The Economy Grows But....

dwmte7 says on Oct 18, 2007, 14:02:

PRECIOUS LORD, desi, we been going over this sad reality on a number of threads and it still holds true...'trickle down' doesn't work below the 'haves' in society. and especially so in the third world. nothing is gonna break the status quo there in colombia. sometimes i think that the only black in buena ventura who owns a car is the senador from that area. and his reputation proceeds him. in 19 years, i've seen nothing rise up there. pity.

dwmte

Grateful Dead says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:13:

If Colombia ever gets serious about putting an end to the civil war they are going to have to put together social programs for these people, those small pueblos are fertile breeding grounds for FARC recruiters. Some one some day is going to have to explain the politics of this civil war to me, there seems to be something that I am missing here.

vicshere says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:16:

isn't civil war the wrong term......isn't it self driven individuals with selfish goals who whole a whole country at ransom

listo

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:26:

The only thing that ever trickles down to the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder is shit.

Grateful Dead says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:28:

"The only thing that ever trickles down to the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder is shit."

Not according to Newtonian Physics my friend

vicshere says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:32:

do you mean what goes up must come down???

listo

Grateful Dead says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:39:

"An object is in motion when its distance from another object is changing.Whether the object is moving or not depends on your point of view. For example, a woman riding in a bus is not moving in relation to the seat she is sitting on, but she is moving in relation to the buildings the bus passes. A reference point is a place or object used for comparison to determine if something is in motion. An object is in motion if it changes position relative to a reference point. You assume that the reference point is stationary, or not moving."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_(physics)

Grateful Dead says on Oct 18, 2007, 15:40:

Gabish ?


lol

dwmte7 says on Oct 18, 2007, 18:09:

yo dead...theory is like wind. the reality, is...what? that shit flies by at the same speed im moving by? shit sticks==to the closest object==unfortunately, that, in colombia is the poor. only water seeks out the low places that men despise. nothing else...not even shit and LORD knows that there's plenty of the brown legubrious muck in transit downward...the saving grace, is only water...nothing else;;;reaches bottom...it's not much, but compared to shit, it is a 'better'. that ain't no body's quote, rather, the observation of a false-toothed, gray-haired old would have been economist that realized that such a career was a waste; and as a result of such luminescence pushing into my psyche, i decided to just do what i do, and nothing more.

and a small taste more while were on the subject...the rich in colombia--or whereever--are never gonna get serious. especially when it would require up-leveling those who they've so long enjoyed being below them...economically. it's a priviledge they'll hold onto until some one squeezes the last breath outta their selfish, condescending bones. now i know this sounds like i'm condemning these folks. on the contrary, i'm not. i have way to many rich friends in colombia to spend my time judging and condemning them. still, that doesn't mean i'm blind. my ex wife used to point out--referring to me--that a fox may change his hole, but he NEVER changes habits. it applies so well to me, a dalient, cavelier old chap. and it certainly applies to my rich friends in colombia.

dwmte

Grateful Dead says on Oct 18, 2007, 19:00:

"yo dead...theory is like wind"

Unfortunately Physics is not "theory" it is Science which is fact.

"shit sticks==to the closest object==unfortunately, that, in colombia is the poor"

Not really shit "sticks" right? so it can stick upward, that in colombia is the rich ,




only water seeks out the low places that men despise. nothing else...not even shit and LORD knows that there's plenty of the brown legubrious muck in transit downward...the saving grace, is only water...nothing else;;;reaches bottom."

Yes but think of "equation" both are equal in value and mutually interdependent,you can not have something descend that has not already been above.

..it's not much, but compared to shit, it is a 'better'. that ain't no body's quote, rather, the observation of a false-toothed, gray-haired old would have been economist that realized that such a career was a waste; and as a result of such luminescence pushing into my psyche, i decided to just do what i do, and nothing more."

that's your trip I can't help you with that.

"nd a small taste more while were on the subject...the rich in colombia--or whereever--are never gonna get serious. especially when it would require up-leveling those who they've so long enjoyed being below them."

That is capitalism. the product of a free market system, up- leveling the ones below would require the system to work under a communist doctrine.

"economically. it's a priviledge they'll hold onto until some one squeezes the last breath outta their selfish, condescending bones"

basic human desire to gratify the senses, even the poor among the poor act out among selfishness.

"sounds like i'm condemning these folks. on the contrary, i'm not. i have way to many rich friends in colombia to spend my time judging and condemning them. still, that doesn't mean i'm blind"

show me who your friends are and I'll show you who you are. Species run in numbers.

"a fox may change his hole, but he NEVER changes habits"

I sure know a lot of ex dopers ......etc


"t applies so well to me"

that's your trip I can't help you with that


"nd it certainly applies to my rich friends in colombia."

are they really your friends ?



lol

dwmte7 says on Oct 18, 2007, 19:17:

i have to wonder if the above are questions, ennuendo, or prognostications.

do you show your self, your self by knowing so many ex dopers. that wasn't clear. are they who you are or did i not get the gist of that?

and what exactly is it that's 'my trip that you can't help me with" i wasn't aware that i had sought help on any of my comments/observances above.

if you are in need of clarification as to whom is or is not a friend, that, my friend, "is your trip and i can't help you with that."

dwmte

dwmte7 says on Oct 18, 2007, 19:22:

symantics, is wordmerchantry...it gains nothing, and goes nowhere. while the intellectuals banter about their this's and that's , the poor remain hungry and dispossesed.

see if theory/physics and arrogance fills a stomach.

dwmte

vicshere says on Oct 19, 2007, 06:54:

GIB your comments leads back to my comments on the HSBC thread.....the workers need to get out of the deep rut

listo

dwmte7 says on Oct 19, 2007, 07:38:

one of my friendly detractors noted that "shit" sticks to the rich as well as it does to the poor.

hmmmm. it don't seem that what's sticking to the dispossed poor in buena ventura is the same that's sticking to the folks in poblado, or for that matter, casa narino. sometimes i think our pbh family bretheren seek descent for no more than the lucha. not to advance or clarify issues. pity you tell em, gib. "those who live in glass houses...............

dwmte

Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 19, 2007, 07:45:

GIB - Saint Ronnie would not have 'paid a decent wage,' i.e. have the govt decide what a decent wage is. He would have said the market is best qualified to set wages, so let the market do its work.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2007, 08:19:

GIB, I don't entirely disagree with your critique of how the estrato system serves to ghettoize parts of urban Colombia, but, sadly, I don't think it's the root cause of dismal 3rd world poverty, which you can see around the world in places with no such system.

Re. "Trickle down economics" it's probably worth noting that David Stockman, who was the patron saint and chief advocate of the theory under the Reagan admin, later disavowed it as largely nonsense. I think a better analogy is the "Rising tide floats all boats" one, but that, of course, presumes that everyone has a floatation device.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 19, 2007, 08:29:

Ancient Chinese Wisdom: Never trust a man that cuts his own hair. David Stockman and Bud Selig (the baseball dude) are two well-known examples.

Morrongo says on Oct 19, 2007, 08:37:

Would not disagree with GIB or Vicshere on both their comments.
What the hell can you do in Choco or Buenaventura until there is confidence to invest in those areas.No shortage of labour but a great shortage of investors as these places are in broiled in the conflict of drug running and the varies groups that are attached to it.Also the government have fallen far short in rebuilding their infrastructure and creating a climate of change in those locations.Even with the conflict over, Choco is always going to be a poor area ,its remote setting dictates that.In Buenaventura ,Exito are building a large Supermarket on the fringe of the town,things are moving and confidence is improving slowly.
Governments can't create wealth alone, but can make sure the correct wages are paid and protect the workers rights.Also they can provide the climate for growth. Not an easy task by any means in these locations at present.
Any tickle down at the moment is spit on a hot plate.

dwmte7 says on Oct 19, 2007, 08:59:

quite surprised to hear about exito opening a store in b.v. as for insurgent activities, i was there originally in the 80's and there was none of it then and it was the same pathetic poor folks and environment that it is now. sure, some change, but not much. those poor are really poor. i felt the first time i was there that i was back in lagos nigeria...just a bit worse.

i don't even think it would help to sack the representative from there as corrupt as he is. who wants to invest there, in what, for what reason/gain. sure the improve the muelle, but that does not help the poverty...just more help to the rich. wages don't go up, infrastructure doesn't get built, health care doesn't materialize, ad nauseum. it's the same story there and around the world. the status quo doesn't change until the 'haves' choose it to change, and i don't see that on the horizon anytime soon.

dwmte

robi666 says on Oct 19, 2007, 09:02:

You can say what you want, but the minimum wage is growing above the inflaction level. Not much at all, but anyway, making it grow more would just do one thing: more poor people without a job.
I also don't see where the estrato system does something else than taking more money from the rich to help the poor, like an indirect tax. There are ghettos anywhere, with or without an estrato.

Do not get me wrong, I know and see how Colombia lacks of a mid class. And the distance between the poor and the rich. We are still living in a third world country, but, if you want to correct the situation fast, there's just one way: the Chavez way. In case you did not notice it, Uribe's government is for free market. That means going slow.

It is a race between the cities of the interior producing enough wealth and to fight the corruption of the political class of the underdeveloped areas vs. the poor people developing enough rage and conscience to take the power.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

pedro says on Oct 19, 2007, 10:01:

Already mentioned in the HSBC thread -- why not limit working hours to 40 or 45 hours per week? And enforce the minimum wage. This would hopefully drive more job creation.

There comes a time when you have to recognise cultural factors. Why are Bogota and Medellin improving, and the coast isn't? The coast will keep treading water, never moving forward.

Certain places (remote villages etc) may just not be viable, economically. People need to recognise that, and move to locations with jobs.

So, in certain locations -- would the last one out, please turn out the lights?

¡save pow wow!

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2007, 10:05:

I think one of the problems, Pedro, is that the Colombian justice system can't manage to even adequately enforce the laws against kidnapping and murder, so it's a little much to expect the government will be out there efficiently enforcing minimum wage violations next month.

pedro says on Oct 19, 2007, 10:06:

They can enforce traffic violations in the cities. Especially when it involves revenue raising via fines.

This suggests they can enforce the minimum wage, if they choose.

¡save pow wow!

vicshere says on Oct 19, 2007, 10:12:

pedro I think your on to something.....some people on here have said how bad and slow some or many of the services are in Colombia...maybe just maybe the people are over worked ...where one person is doing the job of 2 people or they get sacked......like maybe bank workers and office workers.....hey I am not saying they are the most intelligent people...but even if they are working extra hours while others have no job....that would affect the economy for sure..as for remote area in Colombia....most areas really have to get with the times....this is where the central government could make a big difference and bring technology and investment to these areas.....with crop being able to grow year round....I can believe why some of these areas are poor

listo

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2007, 10:33:

Then there's all the people who "have" jobs and are getting paid but don't have to show up for work. But you have to be someone's cousin to get that kind of job.

Just curious, since when did they effectively enforce traffic violations in the cities of Colombia? It's total pandemonium on the roads of Bogota most of the time and it took freakin' MIMES to get people from just running red lights.

morphus says on Oct 19, 2007, 11:23:

Its time for a socialist revolution in Colombia. The poor have to uprise and strip the rich of their wealth. Then there will be no more arrogant smiles, fancy dress or extravagant parties in Colombia.

Colombiche says on Oct 19, 2007, 11:24:

Yeah, what you will have is all the rich mofos taking their money out of colombia, closing their industries and business and running off to Miami.

then you will end up with a country where everybody is equally destitute. There will then be NOTHING trickling down, not even S at #%.

Kind of like where Venezuela is going right now.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

morphus says on Oct 19, 2007, 11:28:

They did it in Cuba. A lot of Cubans that arrived in Miami lost their money. Some regained their fortune again. I guess they had business smarts.

Colombiche says on Oct 19, 2007, 11:33:

Then look at all the poor, lower class immigrants who crossed the border up north. Years later, generations later, many of them are still stuck in a cycle of poverty and ignorance and they are still in the periphery of society.

Wealth is in the head. That is why the rich are rich. Because they have been around money, they were taught how to make money.

The poor are poor because they are stuck in a vicious cycle. They were taught money is something they don't have, will never have. They don't have money to begin with and when they do get their hands on it, they don't know how to manage it.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2007, 11:34:

I guess they had suitcases full of cash and offshore accounts.

Morrongo says on Oct 19, 2007, 12:59:

robi666 says.....Do not get me wrong, I know and see how Colombia lacks of a mid class. And the distance between the poor and the rich. We are still living in a third world country, but, if you want to correct the situation fast, there's just one way: the Chavez way. In case you did not notice it, Uribe's government is for free market. That means going slow.

Absolutely spot on.....slowly slowly shake a monkey......Things are improving

Grateful Dead says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:04:

"the Chavez way. In case you did not notice it, Uribe's government is for free market. That means going slow."


The Castro way didn't work what makes you think The Chavez way will?

Man Tequila says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:07:

Think you missed the point? He seems to be saying the Uribe way (slow free-market reforms) are better than the Chávez way.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

Grateful Dead says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:08:

"one of my friendly detractors noted that "shit" sticks to the rich as well as it does to the poor"

"hmmmm. it don't seem that what's sticking to the dispossed poor in buena ventura is the same that's sticking to the folks in poblado, or for that matter, casa narino"


Mr. Martin , that is because you fail to see the bigger picture, you are only looking at a small
time based part of what in reality is infinite.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:46:

Mr. GD, I'd advocate caution before getting into what seems like pissing match with someone who has forgotten more about Colombia than you'll ever know.

And especially when talking about looking at "a small time" considering that Doug has spent about 30 years in Colombia.

Grateful Dead says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:55:

"with someone who has forgotten more about Colombia than you'll ever know"

Who would that be ?

Man Tequila says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:56:

I think GD is trying to be philosophical. But if reality is infinite, everyone is only looking at a small time. Pásame la botella.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

Grateful Dead says on Oct 19, 2007, 13:57:

By the way Mr. Martin's a good ole boy , he can take care of himself.

pedro says on Oct 19, 2007, 14:24:

They enforce fines right now in Medellin. Pico y placa, licence checks etc.

Hell, put the guy in uniform on a 2% commission of fines collected, like they do with the train ticket inspectors in Europe. It can be done, if they want to get serious about it.

¡save pow wow!

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 19, 2007, 14:45:

Pedro, you raise an interesting point. I guess what I mean is that they may be enforcing traffic "fines" but they're having virtually no success at enforcing the "rules". They're just out there taxing people for breaking the rules, but the behavior doesn't seem to be moderated much.

Grateful Dead says on Oct 19, 2007, 15:23:

An incentive to stop having babies like China did would work too.

dwmte7 says on Oct 19, 2007, 15:24:

touche, dead...shit, i been pissed on and i've done the pissing. we all need to remember that nobody gets outta here alive and as grandpa used to say, "....son, the way i see it, is that there's nothing less important in life than the score at halftime." he taught me so much.

i grieve for the rural poor in colombia, as i did for those i worked with in ethiopia, nigeria, senagal, syria, iran and other areas. it's the same. poverty is dreadful..the one difference i've noticed in colombia, at least in the case of paisas, is that they have a smile-at-life attitude that keeps them going in some pretty dredful circumstances. during the cashless era of the late 90's, i was living up in the mtns around llano grande and my friends (not rich) and i would party, a lot, and just smile through it. we were each other's life boat. it's like the good 'ship lollipop' and we're all on board together. during this same era, so many land and business owners there in llano grande--previously rich--found their asses flat broke and having nothing else to do but hang out and party with those they used to look down at. now the playing field was infinitely more level. today, these folks have a great commaraderie that they never would have had, had they not damn near drowned together. a great lesson for all those who rode out those years. the fuckin economy was non existant. we'ld all meet at someone's finca, someone would bring some beef, other's chicken, corn, vegis, and what ever else, and of course the guaro; and everyone brought their kids and the campout lasted for about a week and gave everyone a boost. those who were previously the 'have nots' got the rush of seeing the previous "haves", sucking rocks. and the previous 'haves' discovered that, being on equal footing, their previous lessers were the only friends they had. because the previous rich would still be willing--for the most part--to cut throats to preserve there image of themselves as rich/better a little longer. choking ever so slowly on the shit as it ran up their noses. that being their own shit. another of grandpa's guiding principles, which he placed before the ten commandments was, "...don't shit where you sleep" and "if your gonna drink the water, you damn well better honor the well." thus he.

so friends, we're in this river of potential shit together....lets all take turns at the oars and at the helm. lend a hand when possible and dry a tear when necessary......amen

dwmte

Grateful Dead says on Oct 19, 2007, 15:29:

Thank You for sharing Mr. Martin , I respect you alot based on what you have posted on the board, always enjoy your stories, certainly appreciated.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 19, 2007, 15:31:

Not sure I like the metaphor of life as a river of shit. To each his own, but I'd prefer to think of it as a cruise down a nice, clean river with the occasional sewage discharge pipe temporarily interrupting an otherwise pleasant journey.

dwmte7 says on Oct 19, 2007, 15:40:

well, brother tinto....so would i. i just havent seen much clean water as of late. here, there or anywhere. i mentioned earlier. in my years in colombia, mostly spent in antioquia, i have only drank out of a stream one time. and i've certainly been off the beaten path. but i do like to keep a good/positive attitude towards the experience. back in the acid days, i remember that it just turned out that i had to dedicate my trip to those who couldn't direct/control theirs. it's the same now. i'm always the oldest guy in the groups i move in and that brings with it a certain responsibility.......keeping the show on the road. and as much as i will tell the younger brothers and sisters that everything's fine...it's gonna get better, etc. that doesn't blind me to the realities which surround and confront us all. you and me and g. dead included.

dwmte

juancegomez says on Oct 19, 2007, 16:53:

The thing is, I think the state (and society as a whole) needs to find a way both to actively work towards reducing poverty and to teach the poor how to take care of themselves. Teaching a man how to fish, so to speak.

Setting up a more glorified "daddy state" would certainly make life easier for most of the poor while it lasts, and that in itself is good and justified, by all means....but if we just stop at that, all it does is create millions of children-equivalents in practice, who will slip right back into poverty and unemployment if the state finds that it can't handle that load eternally and decides to turn the subsidizing machinery off during a crisis or two. Or slowly break it into pieces, one part at a time.

The state (again, and society) does need to do a lot more for the poor, but it has to prevent itself from doing *everything*.

I fear that Chavez may or may not be taking Venezuela close to that scenario, if he's not careful and/or the price of oil takes a turn for the worse (possible though I'm not saying when), but I can't state that unequivocally either.

Maybe we need another alternative that isn't just copying Chavez or simply extending the status quo.

A radical change, in the correct sense of the word and not merely toppling one elite in exchange for another through a revolution, might help, but the devil remains in the details...

gringoinbogota: I think that you make more sense now that you've explained your point about the strata system a bit better and described some sort of alternative, but I still think you're placing way too much blame on one factor.

Figuratively speaking, take a time machine back to before 1984 or 1994 (your pick), when the strata system either did not exist or wasn't nationally implemented yet, and see how much better things were as far as poverty and exclusion goes...not really, in fact, due to many other factors unrelated to that system alone.

dwmte7: "i grieve for the rural poor in colombia, as i did for those i worked with in ethiopia, nigeria, senagal, syria, iran and other areas".

You don't need to go that far, just try almost any other Latin American country. We aren't exactly in the brightest neighbordhood, you know.

dwmte7 says on Oct 19, 2007, 17:47:

juan, i've only spent time in panama, mexico, guatemala, venezuela and colombia, and as i said, the paisas (antioquenos) have a smile about life attitude that beats anything i've ever witnessed. they're the greatest. what the news shows about brazil, venezuela and others, leaves me with a horrible, bleak feeling like i felt in coastal choco.

dwmte

Morrongo says on Oct 19, 2007, 18:23:

Hell dwmte you spent time in Choco! Thats a very dangerous location at the mo...makes Buenaventura look like Disney World....it doesnt have the death rate, but a very vulnerable place for a foreigner.

fecherklyn says on Oct 19, 2007, 18:51:

Whow, the BEST thread I have seen so far on PBH. Diverse views fro so many intelligent persons....expressing the thoughts of almost all socio-secteurs. Have you got the time? Read them back and be surprised they are not all necessarily diametrically opposed!

Dwmte, love your contributions.