PBH / colombia (travelguide, pictures) / post

The hostage story is not the whole truth

I don`t buy the story that they (Ejercito Colombiano) had their guys infiltrated in the camp (supposedly just a few weeks/months ago) and then convince the 'Comandante César'' to enter the helicopter to convince him the operation really was to take them to the camp where Alfonso Cano is.
I don't buy it. The farc has never used helicopters to take the hostages to new sites. How can it be that César would not verify with Cano or others that this is the mission. No way!
I am sure César has been bought by the government. Remember they offered 500 million US Dollars a few weeks ago?
I guess they went there, told César that they obviously know the coordinates of the camp and that if César would not accept what ever they offered him they would bomb the camp just like they did with the Reyes camp. So I guess he accepted. There are NO images of him in captivity in the media. Apparently he has been taken prisoner at the Tolemaida Air Base. Where are the images? Is he already in the US with the 3 gringos?

from http://www.caracol.com.co/nota.aspx?id=625469:
"Teníamos un infiltrado que le dijo al ''Comandante César'' que se subiera un poco (al helicóptero) para darle más confianza, para que sintieran que la operación era válida y genuina y eso fue, y lo neutralizamos ya estando dentro', señaló Santos."

By jonas on Jul 2, 2008, 19:42 in Friendly Talkzone.

jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 19:42:

bump

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 19:49:

bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

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aztec says on Jul 2, 2008, 19:50:

Just who is this late to the problem guy?

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 19:54:

Come on, you guys really believe these guys let their "crown jewel" hostages go easy like this? First time a helicopter lands there and they just put their most valuable hostages on board to have them flown out? hahaha There must be more to the story than this.

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aztec says on Jul 2, 2008, 19:58:

jonas are you out of your frigging mind?

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Lisa Zee says on Jul 2, 2008, 19:59:

Go smoke your dope somewhere else!

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:00:

So where is he (César) then? Where are the images? Wouldn't you show him like a trophy?

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:01:

Jonas, what is the point? Whatever else there is to the story is irrelevant. They were either tricked , or paid off, either way it shows a systemic weakness on the FARC's part. Cynicism is not always a good substitute for intelligence.

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:03:

The point is that I am SICK and TIRED that the media/politics never tell us the truth.

I let Uribe have his trophy, no doubt. But cannot they for once tell us the truth???

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:06:

Every Govt has secrets jonas , fact of life , Live with it.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:06:

The point is that the media and politics NEVER tell us the truth. How shall we ever trust them if they always tell the stories they way the profit most? I am sick and tired of this.

I absolutely congratulate the Ejercito Colombiano for their success and welcome all the hostages to freedom. I also hope the other hostages will be freed soon.

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:08:

Why would they want to divulge all their operational secrets, they might need to use them again. To quote Nicholson in a Few Good Men, "you can't handle the truth" jeje.

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:08:

Jonas? I think I read there are approx 700? Is this true?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:09:

Live with it? Like my grandparents who were German?
Live with it like the Irakis living Bush?
You gringos should really learn to not accept everything and insist in the truth.

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:10:

700 is what they say. In the camp today they left behing 50something I believe.

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:11:

Sorry, not gringo, also not first time you were wrong tonight.

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:11:

BB "Why would they want to divulge all their operational secrets, they might need to use them again"

Get outta my head! I was thinking the same when I read the article and it said

"The pilots, she said, were posing as members of a relief organization, but "they were dressed like clowns," wearing Che Guevara shirts, so she assumed they were rebels"

I agree - I hope the media does not overdo and give out too much info

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:12:

I have been part of Govt operations and what they tell the public and what really happened are no where near the same but the cover story allowed us to catch many more bad guys. I'm sorry we forgot to call and tell you, Jonas , the truth of the operation. You do not need to know all nor do I or anyone for that matter.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:13:

Jonas....uh ..BB is not cringo jeje

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:13:

It just goes to show how close the relationship between some of these ONGs and the FARC has been, that the dumbfok guerrilleros swallowed it.

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:14:

So where is he (César) then? Where are the images? Wouldn't you show him like a trophy?

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:15:

Maybe he took the money and is headed to spend his money.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:16:

billyb according to your parents neighbors you are "el gringo"

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:17:

Eywed "I have been part of Govt operations and what they tell the public and what really happened are no where near the same but the cover story allowed "

Good to hear that you feel Betencourt was de-briefed before the media interviewed her. But I still think this was too much info (sorry). They should put a lid on the media - even if it is "misinformation"

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:18:

"Wouldn't you show him like a trophy?"

That would be undignified, we leave that kind of circus to Mr. Chavez and his lapdog Cordoba. Maybe Ceasar was paid off, so? If it got the hostages released without a single life lost, what is your problem with it? or are you just in mourning that it happened at all?

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:19:

How do we know it was not misinformation CG .

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Lcacique says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:19:

Another fact is that the government and the media have had little time to go over the operational tactics that were employed (and, as stated above, the gov't might not want to show its hand). Frankly, as billyb has stated, who cares? The only thing that matters is that several hostages are now free (and hey, nobody was hurt in the process).

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:21:

How do we really even know that this Happened when it did. Hell they could have been saved yesterday and debriefed last night.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:21:

billyb maybe you can read what I said above:
"I absolutely congratulate the Ejercito Colombiano for their success and welcome all the hostages to freedom. I also hope the other hostages will be freed soon."

And now please give me one reason why they would hide him now?

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:22:

"billyb according to your parents neighbors you are "el gringo"

????, then again, why would you start making sense now.

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:22:

Witness protection program Colombian style Jonas. That work for ya?

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:23:

and eywed has another good point. They looked surprisingly good considering they just arrived from years being tied up to trees in the jungle. When did this happen?

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:24:

"And now please give me one reason why they would hide him now?'

Why don't you tell us, since you seem to know something the rest of us don't.

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:24:

I dont know , I dont need to know and i'm happy. Their home. Period!!!!!

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:24:

Lcac: "The only thing that matters is that several hostages are now free (and hey, nobody was hurt in the process)."

Wasn't that incredible!! Absolutely incredibe! I was amazed when I read this! Excellent job!

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:25:

" jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:21: flag

billyb maybe you can read what I said above:
"I absolutely congratulate the Ejercito Colombiano for their success and welcome all the hostages to freedom. I also hope the other hostages will be freed soon."

I'm sure Chavez will make a similar statement, and I'll believe him equally.

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:25:

Ok I better go.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:25:

eywed sure works for me. I just wanted to make my point. And as usually get eaten alive by the Bush allies that make PBH such a poor place it has become.

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jonas says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:27:

billyb was this to free the hostages or to show Chavez who is better? I guess you go with the latter since you probably dislike Ingrid anyway. You probably would say anyways. But that word does not exist.

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:28:

I know we should celebrate and be happy...but I am still sad to hear there are 700 other out there. That is an incredible number folks. But yet they get this small higher profile group. good job, but still...700. hmmm

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:31:

Bush allies, Thanks for seeing that in me.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:35:

Jonas, the former, but with the added benefit of the latter. Why is it bothering you?

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tejasmarcos says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:40:

good point, CG. lets bring home the rest now....

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Lcacique says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:46:

Your way off jonas...I am certainly not a fan of Bush. Nor am I a huge fan of Uribe. Nevertheless, I have no reservations in applauding the man and the Colombian military for an excellent job.

Too many people on this site jump to one side or the other. That is too bad. While this is an extremely happy moment, it is a little depressing (though absolutely expected) that so many want to utilize the event to spit on those who do not agree wholeheartedly (or at all) with their side. The simple fact is...this is a great moment for Colombia.

CatGirl, lets hope that this event will be the beginning of more good things for Colombia. Maybe the others will be released sometime soon.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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CatGirl says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:49:

Yes, I hope ...this was very sad to me when I read it. I had no idea the number was that big. I have a horrible feeling that some are not alive (for different reasons).

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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eywed says on Jul 2, 2008, 20:52:

Many that are listed as being held by farc are kids who were taken and made to become farc members. I'm sure some are dead as well . I wonder what the true numbers are. In any case 1 is too many.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jul 2, 2008, 21:52:

"You probably would say anyways. But that word does not exist'

Jonas, I'm very proud of you that you know the english language so well, and do you know why that is? Because germany lost both world wars to ENGLISH speaking countries.

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huskie says on Jul 2, 2008, 22:41:

Yeah Jonas, shut up, you do not know what the hell -you are talking about, another radical commie
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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huskie says on Jul 2, 2008, 22:43:

Jonas sabe tanto, que sabe a m****da
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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huskie says on Jul 2, 2008, 22:45:

That is a Paisa saying, BTW
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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webmanco says on Jul 2, 2008, 22:48:

El fin justifica los medios.

Funny thing is that many "se comen la historia completica"

I am as well glad for the release of the captives, but I think as Jonas, there is more to the history, maybe as usual it is not wise for all of us to know the real true, Billyb and others will get a reality check later on, when books come out telling somehow part of the true.

Meanwhile we celebrate.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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ColombianoGringo says on Jul 2, 2008, 22:50:

Here are some more minor details according to the Miami Herald. Supposedly, the military started a fake helicopter company that had been offering services to the farc for a while. If true, this could help explain how the guerrillas could be tricked into transporting the hostages in this particular helicopter.

http://www.miamiherald.com/457/story/592155.html

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Lisa Zee says on Jul 2, 2008, 22:51:

The #$)&% FARC guerrillero is in jail, maybe tide up to a tree, who cares?.
I told you this troll is smoking some weed or something.

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS

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goin_south says on Jul 2, 2008, 23:01:

"i.m.p.e.c.a.b.l.e".......
..............................EXPENSIVE! 500 MIL?

Ingrid dice: Gracias Señor Uribe!

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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huskie says on Jul 3, 2008, 00:00:

Disrespectful... to the one that just saved her life? I think so!
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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MitchAlvarez says on Jul 3, 2008, 00:04:

Un Gran Dia para nuestro pueblo.

Un glorioso dia para nuestro presidente.

Un maravilloso dia para nuestra patria hermosa que tanto ha sufrido.

Presidente te apoyamos 100%

Vos sos un berracoooooooooo!!!!!

"Ingrid callate la jeta!! Stay in France"

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jack_jason says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:18:

Jonas, I understand very well what you say. Probably the only one here who understand you. I would like you to check the following link. They will help you to see the reality:

http://www.london-counselling-psychotherapy.co.uk/?OVRAW=Psychiatrists...

Please do not thank me.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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gringoloid says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:22:

jonas is just doing some truth seeking here.............all of you may be surprised at what turns up about this affair in the next few weeks. in the meantime, lets hope that the rest of the secuestrados are released soon.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:24:

speculations speculations, everytime something big happened people always look for the dark side
J F Kennedy
Princes Diana
John Lennon
Raul Reyes

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jack_jason says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:28:

I think Elvis Presley is still alive and living somewhere in Argentina.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:50:

lol Jack

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billyb says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:52:

Loid, web et al, it's not that we think we know the whole story, it's just that it doesn't matter. What is so hard for you guys to understand about the hostages being rescued without anybody harmed being a good thing? So what if it later turns out that they were bought? So much the better, it just shows how willing the FARC is to sell itself out. Of course if it makes you guys feel smarter to act cynical and pretend that you are members of the secret society of the all-knowing, well, good for you. Myself, I will just relish this moment for what it really means, and that is freedom for 15 people.

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Timba says on Jul 3, 2008, 05:58:

It is (political) theatre for the masses

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billyb says on Jul 3, 2008, 06:02:

wow, didn't know we were graced with so many deep and cynical thinkers, thanks for that timba.

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bamacellist says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:03:

Argentina?!?! Pardon me... haaaaardee har haaaaaaar! You deserve all Kat's scorn! He's spotted all the time in south Alabama.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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Gator says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:22:

Jonas said, "The point is that I am SICK and TIRED that the media/politics never tell us the truth."

The world won't save itself, after all – not without the fount of all that is good and wise and smart and cute, which is to say, Jonas. Never forget that an answer to a question Jonas has asked should always be regarded as a personal attack if the answer is something he does not don't like.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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romy says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:31:

So a government lying to its people is no foul?

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dwmte7 says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:48:

i've asked it in a zillion other threads...wtf does 'bump' or 'bmp' mean? help>

dwmte

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dwmte7 says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:49:

gator??? does not don't like? hmmmm

dwmte

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Gator says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:56:

On some threads people write the the work "bump" so it will jump the post to the first entry-does not work here.

dwmte7 says on Jul 3, 2008, 07:49: flag

gator??? does not don't like? hmmmm

dwmte

Gator says hmmmmmm? Which careful readers will note is two "mm's" longer then dtmte's hmmmm.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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tasco66 says on Jul 3, 2008, 08:02:

Jonas, are you saying that Ingrid lied about her account of the story?

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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bamacellist says on Jul 3, 2008, 08:34:

Romy, I tend to be an absolutist but in a case like this it is easy, for me, to see there are lines which establish that there can be an acceptable kind of governmental dissembling, as well as areas where it is still equally unacceptable.

This was, whatever all the facts are, an operation that hinged on intelligence, manipulation and secrecy. This was also an operation that will precipitate further consequences that have to be anticipated and managed.

Take, for example the announcements some weeks ago that the government had been contacted by Farcsters who were interested in trading Betancourt for their freedom. It's plausible they were a fabrication designed to lend credibility to the order to gather the hostages for movement while providing the added benefit of creating mistrust amongst the Farc. I don't have a problem with this idea and here is why: It would have been information that only really affected decisions and actions of the Farc, not the population at large and it would have been clearly within the context of executing a bona fide function of the state, maintaining national security. Not one or the other, but both of these conditions are met.

A reason the government might choose not to reveal there had actually had been cooperation here (IF, mind you!) is to avoid diluting the appearance of the military's prowess and to maximze the amount of insecurity and instability this event might inspire. I don't have a problem with this, for the same reasons stated above.

Sowing insecurity and doubt within the enemy is a vital part of any war strategy. It's what may eventually bring about the oh-so-hoped-for negotiations some people keep clamoring for. In these scenarios, the general population is hearing the disinformation, but it really has no bearing on them. So, yes, in some cases it is, IMO, a valid and permissible thing for the government to issue false information. Indeed, there may be no harm and therefore "no foul".

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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webmanco says on Jul 3, 2008, 08:39:

Somewhere down the line both parties won Goverment and Farc, wheter only a handfull of the lattest got some benefits. IMHO it was more negotiate than anything else, who would put all his golden eggs in just one nest? just thing about it.

I just wish for a peacefull July 20th and forever after. Or maybe O drank too many pilsens.

Now many would say who cares what went under the table, the results is what matters.

When you know what in reality went under the table, you could prepare for future events, without knowing it we just keep going "manipulated" as in politics.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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Buongone says on Jul 3, 2008, 09:50:

Top Secret. You think the Military is going to give up their secrets, just because somebody on PBH or the outer world wants to know. Forget that. In the US, that's called going to Leavenworth.

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jonas says on Jul 3, 2008, 09:51:

You should have watched the news show "La Noche" with Claudia Gurisatti. She asked pretty much the same question in last nights show.
And to those calling me "another radical commie" maybe some day you will brighten up.
You may call Claudia Gurisatti the same I guess but than maybe you should learn about her story first. Don't be so fast in judging people. I did not try to judge here, I am just looking for what really happened. If the truth does't matter to you than that's your thing.
Thank you.-

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huskie says on Jul 3, 2008, 10:09:

Douglas and gator: JAJAJA, like I always say, you are so fricking funny LMAO
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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jonas says on Jul 4, 2008, 11:52:

It seems the truth is coming to light. Apparently 20 mio US$ have been paid.

With the military, politicians and such now swearing there was no money involved I believe they are not lying. The usual procedure in this kind of operation is to pay the money to some "humanitarian" organization for other causes and no money is handed over for hostages. This way at the end they can claim no money was paid to rescue the hostages.

Whatever the case I am just happy they are free.

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CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 11:55:

About the OP - I guess would not be suprised if this is true. Could spend years trying to think of all the angles...either way, all is done and over with. If true, kitty is not at all suprised.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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eywed says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:04:

Jonas , Mccain took the money down to Colombia himself, Thats why he was there. Seems you believe anything you read that fits what you want to hear. You dont know what really happened nor do any of the rest of us and WE do not need to know everything. And thats ok with me. Try and take a step back and look at the big picture.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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romy says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:06:

explain the "big picture"

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eywed says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:08:

15 people were freed and did not sleep in the jungle last night. Pretty simple.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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jonas says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:10:

What do you mean I believe anything I read? When I posted this nothing was written on the subject, anywhere.
Maybe you can explain to me what you mean with the big picture, I am all ears.

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romy says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:12:

there's a bigger picture... 700 hostages, poverty, etc. you can read elsewhere if interested

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:14:

Jonas, that was my first reaction too...how much, who paid and who took the money.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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jonas says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:15:

I never said I criticize anyone if a payment was made. We had a different thread on this a few weeks back I believe. Read above, I said myself that there are about 700 left but that I am happy that at least 15 have found freedom.

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eywed says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:19:

Great point Romy, 700 more hostages. But we got to start somewhere. I never thought that the price of one hostage should out weight the price of another. Everyone is a person who deserves to be home where ever that may be. Romy we can zoom the view on life to what ever size we want. My point was maybe the Govt need to lie from time to time for much better things to happen like just maybe working on getting some if not all of the other hostages home.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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tasco66 says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:22:

I think people fail to make the distinction between political and economic hostages. There are few political hostages left (26 is the highest number I have heard). They stand the best chance to be freed now.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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