing a good job. Maybe because he can't see or that he can't see. I read in El Pais today that they are planning corrective measures to stop this violence in Cali. The statistics of the end of the year are not good. There's an average of 6 homicides committed in the coty every day, which makes Cali the most dangerous city in Colombia by a wide margin. No wonder I can't get my kids to travel there,
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:21:

Mrs. Gomez, I talk to people that are politically active in Cali practically every day and we all agree that somethings has to be done, and fast.
There's a lot of good people down there and not everybody is taking a hike, either.
I haven't lost my faith, even though the skies are dark with storm clouds.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:25:

fouded in 1536 and corrupted the same year...and refined since..

the most you can hope for, ladies, is that your kids learn that
this is NOT the way, and you both appear to be fine examples, from different ends of the cultural spectrum,of responsible,natural parents.you just teach them from different perspectives.
somehow, the oldgringo thinks that the child educated by the mother from the barrio, has a better chance of navigating through life, than the child of the middle-class mother,who, though she walks her talk,
may leave her child naive to the world.

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Miguel says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:30:

El Retiro en Cali y North St. Louis Aqui In the doldrums of winter here in St. Louis, the biggest crime is when one gives papaya by warming up their car and returning to their house; quite easy for the bad guys to open the door, drive said car away, scavenge and sell the parts and make a little plata. However, when the weather warms up, almost daily you read about people killed or wounded by drive-by gangbangers while they were sitting on their front porch talking with family, friends, and neighbors. It's nothing confined to Cali or the third world, for sure. My first Colombian friend was a caleño and I have an affinity for Cali. However, anyone who knows the city like Mrs. Gomez, or anyone who reads El Pais daily knows the climate of violence there. Personally, I dream of an heated debate between Mrs. G and Calipro, along with a better future for Cali.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:37:

you can dream on, miguel that debate is not going to happen.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:50:

senorito tinto... sorry to say..

it is my obsevation that that insidious fatalism
has indeed woven itself into the fabric of society.(colombian,
argentinian,burmese,north korean,palestinian, african states,etc.

that is the battle in colombia,...many younger colombians know,
and want more, but don't have any opportunity to gratify their
desire.many give up after 10-20-30-40- years y voila!!
national fatalismo mixed with newer and younger and better educated hopes, still doomed to be repeated.

i wish i had an answer...

by the way,the oldgringo remembers when colombia had no reputation
whatsoever for violence, in way we think of it now,...before cocaine.
this, clearly has been the catalyst, that has resulted in the violence
that has developed since its gringo-conceived beginnings.

...thank them...

..but for greed and corruption by conquistadores of any nation,
imagine the difference in the history of desperate places like
colombia or afghanistan or south africa...etc.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:59:

and one more thing, old gringo,
no she was not corrupted from the date she was founded (I don't know why but for me Cali has always been a she. Love City)

for a long time she existed as a sleepy, provincial small town surrounded by sugar fields, but suddenly boomed into a city in mid 50s inundated by people from North Valle and antiguo Caldas taking refuge there from the Violence. Yet, the core of Cali has always been southern, agricultural, traditional. Big industries established themselves in the vicinity, townships mushroomed in the surrounding valley, a railway was built to serve the port of Buenaventura and the northern municipalities of the province.

In 1970s Cali became the host for the Panamerican Games and city went through a transformation that modernized it. In 1975 Cali was the host for World Championship of Swimming. In that time she was called the Sports Capital of Colombia. Later, there she became famous for her party scene, as the Salsa Capital of Colombia, and from the 1990s started to decline, due to the bubble of economical wealth that burst at the dismantling of the Cali cartel.
I believe it was the cartel that caused the biggest damage to Cali.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:04:

how sweet... thats a nice little picture, i got one like it in
my time-life book on colombia 1955...
back then the spaniards weren't still taking any advantage
of the indiginos,were they?

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Miguel says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:13:

2 Points Violence in Colombia existed before the cocaine craze, and if demand did not exist for cocaine, supply would be a non-entity.

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:19:

wait a minit.. GOB...what country do you think i come from??

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:25:

senorito miguel.. the violence i spoke of...(they way we think of it NOW)
did not exist in the cities pre-cocaine..basuco...
it developed shortly after the gringos introduced the problem from bolivia and peru.
the colombians caught on fast, and took control.
the rest is a history of political blunders.
of course legalisation is the answer.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:31:

and yet... back in the sweet 70s you could walk the streets of Cali and see the coca plants used as garden variety for hedges outlining the front yards...nobody thought of them as something that'd bring on the turmoil of the following years. My mother-in-law (r.i.p.) had a big coca brush in¨the back patio of the San Fernando house as late as as 1991.

Nobody back then was interested in the plant..they told me it wa ssomething the indigenas of Bolivia and Perú chewed to mitigate the hunger pains when working in the mines. What happened?

Well, I think the greed was what happened. Suddenly, Colombians discovered the huge market existing in the US for recreational drugs, and the rest is history. I can't blame them, only lament the road taken.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:32:

and violence has existed in Colombia from times inmemorial.
D

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:43:

gee... i said that...

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oldbongo says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:45:

si , si ,si... y loco tambien...
thats what coke does...
entonces...locolombia...

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Miguel says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:46:

hey Gringo y Desi Good to "speak" with you. Now that I think of it, coca just grew, more or less, wild in Colombia until it became a "cash crop", and then it was planted with a purpose. Right?

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Lionheart says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:48:

gang crime Once again I see the current problems with gang crime being focused on Cali here ... because of one article. Yes, Cali is being hit hardest in Colombia right now, but take a look at other Latin American countries too!

Honduras is suffering hardest currently. A whole bus load of cummuters and xmas shoppers was gunned down by gang members in cold blood. And I read of more incidents there. Other Central American countries, Brazil, and Mexico are reporting a rise of gang crimes. Many reported deaths are between gang members and locals of their territories.

So it is not much different than LA or other gang heavy centers in the USA, except for the incident with the bus. Many of you are too fast in waving the Colombian flag here ... it is a common youth problem in general. I recall reading about the same kind of incidents in Asia. So I believe it is a current problem within our society in general, not just Colombia. I found one very disturbing comment in the report about the Honduras bus incident: The leaders of the gangs are deportees from the USA from LA, known ex-gang members there, the same I heard from Mexico. So instead of putting them behind bars in the USA we take the easy way out and send known violent criminals/murderers back to their home countries, where they continue to wreak hovoc. I do not know if any of the gang members in Cali are US deportees ... but let's not rule out the possibility.

Another topic on this ... many gang members everywhere watch the gang-related Hollywood movies being produced by the dozen, their main actors are heroes in the gang's eyes, the sexy chicks are their reward, they want to be like that, modern Robin Hoods of their neighborhood.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 14:54:

that's what I don't know, tinto and I'd like to. I have a lapse of about ten years there when I was busy buiding a new life for myself and my family somewhere else. I don't know what happened in Colombia between 1982 and 1992, when it was the heyday of Pablo Escobar and the Cartels.

Lehder was a capo of the the Medellin Cartel, but always a subordinate to Pablo Escobar. President Betancour was busy trying to bring peace in the country, giving amnesty to M19 guerrillas and it was the the years of the Unión Patriotica and the murder of almost all of their representants. A very sad period in the history of Colombia it was. Navarro Wolff escaped from death, but not unscathed. MAS (Muerte a los Secuestradores) was rampant and the AUCs took form.

Basically, whát I believe it was a period of weak governments.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Miguel says on Jan 7, 2005, 15:07:

Right Desi It got to the point that the dollars made by the cartels were exceeding the monetary power of the government and it tipped the balance of power in Colombia, according to the information in the book "Mataba Pablo".

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caslug says on Jan 7, 2005, 15:23:

US already legalizes one of the most destructive drugs.. known to man... Tobacco!! US gov't regulate it, tax the users and use part of the money to fund anti-tobacco ads. Plus, because it's legalize and big corpration are in the business. They also are expose to lawsuit which forces them to controll/regulate it even more. US tobacco companies are pushing their "drugs" to 2/3rd countries now that's where most of the growth is. Can you believe people actually SMUGGLE US cigaretts into some countries now.

In the US, tobacco companies are not fighting law enforncemnt on the streets of US cities. Instead of armies of "street criminals" they have armies of lawyers fighting for their survival. They don't kill people who oppose them, they paid them off to settle lawsuits. But, it's not COL or Brazil that needs to legalize drugs, it's the western nations, because they're the one using it the most.

BTW, Holland has Legalize drugs and they don't have major problem w/ a spike in usage.

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juanalejo says on Jan 7, 2005, 15:33:

Powerful Colombians Please do not forget to mention here of how powerful the Colombians are, I mean being able to sell drugs in every corner of the industrialized non corrupt world, without their highly sophisticated and extremely well paid police and customs not being able to stop it or identify the trade networks. I mean we have to be the most powerful bunch of people on earth or is it maybe that the industrialized nation´s police and customs are in the business as much as the Colombian mafias and those governments are more interested in the keeping the money from leaving their countries that really fighting the drugs? Or is it that their governments simply a complete set of inefficient people and they are not really as capable as they pretend to be and all that precious tax money is simply put down the drain?
Ah and I keep forgetting what the US has taught us about a principle of capitalism, that the demand creates the offer, but some Gringos tend to mix us up when it comes to drugs and they blame the offer for that existing demand. I just do not remember us inventing cocaine, patenting it and then marketing it until we finally convinced a bunch of people to use it. Wow I learn new economics every day.

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juanalejo says on Jan 7, 2005, 16:11:

I accept my part I absolutely accept my governments part in this problem and have always said it, I am of the first people to accept the problems existing around here where they do exist. The difference with you and your government is that first we do not have the resources to fight it, second you do not have the poverty problems and third you do not spend proportionally what we do according to the resources each has to solve the problem. We have put through the years more than we ever should have, not only in money, but in blood, reputation, mistreatment etc. etc. And yet the only thing we recieve is money mostly to be spent in American made military equipment, a spot in the black list by the State Department and a some of their nationals bad jokes who come here have a blast and then go back showing off as if they were a bunch of heroes after having stepped into this country. Then they go around telling stories of the danger they lived in and how all the women they met were only trying to get into their pants and wallets with the hope you might get them passports to help them out of this terrible sh.. hole.

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Miguel says on Jan 7, 2005, 16:20:

GIB Hey Dumb F--k, if the demand did not exist, the production would die. Your posts, with all the typos and doomsday predictions bore the hell out of me.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 16:29:

this is not one to one situation. The US has not, seriously, assessed the problem of the drugs in South America. They are still focusing on the guerrilla, instead of assigning money to benefit social reforms that would make the cultivation and production of coca bush or opium plants non-profitable for the farmers.
Spraying is not the answer; it's vile and causes more damage in the environment that what it's worth. The obvious is overlooked: fr what purposes, I can't understand.
I'd say go ahead and legalize.
Or provide the farmers with more profitable alternatives.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 16:38:

miguel the coca bush was used as a decorative plant long before. It's endemic to the area, and was used in hedges and gardens. Every coca bush in Cali were ripped up from the earth and destroyed in the 80s as the plant became notorious being the source of the drug.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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juanalejo says on Jan 7, 2005, 16:43:

GIB Obviously that legalization is the key to solve the problem, just wish we could just simply do it. People like you tend to think that the economy here is run by drugs, and although some is we do no depend on it. The government measures this money and how much it impacts the economy itself and the worse predictions talk about the 7% of the GNP. (government says around 5%). Yet studies show that the whole drug, guerrilla, paramilitaries war and its effects, have caused a permanent 2% a year lack of growth in the economy for the last 15 years. You do the numbers.When the economy stopped in 96-98 every said it was because the mafias dissappeared, if any new big store opens in Colombia, it must be laundering money. It is all of the same story making fatalist sector of society that you seem to frequent that would like to see Colombia worse day by day. But unfortunatelly for them it is not heading in that direction. I agree that the US intervention now has made Colombia more secure, but if the right decisions had been made there at the right moment we would not be needing that assistance today. I really give one advice Mr Gringo, change friends, look for some that will take you out of that fatalistic paranoia you seem to be, because you like it or not we live in a country that is fpr those that believe in it, simply poor but happy.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 7, 2005, 16:45:

it's easy, gringo your people stop using the drug (no market), Colombians will grow something else (no production), Extremely simple. Even a child of five would understand that.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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juancegomez says on Jan 7, 2005, 17:20:

Curiously... ...changing history and ecology somewhat, if coca and weed plants had grown naturally in the US and in Europe, instead of big tobacco we'd be taking about legal "Big Coca" and "Big Weed" corporations and their lobbies...and if at the same time tobacco was displaced to Colombia and the surrounding areas and only "discovered" comercially later on, it would probably be subject to a "war on tobacco" and tobacco farmers and traders through ineffective prohibition.

I don't do drugs and I never will...but it's clear to me that the primary responsibility for this lies mostly up in the northern parts of the world, where due to a huge demand large numbers of misguided and selfish people are willing to pay for a product that could easily be just as legal as tobacco, alcohol and other legal poisons, but their governments and "moral majorities" don't want to make it so.

And despite what some have said, plenty of studies show that the vast majority of the money in this illegal business ends up outside of Colombia...perhaps it'd end up inside if such products were legal, but the ruling nations of the world don't care about that and their leaders only want to go on upholding some nebulous sense of morality, while at the same time, in practice, providing their citizens, under the table, with what they want and getting plenty of side benefits, while other countries such as Colombia have to endure the bloody prices and harmful sideeffects of their addictions. All in exchange for some pennies (both through anti-drug aid and through drug profits per se).

It wasn't Colombia or Peru or Bolivia as nations that said suddenly "Oh, here's some cocaine and some weed, buy it, please!". The demand and the need to consume all this crap came from elsewhere, just as the "moral mandate" to make it illegal.

If Colombia, Peru, Bolivia and other countries legalized drug production and consumption on their own(unless the big producers and consumers legalize it, then the illegal market and sellers would just shift their business elsewhere), the US and most of Europe would say "how dare you!" and accuse them of being treasonous, cutting aid and economic trade as punishment for such "irresponsible" and "immoral" behavior.

Only if the big and powerful nations and their leaders change their mindsets, or are convinced to do so, can true change come about. But I doubt that'll happen in my lifetime.

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Summit says on Jan 7, 2005, 17:51:

your country Why is this counrty in such terrible condition. The people are very respectful and want a better life. Please tell a 5th generation American why such sweet people put up with danger, confusion, anger, criminality. There is no shame in poverty. All Americans and there families started at the bottom in a violent and lawless country. But we saw hope for each sucessive generation.

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gabriel says on Jan 7, 2005, 23:23:

I saw this article in the newspaper, don't really know what to say about it, statistic sometimes are alot different than the reality of day to day living.
El homicidio en Colombia se reduce sustancialmente
(5:32 p.m.) Bogotá, (AP). -El homicidio se redujo en Colombia el año pasado a niveles que no se veían desde hace 18 años, acompañado de una disminución importante en la gran mayoría de los indicadores de criminalidad, informó el gobierno.

El ministro de Defensa, Jorge Uribe, junto a toda la cúpula militar y policial, afirmó que se registraron poco más de 20 mil asesinatos, una reducción del 14,9% frente al año pasado y de 30% en comparación con el 2002.

La disminución más importante se produjo en Medellín, que fue del 40%, dijo la fundación Seguridad y Democracia, en su informe de final de año.
También el secuestro extorsivo disminuyó en casi 50%, pasando de 1.468 a 746. Las masacres disminuyeron en un 52%.

Yerba mala nunca muere....

Yerba mala nunca muere....

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 8, 2005, 06:57:

yes, but look at this: "Cali, una capital violenta



Esta ciudad casi duplica el número de crímenes ocurridos en Medellín en el mismo periodo y supera el registro de Bogotá. El sicariato es la modalidad más utilizada. Los hombres entre 20 y 29 años son las principales víctimas. Piden mantener las medidas de seguridad.

Cali se convirtió en la capital más violenta entre las tres principales ciudades del país durante el 2004, reportó ayer la directora de Cisalva, María Isabel Gutiérrez.

El balance epidemiológico entregado por el Centro de Investigaciones en Violencia y Salud, Cisalva, da cuenta que en la capital del Valle ocurrieron el año pasado 2.160 homicidios, un promedio de 6 diarios.

Con ese resultado, Cali casi que duplicó la criminalidad de Medellín en el mismo periodo que registró 1.175 muertes violentas, y superó con creces el resultado de Bogotá, que teniendo tres veces más la población caleña presentó 1.316 homicidios.

Los resultados muestran que en esta capital se produjo un homicidio cada cuatro horas y que el medio más utilizado para su comisión es el arma de fuego en el 88,1% de los casos. " (El Pais, yesterday)

Desi,
no cheers

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 9, 2005, 11:36:

Who was it who said weed did not grow here? I had low-grade hemp growing in the ditches back on my ranch in Texas. Not worth smoking though. I think most US consumption of marijuana is met by production here but I would be interested in knowing the statistics on that. Hint. Hint.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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oldbongo says on Jan 9, 2005, 11:42:

it grows everywhere... but most of all, it grows in canada...
exporter of misery to millions, according to GOB...
hack..hack..

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Lionheart says on Jan 9, 2005, 14:20:

cowboy When I lived in Austin I knew a native indian who had some very special plants delivering the nicest purple buds you can imagaine. he took very good care of them in his courtyard. I also knew a few Mexicans who prefered their home-grown buds over imports. They also had good peyote sources.

I had the similar experiences in MD and ME. In Maine one indian gal got her supply of buds from her tribe criss-crossing the Canadian border. So it seems you need to establish good friendships with native american indians in your area for the top of the crop. Many of their stuff are single-hitters ....

And no, I have no phone numbers or addresses, so don't ask ....

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gabriel says on Jan 9, 2005, 23:42:

off the topic, just wondering if oneone knew what the hell was "BAZUKA" this shit that they smoke in cali, seems to be some bad shit, kind of like crack(piedra).

Yerba mala nunca muere....

Yerba mala nunca muere....

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oldbongo says on Jan 10, 2005, 08:18:

it's called..basuco.. and is very bad..
it is the primitive coca base,...unrefined..
they've been smokin that poison for 30 years,
and look at the place....if you value your life,
the oldgringo suggests,...make yourself scarce around
basuco burners.

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oldbongo says on Jan 10, 2005, 08:44:

hey tinto.... te gusta su tinto con baileys??

porfa...don't tell me the ozzies are bigger
potheads that the canucks!!!....

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oldbongo says on Jan 10, 2005, 09:16:

thank goodness...we're tryin.. we need that distinction to maintain
comic pressure on usareefermadnesslandia.

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nanis says on Jan 10, 2005, 13:02:

for you guys that don't know what basuco is... Basuco it's made from coca, you roll it and smoke it as a spliff it is actually cocain that goes directly to your lungs. basuco is extracted when cocain is being processed, it is a cocain paste it is the cheapest way to get high, but the worst it has some nasty chemicals which will drive you mad! completly insane! it may also contain petrol, sodium bicarbonate, tabacco and anything you can think of it depends on how you're feeling that day you may want to put some brick powder!

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