The Economist: The end of illusion and the last guerrilla

tasco66 says on Jun 18, 2008, 08:07:

Thank you Sr. Presidente for saving Colombia and proving wrong all the left wing PBH posters

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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tasco66 says on Jun 18, 2008, 08:48:

"i thought you you were one of those left wing pbh posters and hated uribe"

What made you think that?

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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tasco66 says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:07:

FARCs brutal legacy is coming to a close after the leadership has been eviscerated and several laptops captured. As the news comes out i hope there is more to share but dont count on any coverage by main stream media, especially if we find out there's been democRats involved along with chavez and the support of the child butchering, drug lords in FARC.

FARC on its last legs?

Rick Moran

That seems to be the consensus among military analysts in the aftermath of the death of FARC Commander and his replacement by a Communist true believer. The move won't sit well with those FARC commanders who have grown used to making a lot of money from the drug trade. And other factors will work to split the terrorist rebels into several groups:

The fallout from the capture of a senior FARC leaders laptop last March continues. Police are investigating leftist politicians for connections to FARC. There is also a long list of foreign "humanitarian" organizations and individuals that apparently were on very friendly terms with FARC. The foreigners, including Americans, deny it, but then they always have

With death of the FARC leader, and his replacement by a communist true-believer, it is believed that FARC will splinter. The pro-drug FARC commanders are not going to give up their drug money. Government counter-terror operations have destroyed the "old FARC" during the last six years. FARC leaders who have surrendered have made it clear that they believe FARC is splitting into independent factions, and that much of the organization has simply been destroyed by police and army activity. A lot of the damage has to do with loss of income in the last six years. Lucrative kidnappings are down 83 percent, and terrorist attacks fell by 76 percent in the that period. Army and police pressure have reduced FARC strength to less than half of what it was in 2002 (when it was about 15,000 gunmen.) Last year alone, 2,480 FARC members deserted or surrendered to the government. The revolution is over, even if some of the rebels have not got the message yet.

The army is seeking better ways to detect and clear landmines. FARC has been increasingly using land mines to protect its dwindling number of bases, and to terrorize civilian populations (into supporting the rebels, or at least not working with the government.) Long term, it will be up to the army to clear the thousands of landmines known to be in the ground in FARC infested territory. FARC doesn't keep very good records of where they plant their mines, which further complicates the clean-up process.

Thanks to some quiet but massive support by the United States, the Colombian government appears to be succeeding in fighting off the FARC guerillas.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:22:

funny propaganda... when can we expect FARC to be done? concrete terms please... how many terms does Uribe need?

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tasco66 says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:30:

"There is also a long list of foreign "humanitarian" organizations and individuals that apparently were on very friendly terms with FARC. The foreigners, including Americans, deny it, but then they always have"

Romy, are you one of them? Sure would not surprise me.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:41:

no... I can't stand FARC

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:56:

romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:22: flag

"funny propaganda..."

Excuse me Romy. Since when The Economist is a sensacionalist paper?

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 09:59:

Since they started writing about Colombia-Venezuela relations and picked a side

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:00:

where`s the side ?
I need glasses ...

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:03:

come on jorge... I thought you said at some point you are a published writer. You better than anyone should be able to tell how word usage is done to pick a side.

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:11:

You know? I guess you can`t differentiate between propaganda and opinion.

Oh! and you can`t differentiate between Telesur and The Economist...

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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billyb says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:16:

It's simple. News is what we agree with and propaganda is what we don't.

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:24:

I actually like the economist for world issues... just can't stand their pieces on latin america, perhaps because their views differ from mine.

what makes this propaganda is that the economist has amassed such respect for itself, and by writing these pieces they abuse the type of following that they have been able to obtain. But sure you can call this an opinion publication in your terms...

what does telesur have anything to do? you're not going back to something that I outright apologized for on this board, are you?

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:27:

So if you don`t agree with someone, is called propaganda?

Didn`t mean to stir that. Please change Telesur for Radio Mundial or Anncol, or likes...

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:29:

"The end of illusion and the last guerrilla" the last guerrillas finished ages ago. this one are terrorist.

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:29:

Jorge, if you want to make an argument make it otherwise I'm done here...

"what makes this propaganda is that the economist has amassed such respect for itself, and by writing these pieces they abuse the type of following that they have been able to obtain. But sure you can call this an opinion publication in your terms..."

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:33:

romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:24: flag

"I actually like the economist for world issues... just can't stand their pieces on latin america, perhaps because their views differ from mine." ... continues...


jorgegdiaz says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:27: edit flag

"So if you don`t agree with someone, is called propaganda?"

what do you have to say?

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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tasco66 says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:38:

Basically Romy is saying that if he agrees with an article, it’s the truth, if he does not, it’s propaganda.

nuff said

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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romy says on Jun 18, 2008, 10:43:

that I like doesn't mean that I believe... that I dislike doesn't mean I don't believe. Likewise there is propaganda from what I like and from what I don't like. For instance I believe Uribe is a paraco, but I'm not going to say anything on buggy's video post because I know it's just propaganda.
billyb made the right point in differeing between news and propaganda, I didn't think I needed to re-establish that premise in the argument...

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Robert Jorge says on Jun 18, 2008, 20:34:

Off topic a little: But where are these FARC scum getting their landmines? Unless these landmines are improvised munitions, they have to have been imported and smuggled in from another country. My gut tells me China, or perhaps old Soviet mines via Cuba?

A lot of Colombian soldiers go through EOD (explosive ordinance disposal) school right here in the panhandle of Florida at Eglin AFB.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Joel y Luza says on Jun 18, 2008, 21:08:

so... I guess it sounds quite simplistic, but a terrorist organization that has lasted 40-50 years, was helped to their knees by simple technology; laptops? I find a bit of irony in that modernization of FARC actually is part of it undoing, or at least shed some light on its operations for the world to see.

I wonder who handles all of their IT needs? Maybe contracted out to IBM? That would be a great commercial for wireless telecom..

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Dolfi says on Jun 19, 2008, 00:49:

As long as social conditions in Colombia don´t change (meaning that the rich start to pay taxes and the state takes action to reduce inequalities) there will be a violent conflict; whether the FARC come to an end or not.

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dwmte7 says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:42:

heh dolfi...where you been hiding?

dwmte

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podborski says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:53:

well I'm probably considered rich by dolfi's standards, and I am paying an absolute fortune in taxes here in argentina.

Please dolfi, tell me if I can run a business in colombia and not pay taxes? how? I'll be there tomorrow...

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tasco66 says on Jun 19, 2008, 12:57:

"meaning that the rich start to pay taxes"

Buggy is now considered a filthy rich for not paying taxes on his French Pension in Colombia, contributing to widen social inequalities. Now that's funny.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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Dolfi says on Jun 20, 2008, 00:51:

Rubito, depends on where you go; there are many places in Colombia where nothing has changed for many years.

podborski, don´t know about Argentina, but what my father in law in Medellín told me is that the rich know how to avoid paying taxes (as they know almost anywhere in the wordl) and the poor don´t have any money to pay taxes, so those who pay taxes are the middle class, i.e. those on whom the development of a country depends.

It should be easy to understand that where there are many people who don´t have to lose anything there will be violence.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 20, 2008, 03:55:

Dolfi, your father-in-law is absolutely right. That's exactly what they do. People with businesses and such have a horde of accountants looking for loopholes and any possible way of hiding income plus make-up expenses to avoid paying taxes. Our accountant had added my deceased father as a dependant on my tax declaration! Stealing from the government is institutional in Colombia, only middle-class that works hard and has retención en la fuente directly from their salaries pay taxes. The ever-shrinking Colombian middle-class has been in dire danger of gradual extinction for a great number of years now, thanks to the economic policies of Mr. Uribe's government and general corruption and fraudulence.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Joel y Luza says on Jun 20, 2008, 04:33:

Desi!
I am sensing a bit of left wing liberalism in your tone? hahaha Hey! the shrinking middle class is happening here, too, Its damned sad that the back bone of countries are getting screw over the worse!!!

I have to say, What I read on here, and then hearing my wife, My first visit to Colombia will seem pretty surreal to me...

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 06:12:

"Our accountant had added my deceased father as a dependant on my tax declaration"

And Desi, I notice you don't mention having stopped him from doing that. Makes you no better than your accountant. The hypocracy of the left is a never ending source of amusement to me.

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podborski says on Jun 20, 2008, 06:45:

So if the rich can find a tax loophole why can't the middle class? They can't read?

It's a myth that the rich do not pay taxes, been debunked 100 times, but the left never bothers with the truth, they'd rather just complain "it's all unfair"

If corruption is the problem, I wholeheartedly agree. Solution: reduce bureaucrats' power.

The left's solution: Increase bureaucrats' power.

And that's why the problem will never be solved.

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 06:54:

It's funny, we have romy talking about wealth re-distribution, but says he can't part with any of his because he has needs, and desi talking about the corruption of the rich, while she has her accountant cheat on her taxes (how many poor children could have been fed with the money she witheld?). Does anyboy see anything wrong with this picture? Like I said a never ending source of amusement ;)

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hongo_joe says on Jun 20, 2008, 07:12:

"the left never bothers with the truth" What a ridiculous generalization.

I am sure Desi can answer for herself, but it is pretty disgusting to take the comment "Our accountant had added my deceased father" which sounds to me like she corrected the situation and twist it into "while she has her accountant cheat on her taxes" The left never bothers with the truth?

Here is an article about people paying taxes in Colombia "Do Wealthy Colombians Pay Their Taxes?" http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/040804cip.htm

It seems that they are paying much more than they used to.

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sloopskipper says on Jun 20, 2008, 07:29:

But, that wasn't Desi's accountant. He didn't need approval from her for what he did with Papa's taxes.

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 07:44:

Ok, so you have classified me as 'left' whatever that means. So for team left, I have to say that team right just makes up assumptions of team left as they see convenient... please make a solid argument if you want to have a discussion. otherwise blabber all you want and I'll stick to discussing topics with people that actually care.

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 08:02:

"which sounds to me like she corrected the situation "

Where does she say she corrected the situation? My point was the she DIDN'T point out that she corrected the situation, so the assumption, until I am corrected, is that she benefited from the accountant's corruption and did nothing about it. If she corrects me, i'll apologize.

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 08:05:

""the left never bothers with the truth" What a ridiculous generalization."

You are right, it is ridiculous, he should have said that they ALMOST never bother with the truth.

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hongo_joe says on Jun 20, 2008, 08:08:

Well she clearly didn't say that she had her accountant cheat on her taxes, as you claim.

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 08:13:

Ok, you are right, maybe that was taking it a little further than needed, but if she didn't have him correct it, she would be guilty of the same corruption she points out in others.

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hongo_joe says on Jun 20, 2008, 08:16:

I agree.

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aztec says on Jun 20, 2008, 10:27:

" thanks to the economic policies of Mr. Uribe's government and general corruption and fraudulence."

Agree the country needs to improve the lot of the small middle class. But, don't understand the above statement. Has he not helped the Country just a little bit? If not might someone suggest some one who has had better success.

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 12:19:

Colombia has beeen plagued with terrible leaders at the key position since the beginning of the country... something we inherited from the Spanish. and them from being the Roman dump... and so on

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podborski says on Jun 20, 2008, 12:33:

I agree, there have been lots of terrible political leaders all over the world over the years, maybe 1 in a 1000 is decent, honest, well meaning.

So my point, again, is, why does the "big government side of the political spectrum" want to make these people more powerful still?

It's absurd.

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romy says on Jun 20, 2008, 12:38:

I believe corruption is one of the first battles that needs to be fought. In the case of Colombia it makes me very happy that issues like parapolitica and farcpolitica are being investigated, though it's a little slow and not thorough enough to be completely satisfied.
I believe people need to be given opportunities to succeed. I don't see who else is going to step up for the people that require the help... One person can't do it by him/herself...I don't have to resources to change the world...like billyb likes to point out

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 20, 2008, 14:43:

I was totally shocked when I read the paper I was supposed to sign. I asked him why and he said everybody does things like that. Of course I made him correct that. I didn't specify it because I thought it too obvious.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 14:55:

Ok, I apologize for doubting you then.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 20, 2008, 15:03:

No hard feelings, billy:)

"So if the rich can find a tax loophole why can't the middle class? They can't read?"(podborski)

You should've read the whole comment. People who work for a salary have "retención en la fuente" or the taxes are automatically withdrawn from their paychecks. It's the people with properties and businesses than can cheat. And they do. It's almost like a sport to see who can fool the government out of their due money.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 20, 2008, 15:09:

Desi, in Locombia if you make less than 25 million / year (2.083.000 gross month, not a labour salary in COL by any means) you get away with no taxes according to my company`s accountant.

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 20, 2008, 15:18:

Ok, that's been adjusted upwards since my time there. We paid taxes on much less money than that. People in Locombia need to start paying taxes on their income, drawn directly from their paychecks like in the rest of the civilized world.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 20, 2008, 15:41:

BINGO !!

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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goin_south says on Jun 20, 2008, 16:14:

I imagine this to be an interesting read, but I have to hit the road for Dallas.
Keep on ... it should be good by the time I make Mesquite ;-)

Where do we go from here?

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jorgegdiaz says on Jun 20, 2008, 19:15:

You are an individual with very ... "unortodox" ideas Rubito

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 19:20:

I agree with rubi, the VAT is the fairest tax, as people dealing in cash, regardless of their economic conditions, have an opportunity to cheat on their taxes, whereas those making a wage have the tax withheld (mainly the dying middle class, as desi so incorrectly put it) and thus carry a heavier burden, also regardless of status. Exempt food and neccessary goods from the VAT and you are basically taxing consumption, which will naturally come mainly from the "despiced' and "dastardly" rich. What could be fairer?

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Robert Jorge says on Jun 20, 2008, 22:44:

If someone doesn't believe the rich, in the US anyway, pay taxes, they live on the planet Voltare. Around 90% of the tax revenue that the US takes in comes from businesses and rich people. (Who created the businesses) How can we lower the taxes of the poor in the US, when we are already paying them rebates and returns larger than their tax contribution? eg: "you pay $100 a year in payroll taxes; you get $500 back in a return; you will get a $600 economic stimulous check .... But you are being over-taxed. I am all for a real "fair tax".

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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billyb says on Jun 20, 2008, 23:13:

With out rich people (or anybody for that matter) risking their capital and using their intrepidness and hard work to start businesses, who would create jobs and wealth? The sandinistas? jajaja. But try eesplainin that to a socialist.

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