The New Refugees: Americans who give up citizenship to save on taxes

Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 4, 2005, 14:21:

Several flaws to that article The biggest flaw to that article is that the "advantages" it describes are really only advantageous to the EXTREMELY rich. And even then, it's easier for the very rich, who mostly hold their assets in corporations, to move their corporations to a new country rather than renouncing their citizenship.

The other thing it overlooks is the difficulty of finding a decent new country with LOWER tax burdens than the US. France is lovely, so is Canada, but their tax rates are higher, not lower. Sure you can be a Bahamian citizen, but have you ever tried travelling on a passport from a tiny island country? Not always easy. Colombians will understand this problem a lot more intuitively than US citizens, who don't even know that such a thing as a visa exists.

For the rest of us who work for a living, being an expat with US citizenship is a great deal. Essentially, each individual gets $92,000 in income exemptions, so for a two-income couple that adds up to $184,000 tax free. Hardly worth giving up your blue passport for that.

adrimm says on Jul 5, 2005, 09:25:

Agree w Mr. Hollywood "The other thing it overlooks is the difficulty of finding a decent new country with LOWER tax burdens than the US. France is lovely, so is Canada, but their tax rates are higher, not lower. "

I don't think that many Americans realise how lightly they are taxed compared to the rest of the developed world. As for getting citizenship elsewhere I hadn't even considered the impositions that might be imposed on travel with another passport, but what a pain.

utopiacowboy says on Jul 5, 2005, 11:38:

Regarding freedom of travel, you certainly have that right, Mr. Hollywood. My wife has many more possibilities for travel without a tourist visa now that she has her US green card.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 5, 2005, 12:24:

Question for Utopia How does that work, UC? With a green card she still has to travel on her Colombian passport, right? So does it help her get visa's more easily or was she able to get a US passport because she's married to you and has her green card?

utopiacowboy says on Jul 5, 2005, 13:10:

Well, in the case of Mexico and Canada, she doesn't even need a tourist visa any more. She still travels on her Colombian passport but since she has permanent residency in the US, she doesn't need the tourist visa that they would normally require of a Colombian. I was joking with her that her green card is a more valuable travel document than her passport.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Dan says on Jul 5, 2005, 13:15:

Well, it's true. My wife is looking forward to traveling to the US and then some day elsewhere. She's more interested right now in Hawaii (because I lived there once) and a couple other places.

God Bless America!

utopiacowboy says on Jul 5, 2005, 14:02:

I was out on the internet having a look at some of the countries that accept US green card holders as tourists without a visa. Came up with the Bahamas, Tibet, Guatamala, Brazil, Dominican Republic. Probably many others as well.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

tomtom33 says on Jul 6, 2005, 06:35:

Brazil A US passport holder cannot go to Brazil without getting a VISA first. Brazil tends to treat US citizens in the same way that the US treats their citizens. When the US started to require photos, Brazil required US citizens to be photographed as well. An airline pilot who flipped the bird to the camera discovered that the Brazilians had no sense of humor.

Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 6, 2005, 07:57:

Brazil The difference, Tomtom, is that any American who isn't a convicted mass murderer will get the Brazilian visa in short order. It's a mere formality.

Every time a Colombian needs a visa to just about anywhere they're looking at 50%-50% odds of rejection and a month of their passport stuck in some embassy. It's a real pain in the ass.

I helped a Colombian friend coordinate a trip around the world and you wouldn't believe the paperwork and hassles. And she won't just be able to decide on a whim, "Oh, Viet Nam sounds nice, think I'll go over there"

rjstuff says on Jul 6, 2005, 08:22:

One can gain a little advantage even if not so rich But you don't have to give up the citizenship. Since my pension is from USA - I always have to pay the federal taxes. However moving to a country like Costa Rica or Panama (I do not know about others e.g. Colombia); I am not subjected to taxes by the host country (pensions are excluded for taxes by both Panama and Costa Rica.)
What I gain in is State taxes (Colorado has 5% income taxes (it allows exclusion of first 20,000 if over 55)) and I also gain by reducing my medical insurance - when I combine the two factors, I gain almost $12,000 a year by moving to Costa Rica or Panama - that can be 3 or 4 nice little vacations every year! Now if my fiancee will only see it my way and agree! If not, well another 3 years (plus a few months processing times) for her citizenship (after she arrives) and then we can do it. I agree, travelling on a US Passport is so much easier for many European and South Ameircan countries and the rest are more inclined to give you a visa without any hassle (cause you can prove you have the money and resources to travel and are not interested in economic gains from their country.)

Rubiazo says on Jul 6, 2005, 18:42:

I'm actually waiting on my US citizenship before I can permanently live elsewhere. It's still something you don't wanna give up. It will also make a difference between a four year waiting period for my gf to get a visa to come here and 8 weeks maximum!

Brazil's economy is going along better than ever, GIB I dunno what they're talking about. They've just had their best year in probably over 20 years, and the real is .01% away from a 5 year high against the USD.

viewpoint says on Mar 18, 2006, 06:37:

Adrimm Acually the Canadian citizenship is ranked as one of the best for expats as non-resident Canadians are not taxed (by Canada) on income outside Canada while residing full time in another country whereas, a USA citizen is taxed on global income regardless of the origin of its source less of course the exemption that was discussed by Mr. Hollywood.

Colombia has some of the most dragonian tax laws I have every seen although currently some are not enforced. For instance, Colombia has the same global taxation laws as the USA but doesn't enforce them.

Any foreign investor that even considers making a major investment in Colombia needs physological counseling as the new laws are even worse than they were before. I would never invest another $ dollar beyond the necessities of living with the current patrimony taxation laws of Colombia.

DIAN inputs the greater of your actual income or a 6% return on your assets in Colombia other than your residence. It's called Patrimony tax. They simply apply the return regardless of the actual income (if any). It's simply a net worth tax.

Your don't have to worry about contacting DIAN because if you are doing business in Colombia (in size) they will find you.

platano says on Mar 20, 2006, 16:33:

Some people give up USA citizenship for ideological reasons... People don't always act solely considering their own economic self interest. Some (including poor folk) leave for other reasons.

If you would rather not belong to a country that violates human rights (capital punishment, torture, etc.) and invades and bombs other countries at will ("pre-emptive invasion"), then a country like Costa Rica (which doesn't even have an army) looks very inviting. Many ditched the USA during its bombing of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc. and went to Canada. Still happening as far as I know.

plátano

utopiacowboy says on Mar 20, 2006, 17:02:

We've been through this before. There are about as many Canadians coming south as there are Americans going north even now in the era of Bush.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

vladimiro says on Mar 20, 2006, 18:29:

Good Economist Article on Brazil Economy Regarding what was said about Brazil's economy above:

That the mass of Brazilians seems prepared to overlook the PT's misdeeds suggests that Lula got two big things right: the economy and poverty alleviation. Comparing Brazil's vital indicators when Lula took over with the same ones now “is like looking at two different economies�, says Vinod Thomas, former head of the World Bank in Brazil.

A poverty index tracked by the Fundação Getulio Vargas (FGV), a business school, fell from 27.3% of the population in 2003 to 25.1% in 2004. Strong economic growth in 2004 helped. More important, says Marcelo Neri of FGV, was a sharp drop in inequality, which is “now at its lowest level in the past 30 years, and still falling.�

“I don't want to grow 10% or 15% a year. I want a lasting cycle of growth averaging 4% or 5%.� There will be “no magic in the economy�, he says..

http://economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5578770

poco says on Mar 20, 2006, 20:07:

Never think of yourself and believe what you are told People don't always act solely considering their own economic self interest. Some (including poor folk) leave for other reasons.

Yes, we must help the “poor folk�, Jim Jones leader of the infamous Jones Town Massacre was quite the man. He to defended the poor and was very active in liberal politics, a real snake charmer. Gosh,, San Francisco,, who would ever guess?

Quote: At one point his congregation numbered 8,000. It was composed largely of poor African Americans.

His song was music to the ears of many and 900 of his people followed him to their death. This could have been more but I guess they couldn't afford the plane ticket TO LEAVE THE UNITED STATES.

If you would rather not belong to a country that violates human rights (capital punishment, torture, etc.) and invades and bombs other countries at will ("pre-emptive invasion"), then a country like Costa Rica (which doesn't even have an army) looks very inviting. Many ditched the USA during its bombing of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc. and went to Canada. Still happening as far as I know.

The number of people giving up their U.S. citizenship is probably less than those murdered in Jones Town. There will always be those that believe the world is flat and A BIG WHEEL is orbiting the earth.

I believe the poor folks are the ones to which you refer to as “leaving� or “would rather not belong�. Different strokes for different folks.

Spains in the news,, seems the younger crowd are attempting to set a world record for the amount of drunks they can crowd into a given number of blocks.. Hummm,, maybe that's why a Colombian can earn $3,000 per month working as a baker??

France has some interesting if NOT peaceful demonstrations. Last year the burning of thousands of cars,, this year, MUCH less car burning but LOTS or rioting, mayhem, police action and arrests.
How can this happen? Do you think their Socialist System is showing “cracks� in its welfare system? Is this a form of extortion directed toward the government? Do they actually think the government will give into their demands?
France surrendering to the demands of rioters,, well they’ve surrendered to everything else so this should be easy.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

utopiacowboy says on Mar 20, 2006, 21:44:

Well you know what they say about the French:

The French they are a funny race
They fight with their feet
They f**k with their face

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Sr Tertius says on Mar 21, 2006, 01:02:

Quelegancia la de Francia http://www.populardelujo.com/libro_01/movilizacion_popular/exposiciones/quelegancia/sigamadam_sigamesie.htm

Que elegancia la de Francia
Aunque no tan elegante
Como el odio y la ignorancia.

I'm still learning how to do alejandrinos, but I just learned they were invented by an America-hating French. Print the croissant and punch him: So much hatred must be vented, or (so I've heard) your sperm count goes down.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Sr Tertius says on Mar 21, 2006, 01:04:

Quelegancia la de Francia http://www.populardelujo.com/libro_01/movilizacion_popular/exposiciones/quelegancia/sigamadam_sigamesie.htm

Que elegancia la de Francia
Aunque no tan elegante
Como el odio y la ignorancia.

I'm still learning how to do alejandrinos, but I just learned they were invented by an America-hating French. Print the croissant and punch him: So much hatred must be vented, or (so I've heard) your sperm count goes down.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

utopiacowboy says on Mar 21, 2006, 13:09:

Growing up in Montreal, Quebec, I learned to love the French language. To me it will always be the most beautiful language in the world. Insults from the French about the way that we, les Quebecois, spoke French gave me no love for the people from France.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.