The nerve of some colombianos

kernow62 says on Dec 8, 2005, 13:56:

Are you sure you weren't at Dennys?

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Qubo says on Dec 8, 2005, 14:11:

Nope I wasn't at Dennys..

I was furious..the chick can't speak english but she has the nerve to discriminate..especially to her fellow colombian( mi amigo)...The place is real nice..well, simple..Her attitude just killed the ambiance..at least my hamburgesa was very deliciosa..thus, I didn't let her ruin my dinner.besides, i see it as her loss..maybe she's fresh of the boat and after couple of years in USA will understand better..

que esté bien

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poco says on Dec 8, 2005, 14:14:

Get your revenge Are you sure the restaurant wasn’t Denny’s ???

I’d sue em,,

In the future stick with Frisby’s,, similar to KFC and finger licking good,,,

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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toneloc24 says on Dec 8, 2005, 15:09:

Next time Hit her with the ole "Don't let me call immigration on your illegal ass! Now send out your manager."

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Colombiche says on Dec 8, 2005, 15:44:

It's no secret that Colombia is a racist society... no matter how much some Colombians want to deny it. Colombia is racist and classist. The people who say this isn't so, are probably very fair skinned and never had to deal with the crappy end of the stick.

I only have to go as far as my own extended family to give examples of how classist and racist many Colombians are. Listen, in Colombia you can be white, if you have an lastname that is not "cogollo", then you are not the right kind of white.

I love Colombia, but this is true. You are right, the nerve. These Colombianos have obviously never been to Buenaventura or Quibdo.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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elmodefoque says on Dec 8, 2005, 16:30:

colombiche, you see why i'm crazy about you.
Yes, most colomnbians of middle/rich class will swear up and down that racism and classim in colombia don't exist. Those are the same types that i like to joder

I'll get there, when I get there!

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elmodefoque says on Dec 8, 2005, 16:54:

i wish someone would clue me in as to the intense dislike many colombians have toward mexicans. i don't get it. am i missing something here? did they screwed us once or is it becuase they're mostly of indian blood, what is it?

I'll get there, when I get there!

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TheDRIAZAs says on Dec 8, 2005, 17:42:

Colombian...Of spanish decent..or indian ..or all?? Question? I know colombnians come from colombia but where do the decendents come from? are they indian or spanish or what? i am a little confused?

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kernow62 says on Dec 8, 2005, 18:06:

Hey what about the Germans?

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kernow62 says on Dec 8, 2005, 18:15:

My mother-in-law's family are Germanic background but they are Colombians too. I believe one of her ancestors started the first radio station in Colombia. I have to believe they weren't the only Colombians from Austria or Germany, how the heck did they all end up playing accordeons? On her father's side they were of Spanish ancestry, one of whom was govenor of Panama when it was part of Colombia.

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juancegomez says on Dec 8, 2005, 18:27:

.... Of course Racism and classism exist in Colombia, just as they do in the rest of the South American community and in most other countries in the world as well. Can't hide that.

The question, Colombiche, is a matter of degrees.

As far as I know, and obviously that is only a small part of a much larger and complex whole, active classism is actually much more prevalent and acceptable than active racism here, which is not rare but still comparatively uncommon (with passive, unspoken racism still being quite common, admittedly).

Arguably and vaguely defined, the population make-up goes something like this: most Colombians are mestizos by far, a mix of Spanish and Indigenous descent.

The sizable minorities that follow in number are whites and mulattos (a mix of African and Spanish). Smaller minorities are Africans per se, the indigenous per se and zambos (a mix of indigenous and African).

That's based on data that's probably outdated by now, so I'm omitting the supposed %s...I wonder if the census will actually shed some light here, but I guess I can't know yet...

Btw, there are definitely groups of immigrants and their descendants, particularily from the Middle East in the Northern Coast and smaller quantities of misc. Europeans and so on, but they are usually hard to visually identify (except for things like their having a relevant last name, or a "foreign" set of physical characteristics...which may or may not be accurately identified either).

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 8, 2005, 18:29:

Tidbit: Colombians of German descent started the companies now known as Avianca and Bavaria. And the head of EcoPetrol is named Isaac Ivanovich.

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Colombiche says on Dec 8, 2005, 18:46:

Juan Alejo active classism is actually much more prevalent and acceptable than active racism here

Juan, I believe that in Colombia racism and classicism are so deeply intermingled that they overlap and the line between the two is so blurred you can't even tell where one begins and the other ends.

Let me give you an example. Back when my (very classist) grandmother was alive, if one of the servants talked back to her she would tell her "Esta negra se cree igual", even if the girl was just as fair as the rest of us. How do you explain that? I can tell you my grandmother was not a special case, she was bad, but there were lots of people like her.

How about the fact that when somebody is impolite, we call them "indios" (once again, even if they are white). This stems from the belief that everything Spanish is noble and everything autoctonous is vulgar IMHO.

As I stated before, Simon Bolivar might have screamed independece from Spain a long time ago, but we are still carrying the shackles of their caste system. Why do paisas from towns with large percentages of whites proudly refer to themselves as "pura casta"?

Most Colombians still consider that marrying a white person (whether Colombian or else)is "mejorar la raza". What Colombian hasn't heard that term "mejorar la raza?". When I hear that term I think of dogs and pedigree, it makes me laugh.
Conversely, if you marry somebody darker than you, they tell you "que le esta poniendo trompa a los hijos" (you are putting big lips on your kids).

If you are Colombian and you never heard any of these terms I congratulate you. Either you grew up in a very egalitarian home/school/neighborhood/circle of friends or in a cave!

Colombians are mestizo. The racial mixing in our country was more thorough than that that took place in Mexico, Peru or Ecuador. We don't have a super strong Indian element like these cultures do, but we don't have as strong a European element as countries like Argentina, although we have a sizeable population of caucasian looking people, but in many cases they are just very white washed mestizos like myself. Looking at me you probably would lump me with a bunch of Italians or Rumanians, but if you look at my bloodline, I can't be all European.

I dont' want to bore anyone with my long retorts, but from MPOV the bottom line is that Colombia is not a country where people walk around with Aryan Nation flags but rather a mestizo nation so caught up in emulating Europe that people constantly strive to add a couple more drops of milk to the cafe au lait that our society is.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Dec 8, 2005, 18:55:

Let me add That this problem I illustrated above is definitely not unique to Colombia. It is a problem of all latinamerican nations, a by product of Spanish / Portuguese colonization.

I love to Colombia to death, but I can't seriously sit here and paint a pretty picture of how our racial/class structure. That would be hypocritical of me.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 8, 2005, 19:15:

Colombiche Excellent Post Thank You.. One of the most interesting, thought provoking and IMHO, truthful posts I have read here in a long time.

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juancegomez says on Dec 8, 2005, 19:45:

Colombiche Btw, please don't confuse me with Juan Alejo though...who knows if he will appreciate that or not.


Juan, I believe that in Colombia racism and classicism are so deeply intermingled that they overlap and the line between the two is so blurred you can't even tell where one begins and the other ends.


A respectable position, I just see things somewhat differently. It's a matter of debate and of resorting to personal experiences, I guess. So as you can imagine, I don't think that there is **one** ultimate and completely true answer to this.


Let me give you an example. Back when my (very classist) grandmother was alive, if one of the servants talked back to her she would tell her "Esta negra se cree igual", even if the girl was just as fair as the rest of us. How do you explain that? I can tell you my grandmother was not a special case, she was bad, but there were lots of people like her.


Remembering what I just typed...It's speculation, of course, given that I can't know all the details. But I guess if they had mostly the same skin color, it may have been a matter of custom and/of linguistics as well, not necessarily of conscious racism.

After all, you've said it yourself, the word "negro" isn't necessarily always a conscious racial term, as that example shows. Hey, at some points in my life I've been called "negro" too, both in a casual **and** in a hostile manner (and by people with darker skin), despite the fact that I'm far from fitting the purely physical description that word implies. Even in situations where there is no reason for racial categories to be active.


How about the fact that when somebody is impolite, we call them "indios" (once again, even if they are white). This stems from the belief that everything Spanish is noble and everything autoctonous is vulgar IMHO.


A similar situation, and it's still debatable, even precisely because of what you've just said. That might have been the original meaning of the term, but these days, it's a linguistic reference for the most part. Doesn't mean that there's always active racism there.

Say, Pablo Escobar and other mafiosos did act and dress in a "vulgar" manner (or simply without a sense of fashion), qualifying for the "indio" classification. Does that mean that they were being racially discriminated?

The fact that, in several situations, "negro" and "indio" can be used in non-racial ways or in ways that directly contradict racial categories (not excluding that such an use remains) means that they have become a part of a wider vocabulary and a set of slang terms in common use by people of all races and backgrounds.

Social discrimination sure seems more prevalent in these cases, beyond the mere linguistic origin of the terms, which isn't always being directly transmitted.


As I stated before, Simon Bolivar might have screamed independece from Spain a long time ago, but we are still carrying the shackles of their caste system. Why do paisas from towns with large percentages of whites proudly refer to themselves as "pura casta"?


That doesn't necessarily always imply racism but also refers to regionalism nowadays. Many paisas often consider themselves directly "different" from the rest of the country and as somehow superior, even when compared to cachacos or other people that are "pure whites" at first sight, showing pride in their paisahood. Even the "black paisas" can be proud of being paisas, and are.

That doesn't exclude the racial elements that "pura casta" or similar expressions contain, but doesn't immediately bring them to mind either. Breeding isn't necessarily limited to just skin color, you know.


Most Colombians still consider that marrying a white person (whether Colombian or else)is "mejorar la raza".


Very debatable and I'd like to see why do you think that "most" can subscribe to that theory automatically.


What Colombian hasn't heard that term "mejorar la raza?".


Not in casual conversation, never. Only in "academic" discussions such as this one or when reading historical texts.


Conversely, if you marry somebody darker than you, they tell you "que le esta poniendo trompa a los hijos" (you are putting big lips on your kids).


Never heard that one in casual conversation either, and seems even rarer to me overall.

Maybe that all depends on where each person lives and in which regions those terms are more often used (or aren't used), so neither of us should automatically assume that our respective experiences reflect the complexity of the entire country.


If you are Colombian and you never heard any of these terms I congratulate you. Either you grew up in a very egalitarian home/school/neighborhood/circle of friends or in a cave!


I guess that means I'm either surrounded by gentlemen or by cavemen, neither of which is an entirely accurate description...nor an inviting future.


I dont' want to bore anyone with my long retorts, but from MPOV the bottom line is that Colombia is not a country where people walk around with Aryan Nation flags but rather a mestizo nation so caught up in emulating Europe that people constantly strive to add a couple more drops of milk to the cafe au lait that our society is.


I'd mostly agree with the general description, but I'd question the argument that "most" people walk around "constantly" striving to do just that.

From personal experience, I'd say that most people are actually much more inclined to being preoccupied with immediate socio-economic concerns than with the "aristocratic" thought of actively "blanquearse".

Are there minorities that do think like that and that place racism and racial cleansing in their priority list? Certainly. But I don't think that mentality can be equally attributed to most Colombians without a second thought.

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juancegomez says on Dec 8, 2005, 19:45:

.... ...

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juancegomez says on Dec 8, 2005, 19:48:

....
I love to Colombia to death, but I can't seriously sit here and paint a pretty picture of how our racial/class structure. That would be hypocritical of me.


I'm not painting a pretty picture either, not at all. But it would also be seriously hypocritical of me to paint race as the overwhelmingly important factor for most Colombians.

I believe that the element of class is actually much more prevalent than that of race within such structures and their daily consequences, even if racism still continues to exist but not in such an automatically widespread manner.

It's a matter of degrees. You think that both are closely linked, I think they aren't as close.

I can agree though, that there are groups of people that are more classist than racist, or racist than classist, or just about equally racist and classist. And, logically, groups of people where both elements are absent.

So I'm not denying the existance of racism, just adding complexity to one of its interpretations.

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Colombiche says on Dec 8, 2005, 20:05:

Sorry Juance I am trying to change Juan's name above.... I got you mixed up!

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 8, 2005, 20:10:

What is the deal with these posts about Colombians not getting along with Mexican Americans or Mexicans? My wife works with Mexicans and in fact got her job through her friendship with a Mexican woman. Almost all of the people in her ESL classes are Mexican, everyone except us who attend the Spanish language Masses twice a month are Mexican and we frequently go to Mexican quinceaneras and weddings. I don't hear her complain about any of it and she values these relationships and a certain commonality. Maybe it's just her but if that's true, I'm a very lucky guy.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Dec 8, 2005, 20:19:

Juan My opinions are based on my experience growing up as in a humongous paisa family, half my relatives are born and bred Bogotanos, so I think I have a fair angle on both regions.

My dearest best friend is from Choco, she is half black half white paisa. She taught me a lot about what it is like to grow up in Quibdo. She tells me than in Choco, when a black woman gives birth to lighter skinned offspring, they tell her she has "vientre limpio". What does this imply to you? This has nothing to do with class. If the child is born with white people's hair, they say he got "pelo bueno". If he has black people's hair, then it's "pelo malo". It saddens me that black people themselves use these terms. Many of them realize that their children's climb up the social ladder will be easier if they are blanqueados.

We can add as much "complexity to the matter" as we want, but I don't think it is as complex.

I still disagree that referring to a crass individual as an "indio" is just an idiom, a manifestation of classism. This has negative racial connotations in my point of view, I can't look past the fact that any undesirable trait is associated with the non-white element of our ancestry.

I am not saying that Colombianos conciously walk around trying to whiten their bloodline. I think it is a subconcious idea that has been implanted in our brain, of course many people don't adhere to it, but I am just speaking about what I consider to be a significant pattern in our behaviour.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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quindioman says on Dec 8, 2005, 20:33:

a bit monotonous I challenge someone here to name me one country that does not discriminate in any way against against peoples in their society....it's not a national trait, more an individualistic trait which you will see worldwide in ignorant people.....and not strictly confined to Colombia.....I'm not one to get easily offended but please post something else......
qubo....if you didn't like the service walk out and never go back....it's that simple.....you'll find rude people in every corner of the world.

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juancegomez says on Dec 8, 2005, 20:59:

Colombiche Again, I definitely am not in a position to dig too deep into these things, so all I can say is mostly what I already mentioned.

The example about your friend from Choco definitely appears to be a case of racism. I am not denying that such examples of clear racism exist, nor that they can be quite widespread in certain regions, groups of people and situations. Clearly, what you've mentioned now implies a racist meaning to me, which is also linked to moving upwards in the social ladder.

I'm just saying that I don't think that example, or as numerous as others may seem if we were to make a list of individual experiences, can amount to giving us the entire story. I believe that the story is more complex, while you believe it isn't. Fine, I respect that.

Note that I didn't say that referring to an individual as an "indio" is "just an idiom", nor did I deny that it has negative racial connotations, nor did I deny that the words that describe undesirable traits were originally associated with the non-white element, as you put it.

I've just stressed, and am stressing, the point that such doesn't always *have* to be the case, and that in particular I don't believe it is the predominant one, at this point in our historical development.

Your point about subconcious ideas is a good one, but I interpret that behavioral pattern differently, especially since there's a huge difference between what an idea originally referred to and what the words that come along with it can refer to in each individual case.

Sometimes the original meaning will be fully preserved and quite evident, other times it will not. My position is that, as time has gone by and our society has acquired complexity, the linguistics haven't always properly reflected that, and that there's a mixture of both racial and non-racial meanings in practice.

That being the case, I believe that the trend has been for the words to acquire additional (not exclusive) meanings within the context of general and specific class diferences, irrespective of whether the people using those terms are racist or not, or are victims of racism or not.

Even if all Colombians were magically turned into "unracist" perfect beings, a lot of the existing vocabulary would stick. That hasn't happened yet, and the cloud of racism still lives among us and thrives when it can. It's just that it's not hiding under every bed, or even most beds, from my point of view.

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platano says on Dec 8, 2005, 21:36:

All of you have such insightful comments.... I don't feel I have near as much knowledge, nor, obviously, the personal experience of being discriminated against in Colombia (I felt a discrimination in my favor... "humor him... he's a weird gringo who doesn't eat meat, drink coffee, or partake of aguardiente").

Nonetheless, in my 20+ years association with Colombia (since 1984) I witnessed much racial discrimination and discrimination against sexual minorities and class discrimination, including murder by death squads ("limpieza social") because I lived in marginal neighborhoods (estrato 2 y 3) where such things happened.

Now to my point, which is just a considered opinion: I would say that over the last 20 years the level of all types of discrimination in Colombia has decreased and Colombia is a much more accepting, loving, and tolerant place than it was when I arrived in Medellín in 1984 shortly after the murder of the Justice Minister, Rodrigo Lara Bonilla. In my opinion the Constitución of 1991 was a great step forward, moving Colombia toward the human paradise it could be. Colombia is already a natural paradise.
con cariño

plátano

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elmodefoque says on Dec 9, 2005, 05:05:

How do you tell Colombians that many of them are racist modefoques when they never been discriminated in Colombia where they are the chosen lighter color. They only get to see racism when they step outta Colombia and are discriminated against for being a damn spic, then thats when they get all upset talking about how racist those damn gringos are, this and that, but when talking about racism in their country, is trivial and insignificant because they were never on the receiving end. I not only experienced racism from other Colombians but own family, will I get over my dislike for most middle/rich class Colombians and their women, probably not, but I can assure that if you had walked in my shoes, wait, I had no shoes, anyway if you had walked around in my filthy feet then you see why I bitch so much. I experienced more discrimination against me in Colombia than USA but then again I always lived and worked in Manhattan, I’m not stupid and I do realize that outside this tiny Island is the real USA.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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aztec says on Dec 9, 2005, 05:42:

elmodefoque... ...I also have become aware of the intense dislike of the Mexicans by the Colombians. In examining this phenomenon there is apparently as well some feeling of superiority in the Argentineans directed at other nationalities of South America. This hostility seems to be applied with a broad brush and not to individuals.

One explanation I have heard is that the animosity derives from the perception of North Americans that all Central and South Americans are like the Mexicans. If you remember almost all of our contacts with Mexicans are with those poor souls who are uneducated and come from very deprived circumstances.

We have heard CNN refer to the 5th of May as the Hispanic holiday. Even the intelligentsia has a hard time understanding that every country in Central and South America is different with their own ideocentricities .

With regard to racism, our own experience here in the States was that directed at my wife by Blacks. In St. Croix she actually had an employee turn her back on her and refuse to wait on her. In Another incident here on the mainland she was pulled out of the line of a Kroger store and her $10.00 bill was examined for counterfeit. They released her immediately when they saw that I was with her and became a little agitated about her treatment. She has since learned racism is someone else's problem and thus ignores it. I have much more difficulty at her mistreatment than she does.

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kernow62 says on Dec 9, 2005, 06:28:

I am tired of being discriminated against in the USA because I am short. Why do tall people have to look down on me? Or rather why do they think I should look up to them just because they are tall!

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Lowell says on Dec 9, 2005, 06:48:

Lots of rude people Color or no Color #1
Yesterday, while in town and doing some shopping, I was looking at some lights in a bin with the store owner, when a woman comes up and practically takes the items that I’m looking at out of my hand. To her, I didn't exist. Saying nothing, I put the item down and walked out of the store until she has moved to a different part of the store. The owner was pissed, as I buy a lot of stuff from that store and he knows it. He chews the woman out. However, no apologies from her. I would have preferred to jump in her face. However, a Gringo can’t say anything here. She’d probably go crying to her husband or boyfriend and I’d find myself in a world of hurt. This type of thing has happened before way too many times. The Govermnet and Country of Colombia is changing rapidly for the better. Too bad the people aren't.

#2
The other day I’m walking down the street with a huge bag of fruits and vegetables. Some lady comes charging out of a store front with a cart, knowing very well people are passing by. I'm currently having some gut pain/problems and stopping suddenly and dodging people causes a lot of pain. I'm tired of being the one who dodges. This time I didn’t stop or try to dodge. She felt a big hunk of my shoulder as I knocked her away. Shocked, she began to berate me. I told her (in Spanish) that I was carrying a lot of weight and it was her fault for causing the collision and she needed to have more respect for the people around her. Several men were at a restaurant table nearby and thought the scene was quite funny. I didn’t. The next day nearly the same thing happened again. There's no excuse or logical reason for this type of behavior in any Country!

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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aztec says on Dec 9, 2005, 07:12:

kernow62... ...you may be joking but it is actually true. Short people are discriminated against in the States.

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kernow62 says on Dec 9, 2005, 07:52:

I am joking and I am serious at the same time. I only have to look around at those who are in positions of authority within a company, they are usually tall.

I am a victim of double discrimination, bald and short. How the hell can I be expected to succeed. No wonder so many short, fat, bald gringos go to Colombia to find a woman. ;-)

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 9, 2005, 08:06:

Lowell, you should probably do what my mom does. She has been living here for so long she doesn't really care. Yesterday we were buying some flowers at the vivero and there were some really nice ones so my mom was kinda choosing and picking the ones she liked best, when this woman came over and just stood like in front of her, took the best ones and planned on leaving, thats right "planned, made a fail attempt"...so my loving mommy threw a fit "You india, mala clase yadda yadda, the flowers are mine and I will pay double for them just to spite you"
Thats the attitude, some of their own medicine and problem solved. (Just kidding, but it was a quite amusing scene)

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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elmodefoque says on Dec 9, 2005, 08:34:

hey kern, take your ass to bogota, i saw lots of short modefoques over there. as for the other problem, i think hair club for men is doing wonders for bald heads, now if your're ugly too i think the french are now doing face transplants

I'll get there, when I get there!

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caslug says on Dec 9, 2005, 08:38:

came late to the meeting.. but was this in COL or US?

Read my post, i ALWAYS get called CHINO(i´m not) by a WHOLE street at ANY parade i go to. But they don´t say it in a negative way, so i´m cool with it. It´s funny, kids would come up and stare sometimes and then point to me and ask the mother, el chino? the mother would say, si, el chino.. ja, ja..

but here´s a thread on racism in COL at a COL college..

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/15376

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elmodefoque says on Dec 9, 2005, 08:42:

caslug, you wanna hear something funny, when i was not called INDIO i was called CHINO what the f--k is that about, the nearest i been to china is china town, downtown manhattan.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 9, 2005, 08:44:

hey chino I'm sure you know this but for those who don't: chino is Bogotá slang for a kid.
Ala mi chino....
Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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elmodefoque says on Dec 9, 2005, 08:52:

a kid? i'm an old modefoque. the last time someone called me chino, i told them "chino" tu maldita madre hp". Now that i think about i do look chino but with a real dark tan.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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elmodefoque says on Dec 9, 2005, 09:21:

morphus, that b--- is how mos morphus, that b--- is how some colombianas over there think. i remember gettin pointed at as i walked down the street and mothers pulling their kids closer to them like I was a freaking freak and saying something about indio this or that. i was just learning spanish then, so i did not understand those spics yet. I gotta be honest, we do have a bunch of toothless ugly and mean modefoques .

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Crazy4Cali says on Dec 9, 2005, 09:56:

I think... I think short people should stand up for their rights!

Oh, wait. They are standing. Nevermind.

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Qubo says on Dec 9, 2005, 10:12:

Thank you all for your insightful thoughts but I would like to personally thank Elmodefoque & Colombiche for their honest and clear insight of discrimination/classism/racism and also inferior complex among indios & blacks/mulattos.


Colombiche,

Indeed racism & classism are intermingled. And IMO, the poster debating that its just a slang term(indio or negro) is in denial or lives in a very secluded world. How come we don't hear blanquito used in a negative way, EVER. Actually, if someone is mentioned as blanco it is taken with pride and I sense of feeling mejor. On the other hand calling someone un negro/indio is basically a revolving door which sometimes may smack you upside the head which leaves you to realize.."Hey, did he just insult me".

Elmodefoque, also touched on something very interesting...Those same colombians are upset when anglos call them "spics" and treat them as some dumb illegal immigrant. I say, "its the chicken that is coming home to roost..what comes around goes around"

Yes, I could of walked out the restaurant because of the bad service but my way of thinking is "why should I?" Instead, I try to bring the issue to the persons attention and make them realize that this form of treatment is wrong and will not be tolerated by me besides this isnt Latin America where blacks/indios/mulattos will just take that Bullsh8. I know this may not have an effect on that individual but it sure feels good when you put someone in their place and DEMAND respect.

See some of these people assume that hey this black/mulatto guy is un-educated or he is some street thug which when they hold a conversation with me I usually dis-spell those assumptions..

Now something colombiche mentioned is so so true and sad at the same time amongst blacks/mulattos/indios. If the baby is born light or with curly hair the child is adored and the mother is praised and gets a "pat" on the back since her child came out lighter which supposedly in their inferior minds will have a better chance in life and possibly marry someone lighter then him/her and continue with this false since of "orgullo" and accomplishment.

In my family this is very prevelant..I remember as a child family friends would adore me because of my so called "pelo bueno" and features..es un negro fino..what the hell does that mean? This is purely an inferior complex my brother who is lighter was a God.

Unfortunately blacks/mulattos have been battered and abused that some think the only way to climb up the ladder in society is to marry someone lighter than you. Anything, darker would be moving the family tree backwards..And just to clarify this is prevelant in All of latin america. My family is from there too and its la misma cosa...

Elmo, I can relate to you coming to USA and suddenly became that exotic "indio" that the rubias would not leave alone..When you mentioned on one of your post having to hook up your older fair mestizo brother since he was just another "spic" sounds too familiar. You're like the Brad Pitt here, your second home away from home but when you return to la patria all of the costenas would trample over you to get to a poor unemployed gringo or fair skin mestizo. But the tables have turned and with the flick of the wrist you "el indio" pull out the blue US passport and within a blink of an eye se parece como un gringo...and are worshiped like some "golden child" and you rein supreme de nuevo..just don't lose that passport..LOL..without it you will lose all of you super powers...LOL..

I repeat classism and racism go hand and hand..where in this world do we have the rich blacks/mulattos/indios looking down from their terrace at poor whites/mestizos living miserably with no way out. A dumb mestizo makes a better first impression than an educated negro/mulatto/indio..Why? Ponder on that one a bit..the latter has to prove him/herself before she/he is taken seriously..thus, classim/racism falls in the same negative "hierarchy" system. Now a black/indio/mulatto with an education and loads of money can climb up the rankings too but a white/mestizo with the same education and money will have a higher ranking in society...and also the right apellido brings you a long way..you can bullsh8 your way to the top if you have a good lastname only if you're white/mestizo...Sad but so true...

Well, I stayed because I wanted a damn hamburguesa and I was going to get..Again, its her loss because in actuality she is a pion in this society trying to get by,everyday, meanwhile, I have an education, a good job, and enjoying the good things in life...


One more thing..I know some black paisas and they treat other black colombians like crap and brag about the paisa heritage..This one black paisa told me that the costenos talk feo como negros..Ok, what was that about? I was shocked.....He learned quickly that he didn't mean nada amongst other afrolatinos..besides he fell behind in the ranking system..The guy is charcoal black and we know some dominicans who discriminated against him badly..They labeled him "el haitiano"...Till, this day he hates dominicans..LOL..and only associates with mostly afro colombian which aren't paisas..I think he learned his lesson..

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 9, 2005, 10:55:

Classism, Racism It's impossible to seperate out the strands of classism and racism in both the US and Colombia. Sure, Colombians are more classist than in the US, but it's not an accident, really, that the vast majority of poor people in BOTH countries have dark skin and the rich people have light skin. You can say people are discriminating against Blacks from the ghettos of the Bronx because they're poor and live in the projects. Or you can say they're discriminating against them because they're Black. Both, in fact, are true. But I've never seen the cops beat up a white guy just because he was poor.

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Boatygringo says on Dec 9, 2005, 11:09:

Discrimenation Dont feel bad it happens to Gringos too, I am grey with blue eyes no way to be taken for a local and I can stand and wait in line and be ignored while they wait on the Colombians a head of me. I loose my cool after a while and advise them in my bad spanish that I am a customer and want respect.

Boatygringo

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Crazy4Cali says on Dec 9, 2005, 11:20:

It's not just Race/Class it's anyplace someone has pre-conceived notions (i.e. prejudices & stereotypes). I've seen it at work, at home, on the street, in stores, etc. While it happens all the time, it hurts the most when it happens to YOU and you think it's unfair.

What do you call it when the Mercedes or Cadillac salesman balks at showing the car to someone who doesn't fit their target demographic? (a lost sale).

What do you call it when the middle-aged gringo is spurned in the U.S. but a hot property in Colombia? (an excuse to go to Colombia!)

What do you call it when you've been working in the mail room while you go to college, then after you graduate, no one will look at your resume because "you're that mail-room guy." (time to look at a different company).

Race and (to a lesser degree) class are easy and obvious targets, but by no means the only reasons for people to apply stereotypes. But the sad fact is, people apply stereotypes because it seems to work for them (otherwise they would have changed). Chances are, they don't realize what they are missing, or maybe they don't care. But stereotypes continue to exist because they help people filter their universe and they work. Sure it sucks to be filtered out, but that's the way it goes. You can complain all you want, but until the person acting on the stereotype will only change when they have a reason to believe his/her stereotype is failing them. Until then, that's their view of the world and they ain't gonna change.

What can you do as the filteree do? Change to conform to the stereotype. Move and go someplace where you are filtered in and not out (e.g. take your business elsewhere). There's no reason you need to encourage that sort of behavior, but as an individual you're probably not likely to change much of it either.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 9, 2005, 11:52:

I agree juan's earlier comments on this thread. That's pretty much the class/race situation as I perceived it in Colombia. So, which one was there first: the chicken or the egg? Is the class society result of the inherent racism in the Iberian society? Is the racism result of the class society?

I'm pretty much convinced, however, that you see what you want to see and hear what want to hear; if you're expecting to be discriminated you will be; if you're not concerned with racial issues you let minor slurs pass and nothing happens. There are always people who think themselves better than you everywhere. It's not a Colombian issue.

When I first came to Sweden I noticed that it was better to speak English at stores than broken Swedish. Why? Because English is a high status language and is immediately associated with buying power. If I spoke broken Swedish I could be just any immigrant, if I spoke English I could be a rich tourist just visiting the country. Does this mean that the Swedes are racist people? I don't think so.

One of the most refreshing things I experienced in Colombia was that I didn't need to be politically correct all the time. Jokes were just jokes. Things were called by their real names, no euphemisms. You could laugh at almost everything, including yourself. A little self-distance has never hurted anybody.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Colombiche says on Dec 9, 2005, 11:58:

Desi My uncle (one of my father's brothers) married a Swedish woman, he actually met her in Bogota, her father was a diplomat at the time.

My family was so happy, embraced her like there is no tomorrow. From where she was sitting, she must have been thinking "wow, these Colombians are so warm and accepting of foreigners". Sure, she a was blond Scandinavian, my cousins came out very blond too. I assure you, however, if the lady had been a charcoal black nigerian, my family would not have embraced her like they did, and she would not have felt so welcome.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Dec 9, 2005, 12:08:

Now... Don't get me wrong. I am not saying Colombia is the most racist society on earth. We are like any other latinamerican nation in that respect.

I just cannot sit here and tell people who have felt discriminated against that they were dreaming. If they say it happens, why can't we just sit back and believe at least 50% of what they say?

As a white Colombian, I dare not speak from the point of view of a black or native Colombian, because I am not qualified to do so. How could I? I haven't walked in their shoes!!

Now do you want the point of view of a young latino woman trying to make it in the Canadian corporate world? That I can tell you, because in Canada, no matter how white, I am still Colombian and the butt end of Cocaine jokes. Just like Elmo said. He is right.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Dec 9, 2005, 12:09:

oops Double posted

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 9, 2005, 12:16:

colombiche I don't know if you read the post I wrote about this very same thing before; about my doubts for the warm welcome I had when I married my caleño.
My daughter never came to terms with her grandmother because she always felt like a trophy in her grandparents' house. An item to be shown to friends, look this is my nieta isn't she adorable! With her long, blond hair, blue eyes and very fair countenance she always felt like an object, not like a real person. I, however, always thought it had more to do with the grandmother herself, being a descendant of a German great-grandfather and being rather European looking herself.

I'm not denying (I want to be absolutely clear about this) that many Colombians look up to Europe and European ancestors. It might be more common, however, in the paisa region. I didn't see much of that in Cali. (with the exception of my in-laws and there it was only my mother-in-law). Days before my wedding I had a surprise visit: my mother-in-law wanted to have a little talk with me. She wanted to know why I was marrying her son. If I was going to take him away to some frozen, god-forgotten land on the other side of the globe. If there were bears roaming on the streets of my town. These kind of things.

Back to the topic: the opposites attract. Colombian families will be delighted to receive a daughter-in-law from Europe. A Colombian son-in-law is equally appreciated by the Nordic in-laws. It's not really a racial issue at all.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Dec 9, 2005, 12:23:

The world is becoming a much smaller place.. If COL(or any culture) think that labeling people by race or class is OK then it´s going to come back and bite them down the road.

What happens when a high level business executive from South Africa goes to COL to setup a business deal that will bring jobs and money to COL, he or she happens to be black and the receptionist or security person gives them a hard time or calls them a racial slur, thinking it´s nothing?

Also, if anyone knows anything about cultural or historical with asia, they´ll know that to call a japonese or korean person chinese(chino) is a HUGE insult, just like chinese don´t want to be called Japonese or other. To do that in a business setting is a huge no no. That´s why when i meet educated, cultured, well-to-do cols, they never call me chino. They know better.

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kernow62 says on Dec 9, 2005, 12:26:

What's a cracker?

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toneloc24 says on Dec 9, 2005, 12:32:

Without getting too deep into this conversation on racism and classism (sorry, but this board's seen enough of that), I will say that I've noticed that there is a prevalent ignorance of Colombians with regard to such matters. I actually agree with Elmo. It's so common and ingrained inside Colombia, that it's actually normal.

True experience: I remember getting turned away from a club last year in North Barraquilla (Frogg Leggs), specifically because of my skin color. This was stated specifically by the security guys. There weren't joking. This was managament's wishes, or they would lose their jobs. My now ex-novia and her friend was there, heard exactly these words, and still would not believe it. "We needed to make reservations" "The club is just full" "There must be a private party going on" are all excuses that they were trying to come up with. My Colombian-American friend was there with us, he was visibly shaken by the whole thing the entire night, repeatedly apologizing to me for "his people." He was resigned to saying, "we've travelled all over South America together and come all the way to Colombia to face our 1st real discrimination together. It's a shame."

Now when those same types of Colombians leave Colombia and travel to Spain (for instance) or the USA, and get treated like dirt, just because they are Colombian, only then to them is the sky falling. When in fact, it's just a welcome-to-reality statement for them. To them, I say, no one's keeping you out of Colombia. Go back to where that type of thinking is normal, and makes you feel comfortable. JMO.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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caslug says on Dec 9, 2005, 13:17:

to add to what tone said.. i met a young, well to do, blonde, white, Paisa. She doesnt like el centro and like to stick to upper class areas..Well she lived in the US for couple of years and she was SOOO MADDD because the moment she said she was COL, the other students and people asked her where to buy drugs! She said she used to cry sometimes from the ignorant comment people make. Talk about walking a mile in someone else shoes! Payback is a bitch sometimes...

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ws244 says on Dec 9, 2005, 13:39:

class Well let the FARC take over Colombia, have them execute all the "gifted class ones" and then all the peasants and indigenous will have the same wonderful equality color blindless lifestyle as the Cubans now enjoy. Or just wait and see the wonderful Democracy of Venezuela, soon to be the Socialist Republic of Venezuela, 5th largest oil producer of the world rich in resources, and in 5 years see if the poor will still be poor.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 9, 2005, 13:40:

my son had the same problem when studying in London. He was totally bored and annoyed by all the ignorant blokes that asked about drugs every time he said he was Colombian. It's a bitch.
Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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COLDK says on Dec 9, 2005, 14:36:

"How come we don't hear blanquito used in a negative way, EVER"

Only when the "cachacas" go to "la costa" you can hear the costeñas saying: "hey viste a esa vieja tan blanca, parece una rana platanera". "Hey si, un papel le queda poco".

After reading this post I remember my grandma who didnt like "negros", but for those "curiosities" in life she got 5(five) "yernos negros". Al que no quiere caldo se le dan dos platos...

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aztec says on Dec 9, 2005, 16:07:

kernow62 What's a cracker?

Refers to those people in Georgia who would use the bull whip to drive their mule teams. You would hear the crack of the whip over the mules. Would not actually hit the animals.

What once was simply a descriptive use for a person in this line of work has been subverted into a term for some one in the South who is uneducated, a hick and unsophisticated. Used as another method to denigrate the Southerner.

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kernow62 says on Dec 9, 2005, 16:38:

Cool, some guy called me a mother fuckin' cracker and I thought he was calling me a saltine or something. ja ja I should really be angry shouldn't I. I think I better start drinking my Kola Granulada again, that seemed to fire me up a bit.

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rocinante says on Dec 9, 2005, 17:13:

Taco axztec "We have heard CNN refer to the 5th of May as the Hispanic holiday. Even the intelligentsia has a hard time understanding that every country in Central and South America is different with their own ideocentricities."

I tell people here in the NYC (educated worl travelers, mind you) that I just got back from Colombia and I hear, "How were the tacos and enchiladas?"

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 9, 2005, 19:32:

Cinco de Mayo Well, the funny thing about CNN referring to Cinco de Mayo that way is that it's pretty much a "holiday" created by American beer companies in the same way Hallmark has helped invent things like Secretaries day and others. Last I checked, NOBODY in Mexico was celebrating May 5 and EVERYONE goes apeshit on September 16.

To anyone who claims that racism isn't common in Colombia, I ask them to explain exactly what a social aquaintance of mine meant when I borrowed her place in Cartagena and she said "the house comes with it's own slave" when referring to her black empleada. This was from the mouth of a well-educated, well-travelled, and very sweet Colombiana. I'm sure a lot of people find that joke just hilarious.

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Rubiazo says on Dec 9, 2005, 23:23:

Crackers and bad hair a 'cracker' is like a saltine cracker, referring both to white people's perceived bland tastes in food and the similarity in the color of the cracker to the skin color.

Bad hair is bad because it is difficult as hell to comb out or to do anything with. Those afros people wore back in the day were VERY high maintenance! It's not entirely a racial thing.

In Bogota a 'chino' is a kid, saying 'quiuvo chino' is like saying 'what's up kid' here in NYC. It doesn't mean Chinese person or Chinese-looking in any way like it does say in DR or PR.

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quindioman says on Dec 9, 2005, 23:58:

chino not just confined to tabogo.
I grew up with the term in Quindio.....'tonces que chino? como fua?

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kernow62 says on Dec 10, 2005, 02:44:

Anyone seen Dave Chappel do the bit about the blind black guy who was raised by white people who never bothered to tell him he was black. He grew up to be a white supremacist or ws as they are known in the south. It was hilarious.

His humour is always poking fun at white people, but does that make him a racist? Where do you draw the line between comedy and racism and can you be too PC and stifle creativity?

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caslug says on Dec 10, 2005, 06:23:

chino DOESNT mean Chinese??? That´s a first, then what does Japonese mean? because when i say i´m not chino they ask if i´m Japonese. Then when i say no, they ask if i´m Correan. When i say i´m from the US, they do a double take! ja, ja.. They always say, but you LOOK CHINO.. Guess their saying I CANT be from the STATES because i look like a KID!

While the word CHINO MAY have different meaning, BUT when used in the context that it was used, STRANGERS on the STREET yell the name out or people ASK if I WAS CHINO. While i´m a young looking guy, NO ONE would mistake me for a kid. But thanks for the flattery! :-)

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 10, 2005, 06:30:

I think chino applies to all kinds of young people. I met this guy who teaches at Universidad Nacional and he calls all uni students chinos. I get "chinita loca" from the maid all the time, and I am 21, neither a kid nor a china.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 10, 2005, 06:35:

Que le vamos a hacer con este chino que en realidad es un chino aunque no le guste! Dizque es un chino gringo que anda disfrazado de japonés o coreano.
Saludes,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Dec 10, 2005, 06:41:

IF CHINO mean young people.. WHY didn´t the crowd yell the CHINO to MANY OTHER photographer that were COL AND YOUNGER THAN ME? Why ONLY ME?

I cant believe folks here on PBH think COL call me CHINO because i´m young, which i´m not. IN COL when i tell my COL friend about being called that, they just laugh and say that´s because i LOOK chinese, and they CALL EVERYONE asian CHINO.

I´m NOT offend when stranger ask or call me that, because it´s just another term like gringo that people use as a label. Depending on the context and how it´s said, it could have NO bad meaning, or have bad meaning. I´ve NEVER felt that it was called as a INSULT so i dont take it as one. Only on PBH do people feel the need to defend the use of it with some non racial reasoning, when it´s clearly racial. ALL my COL friends readily admit, that racism exist in COL, they dont sugar coat it or sweep it under the rug. So why do many PBH posters try to sugar coat it?

Racism or prejudice is natural human behavior it´s IN EVERY CULTURE.

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quindioman says on Dec 10, 2005, 06:42:

Caslug yes and no....in the correct form Chino does indeed signify Chinese....to kids growing up in el barrio that couldn't put China on a map chino means kid

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Qubo says on Dec 10, 2005, 07:05:

Kernow62,Dave Chappel i Kernow62,


Dave Chappel is a funny guy...I saw that episode too...man when he took that hood off...everyone was in total shock....is he racist? I would not call him that..He is just poking fun at the ignorance and sad reality that people of color are racist too..

You know what, I find mestizo and mulattos are the worst when it comes to racism..They are trying so hard to emulate the old colonizers demeanor/status that they must work twice as hard to distinguish themselves from their indio and black cousins.. Like, I never new the non-sense and prejudice dominicans(a majority mulatto/black country) had towards their neighbors "haiti"...I never new that when they called my black paisa associate "el haitiano" it was in a negative way. It wasn't until we started to realize that if someone mistakenly told a dominican he/she was haitian it was considered an insult. In reality, some of them look alike and their history intertwine..

Now mestizos are insulted when called "el indio" and would quickly inform you that their great great great etc etc grandfather..LOL was a spaniard...Ok, like the conquistadores had a loving relationship with their great etcetc. grandmother...

To me this is what's keeping Latin America down...racism/classism is so engrained in the heads of most that it hinders for the less fortunate to have an opportunity to advance. Look at my parents country 'brazil'..we are definitely the majority "blacks/mulattos" but the descendants of germans, italians, portuguese "immigrants" take advantage of the mass..and the indigenous are trying to preserve their culture in the amazon..

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Colombiche says on Dec 10, 2005, 09:07:

Desi Que le vamos a hacer
con este chino que en realidad es un chino aunque no le guste! Dizque es un chino gringo que anda disfrazado de japonés o coreano.
Saludes,
Desi

Buena esa Desi, dijiste justo lo que yo estaba pensando.... buena, buena! Ja ja ja.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 10, 2005, 09:08:

Caslug, my wife uses the term "chino" to refer to anyone who looks Asian.

This thread reminds me of my former mother-in-law who was prejudiced against Catholics or Jews. Her four children were married to, yes, Catholics and Jews.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on Dec 10, 2005, 09:24:

My cachaca wife uses chino to mean a kid, but she would also use it for a Chinese or oriental looking person.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 10, 2005, 09:55:

Chino Bogotanos use "Chino" to refer to kids because they're short, like the Bogatanos imagine all Chinese (and other asians) to be.

More to the point, Caslug, they use "Chino" like a lot of older Americans use "Oriental". It's just a catch-all for anyone from Asia.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 10, 2005, 12:43:

Just like everybody from Middle East is a turk. Nobody gets offended,it's not meant as a racial slur. In Cali there used to be a sidewalk café called Cafe de los Turcos. It was always filled with elderly gentlemen from Lebanon, Syria, Turkey...

If you look "Oriental" you're a chino. If you are young "Oriental" then you are a un chino chino. Live with it.

Colombians just love to tease each other and have a funny name for all their friends. They can also laugh at themselves and some of these nicknames are very descriptive and would probably offend a foreigner. I know lots of people in Cali with nicknames like "Avestruz" (a guy with a long, thin neck), "Boquellanta" (a guy with big lips), Mr. Ed (El caballo que habla), "Carepez", a guy with eyes set wide apart etc etc. Me, they just call the "monita" (the fair one)

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Dec 10, 2005, 14:33:

Here in COL i´m NEVER offended when .. someone calls me CHINO. I´m not offend when some little kid come up to me a stares and ask me if I AM CHINO. I say, i´m from Estad Unidos and the kid walks away a little more educated. I´m NEVER offend when something is spoken in ignorance, i only get pissed if people say it with malicous thoughts. Here in COL i´ve NEVER heard it said with malicous intent.

I am MORE OFFENDED HERE ON PBH, when posters who NEVER met me, try tell me that COL are REALLY calling me a KID(CHINO). I think i´ve heard enough racial words in my life to tell the different when it´s spoken in a racial context. Most of my COL friends use the term Muchachos or Chicos for kids, i´ve NEVER heard them call me or a kid CHINO. I´m NOT saying it´s ISNT use to describe kids, but when it´s use with me, they DEFINTELY mean CHINESE.

I have ANOTHER gringo that is ALSO asian here in COL, he´s lives and works here for the past 2 yrs, NO ONE at his work or his circle of friends EVER call him CHINO. But yet, when he´s out on the street people call him that ALL THE TIME. He´s not offended either, because they don´t said it in a bad context. He plays with them, because when they do, he acts shocked and starts yelling, ¨donde? donde?¨, jumps around and looks while yelling that. He has fun with it.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 10, 2005, 15:26:

caslug, take a "chill pill". I'm just teasing you with this chino stuff. I'm a little surprised, though, that you didn't know that "chino" is slang for a young person in B/tá and surrounding areas.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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KOMACHI says on Dec 10, 2005, 15:47:

WRONG WRONG Y'ALL WRONG

Please read the original topic by QUBO.

When he arrived to the restaurant he said it was empty, he also said he was craving for a burger I suppose he skipped lunch and went to eat lunch late or at unusual hour since he arrived the place was empty.

I guess you definitely dot look like regular black people in Colombia, even if you do, at the time you went to the restaurant they were probably were doing the cleaning before lunch, after lunch, or any other rush restaurant time.

I did this type of job, and how annoyed I was when cleaning and I had to serve a costumer (QUBO said the lady who looked at you bad was in the back (probably doing side jobs))

I didn’t care the color or nationality, it really pissed me off to mix side job and serve the tables at the same time.

2nd IF is a MC DONALDS look like place, where in the hell QUBO in United States tell the cashier to bring the tray all the way to his table? He will get his ass slapped.

in a fast food place there is no such as bus-boy or server, it is a fast food chain and if I was the cashier at the moment I would probably looked funny at him too. Obviously regardless of his color.

Now what it really pisses me off is that people here even came with the topic of us hating Mexicans ad bla bla, the gringos come up with their frustrations from back home saying things as black in here are this or that....

Bullshit, racism is kept inside. QUBO did not behave properly in a fast food place, or maybe QUBO has inferiority complex.


(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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KOMACHI says on Dec 10, 2005, 15:59:

i read again AND
IT IS A F&^%$ fast food restaurant!!! why you left a tip! you just made a foul out of yourself.
if you have so much class why you didnt go to parke la 93 to eat fancy burgers instead of making the poor lady think you foreigners are nuts?
what a disgrace behave like nuts like that


(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

(^-^)/ ...como quiero a mi chinita y a mi Colombia carajo!!!...

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kernow62 says on Dec 10, 2005, 17:06:

I believe it is fool, not foul in this context. ;-)

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fugdis says on Dec 10, 2005, 17:47:

not nice i believe it is not nice to correct other peoples spelling,it makes them feel foulish and is definitely not coul.

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kernow62 says on Dec 10, 2005, 19:54:

It is not nice to call people a foul either. ;-)

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cam0940 says on Dec 10, 2005, 20:29:

Just to poke in on the topic:

1) We're assuming that the OP's burger joint fiasco happened in the U.S., but I did have some questions. I'm not sure what kind of fast food place brings the food to the table. I've had food brought to my table in several fast food restaurants in Colombia, but the OP said he wasn't in Colombia when this happened. So who knows? I know that if he was in the U.S., you almost have to expect poor service in a fast food restaurant. He's a grown man though, and I assume he can identify racial prejudice when directed toward him, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I find it hilarious that a minimum wage working fair skinned Colombian immigrant would have the audacity to discriminate against someone who's making probably at least 5 times her income without a loud ass polyester uniform, a nametag, or working on holidays. Which leads me to point #2.

2) Should we be surprised that there is racism in Colombia? I mean, we're talking about a country where people believe in witchcraft, superstition, where people think that you'll go blind from reading on a treadmill. Obviously we're not talking about the most educated group of folks. Oh, the bashing will start, I'm sure. Fine, bring it on. But for some of the dumb shit Colombians do and believe, should we really be surprised that some actually believe that one person is superior to another because of the color of their skin? There was a time when the majority of the world thought the planet was flat, till we found out better. There was a time when Southern doctors tried to proclaim that Blacks and Whites were not of the same species, till we found out better. And so, it's possible that some of these Colombians in question are just ignorant, and haven't come up to a 21st century level of thinking yet. It has nothing to do with political correctness per se, just being ignorant vs informed. Take caslug. Anybody with any sense knows that China, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, the Phillipines, Vietnam, and we can go down the list, are all different. To group them all together and just say "chino" is idiotic and something you would never do if anyone ever sat you down and showed you where each country is on a map and even a little bit of each country's history. Different languages, different food, they all look different, different names, different music, just on and on. So to call all of them "chino" just screams "I'm geographically and culturally illiterate and can't be expected to know anything about anything outside my barrio." And you deserve to be looked at and treated that way for saying some dumb shit like calling a Japanese person Chinese or vice versa. As for me and racism in Colombia, I just laugh to myself at fair skinned paisas turning their nose up to me. I make in one year what it would take a well paid Colombian 10 years to make. Not saying that to brag, but just putting it in perspective. Oooh it makes them mad to know this dark skinned negro, who's supposedly inferior, earns more than their entire household combined. Pretty much blows a hole in their theories.

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kernow62 says on Dec 11, 2005, 07:55:

Why is it always reduced to how much one earns whenever an American talks about their superiority?

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Qubo says on Dec 11, 2005, 08:29:

Ok,

Komachi, I said I was in the USA when this happened..and I left a tip because there was a Propina bottle next to the cashiers register...tranquilo chino...

Listen, It was my first time going there and I wasn't sure if they(servers) were supposed to bring our trays to the table..Yes, this is the states but in colombian restaurants they usually bring your food to the table..

Anyway, I went to the restaurant again last night along with my brothers..geez the food is great better than last time..a had camorrones con tostones..and my brothers tried the hamburguesa..food was great..OK, just to clarify..Everyone went up to get their food..another customer thought the servers were going to bring the food to the table as well but la senorita just dropped the tray on the counter and called out the number.LOL...She just has a nasty attitude period...LOL.. Besides, the guy that served me the other day recognized me and we exchanged salutations..told me he was happy to see me again..and went on about how did I like the food..Cool guy..Pues, it was alot of nice women in there this time...when my brothers and I started to speak portuguese the cashier was like ..hermanos..que estan hablando..hahhah..LOL..

listen, I think one should not deny that racism exist in colombia and the rest of latin america..where doesn't racism exist... Well, I think this will be my new spot..even though that ONE girl is just a nasty person..rude..

Thanks everyone for participating and expressing their views...whether we agreed or not it was a good topic and something we shouldn't sweep under the rug..

Que estén buen...

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cam0940 says on Dec 11, 2005, 08:32:

Because one common denominator in both countries is capitalism. In that case, if I were inferior, the tables should be turned. I should be the one in the polyester suit serving them, if the theory was correct. Instead, 90% of colombians don't even qualify to be a client of mine, much less do what I do.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Dec 11, 2005, 08:45:

what was it that Gabriel García Marquez once said...something in the line with "let us live through our medieval age in peace...)

Once again, we've come full circle and there's no way anybody could go any further on this beaten path. The 21st century in USA has it's own set of values and ideologies that not all the people could or even wanted to share. There's no place stranger than your neighbor's brain.

Cheers,
Desi



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Colombiche says on Dec 11, 2005, 10:42:

Wait a minute Cam..... My friend, did you happen to write your comments when you were in a rage? I don't recognize the Cam I know.

I am one to come forth and admit my country's shortcomings when I see them. I even elaborated on how I see racism and classism in Colombia. It does exist. I would be an idiot to sweep it under the rug.

But I would certainly hesitate to lump most Colombians in the geographically ignorant pile. I still firmly believe that Colombians, on average are - if not fairly educated - at least bright and inquisitive. And sorry to say, but when it comes to geographical savvy, I doubt the US and Canada are at the top of the class (please refer to my post about education in Colombia). Don't confuse deeply ingrained classism (which is the cancer of Colombian society) with being plain illiterate (93% of Colombians are NOT).

I can't believe you would write something so condescending. I second Kernow when I ask, is earning power the only claim to cultural superiority?

I worked as a cashier at a local supermarket for 4 years to pay my way through university. I had to stand there taking crap from ignorant clients who yelled at me, and treated me very badly in some cases. Most times, I would run out of school at 5 pm to make the 6 pm shift until 10:30, go home, do some homework and get whaever sleep I can get. I am inferring that if you had come