The Palace of Justice

Gator says on Aug 24, 2004, 19:19:

M-19 started back when Rojas Pinilla was elected president in about 1970. M19 was not into narcotics but bank robbery and kidnapping for ransom.
Always a small group no more than 2000 but mean and very dedicated. M-19's downfall was the attack on the Palace of Justice in Bogota. A 106 persons including Supreme Court Justices were killed. After this public support just faded away and many people were so angry M-19 members were turned in.
My sister-in-law(now divorced) was married to one of the minor leaders and she opened my eyes..

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Gator says on Aug 25, 2004, 14:11:

I stand corrected Yes, the former military dictator, Rojas Pinilla, was denied an electoral victory by about 65,000 votes. Misael Pastrana was alleged to have won. Kinda the same feelings as Bush/Gore existed for some years. Thanks for catching that.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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maryuma says on Oct 12, 2004, 18:28:

m-19 the First thing is that in 1970 M-19 did not even exist as a group. This group came in to the public view in 1974 in january when they took Bolivar's sword as their symbol and, then, when they came to the political life it was gave back. Yes the called themselves like that because of what happened in April 19 of 1970 when Rojas Pinilla was not elected president, but the election of Pastrana as President was a complete fraud. And this also is known, but never anything was done in respect of.
Second thing. This group never was involved with narcotics and that has been proof any diferents times. Unfortunatelly in our country the impunity and the miss-information makes the peopple believe stories that are not truth and these are some of the reasons why today, 19 years later it has not been resolved the tragedy of the palace of justice.

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maryuma says on Oct 12, 2004, 18:35:

about radio transmissions. Yes, they are recorded and in fact they have been use as proof in the investigation of what happened that day. Unfortunatelly this case has not been resolved yet and one of the biggest reason is because of the trouble and obstruction it has been face by whoever try to investigate this case. Mrs Carrigan was really well informed and she did investigate as much as she could at that time about the tragedy.

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Neonovo says on Jan 6, 2005, 13:26:

The Palcacio de la Justicia according to Olga... On my last trip to Cali I picked up Noches de humo, by Olga Baher in the used book store Atenas, in el centro, close to the Aristi tower. I even dreamed about the whole mess while reading it. It would have been so very possible to settle the matter peacefully, but ill-will prevailed.

I understand that for her efforts to expose the truth, Olga Baher was forced into exile in Mexico, as a way to keep her life.

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juancegomez says on Jan 6, 2005, 18:08:

A sad, controversial and complex subject Not again...I'm not going to type my position all over again just because the website logged me out...To make a long story short....nobody can claim moral high ground here. Not the military, not the government, not the M-19. Everyone shares the responsibility for this bloody tragedy.

The M-19, if they had managed to humilliate the government and negotiate a succesful release of the hostages, would have continued their revolutionary struggle with renewed vigor. That's on the record by Gustavo Petro himself at the time, shortly after the operation.

Without their defeat and the death of many of their important members, they would not have sat down to negotiate with the government. Death is always a sad thing, but that doesn't change this.

Also, while it's clear that the M-19's operation in the Palace of Justice had no relationship with the druglords (THAT's been proved, yes, so Uribe was wrong on that point)...Antonio Navarro himself, in a recently published interview-book, tacitly admits that it was impossible for any illegal armed group to NOT have any sort of personal or business relationship with druglords at the time.

Perhaps the past relationship that the M-19 had with them has been exaggerated, for political purposes (just as Uribe's usually is), but to claim that it didn't exist AT ALL, outside the Palace of Justice operation, is not realistic.

And finally...the military shot first and carries more blood on its hands, but the M-19 also fired weapons inside the Palace of Justice, both at the military and at the hostages. Again, nobody is totally innocent here, except the civilian victims caught in the crossfire.

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Neonovo says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:22:

El Palacio de la injusticia... Of course "the M-19 also fired weapons inside the Palace of Justice...", in order to stave off the disproportionate counter attack. But the bullet that killed Alfonso Echandía (the president of the supreme court) was military issued, of a grade not in posession of the guerrilleros.

Echandía and His son had several anguished and desperate phone conversations with the sole purpose of stopping the barrage from the outside, but even an intimate family friend of the family, a top general, avoided them (the prez, the son, and the wife) finally showing up, to their gate in his military-issued puke-green Mercedes, to give his condolescenses for the "untimely death".

The mudafuka probably thought all he would have to say is "The gerrillas did it", but he didn't get a chance, because the Echandies never did open their gate to let him in.

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juancegomez says on Jan 7, 2005, 13:46:

.... "Of course "the M-19 also fired weapons inside the Palace of Justice...", in order to stave off the disproportionate counter attack."

Yes, that's certainly part of the situation and it's clear that the counterattack was disproportionate, I can't stress that enough.

But, for the sake of arguing, can you assure us, with not a single shred of doubt left, that any M-19 member did not shoot, accidently or not, voluntarily or not, a single civilian person they were holding inside the Palace of Justice, once the shooting started? Not even in anger or desperation? I don't think anyone can do so.

Again, it would be ludicrous to say the military didn't come in shooting aggressively and that it's bullets didn't kill many of the people inside, and that it must answer for that, but to reduce the M-19's role in the matter to mere victims that only fired in order to defend themselves doesn't seem exactly right either.

"But the bullet that killed Alfonso Echandía (the president of the supreme court) was military issued, of a grade not in posession of the guerrilleros."

Not stating anything to the contrary and I have said nothing on this specific case, thust I have no regrets or shame in blaming the military and the government for his death and that of others you or anyone could name. Their hands have their blood in them, that is evident.

But see above and my previous post. It seems you're only looking at one side of a multi-sided issue, apparently.

I'd also respectfully remind you that several other family members of the victims do blame the M-19, if not directly for the deaths per se, then for irresponsibly creating the situation as a whole and for putting their family members in deadly jeopardy in order to execute an unnecessary political publicitary stunt of national and international proportions that, ultimately, went wrong.

Yet again, the government and military have their share of blame and responsibility for the bloodshed that was caused by this tragic resolution as well, but the M-19 doesn't have a significantly higher moral ground nor totally clean hands.

Injustice can be found on the actions and omissions of both sides.

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vladimiro says on Jan 8, 2005, 08:28:

Navarro's Point of View Navarro's point of view from "Mi Guerra es La Paz"

Mato el M-19 a los magistrados en el Palacio de Justicia?

Navarro: No, y le voy explicar por que. En el cuarto piso murieron nueve magistrados, aparantemente como consequencia del incendio mas grande. El juez 30 hizo un analisis de rayos x de tres de esos magistrados - Alfonso Reyes Echandia, Jose Eduardo Gnecco y Ricardo Medina Monyano - y les encontro unos proyectiles. Medecina Legal hizo el estudio y concluyo que no habian sido disparados por las armas del M-19. Fijese ademas que Yesid Reyes dijo en la entravista a Yamid que el cree que su padre fallecio a causa de un disparo de la Fuerza Publica. El otro sitio donde murieron magistrados fue el bano que quedaba entro los pisos segundo y tercero...Segun el juez murierion por heridas de bala o granadas que no provenien de los guerilleros del M-19.

Regarding M-19 and narco connections Navarro makes the point that "Nosotros tuvimos la suerte de haber firmado la paz antes de que los cultivos ilicitos se volvieron del tamano que tienen hoy, asi tampoco hubo una financiacion por esa via".

And regarding why the M-19 supported a former military dictator that had repressed students, suppressed the opposition and censured the press:

"Es que los seres humanos evolucionan y asi paso con Rojas. El Rojas que nos parecia que debiamos reivindicar era el que habia luchado contra el Frente Nacional desde 1962 hasta 1970 y que habia sido capaz de capitalizar la incomformidad de la sociedad colombiana contra quienes la habian dirigido historicamente."

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juancegomez says on Jan 8, 2005, 09:49:

Re:_... "Navarro: No, y le voy explicar por que."

That's understandable, he's basing his arguments on specific cases that have available evidence, some of them that is, which points to military action, and those might even be the majority, but yet again I ask...can anyone assure us that ALL the civilians died from military bullets, 100%, every single one of them? Not even Navarro himself because he wasn't there at the time.

He's answering the general question and rebutting that the M-19 "killed the magistrates" as a whole, for the people that might subscribe to that idea, but he's not going into every single case because he can't possibly do that. Even if only one or two persons died because of the M-19 direct or indirect action, that's something else that he's not addressing.

"Regarding M-19 and narco connections Navarro makes the point that "Nosotros tuvimos la suerte de haber firmado la paz antes de que los cultivos ilicitos se volvieron del tamano que tienen hoy, asi tampoco hubo una financiacion por esa via"."

That's evident, but you should also quote one of the other paragraphs in which he says something that I roughly paraphrased above, as those two aren't mutually exclusive. I was not speaking about direct financing, which he denies and with reason, but about having any sort of relations, business or personal, at any level, and there's more on that subject than what's been quoted...

Here's an Otty Patiño quote on the same subject, which makes the point I was mentioning before:

"¿El M-19 nunca tuvo nexos con el narcotráfico?

La pregunta es: ¿Usted ha comprado alguna droga en Drogas La Rebaja? Ante ese monstruo que permeó toda la sociedad decir que en algún momento alguien no haya tenido un contacto o un nexo con el narcotráfico es casi imposible.

La pregunta es si tuvimos una relación de subordinación con sectores del narcotráfico y si les hicimos trabajos y la respuesta es definitivamente no. Una organización como la nuestra no iba a entrar en esa dinámica. Cuando nos desmovilizamos teníamos claro que seguir en la guerra significaba articularse frente al narcotráfico, que estaba en plena expansión, como lo demostraron los grupos de autodefensa que ya habían estado articulados, y las FARC."

http://www.viaalterna.com.co/index2.htm?http://www.viaalterna.com.co/palacio3.html

What he and Navarro deny, once again with reason behind them, is that the M-19 received financing from the drug lords and/or that they participated in or inspired the Palace of Justice operation. That's clear enough. But the possibility for other links of a different or lesser nature is left open.

"Es que los seres humanos evolucionan y asi paso con Rojas. El Rojas que nos parecia que debiamos reivindicar era el que habia luchado contra el Frente Nacional desde 1962 hasta 1970 y que habia sido capaz de capitalizar la incomformidad de la sociedad colombiana contra quienes la habian dirigido historicamente.""

There's no way to tell how much he had really changed because he didn't actually get to demonstrate it in practice as a ruler. What's relatively clear is that he most likely won the 1970 election but was apparently illegally prevented from winning.

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travb says on Apr 3, 2006, 20:01:

Please see:

Wikipedia palace of justice...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palace_of_Justice_siege

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Justice_siege

We would love all of your contributions to this article!

Here are some photos of the seige:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/palaceofjustice/sets/72057594076818424/

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