"The general and his labyrinth"Mierda About To Hit The Fan?

SiV says on Apr 15, 2004, 19:42:

Para- Militar links Was going to say that there was a good article about Uscáteguiin last week´s Cambio magazine, but the article above said this anyway.Hope the s**t does hit the fan, though, as like this years´ recommedations from the UN for Colombia state, the links between the military and the paras are still strong, and not enough is being done to sever them.
For those that are interested in this subject, there{s a good (although shocking) report on this by HRW: "The Ties that Bind":

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=colomb

It´s also availble in Spanish.

SiV

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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SiV says on Apr 15, 2004, 19:44:

Also .. . . . .there´s another article on the subject, "Justice Denied".

http://hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=colomb&document_limit=20,20

SiV

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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Sam Salmon says on Apr 15, 2004, 20:16:

I'd say this General is as good as dead-it happens all the time.

New prison guards one night-a lone assasin enters the cell-bang/bang/bang.

A few people lose their jobs (while receiving a fat severance under the table from 'private sources') and lots of other people breathe easier.





' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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asmith says on Apr 15, 2004, 22:14:

The General Very interesting, this guy needs protection, we need to know much more and others to verify his information. For many many years Latin American politicians and Generals have been allowed to milk the cow of the United States, yes we have allowed it for many reasons. I believe it will go on for longer than your life time, but then again everyone is hungry for the yankee dollar, are they not?

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vladimiro says on Apr 16, 2004, 14:41:

The Massacre at Mapiripan In 2002 a Colombian reporter won the International Press Freedom Award for his coverage of the massacre at Mapiripan...

"After he investigated a 1997 massacre in Mapiripan, in which 67 people were decapitated, Gomez reported in 2000 that the Colombian military officer accused of masterminding the crime had been accompanied "at all times" by a dozen U.S. military trainers. He also linked the massacre to paramilitary leader Carlos Castano."

http://www.american-reporter.com/2,328/737.html

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/ipf02/gomez.html

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 16, 2004, 20:56:

Question about this incident Weren't a bunch of people already jailed over this incident? I wasn't following Colombian politics closely 7 years ago when it happened, but I seem to recall reading that a number of the parties actually involved in this massacre lost their jobs and were sent to the big house. This general, if I read the Cambio piece correctly, isn't accused of participating but of lies of ommission to cover it up.

Anything that breaks the ties between paramilitary and military is great by me but it seems this dude has a number of ulterior motives to his claims. If he were really so interested in revealing the connections shouldn't he have done it long agao?

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SiV says on Apr 19, 2004, 16:00:

re Question about this incident Well, obviously the man´s primary interests are saving his own skin, with any altruistic aims of spreading the truth and fighting corruption falling way down the list. But, if the truth comes out, are his intentions important.

As for Mr. Smith, you have a very limited understanding of how US foriegn policy works if you don´t think there´s a higher price and an ulterior motive for milking this Yankee dollar. . .I think most Colombians remember the short change given in return for selling off Panama; 25 million Yankee dollars. Not a bad deal for Uncle Sam, eh?
SiV

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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vladimiro says on Apr 20, 2004, 10:50:

Panama The good thing about the loss of Panama was that it was a big slap in the face that woke up and united the Colombian leadership, which as you say was busy fighting amongst themselves. Panama was Colombia's richest province, even without the Canal, serving as a heavily traficked land route for goods going to and from North and South America. For this reason there was some discontent from the Panamanians who contributed far more money to Colombia than its other provinces. Bogota was almost inaccessable those days with all the montains and no infrastructure, and in some provinces the central government was thought of in the same way as the old Spanish viceroy in Lima, Peru. But there was no sign that the Panamanians would break away from Colombia; they did not support the "revolution", and Colombia could have held on to Panama with little resistance. Loosing its richest province was a great loss, but at the same time united a fractious people, and became a defining point for the nation.

I think the $25 million was paid to Colombia long after the event when the Colombians decided they would be better off to normalise relations with the US.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 20, 2004, 11:39:

Your mention of a land route Do you know if there are highway or railway routes in operation today? Every time I read about one of these around-the-world car or motorcycle trips, invariably the Darien Gap comes up and the authors resort to putting their vehicle on a barge.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 21, 2004, 22:32:

Darien Land routes There's still not a road across the Darien. It's a pretty dangerous place as a result of smuggling and a serious rebel presence.

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vladimiro says on Jun 9, 2004, 17:13:

More Info The special edition of Semana that was just published, "50 dias que cambiaron la historia de colombia" has articles on the 50 most influential events in Colombia's history.

One article covers the Panamanian Railroad. It served the same purpose as the Panamanian Canal and was built in 1855. It cut 15K Kilometers from Pacific-Atlantic travel and provided Colombia with its main source of income. Money from Panama was used to build more railroads and infrastructure in Colombia.

This edition of Semana has another related article called "La Mayor Perdida: Las heridas abiertas cuando Colombia perdio su departamento estrella aun no se cierran"

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junior says on Jun 10, 2004, 09:55:

united states-colombia military ties.... the initial contacts between colombian and united states military personnel in the early twentieth century were less auspicious for the development of future relations. although the settlement to the war of a thousand days was negotiated aboard a united states navy ship, relations between the two countries soon soured when pres. roosevelt,spurred by the colombian senate's refusal to ratify a treaty for the construction of a transisthmian canal across colombian territory, took advantage of a rebellion in colombia's northernmost department to achieve his goal. panama declared independence on nov 3, 1903.

colombia's resentment against the united states was only partially assuaged in 1922, when the united states govenment agreed to pay the colombian administration the sum of us$25 million for the loss of its territory.

during the 1930's united states-colombian military contacts were re-established under somewhat more favorable, though no less disconcerting, conditions. in 1932, on the eve of the leticia conflict, the first united states naval officer was sent "on loan" to colombia to assist with plans for the defense of the country's ports and with arms purchases. when fighting erupted, the united states...which then had advisors in colombia and peru...briefly found itself supporting both sides in the war. the officer sent "on loan" resigned his commission in 1934 but continued privately to serve as an advisor to the colombian navy. in 1938 the first united states navy mission was sent to colombia. following the german invasion of poland in 1939, formal contacts between the colombian and united states armies also were established as plans were formulated for the overall defense of the panama canal.

i state this so as to give a better understanding of foreign policy priorities and of the importance of short memory vs real politik aspects of social science dynamics....as one can see in this example, colombia and the united states are now allies in this historical time frame....3 decades later...people live and die...and so do the events...what makes good foreign policy today was inconcievable years ago...it appears to me that some writers on this link refuse to let go of past historical events, they no longer serve as factors in the formulation of foreign policy...i pose this question...what exactly comes into play when a foreign policy is being formulate?...who are the people involved in the formation of foregn policy?

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junior says on Jun 10, 2004, 10:11:

united states-colombia military ties... although colombia had remained neutral in WWI, the government supported the allies both prior to and during WWII. in 1940 colombia allowed the united states to construct and operate air and naval bases on its territory, thereby providing a strategic position for defending the western approach to the panama canal. colombia also nationalized german holdings in the country, ordered the departure of all german nationals, and authorized the operation of a counterespionage network that was maintained by officials at the united states embassy and the consulates located throughout the country. in late 1943, following the sinking of several colombian cargo vessels by german submarines operating in the caribbean, colombia formally declared war on the axis powers.

memory grows faint between WWI and WWII, by the 1940 the united states and colombia are now partners with similar political interests with complicated implications...the nationalization of german holding is no less as egregious as the united states involvement in the independence of panama. should colombia reinstate german holdings?

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junior says on Jun 10, 2004, 10:40:

united states-colombia military ties... although the PC had critized the nature of colombian-united states ties during WWII, the relationship between the armed forces of the two nations remained strong after the PC assumed power in 1946. colombia continued to maintain a military representative on the inter-american defense board, an organization established early in 1942 to provide for hemispheric military cooperation and collective defense. colombia also was among the first latin american countries to send personnel for training at the united states army's school or the americas, which opened interestingly enough in 1949, panama. short memory? the amount of postwar united states military assistance made available to colombia, initially under the mutual defense assistance act and later under the mutual security act, also continued to rise. in 1951 colombia became one of the first countries in latin america to sign a military assistance agreement with the united states, which made the country eligible for receipt of grant aid. between 1950 and 1964, colombia received the fourth greatest amount of united states military assistance in latin america, after brazil, chile, and peru.

it is important to note that during this time period, communism was taking hold in south america, which has led to the conflict today. marxist politics is of greater concern than the past historical transgressions of the united states which are no longer a consideration in foreign policy. consider china's growing influence in panama politics, cuba, venezuela and in other parts of the world. does this deter united states foreign policy with china? how does economic interests influence conflicting political idealogies?

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junior says on Jun 10, 2004, 12:00:

united states-colombia military ties... in 1950 colombia's cooperation with the united states military changed form after the newly installed administration of laureano gomez castro decided to support the united nations (UN) sanctioned police action in korea. after being refitted for combat by the united states navy, the frigate,ALMIRANTE PADILLA, the premier vessel of the colombian navy, carried out coastal patrol duty for the multinational task force in korea. colombia also provided 1,000 troop army infantry battalion. the battalion was assigned to a united states infantry regiment, and colombian troops fought alongside united states soldiers. tghe colombians remained in combat service until the commencement of the panmunjom armistice negotiations in july 1953 and returned home in nov 1954. of the 3,089 colombians soldiers who served in korea, 131 were killed in combat and 448 were wounded; 69 men were classified as missing in action. noncombatant casualties included 10 dead and 162 injured.

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junior says on Jun 10, 2004, 12:06:

united states-colombia military ties... during the korean conflict, both domestic and foreign critics accused the colombian government of being a united states puppet. the gomez administration found pragmatic as well as political reasons, however, for sending colombian troops abroad. in addition to earning the favor the the united states, colombian troops were trained and equipped with united states material at no cost to the colombian regime. the colombian military kept the equipment upon returning home. the troops also gained valuable combat experience, which they used to help put down the rural fighting, then bordering on guerilla warfare, that in the early 1950s represented a serious domestic problem.

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junior says on Jun 10, 2004, 12:20:

uscategui's military implications.... uscategui's comments will be given the obligatory diplomantic observance, then he will go away...foreign policy exist in a vaccum...the political cost is too great, considering china's growing influence in the regions...consider panamanian law number 5 articles 2.1, 2.8, 2.12a, 2.12i...

uscategui's behavior is not new to politics at any level...be assured that this was taken into consideration...before any action was taken...journals attempt to influence foreign policy as well as sell newspapers...but they are important players in the formulation of foreign policy....

who influences foreign policy? current and former political leaders
journalists
embassy workers
military representatives
informed private citizens

note that private citizens are those who understand economic and political mutual interests, the importance of future considerations of any foreign policy in relationship to the rest of the world...regardless of one's personal feelings...the world is global in its effect on private citizens...

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vladimiro says on Jun 10, 2004, 14:42:

Those Evil Germans 1) The history book I read says the nationalized German holdings were primarily the airline now known as Avianca. It was feared the owners' loyalities might lie with the Fatherland and no one wanted to risk German pilots bombing Caribbean ships or the canal.

Those German-Colombians had immigrated to Colombia long before the rise of NAZIS and there was no evidence that they would do any harm simply because they were of German ancestry. I am sure there were more Colombians and other latins, like the Peronistas of Argentina, that were far more sympathetic to NAZIS than these enterprising German immigrants.

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odioman says on Jun 13, 2004, 18:56:

mr smith, I would have thought that the USA was a great wolf bitch, from whose tits we all suck.

"it is important to note that during this time period, communism was taking hold in south america, which has led to the conflict today".

And this is the great tragedy of south american politics. The US would have championed south america, however the leadership of these countries, the people who shared a common interest with the majority of people, were opposed their vesion of capitalism. Thus the US installed puppet regimes whose developmental objectives had more in common with the already vested interests of multinationals, and minority elites.

In comparison, look to south east asia. The US supported regims there that completely changed the social order, take taiwan, or korea for instance. These states got the same aid, and access to the US market. They differed with the latin cone in that they had concrete developmental objectives, and look at them now. They form the hub of international capitalism.

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