The U.S. is an immigrant nation and Colombia is not

morphus says on Jan 11, 2008, 09:36:

Colombians ancestors are Spaniards that killed Injuns and rapred Injun women. True Americans are a mixture of English, German and Scandinavian.

Cerealkiller says on Jan 11, 2008, 09:44:

Colombians are sons of immigrants too. A lot of people do not know where their ancestors come from because families were fragmented, many were illegitimate children from slaves, indians and never had access to their origins. Colombia is a new nation, just like the US but the family structure since Spanish times was completely different from that of the US. Saying that colombia is not a nation of immigrants suggests that colombians are homogenous, and that is FAR from accurate.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

morphus says on Jan 11, 2008, 09:47:

I'm a descendant of Genghis Khan :)

joetexan says on Jan 11, 2008, 10:20:

Guys, I think you are missing my point.

Obviously, Colombia is a nation of the new world and in that sense an immigrant nation. Saying your ancestors were from elsewhere is not the same. Everything about the U.S. is tied in with immigration. If you read a history textook of the U.S., most of it is about the story of immigration and how that shaped the U.S. In everyday life in the U.S., you constantly meet new or recent immigrants from other parts of the world. For example, when I was in my twenties, I shared rent for a while with a friend who walked across the border from Mexico, then with a Biafran who escaped the genocide in Nigeria and came to the U.S. on a U.N. refugeee visa, then with a Vietnamese refugee, and now my best friends in Austin are Zoroastrians from India. Lots of Colombian immigrants also. In fact, Austin now has three Colombian restraurants!

Cubans refugees from Castro, Vietnamese boat people, Chinese political refugees, over the past 15 years millions of Russian immigrants, Polish, Arabs, Nicaraguans. Not long ago I did a custody evaluation and both parents were Nicaraguan refugees- the uncle of the wife was the dictator Samoza. Anyone can claim refugee status in the U.S. if they can prove they were the victim of political persecution. During the bad days of Pastrana, 800,000 upper class Colombians immigrated to the U.S. to escape the violence.

Prior to WWII, the U.S. welcomed all immigrants with open arms, no restrictions except they could not have a communicable disease.

Oh yeah, just for your info. The Association of Colombian Students at the University of Texas - Austin has 350 members.

joetexan says on Jan 11, 2008, 10:26:

morphus,

True Americans are....Europeans, Africans, Asians, Indigenous, Latinos, Eskimos, Samoans....

But you make my point. You believe most Americans are decendents of English, Germans, and Scandinavians. You're wrong. The U.S. government predicts that by the year 2050, half of all Americans will be Latin-Americans. Just imagine, in 50 years the U.S. will be a Latin-American nation.

There are 50,000 Hindu engineers in Houston, Texas, most working for NASA.

LilaM says on Jan 11, 2008, 10:46:

Easy, we (colombians) come from those spanish people (whores and thieves) that "discover" el Dorado, so don´t put too much brain on that. And at the end, we were allllllllllll mixed.

We have some pure colombian races like Nukak Makuk, Wayuu, emberas.... so yes we have pure colombians too.

But our roots are based on mixing, while English exterminate indians in the use, Spanish used their family jewels (as elmo said) with our female indians.

Like Pocahontas and Johm Smith.....

"Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer." Ed. Cunningham

joetexan says on Jan 11, 2008, 10:59:

LialM,

Sorry, but you have it backwards. The Conquistadores exterminated Indians. There was a genocide of Indians in Latin America. There was no genocide of Indians in North America. Your information must be from movies. There were massacres of Indians, yes, but never a wide spread genocide of Indians. I am from Washington state, and there are lots of Indian tribes all over the Pacific Northwest. Many are very rich. You probably think that all Indian reservations are like the ones in New Mexico and Arizona shown in movies. Where I grew up, the land reserved for the Nez Perz indians was one million acres of their most prime hunting grounds. They are now very rich. On the land reserved for the Indians in Oklahoma, oil was discovered and lots of them are rich. When I lived in Palm Springs, Ca., I discovered that the Agua Caliente Indians of that area are very rich. The land was divided into a checkerboard and they got every other square mile of land. Different history. What you have seen in the movies is not reality.

morphus says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:05:

The people who formed the United States were English, German and Scandinavian. German almost became the official language but got beat out by English.

2050? There will still be a lot of white Americans. There will just be a lot more Latinos than there are now. Whites can't out screw the latinos.

nine inch nails says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:06:

I like your analysis JT and jealous of your work schedule.

Yes Texas very heavily German influenced: New Braunfels Octoberfest every year and the many other towns streets with Germanic names. And then there is the Shiner Bock too. Plus all the other cultures (from most corners of the world represented) esp. in Houston make it a good place to live. God bless Texas

BSME Univ. of Texas, 1990

Hook em!

get down, get down

LilaM says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:15:

Joe I think that your history books aren´t better than mine, so yes we have a mixed race...... and coming back to the topic, well we have people with roots of Lebanon, Germany, Turkish people on the coast, so we have our one inmigration. And the problem here is that we don´t have too many evidence from that, and no we still have pure colombian races.

Take a look of these picture. Floro Tunubalá, elected 2.000 as governor of the state of Cauca in Colombia, the first Native American elected as governor in Colombian history.


You guys in the US have everything documented here we just have to attach to the newspapers and some books.

"Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer." Ed. Cunningham

joetexan says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:26:

NIN - "hook 'em horns."

Did ya'll notice that my innocent thread on Protestants and Catholics has already been erased? Wow. I am learning more and more about the religous repression in Colombia. A close friend of mine, Prof. Emeritus Ardila of the Nacional University, told me that I have only a tiny understanding of how horrible the repression has been. He said the greatest pain of his life was watching what the church did to Colombia. But, I suppose even that will be deleted because someone behind the scenes here considers it heresy. Not even a famous Colombian like Prof. Ardila, who was given a lifetime achievement award last year by the APA for his contribution to multi-cultural understanding, could criticize the church and get away with it here.

morphus says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:27:

You need to learn to navigate the site.

LilaM says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:34:

jejejej morphus, but I agree with that proffesor about the repression, I just have some reminds of my Nun´s school jaaaaaaa that was overacting!!!

"Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer." Ed. Cunningham

Desi1 (Moderator) says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:44:

LilaM, that guy is a Guambiano, right? They have representants in the Congress too and I believe the town of Silvia, Cauca, has had Guambiano mayors I have good friends up there.

dwr says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:45:

by the year 2300 the race of the entire earth will be one light brown color.

LilaM says on Jan 11, 2008, 11:56:

Desi gracias se me habia olvidado sisisi guambiano

"Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer." Ed. Cunningham

kentuckygreg2 says on Jan 11, 2008, 12:07:

True Americans are a mixture of English, German and Scandinavian. You betcha!!!

I am true American GRINGO! German, English, Irish, Scottish, and a dash of Cherokee Indian. :)

Love and happiness!

scotty says on Jan 11, 2008, 12:33:

zzzzzzzzz and sooo what

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

donmia says on Jan 11, 2008, 13:05:

i would have thought the discussion would have been more interesting if it were framed in terms of people immigrating to colombia versus the u.s., mostly because this site seems to be dedicated to ex-patriates.

what about the population of people who choose to move to Colombia today? who are they and what are they like? why do they choose to live here?

now that would be an interesting discussion, not a string of misstatments about the racial makeup of the u.s. or their origins. especially the native americans. sorry, they were being chased off the continent from east to west. just because they were able to stand their ground just shy of the pacific is not evidence that there was no attempt to erradicate them.

joetexan says on Jan 11, 2008, 14:25:

donmia,

If it doesn't interest you, ignore it. I thought this forum was to further understanding and exchange information. If you don't want to read a message or it is not interesting to you, skip it. Telling others that what they want to say is not appropriate here is extremely arrogant. Now we have not only monitors to censor posts, but posters who want to restrict free speech and decide what is or is not appropriate.

A few years ago when I participated for two years on the Financial Times of London board, all the politically incorrect of us got to know at what time of the day the English school marms were working as monitors, and which boards had muslim monitors. I think maybe there are some raving Catholic fanatics in the woodpile on this board.

rocinante says on Jan 11, 2008, 14:37:

"I thought this forum was to further understanding and exchange information." - Could you be more vague?

This is a forum of Colombia - not the US, not US immigration and NOT one branch of religion versus the other. You need to find another pedestal, oh highly exalted blow hard.

FYI - the US wiped out a much higher percentage of indigenous than the Spaniards.

I'm sick again.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Chelesupercono says on Jan 11, 2008, 15:48:

The U.S. Govt. broke all 159 treaties they signed with the Indians and killed at least 50% of them through disease and outright murder.....the Spaniards did not bother with treaties, they just enslaved them and worst of all.....they unleashed the Catholic Church on the poor bastards......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

joetexan says on Jan 11, 2008, 15:48:

Rocinante,

Ah, my little Nazis. Telling others what they can say and trying to play God and decide what people should or should not say. And you're wrong again. There are dozens of tribes and millions of indigenous in the U.S. You really believe the Protestant fanatics were better at slaughtering people than Conquistadores? 90% of the indigenous that died in the U.S. died of European diseases for which they had no natural immunity.

Why are you so defensive?

scotty says on Jan 11, 2008, 16:25:

those damn euopeans and their deseases, i wionder why those damn europeans keep sending desease everywhere?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

Desi1 (Moderator) says on Jan 11, 2008, 16:30:

Never mind a little case of smallpox. You guys gave us syphilis.

scotty says on Jan 11, 2008, 18:19:

whose you guys?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

rocinante says on Jan 11, 2008, 18:35:

Thanks for the Textbook propaganda answer. Yes all those native americans died of disease. Not murder. The disease was the "Wander West - itis" Not only is it lethal but forces one to move across the country for no apparent reason. Look it up in the medical journals. Of course it is only carried by Protestants.

Can I change my date in the meltdown pool?

Dude, calling people Nazis is no way to garner friends on a board where your posts are boring and have nothing to do with the website you are on. AS much as you can throw in Colombia into your topic, your agenda is obvious and got you banned (10 times did you say) on the CNN site. Gee, I wonder why? Also you never told me why you have been coming to Colombia for 30 years and can't speak Spanish. Is there a Protestant disease for that?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Jan 11, 2008, 18:38:

"whose you guys?"

The Catholics, of course. Priests got it from little boys and that's how VD started. Didn't you read the Passover Plot or the DaVinci code?.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

scotty says on Jan 11, 2008, 19:09:

sorry i must have missed that. those damn Catholics, thiose damn europeans, those damn republicans, those damn...who did i forget?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

rocinante says on Jan 11, 2008, 19:37:

You missed Chavez, of course. He's taking over South America and no one knows about it except three posters from PBH.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

rocinante says on Jan 11, 2008, 19:42:

Desi - I can't read that artists' full name. What is it? Thanks.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

john_stark says on Jan 11, 2008, 21:41:

All of my eight great grandparents were born in North America. Of all my ancestors the most recent arrival was in 1852 with the majority having arrived in the late 1600s and early 1700s. It doesn't seem to me that most Colombians give a rat's ass about genealogy. My wife has no idea who her ancestors are beyond great grandparents. I can trace them all back to England, Ireland and Scotland.

Desi1 (Moderator) says on Jan 12, 2008, 01:57:

Not Catholics, native amerindians. Syphilis was unknownin Europe until the sailors brought it to us from the New World at the beginning of the 16th century.

Roci, the artist's name is Arja Toivonen. She's a close friend of mine, lived in Silvia, Cauca, painting guambianos and landscapes, then Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia ...married to an Otavalo Indian from northern Ecuador and living with her husband and daughter in Finland.

The girl in the portrait is a guambiana called Barbara.

joetexan says on Jan 12, 2008, 10:56:

I also saw that documetery on television about the origin of syphilis. Very interesting epideomological investigation I think the British did. The objective was not to fix blame, but to research historical events during the middle ages. They can tell who had syphilis from bones and it might be one of the only disease that went from the Americas to Europe.

John Stark,

I agree, I have never met a Colombia who was very interested in researching their ancestors. It is certainly a passion with many Gringos, I suppose because we are a nation of immigrants. I have a facinating story to tell you about a student I met in Bogota who is a decendent of the Catholic Converso's of the inquition. She didn't know it, but I did because I had read the history of the Converso's in a guidebook in Spain.

There is a small group of Catholics who light candles every Friday night at sunset. She told me that was a Catholic tradition of her family for centuries. I told her it was not a Catholic trandition, it was a tradition her Catholic family has maintained since the inquisition. This was very upsetting to her, but I told her it is a Jewish religious tradition and her ancestors in Andalusia were Jews. She couldn't believe it so I told her I could guess when her ancestors immigrated to Colombia. She said never in a million years, but that she knew the date. I guessed 1550. They arrived in Colombia in 1553. Before the Conquistadores, in the time of Cristopher Colombus. They were Catholic Converso's who made a run for freedom over the Atlantic, in 1553. Wow!

My doc told me there is an ancient Saphadic Jewish cemetary in Bogota with graves from the 16th century. Medellin was founded by Spanish Jews who ran from the inquisition. Fascinating history, but Colombians don't know about it because the church erased all information about the inquisition from history books in Colombia. Bad for the image of the church.

rocinate,

I am also perplexed by my poor ability to acquire a foreign language. After 35 years, my Spanish still stinks. I figure that either I have a learning disability for foreign languages, or I'm just too damn lazy to study. I keep telling myself that I am going to make a big effort, but laziness prevails. Then again, I was a hippy for ten years and laziness was our goal.

If you were educated in the U.S., you know that almost all the indigenous who died were a result of Europeans diseases for which they had no immunity. There was one incedent of biological warfare when the British gave the Indians blankets infected with smallpox, but biological warfare can kill both sides and it was not used again.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 12, 2008, 11:10:

As long as people are telling tales, my great-great....great grandfather was Myles Standish and his wife was Pocahontas.

joetexan says on Jan 12, 2008, 11:28:

Tinto,

There was more to the story. This was in an auditorium with 300 sceptical students at the Nacional, and they finally accepted it was true. How could I guess the date except by the history? She was in tears and it brought down the house. Also, the last name of her great-grandfather was Sr. Sephardim! She had no idea it is a jewish words that translates in Spanish as "Spanish Jew."

There was one German girl in the audiance and she was stunned to learn there is a museam of the Inquisition in Cathegena. She said no such museam exists in Europe and the millions of Europeans would be fascinated to visit that museam. I agree - the tourism potential of Colombia is incredible.

Chelesupercono says on Jan 12, 2008, 11:31:

If Miles Standish had killed a kat for Thanksgiving instead of that dammed turkey.....we would all be eating ^ussy for Thanksgiving dinner.....ummmmmm

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

joanseb says on Jan 12, 2008, 11:36:

Mi apellido es Arredondo, que es una ciudad de españa, asi que obviamente mis ancestros son españoles.

docwilliam says on Jan 12, 2008, 11:53:

All 4 of my Grandparents were the first generation (born) in the US. I am only 3rd generation American.

"There's no time to panic"

john_stark says on Jan 12, 2008, 15:03:

Maybe if you spent more time practicing your Spanish and less time making idiotic posts on the internet your Spanish would be better.

john_stark says on Jan 12, 2008, 15:08:

It would be more accurate to say that Sephardim means "Jews of the Spanish rite" as opposed to Ashkenazim meaning "Jews of the German rite".

Desi1 (Moderator) says on Jan 12, 2008, 15:20:

John be nice!

CatGirl says on Jan 12, 2008, 15:50:

Purr...I think John needs massage maybe?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

gold digger says on Jan 12, 2008, 20:21:

Don't forget the trail of tears. 4,000 Cherokees died.
Indians were herded up and put on reservations. When they finally started to settle in, gold was struck and they were moved again. But at least they get free health care now. Most of the Indians here in Florida are doing ok. They just bought a hard rock cafe in Miami and have gambling places all over the place.(pretty sure they are tax free also)

scotty says on Jan 13, 2008, 17:12:

Desi,instead of saying you damn native americans shouldnt you be saying you damn sailors

those damn euopeans, damn sailors, damn native americans, damn chavez, damn Bush, damn yankees, damn pittbulls, damn movie stars, damn Clintons, whew..i hope i got everyone in this time.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

slguy says on Jan 13, 2008, 17:23:

Don't start on the sailors! jajajajajajjajaja

Gold Digger- the miccasukees (sp?) didn't just buy the Miami Hard Rock- they've owned it for years.

What they bought was ALL the Hard Rocks. $1 billion. Half now, in cash, half later.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Robert Jorge says on Jan 13, 2008, 21:03:

The Micasuckies own all Hard Rocks? Wow, I had no idea.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

slguy says on Jan 13, 2008, 21:05:

Just closed the deal a month or two ago. $500 million in cash, the other half later. Been across the Trail lately? The days of all those rusted-out pickups on the reservation are LONG gone...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Desi1 (Moderator) says on Jan 13, 2008, 21:34:

Did I say "damn"?

scotty says on Jan 14, 2008, 01:47:

i said damn for you cuz i knew you were thinkling it.

the injuns around my state all own casinos and leaase their land to gringos on 99 year leases. they are making big wompum

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

donmia says on Jan 14, 2008, 13:42:

joe texan:

there was nothing censorious about my post. merely a suggestion of a way for the discussion to evolve. i'm sorry it offended.

maybe you should look less at those that are "attacking" you and more at your sense of "being attacked"

msaucey says on Jan 14, 2008, 13:49:

Not all Native American Tribes are rich...

http://www.kumeyaay.info/los_coyotes.html?http://www.kumeyaay.info/los...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis