The politics of usted

la campiña says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:12:

I've raised my head above the parapit ? trenches. My spanish is not very good but I can communicate, express my opinion blah blah. Vosotros is not widely used here in colombia ( cali ) pero "¿como estas ? muy bien y voz" is used. Usted is formal, tu is informal, I use Tu for my friends, and usted for strangers, people older than me, with respect, or friends if i am very serious with them. 2 verbs to be, ok profesores shoot me down jaje

Lisa Zee says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:14:

I think it is a young thing, hip, or something of the new generation,
Usted is formal singular, ustedes is formal prural.
Tu is informal singular, there is no plural.
Vos is informal singular, and vosotros is informal prural.
In Colombia the proper way is that way. In Medellin we use" vos" more than "tu", and we never say vosotros, only in Spain. In Colombia we speack one of the best Espanish after Spain.
But like everything changes I guess.

la campiña says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:17:

what happened to " Tus, por ejemplo tus gafas ¿?

de pronto says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:19:

la campiña, in Mexico we follow the same policy for the use of "usted" and "tu"

"Tu" for friends and "usted" for strangers, people older than me, with respect, or friends if i am very serious with them.

On day I was talking to my friend (colombiana) and I told her "entendió jovencita?" and she said to me "don't you ever use usted with me!", I asked her why I should not use "usted" and said "prefiero que me mientes la madre a que me hables de usted".

I honestly did not get it.

... y viaje a Macondo todo pagado

de pronto says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:23:

I also don't get the meaning of "marica" because in Mexico means "homosexual", but I have heard some colombians referring to each other as "oiga marica". My friend's boyfriend got mad when my friend called him "man" why? I don't know

Pretty confusing...

... y viaje a Macondo todo pagado

la campiña says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:28:

maybe its because , aahh just asked mi esposa ( rola ) 2 ways to take that phrase, seriuosly or sarcatic, excuse my english , long time away forget the basics, but a very interesting topic , I teach english but this sort of stuff can bog you down, ha,

Lucas Freley says on Sep 21, 2007, 20:56:

Leeroy, this topic is also in this link: Rocinante explains it very well.
http://poorbuthappy.com/learn_spanish/post/how-common-is-vosotros-in-c...

Rocinante said: "In the Medellín, Manizales etc... Paisa region, Vos is used extensively - this is NOT vosotros. In these areas of CO guys hardly ever address each other as Tu. They go from Ud to Vos in pretty much the same sentence. If two guys are out having a few drinks in a bar and they are talking to each other as Tu they will be thought of as gay. Tu is pretty much used to address women that are not Usted, and children. If you are planning on living in Paisa-ville you must use Vos. If you are just visiting, Tu and Usted and Ustedes is just fine."

La campiña, about your question of "tus gafas", tu is both a pronoun and a preposition (like the example).

Depronto, I have a pereirana friend (paisa) and she doesn't like when I talk "de usted". I ask her why, and she said that is like to make distance between us. But in other parts of Colombia is more common the Usted. About the term "marica", is common that some guys use it, only joking. For example: "No seas cagon"; or "Dale trolo (marica) q llegamos tarde".

Hoy que estás esplendida y que todo lo iluminas, demos un paseo, vuelta por el Universo (Gustavo Cerati)

la campiña says on Sep 21, 2007, 21:02:

Marica is very popular here in Cali, and yes it does mean gay, PERO not amongst friends, it's like mate, mijo o mija, mijito, mijita, also it'snot unusual to hear women say "Hombre" to each other , mate , buddy is the same. 5 years ago , my first time in colombia i lived in Buga with a fantastic family, when the family came round with kids called Juan Carmelo o Juan Carlos it freaked me out to hear the parents call the kids " Juanca" sounds like Wanker in english a slang term for masterbation made me laugh, but hay thats education and learning diferent cultures, I'm still learning, ( but it was very funny) imagine calling your little loved ones wanka, sorry, you had to be thier , also imagine living in Buga for 7 months !!!! well I did it, applause later, gracias and not been religious phew That was a gig, but thats where I gained my respect for colombians, Campasinos, keep rokin" Have I got some stories

bartolo_colon says on Sep 21, 2007, 21:13:

Oh, this is a funny string. I also am baffled by the tu and usted while in Colombia, and I generally revert to formal spanish, and just try to be polite. Marica, also baffled me at first, and also cracked me up big time the way Colombians use the word. It normally translates to sissy or queer in other countries, but as far as I can tell its a catchall slang word in Colombia that can mean anything from motherfucker to dickhead or cocksucker, fuckhead, douchbag, fucker, bitch etc. I find it very usefull and amusing while in Colombia, I reccomend that all newbies use the word "marica" as often as possible when they arrive in country, heck use it at passport control and customs and while sorting out your hotel accomodations or ordering soup, also slipping in a few tu's if possible. I often slip up and use marica while in other spanish speaking countries like the D.R. and Panama, people look at you like you just shit in there cereal, good times.

Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!

la campiña says on Sep 21, 2007, 21:49:

Bartolo while in colombia, did you not read my above thread,

miamimike says on Sep 22, 2007, 06:31:

here in Miami everyone from the Archbishop or President of the USA down to the lowly street Bum is "TU"-Miami Cubans speak the Worst Spanish in the Spanish speaking world, No Lie!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

john_stark says on Sep 22, 2007, 06:50:

I'm down with the Cubans and bad Spanish. I tutear everybody although I usually manage to get a usted out for my mother-in-law, Dona Mal Genio.

de pronto says on Sep 22, 2007, 09:04:

ok Lucas thank you for your comment, my friend uses "usted" when she is mad, but I never thought that "usted" could mean anything else than respect.

La campiña although my mother tongue is spanish, I've had a lot of funny experiences with the idiom or slang thing, and I still laugh when I remember them.

I remember my first night in Bogotá, me and my friend's family were having a cup of coffee and they were showing me the colombian coins and bills, but I did not understand how their system worked, I was trying to figure out how much was 50,000 colombian pesos in mexican pesos, so I told them: "no entiendo nada, ya me hice bolas" they all stared at me and began to laugh. But later that night when they told me "no dé papaya" I blushed, because for me "dar papaya" is like having sex with anybody in the street.

The same thing happened to me with an argentinian friend of mine, so it's pretty funny to share our culture as latins.

... y viaje a Macondo todo pagado

manINred says on Sep 22, 2007, 09:57:

Vos:
In Medellin just use 'vos' with everyone and you'll be fine.

Usted:
Use 'usted' to figures of high authority like abuelos, mothers-in-law, etc... Usted is also used amongst friends from time to time, but you can hear the difference in tone from the usted used to bosses (for example). Marica/maricon I found was generally used derogatorily.

Tu:
The only constant use of 'tu' that I heard in Paisaland was between novios, but when fights broke out 'tu' instantly became 'vos' then if things got particularly bad 'vos' became 'usted'. Tu was occasionally used between friends.

Now with my Mexican friends here, it's all 'tu'. Vos doesn't even exist and it's a bit strange to use 'usted'.

Leeroy says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:10:

"it's a bit strange to use 'usted'"

In 2 years in Spain I heard "usted" about 3 times.

LA_MONA says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:32:

Well in Colombia if your spanish isn't too advanced I'd say go with "usted".

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

LA_MONA says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:36:

When I am in spain I try to tutear but it doesn't feel natural, so I use usted, I get funny looks but so what let them deal with it.

Just like when I said to a maintenance guy at a bus station in Spain:
Perdon me puede decir donde queda el baño por favor?

And he answered me "el baño estara en tu casa pero si buscas los servicios estan ahi a la izquierda"

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

webmanco says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:38:

It does not matter what you use, just never said anything like

Y usted como estas?

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

LA_MONA says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:45:

webmanco jaja true.

In Cali they also use vos.

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

morphus says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:25:

"tu" works fine. Its not like they won't understand. My Peruvian girl always uses "vos". She's says my Spanish is very crude. Hey, I learned in Cuba. Like when I say "Los viejos". She gets angry and says its "las personas mayores".

LA_MONA says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:27:

Sounds like a very fun girl you have there ;-)

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

msaucey says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:37:

Morph.. Tell her that the older people are referred as.... Los de la tercer edad.... hee-hee

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

LA_MONA says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:38:

Yeah Morph say to her "Los Cuchos" she'll love it!!

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2007, 13:46:

Mucho cuidado jovencitos.....

Saludes,
Desi
(de la tercera edad jejejejeje)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

goin_south says on Sep 22, 2007, 19:27:

She gets angry ???

damn morphus; you need to tell her, 'hace perdida' and a more mild mannered gf

and, thank you.

Plato says on Sep 22, 2007, 21:29:

"Y usted como estas?" LOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!! Webmanco - Good one!! LMAO!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Plato says on Sep 22, 2007, 21:32:

Didn't know that if one tutea in Paisaland, you'll be taken for a homo.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

goin_south says on Sep 22, 2007, 21:38:

con mi pastusa, it has always been: 'usted'

with a very conservative girl/lady in Bogota, antes mi pastusa: it was always 'tu'

and, thank you.

Plato says on Sep 22, 2007, 21:49:

My house is full of paisas from my father's side - it was always vos and usted while growing up in Queens. Although my mother's side is from Barranquilla, I never grew up with "tu". The cachaco influence was always stronger.

In recent years, I've been using "tu" more often now since it's more common among my friends from other Latin countries, except Argentines. Using vos with Latins from other countries except Argentines sounds a bit nutty to them. Also, it just cracks me up to learn from this thread the paisas think you're a homo if you "tu" them. Never knew that.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

webmanco says on Sep 23, 2007, 05:59:

When you are close to someone like your lover, 95% of the couples use tú, I over heard once a couple on the mobile phone,

"bueno si usted lo dice entonces me quedo en Colombia", como usted diga

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Saltador says on Sep 23, 2007, 06:44:

Probably the most discouraging thread ever for us newbies trying to learn spanish.
Just great.

webmanco says on Sep 23, 2007, 07:57:

No os preocupéis Saltador

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Miguel says on Sep 23, 2007, 09:50:

"No os preocupéis Saltador" (webmanco)
Eso es mejor que "y usted ¿cómo estás?" jejeje

No te preocupes, Saltador. "La práctica lo hace todo."

Plato says on Sep 23, 2007, 11:37:

Trust me, to non-paisas (except Argentines, Uruguayos, Maracuchos, etc.) we sound like Don Quijote to the majority of Spanish-speaking people whether we use vos or vosotros. It’s all the same to them.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Lucas Freley says on Sep 23, 2007, 11:57:

Plato in Paraguay and some parts of Chile they use the "vos". The vosotros only is used in Spain. I don't know any southamerican country that use this term. We use Ustedes.

Well, if you don't want to be the Don Quijote & Sancho Panza, begun to use Tu (to ladies) or Usted (to other people) ton non-paisas.;)

Hoy que estás esplendida y que todo lo iluminas, demos un paseo, vuelta por el Universo (Gustavo Cerati)

Plato says on Sep 23, 2007, 12:51:

Thanks Lucas. I knew I should have added Paraguay and Chile. I even thought about some areas of Bolivia. What do you think?

I love Don Quijote and Sancho Panza because I don't mind people thinking of me being quixotic (in other words, absolutely nutty! LOL!). I'm not too much of the conformist type anyway.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

manINred says on Sep 23, 2007, 13:11:

Don't forget Uruguay!

Serious_Jo says on Sep 23, 2007, 13:19:

About the use of Marica:

All my students use it, but is only between them. If an stranger comes to call them "Hey Marica", for sure they will feel offended. Comming from an stranger, the word "marica" is an insult, comming from a friend, is just another way to call each other. Sometimes even my sister tells me "Oiga marica", even when that's a word you use for gays.
In short words, Marica is only for young people, somebody older than 35 tend to look funny (or even stupid) if they use it.

Regarding the "tu"and "usted".

I never address anybody in my family using "tu", not even with my brother or reason, because it sounds artificial to needs more closeness with somebody that already knows you. However there are many families in which the use of "tu" is a mean to express closeness and then "usted" is something you use when you are terribly mad at somebody.
And since I never really know how people like to be addressed to (and I'm colombian), I decided long time to wait and see how the other person address to me and follow their treatment.
So, if they tell me, Hola como estás?, then I answer, "Muy bien gracias, y TU? Otherwise, is always usted.

And in the cases I have to say hello first, I always use "Usted". Is more respectful no matter what. Of course, if is a younger person (like a teenager or a kid) or if I want to be condescending, then I use "TU".

Easy, right?

PS. Another hint is given by the region from which the person comes. People from Tolima, always use "Usted". People from Pasto, use "Tu". People from the north coast tend to use "TU'. People from the Llanos and Santander, use "Usted" (even with the bf/gf). The younger people from Bogota, use "Tu". And people from the coffee zone and Valle, use "Tú"and "Vos" but not between men. My sister just made me notice that the people who is considered to have a strong temper (santander, llanos) will use "Usted" most of the time.

Plato says on Sep 23, 2007, 13:23:

Serious Jo - nice post. Thanks!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

Lucas Freley says on Sep 23, 2007, 14:55:

Yes Plato, in some parts of Bolivia they talk with "vos". When I was a child I only believe that Argentina and Uruguay where the only that uses the vos. But when I begun to travel I found that we are not the ones. A really surprise to me.
You made me laugh with the nutty...haha...because this happens to me too...haha. So I understand your point.
In the other hand, Serious Jo explained the topic in a very good way. Thanks.

Hoy que estás esplendida y que todo lo iluminas, demos un paseo, vuelta por el Universo (Gustavo Cerati)

goin_south says on Sep 23, 2007, 23:54:

People from Pasto, use "Tu".

No.

Proving once again, as I have witnessed before, that not evern language teachers in Colombia know wtf they are talking about... but... (talking, they are.)
Hola Serious_Jo!
I'm sure most of the rest of the stuff you wrote up there was accurate.

But, this all ... this whole thread... with so much conflicting information, makes me think so many things are ABSOLUTELY INDIVIDUAL AND PER FAMILY... immediate community, rather than per REGION, OR CITY.

and, thank you.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 24, 2007, 03:53:

Also, "tu" is not that common in Cali, except among very young people who want to sound "hip". The traditional Caleño family uses "Usted" even when addressing the dog. "Vos" is used extensively in poorer barrios strata 1-3 but not above that. Some people who would always use "Usted" when talking to each other (children to their parents, parents to children , between spouses, with neghbours, teachers etc) sometimes use "vos" in a condescending way when talking to their maids or produce vendor at the market.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Serious_Jo says on Sep 24, 2007, 04:22:

Hello, Going South,

Was it necessary to be so mean to me?. Its true that I live in Bogota, but I know a lot of people from Pasto (well, Nariño in general). You just have to go to the National University to find a bunch of pastusos. And all of them talked to me using Tu. I even found 3 pastusos out of Colombia, and when they noticed I was talking in Spanish, once again they addressed to me using the tu. And few years ago, when I stayed with my family in Pasto for a week, that was the use. So maybe I ran into generalizing, but in my experience, all of them used tu, and that has nothing to do with my profession as a teacher. So please, be nice.

And Des,
Thank you for clarifying the use in Cali. Is true I mostly met poor people and university students there, so that was my basis to talk about Tu and Vos in that area. But once again, thanks.

webmanco says on Sep 24, 2007, 04:42:

Also you would not ask

Que TeTas comiendo?

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

LA_MONA says on Sep 24, 2007, 05:07:

DESI "Also, "tu" is not that common in Cali, except among very young people who want to sound "hip". The traditional Caleño family uses "Usted" even when addressing the dog."

Yes that is my experience in a valluno family, even between my husband nd myself it's "usted".

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

Plato says on Sep 24, 2007, 05:09:

Mejor ser huevón que estúpido.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

gato-bandido says on Sep 24, 2007, 07:41:

Wikipedia so confirming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=sumercé&fulltext=S..., http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:Search?search=sumercé&fulltext=...), sumercé is mostly a bogotano and cundiboyacense thing.

My wife addresses her female friends and family members as either sumercé or usted constantly. But her father is usted (and so is the (male) dog) and I am tú.

Her father also addresses her mother and other female family members as sumercé or usted.

Serious_Jo says on Sep 24, 2007, 08:50:

Qué amabilidad Rubito! Muchas gracias.

Lisa Zee says on Sep 24, 2007, 10:29:

WEBMANCO: Que te tas comiendo, que te tas engordando... LOL

goin_south says on Sep 24, 2007, 12:54:

Come on Rubio. Your a gentleman and a scholar, and it's true Jo, he's one of the most kind-hearted of all on pbh.

disculpa, Jo. I have been to Pasto also, and been talking to one of them every day for more than a few years, and to a handful of them, now and then, and we (you and me) jus disagree.
welcome to Pbsh.

"makes me think so many things are ABSOLUTELY INDIVIDUAL AND PER FAMILY... immediate community, rather than per REGION, OR CITY."

and, thank you.