The picture perfect rescue unravels: Colombia admits rescuers posed as journalists

Cheers Terry says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:02:

"... The picture perfect rescue unravels..." is a gross overstatement.

So a few of the rescuers posed as nutbar Venezuela journalists. It might not have been the smartest move (the Reporters Without Borders spokesperson has a point) but really, in the big scheme of things, big frigging deal.

Much ado about nothing...

Cheers,
Terry

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august says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:10:

Ah yes, essentially using non-aligned parties (health workers, media) as human shields. Nice plan. I suppose Uribe is going to personally ensure the safety of those parties in the future now that their non-aligned status is compromised?

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Cheers Terry says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:14:

"... essentially using non-aligned parties (health workers, media) as human shields..."

More hyperbole. Yawn.

Cheers,
Terry

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tasco66 says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:20:

Yep, posing as Farc supporters was a great idea

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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august says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:28:

OK, so this means you guys will have no problem, putting on TeleSur and Red Cross outfits and walking into your nearest FARC encampment? You know, just to see what happens?

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Mononoke28 says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:35:

I like how Uribe says he'll take responsibility for anything once everything is said and done. He did that after the bombings in Ecuador and now after the small details of Jaque are coming out.

I'm with him on this one, what are they gonna do? Bottom line is that Reyes is dead and the hostages are free. Done.

Diana

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tasco66 says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:35:

"OK, so this means you guys will have no problem, putting on TeleSur and Red Cross outfits and walking into your nearest FARC encampment?"

Yep, if it’s to save hostages I would have no problem

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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august says on Jul 24, 2008, 09:43:

I love the GI Joes here. Do you guys live in reality? Are you able to visualize a Colombia after all the hostages are freed? What does it look like? I really want to know. How is it possible to be so narrowed in on one tiny detail of the entire picture?

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tomass says on Jul 24, 2008, 11:42:

I wonder would the rescue mission have been given the go-ahead at all without using these independent disguises. I doubt it. Of course the end justifies the means and the political kudos to be gained by realising the freeing of this high profile bunch made the calculation pretty simple.
The calculation would have been different I suspect if the raid was for the purpose of freeing ordinary secuestrados.
Of course the ´damage´ is now done.

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Mononoke28 says on Jul 24, 2008, 11:46:

Nah, there's no damage to speak of. =D

Diana

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Colombiareports.com says on Jul 24, 2008, 11:50:

I am happy Betancourt is free, but being a journalist I really don't understand guys like Mononoke28 as Tasco66 who don't see the consequences of actions like this. The bottom line is NOT that Reyes is dead and Betancourt is free. they are steps in a process, of which most press coverage was highly orchestrated by the government and the army.

I know most of us live in nice apartment buildings, we are not black or indigenous and live far from the jungles and mountains where the war is. Most of you probably are not journalists and some of you may even think us journalists are a bunch of attention seeking dicks. Fine.

But please look a little further than your personal sense of victory about the (beautiful) rescue of Betancourt. We journalists simply are trying to tell you stories that you may not have heard yet and believe me, the Colombian government is not making our job any easier.

I, as a journalist and an inhabitant of beautiful Colombia, hopes the government wins the war against the FARC, but I do want to live in a democratic Colombia. Not a Colombia that resembles Havana, Cuba before the revolution, where only a bunch of rich people can live their life behind fences, while the general population are confronted with disappearances, paramilitary drug violence and a corrupt government.

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Mononoke28 says on Jul 24, 2008, 11:56:

No one is saying anything about journalists, at least not me. But I'm more focused on the end result and not what the militaries pretended to be to a whole bunch of guerilleros. In fact, I don't think anybody who read the news thought journalists were to blame. We all knew it was all fake and nobody thinks that journalists were portrayed badly.

Heck, even the Red Cross said that the important thing was the end result and dropped it.

Diana

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Colombiareports.com says on Jul 24, 2008, 12:05:

The point is that this is not the end of it all. After the FARC has been defeated, we journalists will have to continue working, human rights will still be violated. While defeating the FARC the Colombian government and the army should simply not disregards the interests and rights of others. I am incredibly happy Betancourt is free, I really am, but there IS no end result. The rescue of Betancourt was just one step in the history of Colombia. Colombia can beat the FARC easily, while at the same time respecting the freedom of press, not killing innocent peasants, respecting human rights, etc.

Sorry my reaction's a bit passionate, but I don't think many of you understand how hard it is being a journalist in this country, without the government (again) disregarding the simple space a journalist needs to be able to do his humble job.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 24, 2008, 12:39:

I've read the Geneva conventions a couple times and nowhere did I see that it's a violation to imitate journalists.

I can understand, though I don't share, the upset about imitating the Red Cross. But the reputation of journalists as a group is far from sacred and, frankly, they live in a giant glass house when it comes to imitating other people to achieve an end. Just look back at history at the number of journalists who were also intelligence agents, and any outrage over this bit falls apart.

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tasco66 says on Jul 24, 2008, 12:45:

"Colombia can beat the FARC easily"???

Well that's news to me

"Colombia can beat the FARC easily, while at the same time respecting the freedom of press, not killing innocent peasants, respecting human rights, etc."

Can you name me any war where the freedom of press and human rights were respected and no innocent were killed?

Look I would love it if what you said was possible, unfortunately the reality is I am afraid quite different.

If you don’t believe me go cover the war in Iraq or go to Palestine, Tibet etc. and you'll see what I mean

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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lanegrapaisa says on Jul 24, 2008, 12:47:

Again with this? the army could dress in drag for all I care, if it helps the hostages.

When did the guerrilla ever respect the Geneva convention or care for the safety of anybody?.
How would you feel if you were held hostage and nobody would come to your rescue because it might upset some people that you posed as a journalist or a red cross member?

I understand it is difficult being a journalist in this country and I admire your work but I think it must be just a tad harder to be a hostage.

oh that cement is just, it's there for the weight, dear

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tasco66 says on Jul 24, 2008, 12:52:

"How would you feel if you were held hostage and nobody would come to your rescue because it might upset some people that you posed as a journalist or a red cross member?"

Good question.

And let's not forget it's Telesur that we are talking about here, the Chavista propaganda arm. They are anything but journalists…

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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Mononoke28 says on Jul 24, 2008, 13:04:

Of course the whole thing is not over and it won't be over even if all hostages are freed and the FARC comes to an end. The world keeps moving, we all keep living and new things will come up. What I meant is that the whole Jaque issue is over and I don't understand why people keep beating a dead horse with the whole Telesur journalist stuff. Like tasco66 said, their Chavistas anyway.

Diana

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Colombiareports.com says on Jul 24, 2008, 13:42:

at Tasco66,
The "easily" was a bit overdone, I admit. :-)

No, I can not name a war where human rights were respected and the freedom of press was peachy creamy, but don't you think we should support the armed forces and at the same time ask them to respect human rights and let journalists and aid workers do their job? We don't live in a police state, do we?

at Mononoke28,
My point exactly was that even after Jaque is over the conflict continues, so during any temporary operation one should consider the consequences after.

at lanegrapaisa,
You are turning things around. Just because the FARC commit war crimes, doesn't give the Armed Forces the right to do the same. They're not a terrorist organization, are they?

How I would feel if no one came to the rescue, because people like me would be upset? I would feel extremely pissed off and frankly wouldn't give a f*ck what guys like me would think, but that's not the issue. The Red Cross thing was an individual error, like Uribe admitted and he apologized for. Posing as journalists wasn't even slightly essential for the operation. the operation was a wonderful thing and carried out, apparently not perfectly, but definitely incredibly intelligently. The operation could've gone equally well, without ignoring international law and values.

In a country, where the hostages and the FARC aren't the only problems (corruption, drug trafficking, human rights violations and murders by security forces, unemployment, the murder on union workers and journalists, paramilitary involvement in politics) it is quite important to protect the freedom of press.

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tomass says on Jul 24, 2008, 13:56:

The beauty of an American education rears its ugly short-sighted gung-ho myopic head in many of the above posts. Go blasting in with little fore-thought and sort em out. And that will be the end of it. It never is. And many would say it only makes things worse.
The actions of a truly democratic state should be held accountable to standards that are a touch higher. Its a game of politics with these people first and foremost. Exactly the same is prevalent unfortunately in the institutions and empresas in this country. A great pity because as always its the decent and innocent that always suffer the consequences.

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tasco66 says on Jul 24, 2008, 14:00:

“but don't you think we should support the armed forces and at the same time ask them to respect human rights and let journalists and aid workers do their job"

Of course we should.

I don’t know if you have served in the military, but from my own experience when you put a uniform on some "modefoque" and give him a weapon and power over somebody else, suddenly his worst sadistic side seems to come out. It’s a very sad fact of life.

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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august says on Jul 24, 2008, 15:12:

All the more reason to NOT rely on the military to solve the armed conflict. Time will tell. Let us just wait and see.

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tasco66 says on Jul 24, 2008, 15:24:

Unfortunately negotiating with terrorists has never worked and Colombia is a good example of this.

And don’t get me started on the Swiss and French negotiators…

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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tomass says on Jul 24, 2008, 16:00:

and there you have it - the word 'terrorists' -- the world is so simple. Put everyone in a convenient box - and feel good with your righteous self and have a nice sleep.

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lanegrapaisa says on Jul 24, 2008, 16:40:

Tomass: "and there you have it - the word 'terrorists' -- the world is so simple. Put everyone in a convenient box - and feel good with your righteous self and have a nice sleep."
Please elaborate, do you not think guerrillas are terrorists?

Colombiareports: Yes! freedom of press should always be protected. This operation was not without flaws but FARC only respects journalists when it's convenient for them it seems to me, otherwise they would have never killed any.

oh that cement is just, it's there for the weight, dear

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Gator says on Jul 24, 2008, 17:08:

August said, "All the more reason to NOT rely on the military to solve the armed conflict."

Who else, pray tell, solves armed conflict; the third battalion of the Little Sisters of the Poor?

War is a terrible thing, but not the most terrible thing. A person who thinks nothing is worth a war is worse. For he is a miserable creature who is kept free only through the exertions of better men than himself.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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billyb says on Jul 24, 2008, 17:31:

August said, "All the more reason to NOT rely on the military to solve the armed conflict."

Gator said, "Who else, pray tell, solves armed conflict; the third battalion of the Little Sisters of the Poor?"

jaja, My thoughts exactly gator. August must also think that we shouldn't rely on teachers to educate our children.

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juancegomez says on Jul 24, 2008, 19:15:

Those who were "posing" were doing so in the context of a fake "international mission" linked to a non-existent organization, not simply dropping some journalists and other personnel out of the blue into some FARC camp.

In other words, those disguises gave more credibility to the operation, but the act in itself wasn't limited to that by any means, nor were those the main elements. We've known that since the beginning, more or less. The specific details don't change that.

A generic fake journalist is little different from a fake teleSur journalist, in terms of what impact it may or may not have on the ability of other reporters to talk to FARC.

Now, it's true that this might increase risks for others, and whatever responsibility is proportionally applicable will be assigned in time through later events, but it's not like those risks didn't exist beforehand.

In fact, if you ask me from a purely cold-hearted perspective, it would have been better for Colombia to hide as much information as possible about this rescue, to reduce those risks even if they remained offenses on a moral level. Or not engage in such deceptions in the first place, but that debate is pointless now, isn't it?

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romy says on Jul 24, 2008, 21:19:

I came late to the party... but I completely agree with Colombiareports. It's not hard to tell that a legit force should follow certain rules/laws/understandings/ethics/morals. If the FARC want to continue dehumanizing society that's their problem and why their existence is meaningless.

Juance- that is very "cold" and not reasonable... The public needs to know all the details to understand the type of people they have put in office. Freedom of information is key in my books.

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Lcacique says on Jul 24, 2008, 21:46:

I have no real problem with the military posing as journalists or NGOs to carryout the rescue. Going forward, I agree that it probably will make life more difficult for people associated with either entity (god knows they are already targets)...This is terribly unfortunate because most journalists and people involved with NGOs are honest citizens who are fighting in their own way to make Colombia a better country.

Personally, I feel there are times when military tactics are necessary; however, to say that negotiations never work is ridiculous. When dealing with such multifaceted problems it is necessary to employ a complex array of techniques. Muscle is part of the solution, but muscles do not function without the use of the brain.

As for the comment that we should tolerate, ignore, or even worse, accept the abuses committed by the legitimate military in complicated situations like the conflict in Colombia...I have to disagree wholeheartedly. This quote sums it up for me:

"State use of 'draconian military force' is unacceptable because it suspends democratic rights and allows terrorist groups a victory at the expense of democratic institutions." ~ Paul Wilkinson.

Criticizing Colombia's government for its links to the paramilitary is absolutely necessary and it should be carried out relentlessly. Prosecuting individuals with ties to these organizations should be a huge priority, at the very least, because they have made a mockery of Colombia's government and its institutions. Punishing the servicemen who have participated in human rights violations is an obvious necessity for any worthy military that is supposedly working to protect the lives of the citizenry. Where I get confused is how some individuals twist this logic into somehow meaning that we should overlook the crimes committed by the FARC. Why is it that when someone mentions issues like I have discussed above, another individual has to come along and accuse them of being soft on the FARC...or worse a sympathizer of the FARC? That is completely ridiculous.

Good night...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Buongone says on Jul 25, 2008, 00:45:

You as a reporter, why would you even want to talk with some terrorists? To make money, Right? Greedly people need to get a life. Not by talking about some Killers point of view. Kinda like the Farc killing people to get their land so they can grow coca. Make cocaine and get rich from it. Journalism is good to an point. Cross that point and you have a bunch of pissed off people everywhere. You should have known that being a reporter was going to be dangerous. Getting on this post and expressing your thoughts is not going to make your job any more safe.

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romy says on Jul 25, 2008, 03:26:

OPP officer posed as journalist during 2007 Mohawk protest
CBC, media groups protest tactic
Last Updated: Thursday, July 24, 2008 | 9:29 AM ET
CBC News

An OPP officer pretended to be a news reporter at a Mohawk protest that prompted the closure of a major rail line and Highway 401 in eastern Ontario during last year's Aboriginal Day of Action, CBC News has learned.

The officer's tactics have emerged from testimony recently made public when a judge overturned a publication ban on the preliminary hearing for Mohawk protester Shawn Brant.

Observers and media organizations, including the CBC, are protesting the tactic of police posing as journalists, saying it makes reporters' jobs more difficult and more dangerous.

Const. Steve Martell testified last August that he pretended to be a journalist on the evening of June 28, 2007, and got so close to the barricades that he recognized some protesters' faces.

"You were acting in an undercover capacity, as you've told us, and you had a video camera," Brant's defence lawyer, Peter Rosenthal, asked him during his appearance in a Napanee, Ont., court.

"What were you pretending to be?"

"I just pretended to be part of the media," Martell replied.
'There's no real guidelines': Martell testifies

Martell told the court it was his idea to pose as a cameraman and he did not discuss the plan with a superior officer.

When Rosenthal asked whether the OPP had any guidelines for undercover officers as to what roles they can or cannot play when they are undercover, Martell testified that officers are instructed only to refrain from illegal activity.

"So, as role-wise, there's no real guidelines," he said.

"But isn't there a concern that if officers pretend to be media, that might interfere with freedom of the press in some sense? Have you ever heard any such concern?" Rosenthal asked.

"No," Martell answered.
Police used tactic at Ipperwash standoff

It is not the first time that OPP officers have posed as journalists. Videotape recorded during an aboriginal occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park in 1995 shows reporters questioning undercover officers pretending to be a camera crew a day before an OPP sniper shot and killed protester Dudley George.

"You guys shooting for someone?" one of the reporters asks one of the officers.

"Freelancing," he replies.

When asked specifically who he's working for, he tells reporters: "UPA."

"What's it stand for?"

"United Press Associates," the officer replies, but no such organization exists.

When the videotape came to light four years ago, the OPP promised to "revisit" the tactic, but based on evidence presented ahead of Brant's trial, it appears the force has not stopped using it.
Tactic a concern for public: reporters' group

John Miller, a journalism professor at Toronto's Ryerson University, said police posing as reporters is highly disturbing.

"That's going to make it more difficult for legitimate media to get interviews with the people at the centre of a dispute," he told CBC News.

It's not only a matter of concern for the media, but also for the public, said Mary-Agnes Welch, president of the Canadian Association of Journalists.

"They look to us to try to get sort of behind the scenes and have as much access as we can to tell them what's happening," she told CBC News. "And if we can't talk freely to the people we need to talk to, the average person out there won't get the full breadth of the story."

The CAJ is calling on police forces across Canada to stop impersonating journalists. The CBC is also protesting the tactic.

Last year, an officer in Vancouver lured an anti-Olympics protester to his arrest by posing as a reporter.

Brant faces several charges, including mischief, and could be sentenced to up to 12 years in prison if convicted. His trial in Napanee, Ont., is scheduled to begin in January.

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august says on Jul 25, 2008, 06:38:

Gator, I can´t recall a single armed conflict that was actually solved by an armed force. At worst, continuing the use of armed solutions merely aggravates a conflict. At best, armed forces push and compel the opposing armed force to act in a certain way. Ultimately though it comes down to acting like adults and using the brain to bring mutual interests into alignment - even if that means one side of the conflict giving in. Think about it. Or if you really feel passionately about your position, find some way to go enlist and fight it out for Colombia. Then you can show me I´m wrong.

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billyb says on Jul 25, 2008, 06:52:

"Gator, I can´t recall a single armed conflict that was actually solved by an armed force"

hmmm, WWII comes to mind, or was that one solved by negotiators from switzerland also? Oh, that's right, the swiss were too busy getting rich trading with the nazis.

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august says on Jul 25, 2008, 07:06:

Yeah that one worked out pretty well. Billyb, are you aware of the death toll of WWII? Are you really wishing something comparable upon Colombia? Have we really not learned anything from that or evolved as humans?

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billyb says on Jul 25, 2008, 07:10:

What would your solution to WWII have been? Surrender? Typical.LOL.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 25, 2008, 07:14:

August, your statement might be more accurate if it were limited to internal political conflicts.

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august says on Jul 25, 2008, 07:23:

billyb, I wouldn´t have watched it fester into a full blown international armed conflict. But I think WWII is pretty difficult to compare to the situation in Colombia.

doc, I never said I´m a reporter. I´m not sure what you´re talking about. What sort of pics do you want though?

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tomass says on Jul 25, 2008, 07:25:

Looks like we´ve strayed a long way with this one.
The 'shades of grey' as tejas would say are more than evident in colombia on all sides.
All too often tactics employed by the govt are copied and permeate society as the norm - that is the sad fact and has been going on for far too long.
Not all the people who emigrate do so for being displaced. I would sugest a substantial number do so due to the powerful stinking 'politica' they have to endure in their ordinary working life.
Certainly all the institutions but even private enterprises are infected with this disease.

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tasco66 says on Jul 25, 2008, 08:08:

WWII is a perfect example

Nazi Germany could have easily been defeated with little human loss before it became a formidable war machine. Unfortunately, the negotiators and appeasers were convinced they could get a peaceful resolution to the violations of the Versailles Treaty

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 25, 2008, 09:00:

tasco66 says on Jul 25, 2008, 09:42:

I got to move to that forum...

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 25, 2008, 09:59:

deathnova says on Jul 25, 2008, 11:10:

I suppose they should have just arrived in Mickey Mouse costumes?

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romy says on Jul 25, 2008, 11:55:

jorge- are you serious? I took you for smarter than that... you do see the difference no?

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Colombiareports.com says on Jul 25, 2008, 19:01:

Sorry I was out of the discussion for a while :-)

Docwilliam, I am as biased as any human being. I'm not even pretending I'm not. I really am not interested in a being biased discussion though every time someone brings news a person doesn't want to hear. Besides, being critical doesn't mean being anti.

I think you misunderstood my words. I never said the Colombian government wasn't democratically elected. When I said I do want to live in a democratic Colombia I meant that I want Colombia to respect international law and not violate human rights. Is that too biased already?

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billyb says on Jul 25, 2008, 19:51:

Creports, the thing is that most of us would agree that in a perfect world, the sacrosantity of neutral symbols such as the Red Cross and the Press would be respected, but, alas, we dont live in a perfect world where things are ideal and hard choices must be made. Uribe and his military made that hard choice of fudging a little on the alleged neutrality of these entities ( I say alleged neutrality, because nobody here besides romy actually thinks that Telesur is a legititmate and neutal news source). It wasn't done so the Colombian army could ambush and kill scores of FARC fighters, it was done to rescue people who have been held in the jungle for up to 10 years, chained to trees by their necks. They (the FAC) even chose to let the FARC fighters left on the ground live, as they could easily have wiped them out as the FAC had dozens of copters within striking distance. Now my question to you, as well as to those other handwringers who think this is the worst crime ever commited against humanity. Would you, in Uribe's position, have allowed the operation to go ahead and freed these fifteen people from their misery, or stuck by some abstract code of ethics that no other fighting force gives a rat's ass about and let these people rot in the jungle?

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romy says on Jul 25, 2008, 20:00:

Please quote when I said Telesur was neutral...

who said this was the "worst crime ever commited"?
Can BB make an argument without blatantly making up information?
I'm a man of ethics and morality, if I give my word to a certain code then I follow it. Separates the virtuous from the scum I believe.

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brit_fit says on Jul 25, 2008, 20:05:

lovers spat here with romy and billyb.............

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billyb says on Jul 25, 2008, 20:12:

jaja brit, no, just an ongoing argument between us philistines who are happy the hostages were released and mother teresa, recently reincarnated as "romy the good".

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billyb says on Jul 25, 2008, 20:14:

"I'm a man of ethics and morality, if I give my word to a certain code then I follow it'

but those ethics and moral code still don't stop you from posting articles from Telesur that you know (or should know if you have half a brain) were false.

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Colombiareports.com says on Jul 25, 2008, 20:59:

Hi billyb,

What may be an abstract code to you is not an abstract code to me at all, it being my field of work and all. I, when attempting journalism, I also stick to codes to at least try to show as many sides to a story as possible. I do understand the cynicism about the objectivity of journalists or media and in many cases I share the cynicism, but let's please agree it's the wide variety of (more or less biased) journalists that let us each form our opinion in a less ignorant way.

IF posing as journalists was crucial for the rescue I don't think I would be protesting. In this case I would find the rescue of these people well worth the extra work, effort and maybe even danger to journalists working in Colombia. The thing is, I don't see how it was crucial. And why defend an unnecessary evil?

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billyb says on Jul 25, 2008, 21:06:

Good points CR, but we don't know that those little "insignificant" touches were not crucial. So we just have to go with what we have, and that is the fact that it worked. So we might be correct to assume that those elements were germain to its success. And please don't think that i come from a point of view that is anti joournalist per say, but just that in this case I am willing to give the rescuers the benefit of the doubt. And I think we can both agree that this will have little effect on how the FARC respects humanitarian orgs and respect human right s in the future. They will pay lip srvice to the ideal when it serves their purpose and they will kil unarmed, wounded soldiers in red cross ambulances when it serves their purposes. So that is why I say this is an exercise in abstracism.

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Kamran says on Jul 26, 2008, 10:28:

The FARC had fattened up Betencourt with food and medicine in anticipation for her release, months of talks between Europeans and the FARC took place allegedly culminating in a $20 million pay off...time will tell but there does seem to be more to the story that might hurt its Holywood Box Office potential :)

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tasco66 says on Jul 27, 2008, 07:59:

"months of talks between Europeans and the FARC took place allegedly culminating in a $20 million pay off"

I very much doubt the European would pay $20 million for the release of the hostages to see Uribe get all the credit, actually come to think of it, this is impossible

These hostages were political hostages, in other words not heal for a ransom. Ingrid was the most important card the Farc had left in their hands. After this rescue they looked like fools. There is no way they took any money for this...

All the ransom stories originate from Uribe haters who can not accept that he was able to release Ingrid and the other hostages without a single shot fired. They have zero credibility

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 28, 2008, 10:41:

poco says on Jul 28, 2008, 16:35:

Quote: I'm a man of ethics and morality, if I give my word to a certain code then I follow it. Separates the virtuous from the scum I believe.
==========

Separates the righteous dead from the living.

Separates those that can squeal like a pig from those that don't require that knowledge.

Separates those that live in a hole and those that dig it.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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